Author Topic: Can we just stop, please?  (Read 4771 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline bosk1

  • Bow down to Boskaryus
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4965
  • Shopping Cart Apologist
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #140 on: June 13, 2018, 11:17:53 AM »
???  I don't see any assuming of motivations rather than what she has actually said.  I think you are seeing something that isn't intended to be there.
Uh uh. Within the context of what she said she was plainly stating that they were deplorable for being racist, homophobic, misogynistic fucksticks. The idea that she was just denouncing people that disagreed with her platform is an assumption based on his opinion of her personality. Stadler is very definitely misstating her position, in opposition to his contempt for identity politics.

Quote from: HRC
“You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump’s supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right?” Clinton said. “The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic—you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up.

Yeah, I don't see anything qualitatively different in what she said and what Stadler was saying, at least for purposes of his argument.
Then I don't know what to tell you. She was pretty clear on what made them deplorable, and Stadler gives her a different reason, twice.

That's fine.  Yes, it is "different."  But for purposes of the point Stadler was trying to make, I don't see it as qualitatively so.  The difference doesn't really appear to have any material distinction in context of what Stadler was saying.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 11:29:24 AM by bosk1 »
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline jingle.boy

  • DTF's resident deceased dictator
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 25094
  • Gender: Male
  • The changing of the worrd is inevitabre!!!
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #141 on: June 13, 2018, 11:58:04 AM »
Whoulda thunk it... two lawyers agreeing with one another on a technicality.  When "qualitatively" and "material" are used in the same consecutive sentences, it's bound to be a lawyer.  :lol

One more retort from EB, and you'll be asking to treat the witness as hostile.   :rollin :rollin
I didn't know I could handle another 10 inches and it was rough but in the end I'm glad I did it.
warflwwcesfw.
That's meme-speak for "We are really f*****g lazy when we can't eve say full words".

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 13907
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #142 on: June 13, 2018, 11:58:40 AM »
???  I don't see any assuming of motivations rather than what she has actually said.  I think you are seeing something that isn't intended to be there.
Uh uh. Within the context of what she said she was plainly stating that they were deplorable for being racist, homophobic, misogynistic fucksticks. The idea that she was just denouncing people that disagreed with her platform is an assumption based on his opinion of her personality. Stadler is very definitely misstating her position, in opposition to his contempt for identity politics.

Quote from: HRC
“You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump’s supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right?” Clinton said. “The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic—you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up.

Yeah, I don't see anything qualitatively different in what she said and what Stadler was saying, at least for purposes of his argument.
Then I don't know what to tell you. She was pretty clear on what made them deplorable, and Stadler gives her a different reason, twice.


Although I appreciate the support, it's not like I don't understand what you are saying.   But I disagree.   She's far too smart to not know the hyperbole she engaged in.  That's not "guessing her motivation".    She is clearly a self-avowed elitist.  She's SAID she (while First Lady) felt that she and Bill were "born" to lead this country.    That's not "guessing her motivation".  She has doubled, tripled, quadrupled, almost ad infinitum down on the proposition that she lost because "racists" voted for Trump.  That's not "guessing her motivation".  Many, on the left, have taken the position that it is absolutely preposterous that ANYONE could vote for Trump.   

I'm not arguing what she said.  It's pretty clear, and it's not inconsistent with what you said.  But I'm arguing that it is a one-sided view.  She DID define that "deplorable" was certain things - racist, misogynist, etc. - but failed to define what those are, and that's important because it shows that she wasn't interested in the details, but rather the moral implications of the broad brush.  It was enough to white wash with the label "racist" for all of us to know what was what.   I for one have a real problem - that shouldn't be news to you - in making things "one issue".   I have a problem less with the "deplorable" basket, but with the implication that if you're a racist your vote doesn't count (or counts less).   By saying that, she was very clearly saying that "if you're not a racist, and you're not confused, you SHOULD be voting for ME!"   Well, guess what; I'm neither and I didn't, and I don't need to have my morals questioned, or be shamed for that.   

