Grunge POLL: Nevermind or Dirt?

[Samsara]

Are you being rotten about Rotten Apple, Kattoelox?     

[The Walrus]

Are you being rotten about Rotten Apple, Kattoelox?     

Quite. 

[Cruithne]

Members of Soundgarden and Pearl Jam have also tried to distance themselves from the grunge label too. The artists themselves, particularly the main songwriters, can get precious about getting lumped into a bag with a bunch of other bands they don't feel represent them very well.

Tough. Soundgarden, Pearl Jam, Nirvana and AiC all had way more in common with each other than they did with what'd been the popular form of hard rock/metal for the prior decade and the wider world ended up labelling what they were doing grunge. It might've been something of a misappropriation of a prior existing term for a particular sound but then "heavy" as a label for music meant something different in the 60s than it does now.

[Samsara]

I think what happened was that at first, they did have some things in common -- Seattle's scene was very tight knit, and still is. Everyone knows everyone and has/had played with each other in various groups and projects. But once these bands got established and made albums, they went different directions. AiC was metal, Pearl Jam was more rock, and Soundgarden held out, but eventually became alternative hard rock. Nirvana was changing too. That last song they had was going a more cerebral direction (forget the name of it, on the greatest hits CD).

[bosk1]

There are lots of different criteria we could use to determine where the dividing line is.  I choose to keep it pretty simple:  If it makes me want to vomit, it may be grunge.  If it does not, it likely isn't.

[deggs37]

If it makes me want to vomit, it may be grunge.  If it does not, it likely isn't.

I knew it, Meghan Trainor is grunge.

[romdrums]

I suppose it's enough time now, but... there's another thread here for musicians you don't like because of their personal life.  It's not exactly the same thing, but I thought then and think now that Kurt Cobain was a moderately talented, two-faced (not the right word, but "hypocrite" doesn't really fit either) dick who got lucky, right place right time. 

He didn't want publicity - but his face was everywhere (with those ridiculous white glasses).  "Oh I hate this band and I hate that band" but then tapes would come out of him playing songs from those bands.    "Oh, I'm so progressive" and then he'd say something that was just the same old hate and bias but just pointed in another direction.  "Oh, I'm not going to play my HITS".   Please.    There's a reason that - at least from this aging metalhead from Connecticut - it seemed like there was a tight knit group - from the ashes of Green River came Mudhoney and MLB and Pearl Jam, and Chris was there with Andy and Temple of the Dog, and Greg Gilmore (MLB drummer) playing on the Facelift sessions (Kinney broke his hand at the time) and Layne and McCready doing Mad Season (that almost made my list, BTW)... and yet Nirvana was nowhere to be found, and still aren't to this day. 

Look, Gossard and Ament made NO BONES about wanting to be huge.   Arm/Turner, and Cornell/Thayil wanted to stay pure.  They all three accomplished what they wanted to accomplish (GREAT moment in the Pearl Jam 20 documentary where Gossard and Ament cop to all this and then say "at one point, we had to decide if this was OUR band anymore, or if it was Eddie's; he's a one of a kind and when a guy like that comes around, you hitch your wagon to his star.  Tough pill to swallow, but you do what you have to do."  Paraphrasing of course, but it's a really insightful, and honest, moment), with no apologies or regrets.   Cobain? Oh, I wanted my album to sound like [name drops the coolest band he can think of]; what came out isn't what I wanted, but oh by the way, I'm not giving any of the money back or walking away from it.  Then when they did the record with Albini, they went against their agreement and had REM producer Scott Litt remix it to make it more radio-friendly.  Which is fine, but own it, man.   

Harsh, maybe, but it's how I feel.

You are not alone on your thoughts on Cobain.  I always thought he was a mediocre talent and a charlatan.  He wanted to play the fame game and it blew up on him.  The rush to crown him a genius and a "gone too soon" type always felt media, particularly MTV, driven.  He built up a carefully crafted persona and people ate it up.

[Anxiety35]

I think so too.

