Author Topic: So....is listening a skill?  (Read 4743 times)

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Offline jammindude

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So....is listening a skill?
« on: March 20, 2018, 04:43:17 PM »
I brought this up because of something Stads brought up in another thread.

But honestly, if listening is a “skill” (and I believe it is) then it stands to reason that you must LEARN how to do it, and furthermore, it would be possible to reach higher “skill levels” as you learn more and grow.

I’m not claiming that it is necessarily quantifiable...most likely it isn’t. But I think that claiming that some level of learned skill isn’t involved in really *listening* is ludicrous.
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Online Adami

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Re: So....is listening a skill?
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2018, 04:44:42 PM »
Yes.

Just like running, or walking, or speaking.

Most of us can do all of these things naturally. But we can learn and study and practice to do them much better.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: So....is listening a skill?
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2018, 04:49:46 PM »
So listening to certain types of music may then require a greater degree of skill than others?
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Re: So....is listening a skill?
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2018, 04:51:38 PM »
So listening to certain types of music may then require a greater degree of skill than others?

Oh, music? I have no idea. I thought you meant attentive listening.

I guess listening to music more attentively, being able to notice certain things (etc) might be a skill, as opposed to passive listening. I was referring to listening in general though.

And I don't think "type" of music matters. You can actively listen to any type of music. Complexity would just give you more to distinguish.
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Re: So....is listening a skill?
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2018, 04:53:55 PM »
Of course listening is a skill.

So listening to certain types of music may then require a greater degree of skill than others?

No. One can passively or actively listen to any kind of music. No skill is required to hear music.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: So....is listening a skill?
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2018, 04:54:14 PM »
You mentioned speaking. Wouldn’t most of us admit that those with extremely poor grammar are at the very least “uneducated”?

I was speaking generally and wanting to focus on music particularly. I don’t view them as separate subjects. Listening to music is one of the things that you can utilize the skill of listening in.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: So....is listening a skill?
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2018, 04:55:53 PM »
Of course listening is a skill.

So listening to certain types of music may then require a greater degree of skill than others?

No. One can passively or actively listen to any kind of music. No skill is required to hear music.

I can “hear” my wife, and still not listen. I don’t see any difference just because the subject is music.

Just because I can hear music doesn’t mean I’m listening to music.
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Online Adami

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Re: So....is listening a skill?
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2018, 04:58:38 PM »
You mentioned speaking. Wouldn’t most of us admit that those with extremely poor grammar are at the very least “uneducated”?


Well yes, but there's more to speaking well than proper grammar. In fact, it's not even necessary. Speaking well can involve rate of speech, fluidity, ability to connect thoughts to verbalized words, etc.
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Re: So....is listening a skill?
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2018, 05:03:35 PM »
If we're talking about listening to people, like Adami,  then I have to go with yes. My initial thought was that it was simply a trait that some people possess more than others. My boss is the world's worst listener. Without effort I'm not very good, either. However, if it were a trait there'd be nothing one could do about it. I can listen attentively to people if I think to do it, despite my inherent tendencies.

As for music, that's tough. I'm not particularly good at it, despite loving music a great deal. I can listen to a song I've known for 30 years and suddenly hear what the lyrics are. Or hear a fantastic keyboard layer or drum fill that I hadn't noticed. I'm not honestly sure if that's something I could change or not. I suppose my ability to listen to music is shallow. I drawn to specific bits and then lock in on them, but have trouble hearing the deeper bits. After a while I will, and that's when I really grow to appreciate something. I don't think that's something I could change.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: So....is listening a skill?
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2018, 05:07:38 PM »
You mentioned speaking. Wouldn’t most of us admit that those with extremely poor grammar are at the very least “uneducated”?


Well yes, but there's more to speaking well than proper grammar. In fact, it's not even necessary. Speaking well can involve rate of speech, fluidity, ability to connect thoughts to verbalized words, etc.