Offline El Barto

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 20885
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #143 on: June 13, 2018, 12:05:14 PM »
???  I don't see any assuming of motivations rather than what she has actually said.  I think you are seeing something that isn't intended to be there.
Uh uh. Within the context of what she said she was plainly stating that they were deplorable for being racist, homophobic, misogynistic fucksticks. The idea that she was just denouncing people that disagreed with her platform is an assumption based on his opinion of her personality. Stadler is very definitely misstating her position, in opposition to his contempt for identity politics.

Quote from: HRC
“You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump’s supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right?” Clinton said. “The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic—you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up.

Yeah, I don't see anything qualitatively different in what she said and what Stadler was saying, at least for purposes of his argument.
Then I don't know what to tell you. She was pretty clear on what made them deplorable, and Stadler gives her a different reason, twice.

That's fine.  Yes, it is "different."  But for purposes of the point Stadler was trying to make, I don't see it as qualitatively so.  The difference doesn't really appear to have any material distinction in context of what Stadler was saying.
When Stadler's greater point is "identity politics be bad" and he cites HRC as an example by using her personality to reinterpret her words I'd call it highly material.


Whoulda thunk it... two lawyers agreeing with one another on a technicality.  When "qualitatively" and "material" are used in the same consecutive sentences, it's bound to be a lawyer.  :lol

One more retort from EB, and you'll be asking to treat the witness as hostile.   :rollin :rollin
Hell, I want 2/3 of the posts I make here to be regarded as Fucking Hostile.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline El Barto

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 20885
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #144 on: June 13, 2018, 12:19:35 PM »
???  I don't see any assuming of motivations rather than what she has actually said.  I think you are seeing something that isn't intended to be there.
Uh uh. Within the context of what she said she was plainly stating that they were deplorable for being racist, homophobic, misogynistic fucksticks. The idea that she was just denouncing people that disagreed with her platform is an assumption based on his opinion of her personality. Stadler is very definitely misstating her position, in opposition to his contempt for identity politics.

Quote from: HRC
“You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump’s supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right?” Clinton said. “The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic—you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up.

Yeah, I don't see anything qualitatively different in what she said and what Stadler was saying, at least for purposes of his argument.
Then I don't know what to tell you. She was pretty clear on what made them deplorable, and Stadler gives her a different reason, twice.


Although I appreciate the support, it's not like I don't understand what you are saying.   But I disagree.   She's far too smart to not know the hyperbole she engaged in.  That's not "guessing her motivation".    She is clearly a self-avowed elitist.  She's SAID she (while First Lady) felt that she and Bill were "born" to lead this country.    That's not "guessing her motivation".  She has doubled, tripled, quadrupled, almost ad infinitum down on the proposition that she lost because "racists" voted for Trump.  That's not "guessing her motivation".  Many, on the left, have taken the position that it is absolutely preposterous that ANYONE could vote for Trump.   

I'm not arguing what she said.  It's pretty clear, and it's not inconsistent with what you said.  But I'm arguing that it is a one-sided view.  She DID define that "deplorable" was certain things - racist, misogynist, etc. - but failed to define what those are, and that's important because it shows that she wasn't interested in the details, but rather the moral implications of the broad brush.  It was enough to white wash with the label "racist" for all of us to know what was what.   I for one have a real problem - that shouldn't be news to you - in making things "one issue".   I have a problem less with the "deplorable" basket, but with the implication that if you're a racist your vote doesn't count (or counts less).   By saying that, she was very clearly saying that "if you're not a racist, and you're not confused, you SHOULD be voting for ME!"   Well, guess what; I'm neither and I didn't, and I don't need to have my morals questioned, or be shamed for that.
I didn't say you guessed her motivation. I said you assumed her motivation based on her personality, which you continue to do. Something you'd come down on anybody else for doing in big way.

Setting aside the question of how much defining you expect her to do in a 2 minute debate rebuttal, the question I ask is why she has to define them to make the point she made. The fucksticks can define themselves, and those that do will very likely be Trump voters. When I watch her make that comment I don't need to know what she considers a racist or homophobe because the fact is that they exist and will likely be in Trump's basket.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline jingle.boy

  • DTF's resident deceased dictator
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 25094
  • Gender: Male
  • The changing of the worrd is inevitabre!!!
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #145 on: June 13, 2018, 01:42:55 PM »
I guess we can't just stop, please.
I didn't know I could handle another 10 inches and it was rough but in the end I'm glad I did it.
warflwwcesfw.
That's meme-speak for "We are really f*****g lazy when we can't eve say full words".