On another tangent, for those who love the heavy-as-sludge guitar riffing, amazing vocal harmonies, and overall darkness of AiC's trademark sound, here's another band that was HEAVILY influenced by them in the mid-'90s before also folding up FAR too early after only two albums:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lE4mgDkczck

I had both albums. Thought they were good but I also thought they were a complete rip off of AIC. I viewed the band as a female AIC. If my memory serves me well, the lead singer is married to Tony Iommi. Lead vocalist & drummer did the harmonies. Wonder why they called it quits?

[Stadler]

I suppose it's enough time now, but... there's another thread here for musicians you don't like because of their personal life.  It's not exactly the same thing, but I thought then and think now that Kurt Cobain was a moderately talented, two-faced (not the right word, but "hypocrite" doesn't really fit either) dick who got lucky, right place right time. 

He didn't want publicity - but his face was everywhere (with those ridiculous white glasses).  "Oh I hate this band and I hate that band" but then tapes would come out of him playing songs from those bands.    "Oh, I'm so progressive" and then he'd say something that was just the same old hate and bias but just pointed in another direction.  "Oh, I'm not going to play my HITS".   Please.    There's a reason that - at least from this aging metalhead from Connecticut - it seemed like there was a tight knit group - from the ashes of Green River came Mudhoney and MLB and Pearl Jam, and Chris was there with Andy and Temple of the Dog, and Greg Gilmore (MLB drummer) playing on the Facelift sessions (Kinney broke his hand at the time) and Layne and McCready doing Mad Season (that almost made my list, BTW)... and yet Nirvana was nowhere to be found, and still aren't to this day. 

Look, Gossard and Ament made NO BONES about wanting to be huge.   Arm/Turner, and Cornell/Thayil wanted to stay pure.  They all three accomplished what they wanted to accomplish (GREAT moment in the Pearl Jam 20 documentary where Gossard and Ament cop to all this and then say "at one point, we had to decide if this was OUR band anymore, or if it was Eddie's; he's a one of a kind and when a guy like that comes around, you hitch your wagon to his star.  Tough pill to swallow, but you do what you have to do."  Paraphrasing of course, but it's a really insightful, and honest, moment), with no apologies or regrets.   Cobain? Oh, I wanted my album to sound like [name drops the coolest band he can think of]; what came out isn't what I wanted, but oh by the way, I'm not giving any of the money back or walking away from it.  Then when they did the record with Albini, they went against their agreement and had REM producer Scott Litt remix it to make it more radio-friendly.  Which is fine, but own it, man.   

Harsh, maybe, but it's how I feel.

You are not alone on your thoughts on Cobain.  I always thought he was a mediocre talent and a charlatan.  He wanted to play the fame game and it blew up on him.  The rush to crown him a genius and a "gone too soon" type always felt media, particularly MTV, driven.  He built up a carefully crafted persona and people ate it up.

That's actually around the time I stopped watching/listening to MTV with any regularity; Kurt Loder (who I also loathe) could barely conceal his adoration for everything Nirvana.   

[Samsara]

Stads,

You really hit the nail on the head regarding the dynamic of what those bands wanted. I'd argue Cornell wanted some of that stardom too, however. Regarding Nirvana - never understood the fascination people have with Cobain. He was the worst musician in that band, and as we found out later, not the best songwriter. The media made him the poster child for a movement, and he fell into the trap. He got used the praise, but didn't want to do what was necessary once he was a "star." And then we all know what happened after that.

Pearl Jam is such an oddity. I loved MLB, and still do. And I love PJ's Ten, and most of Vs. After that, to my ears, they completely shied away from what I loved about them, which coincidentally ties into Stone and Jeff's thoughts on Eddie and his direction.

[romdrums]

I suppose it's enough time now, but... there's another thread here for musicians you don't like because of their personal life.  It's not exactly the same thing, but I thought then and think now that Kurt Cobain was a moderately talented, two-faced (not the right word, but "hypocrite" doesn't really fit either) dick who got lucky, right place right time. 

He didn't want publicity - but his face was everywhere (with those ridiculous white glasses).  "Oh I hate this band and I hate that band" but then tapes would come out of him playing songs from those bands.    "Oh, I'm so progressive" and then he'd say something that was just the same old hate and bias but just pointed in another direction.  "Oh, I'm not going to play my HITS".   Please.    There's a reason that - at least from this aging metalhead from Connecticut - it seemed like there was a tight knit group - from the ashes of Green River came Mudhoney and MLB and Pearl Jam, and Chris was there with Andy and Temple of the Dog, and Greg Gilmore (MLB drummer) playing on the Facelift sessions (Kinney broke his hand at the time) and Layne and McCready doing Mad Season (that almost made my list, BTW)... and yet Nirvana was nowhere to be found, and still aren't to this day. 

