Author Topic: Electric cars  (Read 2458 times)

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Offline bosk1

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Electric cars
« on: March 16, 2018, 10:21:19 AM »
Anyone have one?  Or done a bunch of research you can share?

I just found out this week that my beater commute car is dead, so I am in the market.  What I was initially leaning toward is picking up an Altima from Hertz car sales.  Most rental car companies sell off their inventories now, and it is a decent way to get a good deal.  As far as I know, Hertz is the only one of them that sells them at below KBB value to try to move them within 30 days (and if they don't move them, they go to dealers).  I had an Altima a few years ago that I LOVED, so it is a good way to get a smokin' deal on a car that I know I will like.

But my wife suggested that I look into electric cars because of my commute, and traffic getting worse in our area (with certain electric cars, you can use the HOV lanes even if you are a single occupant).  With a bit of preliminary research, it doesn't seem like it is worth it for these reasons:  California is kinda crazy in terms of which cars actually get the HOV lane benefit.  The list is pretty restrictive, and for the next few years (according to the most recent legislation), it is limited pretty much to electric only, and not hybrids.  The electrics have a few issues, best I can tell.  They are either really expensive, or have pretty limited range.  A hybrid would have been better because at least that takes care of the range issue in the event you run your battery dry.  Also, inventory is fairly limited, especially on the "used" side of things (I'm not buying new because I determined a long time ago that I refuse to pay interest to a bank and the initial depreciation of a new car makes it a terrible value), so good ones are hard to find.  I think where I am coming down on this is that, right now, the quality and current state of legislation aren't really where I need them to be to make this a good enough deal.  I think we will be there a few years down the road, so maybe when we are ready for our next car, it will be a better option.  But for right now, I am leaning against it. 

But what do you all think?  Anyone have any information to the contrary that might sway me?
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Online Stadler

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2018, 10:33:31 AM »
My two cents only (compiled from working for GE, specifically their division that was leading their development of their fuel cell technology, and having a son that works for BMW as a technician and so services them for a living) but given your restraints, it's probably not the right move.

I would be very leery of buying a used electric car, for the simple reason that the economics aren't the same as a "normal" car, and the pattern - "buy new, sell after four years, or lease for three and turn in so the dealer can sell as a certified used car" - doesn't really work.  Granted there are a lot of "fleet" electric cars that go back into the market, so there's that (sort of akin to your plan to buy a car from a rental company) but when you couple that with the expense and complexity of servicing these cars, I'm not sure that's enough to make the analogy work.  The fuel cell is the heart of the car, and if there is a problem or issue with that, you're looking at a repair/replace that could be 50% of the value of the car. 

According to my son, the technology is there, but it is still VERY complicated, and working on those vehicles is not at all the same as working on a fuel-driven car.  I don't just mean mechanically, but even the system layout and troubleshooting are different.   A fuel-driven car doesn't start, you look in one of three places: spark, fuel, or air.  If you know which one the cylinder isn't getting, you know where to go next.   No such decision tree with an electric car.   So you're basically stuck with going to the dealer (stealer) to get your work done.  That's dollars.   You also have to adjudge whether there are charging stations in your commute to accommodate your vehicle and schedule.

One thing, though:  does California give you any tax break for buying new?   Here in Connecticut, there are programs where it's still upside down to buy new, but not NEARLY as bad as a fuel-driven car because of the tax benefits of buying a certain class of energy-efficient vehicle.   

Offline Nick

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2018, 11:04:05 AM »
I've done so much research on PHEV and EV vehicles that seriously, call me, and we can talk about your options at length, and in California you at least have all the options. CA also gives you a nice chunk of change on top of what you'll get from the federal rebate, and the climate is perfect for the vehicles.

I drive a 2017 Ford Fusion Energi, and even having that relatively small electric motor, it has given me an insane thirst for a car that is always powered by an electric powertrain, the drive is awesome. The biggest thing to look at is if you want to go fully electric and if not, what your daily commute is like/if you can charge at work.

For fully electric there are, honestly, two real options right now. The Tesla Model S, which of course costs a fortune, but is hands down the best electric car on the road right now and by all accounts just one of the best cars period. The Chevy Bolt is a fantastic car that is just smaller and more budget friendly. Before rebates it starts at 35k, and goes up to about 41k, and it does have a lot of great tech, but lacks in two big areas for me, lack of powered/memory seats, and no adaptive cruise control. If those aren't deal breakers for you then you should absolutely consider it. The Nissan Leaf is another option, but the mileage is getting a big bump next year, so I see buying a 2018 model as a really bad idea.