 I don’t see anything that you stated here that couldn’t  be applied to music as well.
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Offline Phoenix87x

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Re: So....is listening a skill?
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2018, 05:08:52 PM »
When I was in 9th grade, when my geometry teacher was doing the syllabus on the first day he said "there's a difference between listening and paying attention"

I was one of the few people that noticed he had his middle finger in the air, flipping off the class. Point well taken  :lol

Offline TioJorge

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Re: So....is listening a skill?
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2018, 05:08:58 PM »
I'd say it has to do with the generics and biological lottery as well. If you're born with piss poor hearing, you're obviously not going to be hearing as well as someone that has perfect hearing and has "trained" to listen to quieter sounds to discern them better. Speaking? Absolutely. I'd argue that a man who speaks five languages fluently "speaks" better than someone who hardly has a full grasp on their own. Like Adami mentioned, it's also how you speak that overlays the actual words you're stringing together. I'm pretty loud-mouthed at times since I'm used to yelling over drunken patrons and a band while I'm bartending, and sometimes I'll notice how people mumble and speak softly a lot more than I noticed it before I had to listen to people over a lot of other sounds as well as having to enunciate my words while yelling.  :lol

Music wise...I hesitate to get into because holy shit we all know where that will lead, but without stepping on the ever sensitive toes of others, I'd say it would pertain more to actually sussing out the individual notes of specific instruments being heard and discerned. I've had those moments where I'm listening to a song I've heard a few times before (and sometimes with those bands that use tons and tons of instruments, my example specifically is in reference to The Mars Volta), I'll hear a cool beat underlying the other, more prominent instruments and think how cool it is that you can effectively make yourself hear it over the other instruments if you try. That in itself, I think at least, is "hearing better" to an extent.

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Offline max_security

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Re: So....is listening a skill?
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2018, 05:14:32 PM »
I guess there are different levels of listening for music and speech. Listening to music at a party is different than listening to music for the purpose of learning how to play it for example ( stop , rewind , play on a cassette player ). I suppose listening to speech is the same for me now thinking about it. I need to focus to really understand what you are saying if I hope to retain it.

I was listening to Murders in the Rue Morgue today on the radio and the bass parts under the solo are really cool. I've heard the song a million times over the years but today that section really caught my attention ( Steve Harris was a beast on that early stuff ). So I guess I was in the right state of mind to listen to something familier and perceive something a little different , just to throw that into the mix.

Online Adami

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Re: So....is listening a skill?
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2018, 05:20:10 PM »
You mentioned speaking. Wouldn’t most of us admit that those with extremely poor grammar are at the very least “uneducated”?


Well yes, but there's more to speaking well than proper grammar. In fact, it's not even necessary. Speaking well can involve rate of speech, fluidity, ability to connect thoughts to verbalized words, etc.

 I don’t see anything that you stated here that couldn’t  be applied to music as well.

I have no idea what that even means. In this case you asked about speaking and related it to grammar. I was just clarifying.


It seems you want us to say that listening to certain types of music takes more skill. To what end? I am not sure what your overall point is.
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Offline Harmony

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Re: So....is listening a skill?
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2018, 05:26:51 PM »
To the OP, I believe that listening is a skill and it is a skill one can hone and improve upon.

In high school and college I was very involved in choirs both large and small.  I honestly feel at that time my listening abilities as it pertains to music was at its apex.  Much of it was very likely because while participating with the choirs, not only did I have to pay attention to the music but I also had to pay extremely close attention to the voices around me.  To pitch, to syncopation, to inflection, to breath.  It takes effort and practice - lots and lots of practice.

I'm sure I suck at it all now.  But only because my hearing is for shit and I'm way out of practice.  But I definitely believe some people are born better at it and some people just aren't.  But all of us have the potential to BE better listeners if we want to put in the time and effort.

As far as every day listening, I'd also argue that the more we listen to music the more discerning we become.  That doesn't mean the same thing as saying one band or artist is "better" than another because that is simply a matter of personal preference and taste.

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Re: So....is listening a skill?
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2018, 05:27:18 PM »
Of course listening is a skill.

So listening to certain types of music may then require a greater degree of skill than others?

No. One can passively or actively listen to any kind of music. No skill is required to hear music.