Look, Gossard and Ament made NO BONES about wanting to be huge.   Arm/Turner, and Cornell/Thayil wanted to stay pure.  They all three accomplished what they wanted to accomplish (GREAT moment in the Pearl Jam 20 documentary where Gossard and Ament cop to all this and then say "at one point, we had to decide if this was OUR band anymore, or if it was Eddie's; he's a one of a kind and when a guy like that comes around, you hitch your wagon to his star.  Tough pill to swallow, but you do what you have to do."  Paraphrasing of course, but it's a really insightful, and honest, moment), with no apologies or regrets.   Cobain? Oh, I wanted my album to sound like [name drops the coolest band he can think of]; what came out isn't what I wanted, but oh by the way, I'm not giving any of the money back or walking away from it.  Then when they did the record with Albini, they went against their agreement and had REM producer Scott Litt remix it to make it more radio-friendly.  Which is fine, but own it, man.   

Harsh, maybe, but it's how I feel.

You are not alone on your thoughts on Cobain.  I always thought he was a mediocre talent and a charlatan.  He wanted to play the fame game and it blew up on him.  The rush to crown him a genius and a "gone too soon" type always felt media, particularly MTV, driven.  He built up a carefully crafted persona and people ate it up.

That's actually around the time I stopped watching/listening to MTV with any regularity; Kurt Loder (who I also loathe) could barely conceal his adoration for everything Nirvana.

Kurt Loder.  Ha!!  He was the engine driver of the "Kurt Cobain is a Rock God!" hype train. 

[deggs37]

Kurt Loder.  Ha!!  He was the engine driver of the "Kurt Cobain is a Rock God!" hype train.

Interestingly, it seems that when Cobain shot himself, he also shot MTV's influence on music. There is a marked difference in how MTV showed music videos as the center piece of the show, to using music as a background to the show. And, slowly but surely, they stopped showing music videos at all. When Kurt Loder cried on the MTV news special announcing Kurt Cobain's death, he may have also been mourning for the end of music videos on MTV, and his career.

[romdrums]

Kurt Loder.  Ha!!  He was the engine driver of the "Kurt Cobain is a Rock God!" hype train.

Interestingly, it seems that when Cobain shot himself, he also shot MTV's influence on music. There is a marked difference in how MTV showed music videos as the center piece of the show, to using music as a background to the show. And, slowly but surely, they stopped showing music videos at all. When Kurt Loder cried on the MTV news special announcing Kurt Cobain's death, he may have also been mourning for the end of music videos on MTV, and his career.

I think that may have been the highwater mark of MTV's influence on music.  Things sort of limped along until about 2000/2001, and then fell off the cliff.

[Anxiety35]

BTW Kurt Loder is 72. Woah.

I remember him being the face of MTV news every 30 minutes during the day. Before the internet was a big thing, that's where we would get our info about music. It was Loder or Tabitha Soren doing the clips. But yes, Loder was the Nirvana guy big time.

To me Nirvana really blew up & got super popular after Cobain's death. Most would say it was the MTV Unplugged show that helped to give them the most popularity. I was in high school when Cobain died. I had Nevermind and In Utero and there was a small group of people who knew who Nirvana were, even a smaller group knew who Kurt Cobain was. My favorite Nirvana song may be "Milk It." When he died in 1994 we were on spring break. When everyone came back to school, Cobain and Nirvana were all of a sudden everyone's favorite. We saw Nirvana shirts everywhere and you would hear Nirvana being blasted in car stereos in the school parking lot.

I remember Dirt being released in 1992. I played football & baseball and I was a part of a smaller group of guys on the teams that listened to heavier stuff. Metallica and Pearl Jam were huge but we were into stuff that wasn't on the radio. Remember, not much in the way of the internet yet so we relied on metal magazines to tell us what was up and coming. Pantera's Vulgar Display of Power was released earlier in 1992 and we loved it. When Dirt came out in September of 1992, it was great too. Dirt had something Vulgar didn't. Slower but powerful, melodic, and dark. The vocals were amazing. We weren't drug guys but the lyrics were transparent and in a way, haunting. I had Facelift already and to me Dirt was an incredible follow up.