For partially electric I would absolutely love to test drive the Honda Clarity that just came on the market, but there is the Fusion like I have, Hyundai Ioniq and Sonata, and several others as well. Back to the point of the daily mileage, it's good to know that to compare to what the car offers as far as electric mileage to see which might give you the most bang for your buck. But in any case, if you end up doing 50-100% of your mileage electrically with a PHEV you're probably going to break even, especially in CA, and in any case you're doing a great thing for the environment.

Seriously though, just call, I'll talk your ear off.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2018, 11:37:27 AM »
I may give you a call a bit later today, Nick, if work schedule permits.  Thanks for the info.  Unfortunately though, even though this wasn't your intent, I think you actually helped talk me OUT of going electric at this point.  :lol  It's just a factor of economics.  It doesn't make sense right now because I'm probably only going to drop around $15k or so (and am NOT buying new for that reason). 

Kind of at the opposite end of the spectrum from what I posted, I was also looking at 4WD/AWD vehicles because of frequent trips to the mountains and snow trips.  I wasn't really thinking it would be practical at this point in time.  But then someone turned me on to the Nissan Rogue, which has AWD but still pretty decent fuel economy at 25/32.  And I can get a 2017 with 35k miles for under $17k, which isn't significantly over budget.  I'm going to check one out later and see how it feels. 
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2018, 10:42:40 AM »
bosk, hit me up. Like Nick, we have a Plug-in hybrid and it is worth every penny. If you talked to Nick, he'll obviously give you everything you need to know. But email me, and I am happy to give you the detail on what we did and why.
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Offline Nick

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2018, 10:44:31 AM »
The biggest problem for Bosk, as outlined in his last post is cost. Yeah, it's possible to get something used in his price range, but I'd be hard pressed to find a used vehicle I'd fully recommend in that price range that is EV or PHEV. At that price point, if you're keeping efficiency/green in mind, you're better off with a used Prius or something similar.
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Offline Chris Hinton

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2018, 11:24:27 AM »
I would strongly suggest a used Prius for your situation.  I bought a second generation new in 2004 (paid cash, so no interest to the banks!).  It is still running with over 250k miles and I have had no battery issues at all.  My son now drives it and I have a brand new Prius and expect it to last just as long.  From my own first hand experience and everything I have heard, they stand the test of time exceptionally well.

Offline kaos2900

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2018, 01:45:34 PM »
I'm not going to be in the market for a new car for at least 5-10 years (hopefully) but I'm planning on buying a hybrid. Not sure if I could pull the trigger on 100% electric but who knows where technology will be in another decade.

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2018, 01:47:35 PM »
I can't wait until I can buy a pickup truck that gets 500+ miles per charge and has 1500lbs of torque.

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2018, 03:44:42 PM »
I will be in the market for a new car before long (1-2 years). I would really like to buy an electric car. Currently, a used Ford Fusion Hybrid is the leading candidate. However, Stadler's post does scare me a bit.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2018, 03:55:34 PM »
My brief research drew me to the conclusion that the technology just doesn't allow for something that (1) is efficient enough to meet my commute needs or (2) is affordable.  Maybe later.
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2018, 04:07:57 PM »
I just found out this week that my beater commute car is dead, so I am in the market.  What I was initially leaning toward is picking up an Altima from Hertz car sales.  Most rental car companies sell off their inventories now, and it is a decent way to get a good deal.  As far as I know, Hertz is the only one of them that sells them at below KBB value to try to move them within 30 days (and if they don't move them, they go to dealers).  I had an Altima a few years ago that I LOVED, so it is a good way to get a smokin' deal on a car that I know I will like.\

As someone who has rented Altimas from Hertz and beaten the crap out of them, I would really advise against buying a used rental car. I'm not even that bad compared to the rest of my coworkers when beating up rentals.  For some reason my boss loves putting the rentals in park while moving fast.... just for fun as he says.  Reasons like that would make me not trust buying such cars.

Also, here in NJ the electric and hybrids do give access to the HOV lane which would be clutch for me as well, but the price point for these vehicles is still a bit high and the cars are almost all really ugly too.  Something like a Tesla is much more attractive IMO but once again, the price point comes into play. 