I can “hear” my wife, and still not listen. I don’t see any difference just because the subject is music.

Just because I can hear music doesn’t mean I’m listening to music.

Point taken. But, it doesn't take anymore skill on your part to listen to your wife speak than say, for you listen to my wife to my wife speak. I don't see any difference just because the subject is music.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: So....is listening a skill?
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2018, 05:29:56 PM »
That depends on what she’s saying. She might be telling me something very simple, or she might have to sit me down and explain a much more in depth concept.
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Re: So....is listening a skill?
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2018, 05:31:33 PM »
That doesn't mean the same thing as saying one band or artist is "better" than another because that is simply a matter of personal preference and taste.

That's where I fear The Dude is trying to lead us...back into horse corral to resurrect the poor old bones of objectivity vs. subjectivity.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: So....is listening a skill?
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2018, 05:34:12 PM »
LOL! I’m just trying to invoke discussion that is designed to help anyone and everyone to think outside linear concepts.
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Re: So....is listening a skill?
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2018, 05:36:50 PM »
That depends on what she’s saying. She might be telling me something very simple, or she might have to sit me down and explain a much more in depth concept.

Now your talking about your ability to comprehend what either woman is saying. That doesn't mean you are listening any less carefully, one to the other or that your skill is any less, one to the other.
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Online Adami

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Re: So....is listening a skill?
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2018, 05:38:42 PM »
While there is definitely overlap, the purpose of active listening for people and music are generally different.

For people, we're not really listening for complexities and so forth, we're listening for meaning, subtext, and emotional nuances. With music, it's more about layers, the intricate relationships between notes, rhythms, etc.

Though, as I said there are overlaps. With people you're often listening to repeated motifs, and so forth.

It would be more akin to listening to a whole group of people talking and trying to focus on how what they're all saying works together or focusing on one or two people at a time.

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Re: So....is listening a skill?
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2018, 05:53:21 PM »
One is an attempt to focus on another while one is an attempt to focus on oneself. I find focusing on somebody else as per hearing them is a lot harder than focusing on myself and listening to music.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: So....is listening a skill?
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2018, 05:55:35 PM »
That depends on what she’s saying. She might be telling me something very simple, or she might have to sit me down and explain a much more in depth concept.

Now your talking about your ability to comprehend what either woman is saying. That doesn't mean you are listening any less carefully, one to the other or that your skill is any less, one to the other.

Excellent point.   But then by extension, that would lead me to reason out that one can acquire musical "comprehension"...but, it's a skill. 
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Re: So....is listening a skill?
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2018, 07:43:07 PM »
I think Jammin is on to something, but like Adami said, I think he's trying to lead us to a conclusion as well. 

Lsitening is absolutely a skill.   I've taken too many negotiation classes and endured too much therapy to say otherwise.   But you can apply "listening skills" to just about anything.   I probably use as much of that skill with my 10 month old grandson than I do with some of the smartest people I know, simply because THEIR intelligence helps the communication by "helping" me listen. 

I think Jimmy Page is a musical genius.  He makes it easy to listen to Zeppelin.  For all their bombast, their records are pristine, with wonderful balance, wonderful dynamics and a shit ton of space to let each instrument breathe.  Hell, when you can hear the squeak of Bonham's kick drum pedal (as you can on "Since I've Been Loving You") you know that the recording is top notch.   "Beat" era Crimson is the same way.  Contrast that with mid-Gabriel-period Genesis that is by and large a soggy mess at times, and it gets to be a challenge. 

Personally, I think the genre of the music (or the length of the piece) are not key factors in this discussion. 

Offline jammindude

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Re: So....is listening a skill?
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2018, 07:51:30 PM »
Sometimes people think I'm trying to create objectivity where there is none.   But that's not quite it.   I'm not trying to quantify "intelligence" or "intellect" or "feel" into a mathematical equation for enjoyment of the musical experience. 

I'm trying to say that both "objectivity" and "subjectivity" are themselves linear definitions.   I don't view any of this as being "purely objective" or "purely subjective".    It's a blend of both, and yet it's neither.     There isn't a line, but there isn't NO line either. 