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 13907
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #146 on: June 13, 2018, 01:57:34 PM »
Although I appreciate the support, it's not like I don't understand what you are saying.   But I disagree.   She's far too smart to not know the hyperbole she engaged in.  That's not "guessing her motivation".    She is clearly a self-avowed elitist.  She's SAID she (while First Lady) felt that she and Bill were "born" to lead this country.    That's not "guessing her motivation".  She has doubled, tripled, quadrupled, almost ad infinitum down on the proposition that she lost because "racists" voted for Trump.  That's not "guessing her motivation".  Many, on the left, have taken the position that it is absolutely preposterous that ANYONE could vote for Trump.   

I'm not arguing what she said.  It's pretty clear, and it's not inconsistent with what you said.  But I'm arguing that it is a one-sided view.  She DID define that "deplorable" was certain things - racist, misogynist, etc. - but failed to define what those are, and that's important because it shows that she wasn't interested in the details, but rather the moral implications of the broad brush.  It was enough to white wash with the label "racist" for all of us to know what was what.   I for one have a real problem - that shouldn't be news to you - in making things "one issue".   I have a problem less with the "deplorable" basket, but with the implication that if you're a racist your vote doesn't count (or counts less).   By saying that, she was very clearly saying that "if you're not a racist, and you're not confused, you SHOULD be voting for ME!"   Well, guess what; I'm neither and I didn't, and I don't need to have my morals questioned, or be shamed for that.
I didn't say you guessed her motivation. I said you assumed her motivation based on her personality, which you continue to do. Something you'd come down on anybody else for doing in big way.

Setting aside the question of how much defining you expect her to do in a 2 minute debate rebuttal, the question I ask is why she has to define them to make the point she made. The fucksticks can define themselves, and those that do will very likely be Trump voters. When I watch her make that comment I don't need to know what she considers a racist or homophobe because the fact is that they exist and will likely be in Trump's basket.

Help me out, sincerely.  How am I assuming her motivation based on her personality?  I'll give you the point if you said "I'm assuming her motivation  based on evidence that isn't included in her statement", sure, but I think it's a relevant point that almost the entire Democrat platform - a platform I would nominally agree with in large part, mind you - is predicated on MORAL concerns not practical ones, so it's hardly "personal" that I ascribe that to her.   I would - and have - said the same thing about Bernie Sanders.  I actually like Bernie, and admire him in a lot of ways, but the fact remains, the idea that he would absolve students of their debt, unilaterally, is a moral position.  That he bases much of his campaign on the fallacy of income inequality - a moral argument if there ever was one (our economy is NOT a zero sum game) - is a moral position.  The idea that anyone who is for "repeal and replace" necessarily wants to "see people die!".  I am very much for "repeal and replace", precisely because I DON'T want to see ANYONE die that doesn't have to. 

In a very real way, I'm not sure "motivation" even matters, except as validation of the outcome.   It's the outcome that is important.  This is what I'm arguing against, not Hillary Clinton. No, she didn't have to define anything, and on that point you are 100% correct.   But I would argue that the fact that ANY of Trump's voters are potentially "racist" is not a relevant factor for anyone but that person.  I don't see the relevancy of that point EXCEPT to bully people into voting FOR her out of fear of being put in the "basket".   

What am I missing?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 02:15:05 PM by Stadler »

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 13907
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #147 on: June 13, 2018, 01:58:43 PM »
I guess we can't just stop, please.

Can't stop me now! Having a good time, having a ball.   

Offline Kattelox

  • Cart Corral Crusader
  • Posts: 4981
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #148 on: June 13, 2018, 04:00:29 PM »
I guess we can't just stop, please.

Can't stop me now! Having a good time, having a ball.

I was just listening to this about an hour ago because you piqued my interest in Queen recently. Good timing. Good song. :)
RYM || Last.FM
"No Christ, God, nor religion gave me the answers I was looking for" - Timo Tolkki

Offline cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 18797
  • Gender: Male
    • The Home of cramx3
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #149 on: June 13, 2018, 04:19:59 PM »
I guess we can't just stop, please.