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2018, 07:35:32 PM »
I would strongly suggest a used Prius for your situation.  I bought a second generation new in 2004 (paid cash, so no interest to the banks!).  It is still running with over 250k miles and I have had no battery issues at all.  My son now drives it and I have a brand new Prius and expect it to last just as long.  From my own first hand experience and everything I have heard, they stand the test of time exceptionally well.


Work has an '04 Prius with 180k miles on it and still going strong.

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Offline bosk1

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2018, 08:33:18 AM »
For some reason my boss loves putting the rentals in park while moving fast.... just for fun as he says.

Wow.  I really hope he gets caught doing that.
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2018, 09:01:23 AM »
I just found out this week that my beater commute car is dead, so I am in the market.  What I was initially leaning toward is picking up an Altima from Hertz car sales.  Most rental car companies sell off their inventories now, and it is a decent way to get a good deal.  As far as I know, Hertz is the only one of them that sells them at below KBB value to try to move them within 30 days (and if they don't move them, they go to dealers).  I had an Altima a few years ago that I LOVED, so it is a good way to get a smokin' deal on a car that I know I will like.\

As someone who has rented Altimas from Hertz and beaten the crap out of them, I would really advise against buying a used rental car. I'm not even that bad compared to the rest of my coworkers when beating up rentals. For some reason my boss loves putting the rentals in park while moving fast.... just for fun as he says.  Reasons like that would make me not trust buying such cars.


I'm actually amazed you can do that in a modern car, especially one that's an automatic. My 2013 Mini Cooper has a manual transmission, and even in that I'm unable to shift into first or reverse if I'm above a certain speed.

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2018, 11:20:47 AM »
As someone who has rented Altimas from Hertz and beaten the crap out of them, I would really advise against buying a used rental car. I'm not even that bad compared to the rest of my coworkers when beating up rentals.  For some reason my boss loves putting the rentals in park while moving fast.... just for fun as he says.  Reasons like that would make me not trust buying such cars.
Yeah, there's no way I buy a used rental. I'm not all that hard on them, but I still don't treat them the way I treat my own cars (and I'm hard on them). I know that every rental I've driven has rattled like hell, despite having pretty low mileage, and that spooks me.

And you're too young to remember, but LDW used to cost all of a couple of bucks a day and cover everything. That was a really cheap license to destroy a car, or at the very least get it airborne a couple of times.
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2018, 11:37:21 AM »
Stads,

In answer to your question, yes on the tax breaks. There a couple different rebates (in the thousands) for buying new, in addition to the federal tax rebate (which was quite nice).

In reply to your post, the one thing I'd counter with is that my wife's car (which is a plug-in hybrid, so not entirely electric) is 100 percent covered. All the electric motor systems and components are completely covered for the life of the vehicle, and we have an expanded warranty on everything else. So the car is taken care of. It may be a pain in the ass for the mechanics, but for us at least, we're not out-of-pocket for anything on the car except basic maintenance and stuff like brakes and tires.

In addition, because of the gas savings (my wife needs gas once every seven weeks, as opposed to once a week), what we pay for the car (we are buying, not leasing the 2017 plug-in hybrid), factoring in those gas savings, is cheaper per month, payment-wise, than my 2016 plain hybrid. Add in all those tax breaks, and it made total sense for us, as consumers, to get it.

I'm interested to see in a few years what our options are. The goal is for both of us to be on full electric by 2025 if it is feasible in regard to battery life and where the technology is. The thing about the plug in hybrid that I love is that you just plug into a regular outlet at home. No 220 or special line needed. That kind of convenience is a must for us. So if that is available on full electric models in seven years, that's where we're going. If it isn't, I won't mind going to two plug-in hybrid models, depending on what incentives are in play at that time.

Going Tesla could be an option, but we couldn't afford two of them, unless they are in the price range of a Model 3 (and even then, that's a bit more than what we want to do). But again, bringing it to Tesla to charge, or getting something installed in the garage to charge them, just is NOT appealing.

So here's hoping, come 2025, most of these electric or plug-in hybrid models are all of the "plug into a 110 outlet in the garage, be on your way," variety, and are cost effective. Because we are solidly in love with our 2017 plug-in hybrid (again, thanks Nick, as your commentary helped spur our research last year).
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2018, 01:57:27 PM »
As someone who has rented Altimas from Hertz and beaten the crap out of them, I would really advise against buying a used rental car. I'm not even that bad compared to the rest of my coworkers when beating up rentals.  For some reason my boss loves putting the rentals in park while moving fast.... just for fun as he says.  Reasons like that would make me not trust buying such cars.
Yeah, there's no way I buy a used rental. I'm not all that hard on them, but I still don't treat them the way I treat my own cars (and I'm hard on them). I know that every rental I've driven has rattled like hell, despite having pretty low mileage, and that spooks me.