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Re: So....is listening a skill?
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2018, 01:18:36 AM »
Yes, listening is absolutely a skill. Hearing is not the same as listening.
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Re: So....is listening a skill?
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2018, 05:51:11 AM »
That depends on what she’s saying. She might be telling me something very simple, or she might have to sit me down and explain a much more in depth concept.

Now your talking about your ability to comprehend what either woman is saying. That doesn't mean you are listening any less carefully, one to the other or that your skill is any less, one to the other.

Excellent point.   But then by extension, that would lead me to reason out that one can acquire musical "comprehension"...but, it's a skill.

I don't disagree, J-Dude, but in the immortal words of Richard Dawkins, "So what!"

You still haven't established that any particular genre or type of music necessarily requires particular level of listening skill. And even if you do, that's an unfinished proposition, right? You need the listening skill to do what? Identify each instrument? Be able to play the drum parts?

Appreciate or love it as much as Jammindude?

So listening to certain types of music may then require a greater degree of skill than others?

I'll concede up front that you are quite likely to have superior listening skills to me when it comes to music. But even if we had the exact level of listening skill, Super's Ready would still be mediocre to me because... tastes! Who knew?
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 05:57:10 AM by Podaar »
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Offline ChuckSteak

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Re: So....is listening a skill?
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2018, 05:53:11 AM »
Yes. And most people are born with it. They lose it in the course of their lives through addictions, distractions, constant thinking/worrying and an incapability of being in the present moment.

Offline jammindude

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Re: So....is listening a skill?
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2018, 06:01:09 AM »
People are asking for a point, and I feel like they are missing the point.   The point is to engage in discourse that frees the mind.   To introduce ideas that encourage growth.     

Are we as a society no longer capable of breaking down abstract thoughts?   

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Re: So....is listening a skill?
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2018, 06:07:46 AM »
No, you implied there was a point. Again, I quote:

So listening to certain types of music may then require a greater degree of skill than others?

This wasn't in the OP but you wasted no time interjecting it into the original question as a kind of gotcha to Adami. If you want to Trump your way out now, that's fine. We'll drop it. But the original question, by itself, isn't that compelling.

[edit]

Sorry Jammin, that was a bit trollish of me and quite unfair. All apologies! I'll have a nice shower and some more coffee before I respond next time.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 06:20:12 AM by Podaar »
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Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: So....is listening a skill?
« Reply #30 on: March 21, 2018, 06:12:55 AM »
My first interpretation of the question was about listening to music, so I'll give my opinion on that. I don't know if 'skill' is the right word, but it's certainly something which others seem to have a kind of instinct or 'talent' for, and a knowledge of what it is they're listening to. The American composer Aaron Copland wrote a book called 'What To Listen For In Music', and it's fascinating. I still don't have anywhere near the level of 'understanding' of music that he and other musicians/composers/musicologists have, but it did make me realise that I'm not 'hearing' around 90% of what's going on in, say, a Beethoven string quartet.

A similar thing seems to be the case in cinema. I'm constantly amazed how certain reviewers or critics can notice details in films which I simply don't catch. I'm not talking about improbable theories about 'what the film-maker meant by this or that', I mean actual details on screen (I recently watched an analysis video of The Big Lebowski, and the guy was highlighting all the 'subliminal' castration imagery used in the paintings behind Maude when she meets Jeff Lebowski for the first time. I've seen that film maybe 50 times, never even paid attention to that stuff before).

So yeah...I'd say we can roughly call listening a skill, and it's not one I have, though I try to develop it by learning about the things I'm listening to.


(If the question is about listening to people, then yes, no doubt that's a skill requiring empathy, awareness, experience, self-perception etc).

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Re: So....is listening a skill?
« Reply #31 on: March 21, 2018, 07:04:28 AM »
Ah, that's better.

Okay, J-Dude. On the subject of music, I've thought of an argument that illustrates my position.

Take our own beloved Wolfking. He can listen to any piece of Judas Priest music and pick out which guitar parts (rhythm or lead) that are played by Glen Tipton! I can't do that nor will I ever be able to. We can easily say that Wolfking has superior listening skills without any difficulty and that he has spent a great deal of time developing them.