Ahh, memories.

I voted for Dirt on this poll. Overall it's a better record than Nevermind, but it's a different record too. I think the songwriting is better and the musicianship is better on Dirt. I just like it better.

[TheCountOfNYC]

Dirt. Nevermind isn’t even Nirvana’s best album (In Utero ftw).

[?]

Dirt easily.

Nevermind isn't bad (albeit overrated), but Nirvana is by far my least favorite band out of the "big 4" of the Seattle sound, because they were more punk-influenced and I've never been into that type of music myself.

[WildRanger]

I think so too.

On another tangent, for those who love the heavy-as-sludge guitar riffing, amazing vocal harmonies, and overall darkness of AiC's trademark sound, here's another band that was HEAVILY influenced by them in the mid-'90s before also folding up FAR too early after only two albums:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lE4mgDkczck

How about Kyuss? Do you dig them? I always thought despite Kyuss were not grunge, Alice in Chains and they had much more in common than Alice in Chains and Pearl Jam or Alice in Chains and Nirvana. Also Soundgarden's Badmotorfinger has many similarities with Kyuss stuff. 

[Zantera]

Dirt easily. I think any of the big albums by the non-Nirvana "grunge" bands takes the cake against Nevermind. Whether it's Dirt, Superunknown (or Badmotorfinger) or Ten.

[CrimsonSunrise]

Wow! Two polls in one day!

Ten by Pearl Jam.

Ten would be the hands down winner!

Of the 2 poll options... Dirt, by a mudslide!!!!   

[jammindude]

I think so too.

On another tangent, for those who love the heavy-as-sludge guitar riffing, amazing vocal harmonies, and overall darkness of AiC's trademark sound, here's another band that was HEAVILY influenced by them in the mid-'90s before also folding up FAR too early after only two albums:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lE4mgDkczck

How about Kyuss? Do you dig them? I always thought despite Kyuss were not grunge, Alice in Chains and they had much more in common than Alice in Chains and Pearl Jam or Alice in Chains and Nirvana. Also Soundgarden's Badmotorfinger has many similarities with Kyuss stuff.

I don't think AiC sounds anything like Kyuss....but a lot of Soundgarden's stuff goes that direction.   Beyond the Wheel in particular could have EASILY been a Kyuss song....and Kyuss didn't even exist yet.    (still in my top 5 SG songs)

[jammindude]

I will give you guys this on the "grunge or not" argument.     I don't think grunge exists post 1990.   So none of you guys are even talking about grunge right now. 

(I'm doing the Frasier thing for humorous effect....we need a emoticon for it or something.)

[Stadler]

Drain STH is pretty good, and (not relevant) I think the singer and the drummer are both model hot, but this picture always makes me laugh, and sort of - to me - characterizes the whole "grunge" movement.  There was a distinct lack of a sense of humor with much of it that kind of ruined it for me.   As serious as Maiden was, and as no-bullshit as Harris and Dickinson were, there was still "Mission from 'Arry" and "The Sheriff of Huddersfield".  I don't really like "comedy" in my music, but to know that the band didn't take themselves so seriously was good to know.   That was really missing from a lot of the "grunge" scene (and a big reason I sort of lost interest in Pearl Jam once they morphed from the "Gossard/Ament" administration to the "Vedder" years). 

[The Walrus]

Wow that photo screams 90s.

[Stadler]

It makes me laugh because they all look so SERIOUS, but the picture just comes off exactly the opposite to me. I've seen pictures of the singer - second from the left - and she's gorgeous, but there?  Just looks funny to me. 

[bosk1]

It makes me laugh because they all look so SERIOUS, but the picture just comes off exactly the opposite to me. I've seen pictures of the singer - second from the left - and she's gorgeous, but there?  Just looks funny to me. 