And you're too young to remember, but LDW used to cost all of a couple of bucks a day and cover everything. That was a really cheap license to destroy a car, or at the very least get it airborne a couple of times.

Yea, before my time, but this CKY scene with them destroying a rental car for really cheap was what made me realize as a kid that rental cars are essentially toys to people https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yGDNKRGVC0

For some reason my boss loves putting the rentals in park while moving fast.... just for fun as he says.

Wow.  I really hope he gets caught doing that.

Kind of hard to get caught fucking around with the rental unless you do serious damage, for which he did get busted for putting a dent into one of his rentals recently.  The stupid shit like driving like an asshole on the other hand, I don't know what can be done about that.    It's shit that takes years off a car, but you don't really notice immediatley nor can prove who did it.

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2018, 02:03:35 PM »
As someone who has rented Altimas from Hertz and beaten the crap out of them, I would really advise against buying a used rental car. I'm not even that bad compared to the rest of my coworkers when beating up rentals.  For some reason my boss loves putting the rentals in park while moving fast.... just for fun as he says.  Reasons like that would make me not trust buying such cars.
Yeah, there's no way I buy a used rental. I'm not all that hard on them, but I still don't treat them the way I treat my own cars (and I'm hard on them). I know that every rental I've driven has rattled like hell, despite having pretty low mileage, and that spooks me.

And you're too young to remember, but LDW used to cost all of a couple of bucks a day and cover everything. That was a really cheap license to destroy a car, or at the very least get it airborne a couple of times.

Yea, before my time, but this CKY scene with them destroying a rental car for really cheap was what made me realize as a kid that rental cars are essentially toys to people https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yGDNKRGVC0

For some reason my boss loves putting the rentals in park while moving fast.... just for fun as he says.

Wow.  I really hope he gets caught doing that.

Kind of hard to get caught fucking around with the rental unless you do serious damage, for which he did get busted for putting a dent into one of his rentals recently.  The stupid shit like driving like an asshole on the other hand, I don't know what can be done about that.    It's shit that takes years off a car, but you don't really notice immediatley nor can prove who did it.

I got a rental car in Vegas last year that had one of those things that Progressive uses to monitor driving safety in exchange for a reduced rate. They said it was part of a testing program. The car was something like $8 less per day if I agreed to drive with one of those things plugged into the steering column.

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2018, 02:11:05 PM »
Wasn't aware of such a thing, but if that's the case, for my own personal dollar, I'd do that as well, but honestly for my vacation later this year I have a rental mustang, and I am really looking forward to driving it so for that case I probably would say no to such a device.  Maybe in the future it will be required, but then again, we may not be driving ourselves in the future.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2018, 02:11:46 PM »
For some reason my boss loves putting the rentals in park while moving fast.... just for fun as he says.

Wow.  I really hope he gets caught doing that.

Kind of hard to get caught fucking around with the rental unless you do serious damage, for which he did get busted for putting a dent into one of his rentals recently.  The stupid shit like driving like an asshole on the other hand, I don't know what can be done about that.    It's shit that takes years off a car, but you don't really notice immediatley nor can prove who did it.

I'm not saying he's likely to get caught.  I'm saying I just wish he would, because anyone who is enough of an idiot to be that disrespectful with other people's stuff deserves to get smacked for it.
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2018, 02:17:35 PM »
I agree, and I admit, I beat up the car a bit myself, but nothing like that.  More like drive aggressively, but not purposely damage it.  I'm not that big a of a dick, but honestly, if there were a definition of "person who is a dick" it would be a picture of my boss (and it has nothing to do with him being my boss, his boss part is the least dick thing about him, it's just everything else he finds pleasure in and is self admitting to be a huge dick).

Offline bosk1

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2018, 02:17:41 PM »
Revisiting this:  So I ultimately DID end up buying an Altima from Hertz.  They inspect them to death and certify/warranty them before selling them, so I wasn't overly worried.  And at the end of the day, I was paying $14,000 for an Altima, not $100k for a Benz, so in the unlikely event it ended up being enough of a lemon to be a nuisance, but not enough of a lemon to get the law on them, I could eat that risk.