Can't stop me now! Having a good time, having a ball.

I was just listening to this about an hour ago because you piqued my interest in Queen recently. Good timing. Good song. :)

One of my favorite and rarely listened to Queen songs.  I need to get that played more often. 

Offline sylvan

  • Alter Bridge Disciple
  • Posts: 849
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #150 on: June 14, 2018, 06:59:46 AM »
http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2018/06/14/kathy-griffin-calls-out-kevin-hart-for-not-attacking-trump.html

Lolz

Featured quote:
"Some of the dumbest hot takes on race and politics come from white liberals.”

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 13907
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #151 on: June 14, 2018, 10:39:29 AM »
I swear I'm not joking here; if a genie came out of a bottle right now and said "Three wishes, bro!",

1.  All social media, gone, as if it never happened.
2.  The entire world would realize immediately that "silence" is NOT "consent".   Not everyone who doesn't "Resist!" deserves ridicule and bullying.
3.  I need a minute; it's either $250 billion dollars, or a date with Margot Robbie.  Right now, leaning cash, since I don't know how that second thing would  play out. 


(And lest anyone criticize me for not picking "peace" or "eradication of disease", well the former might largely be covered by 1 and 2, and the latter I could probably kick start with a portion of 3, after I buy a few things (college for my kids, my new BMW M6, a Playstation 4/xBox One X gaming center, and a backyard concert by Kiss)). 

Offline bosk1

  • Bow down to Boskaryus
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4965
  • Shopping Cart Apologist
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #152 on: June 14, 2018, 02:06:11 PM »
I'm not gonna lie--kinda disappointed that a date with me wasn't even in the running.  But oh well...
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline jingle.boy

  • DTF's resident deceased dictator
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 25094
  • Gender: Male
  • The changing of the worrd is inevitabre!!!
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #153 on: June 14, 2018, 05:28:28 PM »
I'm not gonna lie--kinda disappointed that a date with me wasn't even in the running.  But oh well...

God, would I love to be a fly on the wall for THAT conversation
I didn't know I could handle another 10 inches and it was rough but in the end I'm glad I did it.
warflwwcesfw.
That's meme-speak for "We are really f*****g lazy when we can't eve say full words".

Offline Harmony

  • Posts: 409
  • Gender: Female
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #154 on: June 14, 2018, 06:26:19 PM »
I'm not gonna lie--kinda disappointed that a date with me wasn't even in the running.  But oh well...

God, would I love to be a fly on the wall for THAT conversation

Do you think either of them would be able to get a word in edgewise?   :D

Haha, just a little lawyer joke.  Bosk isn't nearly as wordy as Stadler.  So I'm rooting for Bosk to get to speak first.  Just don't take a breath there Bosk!   :P

Offline Cool Chris

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 6556
  • Gender: Male
  • Rest in Peace
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #155 on: June 14, 2018, 06:29:25 PM »
Dostoevsky isn't nearly as wordy as Stadler.  :-X
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 13907
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #156 on: June 15, 2018, 08:28:23 AM »
Guys, I'm standing right here.   I can hear you. 

Offline sylvan

  • Alter Bridge Disciple
  • Posts: 849
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #157 on: June 15, 2018, 08:47:32 AM »
Guys, I'm standing right here.   I can hear you.

Come on guys, let's get real... Dave_Manchester is the far and away leader of long posts  :hat

Offline jingle.boy

  • DTF's resident deceased dictator
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 25094
  • Gender: Male
  • The changing of the worrd is inevitabre!!!
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #158 on: June 15, 2018, 08:51:27 AM »
Guys, I'm standing right here.   I can hear you.

Come on guys, let's get real... Dave_Manchester is the far and away leader of long posts  :hat

Perhaps, but the quote pyramids and sheer quantity of loquacious posts also give Stads an edge.
I didn't know I could handle another 10 inches and it was rough but in the end I'm glad I did it.
warflwwcesfw.
That's meme-speak for "We are really f*****g lazy when we can't eve say full words".

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 13907
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #159 on: June 15, 2018, 09:10:07 AM »
You guys say all this like it's a bad thing.  :)

Offline Kattelox

  • Cart Corral Crusader
  • Posts: 4981
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #160 on: June 15, 2018, 09:36:15 AM »
Dave may be the leader of the long post - but (and I say this with a) great respect and b) an acknowledgment that I lack the mental fortitude to keep up the pace sometimes) Stadler is the king of split-thought (and provocative) sentences, simultaneously 1) humorous and 2) reading like a lawyer's email (bullet points not (always) included).

:)
RYM || Last.FM
"No Christ, God, nor religion gave me the answers I was looking for" - Timo Tolkki

Offline sylvan

  • Alter Bridge Disciple
  • Posts: 849
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #161 on: July 13, 2018, 09:13:56 AM »
https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5b327272e4b0b745f1784747

"The Hunt for the Trump Tapes with Tom Arnold"
Here I thought VICELAND missed the mark with "Action Bronson's Ancient Aliens"  :rollin :hat :facepalm:

Can you see it:
"Coming to Fox NEWS this fall, the long awaited answers we've all been searching for... The Obama Papers: The Hunt for the REAL Birth Certificate with Alex Jones."

  :yeahright

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 13907
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #162 on: July 23, 2018, 10:49:24 AM »
Not sure if this is the right place, but....

http://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/guardians-of-the-galaxy-star-quits-twitter-after-james-gunn-firing/ar-BBKZm8U?ocid=ientp

More interested in the Gunn firing than some actor who I've never heard of quitting Twitter (though I applaud them; perhaps we should ALL quit Twitter).

Offline Adami

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 27031
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #163 on: July 23, 2018, 11:06:59 AM »
Not sure if this is the right place, but....

http://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/guardians-of-the-galaxy-star-quits-twitter-after-james-gunn-firing/ar-BBKZm8U?ocid=ientp

More interested in the Gunn firing than some actor who I've never heard of quitting Twitter (though I applaud them; perhaps we should ALL quit Twitter).

Yea, Disney kind of backed themselves into a corner with that one.

1) Conservatives would completely destroy Disney (or try to) if they maintained the employment of a guy who made tweets about kid rape or whatever. Since most of America is conservative, they can't really afford to lose all those movie goers.

2) They fired Roseanne for tweets as well. While these tweets and hers have nothing in common, they're stocks would suffer quite a bit if they're in the news constantly for double standards for liberals/conservatives, men/women, thin people/fat people etc.

But yea. I think firing the guy was tricky. He made these tweets years and years ago. Has already gone on the apology tour for them. And they were made out of a very very very bad sense of humor, not malice or anything else.

I dunno. I don't like it, but most people don't see any nuance or difference between this and someone making a super racist tweet and getting fired.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Online axeman90210

  • Official Minister of Awesome, and Veronica knows my name!
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 11653
  • Gender: Male
  • Never go full Nick
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #164 on: July 23, 2018, 11:09:21 AM »
Not sure if this is the right place, but....

http://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/guardians-of-the-galaxy-star-quits-twitter-after-james-gunn-firing/ar-BBKZm8U?ocid=ientp

More interested in the Gunn firing than some actor who I've never heard of quitting Twitter (though I applaud them; perhaps we should ALL quit Twitter).

I've gone back and forth about this in my head over the last few days. The stuff he tweeted was most definitely awful/inappropriate, full stop. That said, my understanding is that he had since publicly apologized for them a while back, and this was known to Disney when they first brought him in to work on GotG. It seems like it's part of a deliberate witch hunt by Cernovich to dig up old comments/jokes about anybody whose politics they don't like and make a fuss about them. Kind of hard to watch a guy who, by all accounts is a better person now, go down in flames courtesy of a guy who has trafficked in pizza-gate.
Photobucket sucks.

Offline bosk1

  • Bow down to Boskaryus
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4965
  • Shopping Cart Apologist
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #165 on: July 23, 2018, 11:26:10 AM »
Not sure if this is the right place, but....

http://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/guardians-of-the-galaxy-star-quits-twitter-after-james-gunn-firing/ar-BBKZm8U?ocid=ientp

More interested in the Gunn firing than some actor who I've never heard of quitting Twitter (though I applaud them; perhaps we should ALL quit Twitter).

Yea, Disney kind of backed themselves into a corner with that one.

1) Conservatives would completely destroy Disney (or try to) if they maintained the employment of a guy who made tweets about kid rape or whatever. Since most of America is conservative, they can't really afford to lose all those movie goers.

2) They fired Roseanne for tweets as well. While these tweets and hers have nothing in common, they're stocks would suffer quite a bit if they're in the news constantly for double standards for liberals/conservatives, men/women, thin people/fat people etc.

But yea. I think firing the guy was tricky. He made these tweets years and years ago. Has already gone on the apology tour for them. And they were made out of a very very very bad sense of humor, not malice or anything else.

I dunno. I don't like it, but most people don't see any nuance or difference between this and someone making a super racist tweet and getting fired.

I don't disagree with your analysis in terms of it being an accurate reflection of the world we live in.  But I just wish we lived in a world where we (as a society) could take a more thoughtful approach to things.  I wouldn't at all mind the studios at issue in BOTH situations saying, "We are sorry that what Roseanne/James said was offensive to some of our customers.  Out studio does not support such view, and those views are not representative of the studio.  But we recognize that people often say or do things that may offend others, and that in a free society, we need to be tolerant of that and move on with living our lives.  If employers fired every employee that disagreed with the 'company point-of-view,' our national workforce would be a shambles.  So let's just move on, shall we?"
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Chino

  • Be excellent to each other.
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 20217
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #166 on: July 23, 2018, 11:32:32 AM »
Not sure if this is the right place, but....

http://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/guardians-of-the-galaxy-star-quits-twitter-after-james-gunn-firing/ar-BBKZm8U?ocid=ientp

More interested in the Gunn firing than some actor who I've never heard of quitting Twitter (though I applaud them; perhaps we should ALL quit Twitter).

Yea, Disney kind of backed themselves into a corner with that one.

1) Conservatives would completely destroy Disney (or try to) if they maintained the employment of a guy who made tweets about kid rape or whatever. Since most of America is conservative, they can't really afford to lose all those movie goers.

2) They fired Roseanne for tweets as well. While these tweets and hers have nothing in common, they're stocks would suffer quite a bit if they're in the news constantly for double standards for liberals/conservatives, men/women, thin people/fat people etc.

But yea. I think firing the guy was tricky. He made these tweets years and years ago. Has already gone on the apology tour for them. And they were made out of a very very very bad sense of humor, not malice or anything else.

I dunno. I don't like it, but most people don't see any nuance or difference between this and someone making a super racist tweet and getting fired.

I don't disagree with your analysis in terms of it being an accurate reflection of the world we live in.  But I just wish we lived in a world where we (as a society) could take a more thoughtful approach to things.  I wouldn't at all mind the studios at issue in BOTH situations saying, "We are sorry that what Roseanne/James said was offensive to some of our customers.  Out studio does not support such view, and those views are not representative of the studio.  But we recognize that people often say or do things that may offend others, and that in a free society, we need to be tolerant of that and move on with living our lives.  If employers fired every employee that disagreed with the 'company point-of-view,' our national workforce would be a shambles.  So let's just move on, shall we?"

I think such and approach would be fine for most industries, but I can totally understand why a studio wouldn't want to take such a risk on a movie with a $400M+ budget.

Offline Adami

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 27031
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #167 on: July 23, 2018, 11:45:16 AM »
I think one thing that isn't being talked about as much was that the tweets resurfacing was a direct and deliberate attempt by people to get James Gunn fired because of his views on Trump and so forth.

Disney set a pretty dangerous precedent by showing that...yes, this can work. If you don't like someone, you can destroy them if they've ever done anything bad on twitter.

Say what you want about Trump, but he has yet to actually suffer any consequence from his tweets or anything he's said. So I wouldn't say it's the same thing when people dig up his tweets, because they've yet to result in anything beyond liberals getting angry.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 13907
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #168 on: July 23, 2018, 12:17:36 PM »
Not sure if this is the right place, but....

http://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/guardians-of-the-galaxy-star-quits-twitter-after-james-gunn-firing/ar-BBKZm8U?ocid=ientp

More interested in the Gunn firing than some actor who I've never heard of quitting Twitter (though I applaud them; perhaps we should ALL quit Twitter).

I've gone back and forth about this in my head over the last few days. The stuff he tweeted was most definitely awful/inappropriate, full stop. That said, my understanding is that he had since publicly apologized for them a while back, and this was known to Disney when they first brought him in to work on GotG. It seems like it's part of a deliberate witch hunt by Cernovich to dig up old comments/jokes about anybody whose politics they don't like and make a fuss about them. Kind of hard to watch a guy who, by all accounts is a better person now, go down in flames courtesy of a guy who has trafficked in pizza-gate.

But isn't what's good for the goose, good for the gander?

Adami made the point about there being nuance/differences between that and a "super racist tweet", and while I don't see any difference between the two - hate is hate, in my view, and any attempt to discern the difference between hate is another word for "rationalization" - we've already crossed the line where the "mention" of race is in fact "racism", so why are we firing ANY of these people?   

And I haven't even gotten to the cottage business of digging up Trump's tweets from 150 years ago in order to hang him as a "hypocrite". 

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 13907
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #169 on: July 23, 2018, 12:22:35 PM »
I think one thing that isn't being talked about as much was that the tweets resurfacing was a direct and deliberate attempt by people to get James Gunn fired because of his views on Trump and so forth.

Disney set a pretty dangerous precedent by showing that...yes, this can work. If you don't like someone, you can destroy them if they've ever done anything bad on twitter.

Say what you want about Trump, but he has yet to actually suffer any consequence from his tweets or anything he's said. So I wouldn't say it's the same thing when people dig up his tweets, because they've yet to result in anything beyond liberals getting angry.

I think Roseanne being fired was directly tied, at least in part, to her views on Trump.    A good measure of the press on her comeback was about how "unabashed" a Trump fan she was.  Sarah Gilbert hasn't had that much press interest since, well, never, as she tried to walk the RESIST! line and be fair to her colleague and friend, with whom she has a political disagreement.   

As for Trump, I wasn't referring to the consequences; I don't think he SHOULD face consequences, simply because someone disagrees with what he says.   But that's not for lack of trying by his opponents.   But he's been painted as a liar and hypocrite in large part due to the disparity in his past tweets.

Offline Adami

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 27031
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #170 on: July 23, 2018, 12:23:33 PM »
Huh? There's no difference between rape jokes and racism? Where is the hate in Gunn's tweets?

I agree that there shouldn't be a blanket firing policy. Each case should be looked at differently. They're not all the same, it's not black and white. Saying all negative tweets are exactly the same is also missing the nuance and context and playing into the all or nothing nonsense that's messing up the country.

Personally, our goal should always be to make the world a better place. Some people spewing hatred shouldn't necessarily get to continue their employment, depending on what kind of job they have. That said, people should be allowed the chance to grow and learn from their mistakes. Again, it's a case by case thing, not a black and white, all or nothing approach.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline Adami

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 27031
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #171 on: July 23, 2018, 12:28:24 PM »
I think one thing that isn't being talked about as much was that the tweets resurfacing was a direct and deliberate attempt by people to get James Gunn fired because of his views on Trump and so forth.

Disney set a pretty dangerous precedent by showing that...yes, this can work. If you don't like someone, you can destroy them if they've ever done anything bad on twitter.

Say what you want about Trump, but he has yet to actually suffer any consequence from his tweets or anything he's said. So I wouldn't say it's the same thing when people dig up his tweets, because they've yet to result in anything beyond liberals getting angry.

I think Roseanne being fired was directly tied, at least in part, to her views on Trump.    A good measure of the press on her comeback was about how "unabashed" a Trump fan she was.  Sarah Gilbert hasn't had that much press interest since, well, never, as she tried to walk the RESIST! line and be fair to her colleague and friend, with whom she has a political disagreement.   

As for Trump, I wasn't referring to the consequences; I don't think he SHOULD face consequences, simply because someone disagrees with what he says.   But that's not for lack of trying by his opponents.   But he's been painted as a liar and hypocrite in large part due to the disparity in his past tweets.

Whether or not Rosanne was fired for being a Trump supporter isn't something you or I can know. Maybe she got fired for spilling coffee on someone with a lot of power backstage. Once we start ignoring official statements, then it's all pretty needless conjecture. I had a teacher who was officially let go ( or resigned or whatever) because of sexually reckless statements he made during class. Was this the reason he was really fired? No. He was fired because he was an awful teacher and had well over a dozen students (out of like 40) file grievances against him and complain about him. They just couldn't legally do anything until he did something that violated his contract. There's a ton of Trump supporters in the media, and in movies, and in TV shows. They're not all getting fired. The show wasn't doing very well, and she was apparently not easy to work with. Maybe they just wanted to let her go and this was a good way to do that. Who knows?

And I didn't say Trump should be fired. In fact, I said this is a dangerous precedent in firing someone for bringing up their history. People should be given the chance to grow. Gunn showed a lot of signs of learning from his mistakes. Rosanne didn't really seem to (yet at least) and Trump definitely hasn't shown any of that.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline Chino

  • Be excellent to each other.
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 20217
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #172 on: July 23, 2018, 12:33:18 PM »
I'm really fascinated by how/when all of this really hit the fan.

I wasn't really an adult at the time, so I'm oblivious, but how did people like Andrew Dice Clay and Lisa Lampanelli (not asking if you like them or not) make it as far as they did without getting a modern day crucifixion? And now that they've made it, they seem to have entered this grandfathered in, untouchable territory. Even Michael Richards seems to have come out of his comedy club rant unscathed.   

I'm sure many people would be quick to blame the millennials, and I'm sure we contribute some, but I see the pitchforks with my aunts and uncles. They're even worse than people my age as far as I'm concerned.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 12:43:00 PM by Chino »

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 13907
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #173 on: July 23, 2018, 12:41:26 PM »
Huh? There's no difference between rape jokes and racism? Where is the hate in Gunn's tweets?

I don't want to get into parsing whether he felt "hate" or not; I can't do that.  That's why I say there's no difference.  I don't at all agree that just because you say something that is insensitive to a minority that there is "hate" involved; and if you do maintain that, then you have to follow with anything that is insensitive to women must have "hate" too, because the analysis is the same.    This is part of why I think this is all bullshit.   I'm on Gunn's side; I don't think there was hate, but I also believe that it doesn't matter.    If someone wants to hate, that's on them.  Look, we're not firing a bunch of Hollywood actors because they "hate" Trump, are we?    Hate is hate, and neither is illegal. 

Quote
I agree that there shouldn't be a blanket firing policy. Each case should be looked at differently. They're not all the same, it's not black and white. Saying all negative tweets are exactly the same is also missing the nuance and context and playing into the all or nothing nonsense that's messing up the country.

No it's not, because we're not arguing the opposite sides of the same thing.  I'm saying that I don't understand how "hate" became a subjective thing.  "Hating blacks" and "hating conservatives" is exactly the same thing to me. It's hate.  I know that many (particularly, but not exclusively) on the left like to talk about "choice" - the racist "chooses" to hate, and therefore should be open to ridicule and punishment - but that's not entirely true, and we need to reflect that in our thinking. 

Quote
Personally, our goal should always be to make the world a better place. Some people spewing hatred shouldn't necessarily get to continue their employment, depending on what kind of job they have. That said, people should be allowed the chance to grow and learn from their mistakes. Again, it's a case by case thing, not a black and white, all or nothing approach.

I personally agree 100%.   "Tend Your Own Garden".   And let me be clear:  I understand that this is a contradiction, but I believe any company can fire anyone for any reason.  I also think that people should recognize their own "hate" and view others' in the same light.  Essentially, it sounds naive, but the idea is that if we all just take our own personal step back, we can avoid a shit-ton of conflict.

Offline cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 18797
  • Gender: Male
    • The Home of cramx3
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #174 on: July 23, 2018, 12:42:02 PM »
I'm really fascinated by how/when all of this really hit the fan.

I wasn't really an adult at the time, so I'm oblivious, but how did people like Andrew Dice Clay and Lisa Lampanelli (not asking if you like them or not) make it as far as they did without getting a modern day crucifixion? And now that they've made it, they seem to have entered this grandfathered in, untouchable territory. Even Michael Richards seems to have come out of his comedy club rant unscathed.   

I'm sure many people would be quick to blame the millennial, and I'm sure we contribute some, but I see the pitchforks with my aunts and uncles. They're even worse than people my age as far as I'm concerned.

I think about things like this all the time, great post.