Well, sure.  But even though I agree with your overall point, in that specific band's...er..."defense," they're from Sweden.  Of course they look pissed off.  And to add to that, having met them, I can say that that is pretty much their "natural look."  Even when they are happy, they look pissed off.

[Podaar]

It makes me laugh because they all look so SERIOUS, but the picture just comes off exactly the opposite to me. I've seen pictures of the singer - second from the left - and she's gorgeous, but there?  Just looks funny to me. 

Well, sure.  But even though I agree with your overall point, in that specific band's...er..."defense," they're from Sweden.  Of course they look pissed off.  And to add to that, having met them, I can say that that is pretty much their "natural look."  Even when they are happy, they look pissed off.

 

I had a server at a beer garden in Copenhagen tell me that Danes and Swedes don't trust Americans because they are always smiling.

[The Walrus]

I have a lot of Swedish in me and I've been told on more than one occasion I look angry when I'm anything but 

[Stadler]

It makes me laugh because they all look so SERIOUS, but the picture just comes off exactly the opposite to me. I've seen pictures of the singer - second from the left - and she's gorgeous, but there?  Just looks funny to me. 

Well, sure.  But even though I agree with your overall point, in that specific band's...er..."defense," they're from Sweden.  Of course they look pissed off.  And to add to that, having met them, I can say that that is pretty much their "natural look."  Even when they are happy, they look pissed off.

I don't know why this matters to me, but were they nice?  I mean as people.   Were they cool? 

[bosk1]

It makes me laugh because they all look so SERIOUS, but the picture just comes off exactly the opposite to me. I've seen pictures of the singer - second from the left - and she's gorgeous, but there?  Just looks funny to me. 

Well, sure.  But even though I agree with your overall point, in that specific band's...er..."defense," they're from Sweden.  Of course they look pissed off.  And to add to that, having met them, I can say that that is pretty much their "natural look."  Even when they are happy, they look pissed off.

I don't know why this matters to me, but were they nice?  I mean as people.   Were they cool? 

Oh, yeah, absolutely.  In fact, I have to share a story about that.  I never really figured out whether the "leader" of the band was Maria or Martina, but the two of them always seemed to be at the forefront and seemed to kind of share the duties of being the face of the band during its brief existence.  The show I saw them at was a smaller festival-type show (the San Jose Beer-fest).  They did an opening slot, and then hung out off the side of the stage before going over to an interview/meet-and-greet area.  Early on in the process, a pair of fans come up to them to talk and to share some pretty high quality fan photos that one of them took.  The guy was pretty small and horribly disfigured due to burns.  And it was kind of cool and touching to see the amount of time and care the two of them devoted to this guy, and you could just see him completely light up.  And progressing through the meet and greet line, I have to say that they were pretty cool and appreciative toward all the fans who came to see them.  So, yeah, definitely "nice" people, at least from my limited interaction with them. 

[Zook]

I have a lot of Swedish in me and I've been told on more than one occasion I look angry when I'm anything but 

Resting bitch face. Apparently I have that, but I'm just tired all the time.

[Anxiety35]

Drain STH is pretty good, and (not relevant) I think the singer and the drummer are both model hot, but this picture always makes me laugh, and sort of - to me - characterizes the whole "grunge" movement.  There was a distinct lack of a sense of humor with much of it that kind of ruined it for me.   As serious as Maiden was, and as no-bullshit as Harris and Dickinson were, there was still "Mission from 'Arry" and "The Sheriff of Huddersfield".  I don't really like "comedy" in my music, but to know that the band didn't take themselves so seriously was good to know.   That was really missing from a lot of the "grunge" scene (and a big reason I sort of lost interest in Pearl Jam once they morphed from the "Gossard/Ament" administration to the "Vedder" years). 

Isn't the singer married to Tony Iommi?

[bosk1]

You already said that.

[Anxiety35]

Oops. That's from the department of redundancy department. 

[bosk1]

  I just thought maybe you REALLY had the hots for Iommi. 

[The Walrus]

I have a lot of Swedish in me and I've been told on more than one occasion I look angry when I'm anything but 

Resting bitch face. Apparently I have that, but I'm just tired all the time.

I think being tired has that effect too. For giggles, I just took out my phone and checked what I look like while normally staring at the computer/TV/etc. - yup, look angry as hell or completely stoned.