Anyhow, the car has been great.  No complaints at all.  ...until last Friday.  It started acting REALLY odd, and the dreaded "check engine" light made its appearance, and had me thinking there might be major issues.  Brought it to my usual mechanic, who I trust and is usually aces.  They informed me that the diagnostic code that was coming up was one of a few dealer-specific codes that are Nissan proprietary, and outside of a dealer, diagnostic machines don't know what they mean.  So I was going to have to take it to the dealer.  Which I thought at the time meant that it was really serious and was going to be really expensive.  Nissan just called me.  The bad news:  a sub-assembly inside the transmission failed mechanically and needed to be completely replaced.  This is major.  The good news:  It is covered under warranty, so it is FREE to replace.  And which also means I get a free loaner car while they work on it. 

So...all's well that ends well. 
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2018, 02:26:28 PM »
But...

Is the loaner car electric?
I just don't understand what they were trying to achieve with any part of the song, either individually or as a whole. You know what? It's the Platypus of Dream Theater songs. That bill doesn't go with that tail, or that strange little furry body, or those webbed feet, and oh god why does it have venomous spurs!? And then you find out it lays eggs too. The difference is that the Platypus is somehow functional despite being a crazy mishmash or leftover animal pieces

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2018, 02:48:46 PM »
 :lol

but that's cool its under warranty but also kind of scary about buying those rental cars.  It worked out for you this time, but how long is the warranty?

Offline YtseJam

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2018, 02:56:00 PM »
Quote
They informed me that the diagnostic code that was coming up was one of a few dealer-specific codes that are Nissan proprietary, and outside of a dealer, diagnostic machines don't know what they mean.

Not for anything but if they do not have the capability to delve into manufacturer specific data then they are way behind the times. It sounds like a good thing that they couldn't though because they probably would have sold you work that was otherwise covered by the factory powertrain warranty. I just had a guy come in from a previous shop that had tried to sell him an alternator for $900 bucks even though it was covered under an open recall. I got him the repair completed for free and earned a case of beer for 5 minutes of my time. My point, be careful of shops that are behind the times in technology, training and certifications. Also you mentioned the Rogue, same thing with all of the transaxles failing. Be sure to check for open recalls before forking out the cash.

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2018, 03:13:59 PM »
but that's cool its under warranty but also kind of scary about buying those rental cars.  It worked out for you this time, but how long is the warranty?

It's the manufacturer warranty's warranty.

Not for anything but if they do not have the capability to delve into manufacturer specific data then they are way behind the times. It sounds like a good thing that they couldn't though because they probably would have sold you work that was otherwise covered by the factory powertrain warranty.

I'm not sure they are really "behind the times."  They said they even borrowed another diagnostic machine from another shop to try, but that it was a proprietary manufacturer code that only Nissan's machines could read. 

As far as them selling me work that should be covered by Nissan, yeah, I hear you.  It's important to have someone you trust working on your car.  These guys are really decent, and I have been going to them for a long time.  They have been straight with me before on issues and told me when something didn't need to be done, or how I could do it cheaper or myself.  If they had diagnosed it, I am pretty confident they would have recommended that I check the warranty and bring it to the dealership.
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Online cramx3

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2018, 04:53:51 PM »
but that's cool its under warranty but also kind of scary about buying those rental cars.  It worked out for you this time, but how long is the warranty?

It's the manufacturer warranty's warranty.

Oh this didn't come with an extra warranty from the rental company or this fix is just covered under manufacturers?  I ask because I got a certified pre-owned honda recently and it just keeps the current manufacturers warranty.  I didn't buy any of the extra warranty on top of it, but its just the typical 100k miles or 5 years and it's already got 2 years into it (12k miles though).  For some reason I was thinking the rental car company gave some extra warranty.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2018, 05:42:21 PM »
Yeah, they give a limited warranty as well.  But the mfr power train warranty is in place since the rental cars are so relatively new.
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Offline YtseJam

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2018, 03:17:22 AM »
Quote
I'm not sure they are really "behind the times."  They said they even borrowed another diagnostic machine from another shop to try, but that it was a proprietary manufacturer code that only Nissan's machines could read. 

The reason I mentioned it is because every one of my scan tools will easily read oem data and any modern information database will provide factory information with technical service bulletins. Older non CAN compliant diagnostic units will read "manufacturer specific" and leave it at that but those units are old and provide little function other than generic data if that. The technology moves quick but many shops do not keep up with it.