I don't think one is required to have WK's level of skill to listen to Judas Priest.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: So....is listening a skill?
« Reply #32 on: March 21, 2018, 07:15:13 AM »
DM is spot on.

I try to offer arguments that challenge standard thinking. Not out of any sense of “I’m right” or “gotcha”...I challenge others in the same spirit with which I am constantly challenging myself.
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Re: So....is listening a skill?
« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2018, 08:43:00 AM »
My first interpretation of the question was about listening to music, so I'll give my opinion on that. I don't know if 'skill' is the right word, but it's certainly something which others seem to have a kind of instinct or 'talent' for, and a knowledge of what it is they're listening to. The American composer Aaron Copland wrote a book called 'What To Listen For In Music', and it's fascinating. I still don't have anywhere near the level of 'understanding' of music that he and other musicians/composers/musicologists have, but it did make me realise that I'm not 'hearing' around 90% of what's going on in, say, a Beethoven string quartet.

A similar thing seems to be the case in cinema. I'm constantly amazed how certain reviewers or critics can notice details in films which I simply don't catch. I'm not talking about improbable theories about 'what the film-maker meant by this or that', I mean actual details on screen (I recently watched an analysis video of The Big Lebowski, and the guy was highlighting all the 'subliminal' castration imagery used in the paintings behind Maude when she meets Jeff Lebowski for the first time. I've seen that film maybe 50 times, never even paid attention to that stuff before).

So yeah...I'd say we can roughly call listening a skill, and it's not one I have, though I try to develop it by learning about the things I'm listening to.


(If the question is about listening to people, then yes, no doubt that's a skill requiring empathy, awareness, experience, self-perception etc).

Kubrick's The Shining is legendary for that.   The guy  in the dog suit?   

Jammin', you don't have to apologize; I love that you put that question out there (not least of which because I don't have to hijack that other thread to make a point!).   But I liken this subject to politics; people have a need to self-justify.   We as humans are REALLY shitty about being honest with ourselves.  We can all point to conservatives that feel they are morally superior for the fact that they believe in a God.   We can all point to liberals that feel they "are on the right side of history" for the fact that they hold certain political opinions.   I think we probably all know someone like Ritchie Blackmore, who feels that the last "great" composer was Beethoven and he died, what, 50, 60 years ago?  :)   How many people here think that bro-country and rap are not "music"?   That's EXACTLY the same thing as saying "classical music is a higher form, requiring superior listening skills and an elevated intelligence."  Which, of course, is bullshit*. 

I love your question, not because of the specifics of the question, but because it asks us to be honest with ourselves and asks us to be more cognizant of what we say (and how we say it). 

*  There is some evidence that people that listen primarily to classical music generally have a higher intelligence, but there is absolutely no cause and effect relationship that I have ever heard, so there are likely other factors - environment, economics, culture - at play). 

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Re: So....is listening a skill?
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2018, 05:58:56 PM »
I was thinking more about this today....and I was thinking that IMO, the intelligence factor in music is where we are trying to put definitions on abstract concepts.  But there are some things that just cannot be defined in such concrete definitions....but that doesn't mean they don't exist. 

It's like "the flow of traffic"...have you ever stopped to think about that?   What is "the flow of traffic"?   Most of us accept that there *is* such a thing.   But if you were to try and define it in the strictest terms, would it be adequate at covering all the bases?   If you asked 1000 experienced drivers what "the flow of traffic" means, would they all come up with the same explanation?    It seems that we all know what it is, and we all know when some idiot is interrupting or hindering or in some other way messing with "the flow of traffic" but even if you went out and found someone's technical definition of "the flow of traffic", would it be something that everyone would agree with?   Would some people just claim that because we can't define it, it becomes something that doesn't truly even exist?   

EDIT  - and if you think this conversation is about "the flow of traffic", then you're missing the point.   The point is that we have things that *DO* exist in every day life that we cannot pinpoint an exact definition that everyone agrees with....but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude