Author Topic: Can we just stop, please?  (Read 1330 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Cool Chris

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 5591
  • Gender: Male
  • Rest in Peace
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2018, 06:02:50 PM »
The bourbon comment, my friend, was intentional. :cheers: (isn't there an emoticon for this?)

I wasn't actually offended, I was (failing at?) being ironic. You weren't calling me out personally, and were defending your opinions in a reasonably tactful, respectful way, thus I wasn't bothered my your statement.
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Offline Adami

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 25916
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2018, 07:00:34 PM »
I didn't know where this should go; if it belongs in the P/R section, so be it.   

But mother of god, can it end, now? 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/sony-apologizes-for-controversial-peter-rabbit-scene-which-made-light-of-food-allergies/ar-BBJ02xE?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=ientp

There's not a document, a promise, a law, or a statute that promises that we should be free from anything that violates our own personal sense of place.  This isn't about "just being careful about what you say" or "being more sensitive", this is about the clear and present danger of censoring ideas and thoughts.   This isn't helping anyone.

Well thatís a silly thing to be upset about.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Online sylvan

  • Alter Bridge Disciple
  • Posts: 702
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2018, 07:45:01 PM »
Or the female teacher at a Catholic school getting fired for posting pics on Facebook of her lesbian wedding. People are outraged, which as a parent of a student in her class is reasonable. But what the fuck did people expect? What did SHE expect? I hate organized religion as much as anybody, but I have no problem with them exercising their rights, and this seems like one you could see from a mile away.

Offline XeRocks81

  • Posts: 438
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2018, 07:58:32 PM »
Or the female teacher at a Catholic school getting fired for posting pics on Facebook of her lesbian wedding. People are outraged, which as a parent of a student in her class is reasonable. But what the fuck did people expect? What did SHE expect? I hate organized religion as much as anybody, but I have no problem with them exercising their rights, and this seems like one you could see from a mile away.

I thought it was established in this thread that people DON'T have a right to not be offended,  the school is doing the same thing as those offended by a Peter Rabbit movie want.

 
 
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 08:16:03 PM by XeRocks81 »

Offline Orbert

  • Recovering Musician
  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 15196
  • Gender: Male
  • In and around the lake
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2018, 08:30:47 PM »
Not really.  If being a practicing Catholic is not a requirement for teaching at a Catholic school, I would at least expect that their employees be required to behave in accordance with Catholic teachings.  Homosexuality is still a big no-no for Catholics, so publicly flaunting your homosexual wedding would be against the rules.  And like it or not, Facebook is considered public knowledge.

People going to see a Peter Rabbit movie have no guarantee that they'll be free from jokes based on food allergies.

Online sylvan

  • Alter Bridge Disciple
  • Posts: 702
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2018, 06:38:03 AM »
Or the female teacher at a Catholic school getting fired for posting pics on Facebook of her lesbian wedding. People are outraged, which as a parent of a student in her class is reasonable. But what the fuck did people expect? What did SHE expect? I hate organized religion as much as anybody, but I have no problem with them exercising their rights, and this seems like one you could see from a mile away.

I thought it was established in this thread that people DON'T have a right to not be offended,  the school is doing the same thing as those offended by a Peter Rabbit movie want.

Orbert said it. As an employee of a Catholic institution, there were certain requirements that must be met. And the Church isn't acting from the position of being OFFENDED. I'm having a hard time understanding how someone could try and sell that point in the course of discussion. Not only is it not a NEW development, any person that hasn't been living under a rock for the last 20 years (the teacher was an ADULT) should be crystal clear on the Church's view of homosexuality. Additionally, the school did not bow to the pressure of the "mob" as Sony did. In fact, they're doing just the opposite.

Edit: Okay, I re-read my post and can see how the "Parent outrage" could be confused. What I MEANT was that "parents are upset that a teacher their child likes is no longer there because of something they don't particularly care about." The parents don't seem to mind that she's gay, but to expect the Church not to care seems like a futile endeavor.

Offline lordxizor

  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2623
  • Gender: Male
  • and that is the truth.
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2018, 07:02:14 AM »
The biggest issue I see with the berry allergy thing is that the movie studio apologized. People need to stop apologizing for everything just because a handful of people got offended. Seriously, how many people complained about this, like 8? Companies need to stop publicly acknowledging every little complaint. I'm sure 50 years ago a handful of people would have written letters to the studio complaining and they would have gone straight in the trash. If the berry people hadn't been acknowledged they likely would have gone away, or if they did try and raise a stink, the vast majority of Americans would have just rolled their eyes at them.

Offline Kattoelox

  • Firewings
  • Posts: 1572
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2018, 07:29:46 AM »
What a sad life these people must have that they can't simply let something slide - if it isn't funny, it's deeply offensive or ignorant, because there's no middle ground for them. They seem to know what is funny and what is not, and if it doesn't fall in lock step with the way they think - as if they're the objective authority on comedy - it becomes 'wrong' and 'offensive.'

And I'm offended by that. ;)
RYM || Last.FM || Click here if you were a member of Mike Portnoy's Forum and want to reconnect with its regulars.

Offline XeRocks81

  • Posts: 438
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2018, 11:01:36 AM »

Edit: Okay, I re-read my post and can see how the "Parent outrage" could be confused. What I MEANT was that "parents are upset that a teacher their child likes is no longer there because of something they don't particularly care about." The parents don't seem to mind that she's gay, but to expect the Church not to care seems like a futile endeavor.

Oh the parents were ok with it and were upset she was fired?  Yeah I totally misunderstood that part, my bad,  carry on.

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 11027
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2018, 11:51:50 AM »
Where were these PC police when Mrs. Doubtfire put Cayenne pepper in James Bond's Jambalaya?

Seriously.

When I was a kid my best friend (who was from a VERY Italian-American family) had a bunch of books of "Italian jokes" and "Polack jokes" and what-not.  I'm guessing if these sorts of books got passed around at school these days (as we did back then), it would be grounds for suspension, which is just ridiculous.

My dad - Polack - had the Italian one, and my cousin (married to my dad's neice) - at the time it was "Wop" not "Italian" - had the Polish one.  They would swap jokes every time they got together.   Those days are long gone now, but in the confines of a family home that actually created a lot of bonding.   To this day, my dad (79 years old) is like a second father to my two cousins, and when they have issues (he has cancer, she has MS) the first person they call is my dad.   

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 11027
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2018, 11:57:19 AM »
Political correctness, or as I prefer to call it, "make the bare minimum effort in not being a colossal arsehole to someone", is not a significant problem. You don't have the right to not be offended, but equally there is no law preventing people from expressing their displeasure, nor companies responding to said market forces. In my day that was just called "capitalism".

But do you have the right to bully and/or shame those that do offend you? Do you have the right to ruin their lives and reputation with a response that goes well beyond the initial "offense"?  That's where the problem is for me.  I don't say these things, because it's more important that I not be a "colossal asshole" to someone (just a very mild asshole ;))  My beef is when the "consequences"  far outweigh the initial offense.   Like that guy that (legally) shot the lion in Africa, and lost his dental business, and his family received death threats (and had to get personal security for themselves).  That's not at all "capitalism".   

When you get offended, and shame others into either going along with your boycott, or outright bully those that don't go along with your boycott, that's also not "capitalism".   

Online cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 16979
  • Gender: Male
    • The Home of cramx3
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2018, 11:58:41 AM »
So I am part polish and my mom's side is dominantly Polish.  I grew up with my mom using the term Polacks as describing herself and other polish people.  I had no idea it was derogatory.  In third grade we did a class project that essentially created a boardgame about our heritage for the school's heritage day.  All the parents watched and we displayed this board game (it was the size of the gym as the pieces were people so it was like a spectacle to watch our class project).  I was tasked with writing some questions.  I read one of my question aloud to everyone in the gym (parents, students, teachers, and local news covering this):

What do you call Polish people? A. Italians B. Mexicans or C. Polacks?   :lol  We still laugh about this with my family

Offline Orbert

  • Recovering Musician
  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 15196
  • Gender: Male
  • In and around the lake
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #47 on: February 13, 2018, 12:04:55 PM »
I had a co-worker of Polish descent at my last job.  Very cool guy.  We were looking at some applications, which included a female also of Polish descent.  I said "Hey, you're a Polack, how do you pronounce her name?"  And he told me.  No biggie.

Our BSA heard this and came running over from the next aisle, asking us to not use racial epithets (or however she phrased it) because it was offensive.  She's Hispanic but her boyfriend is Polish.  Then, having said her piece, she immediately went back to her cube in the other aisle.

The first guy and I just looked at each other and shrugged.  He said "But I am a Polack.  Why wouldn't you call me that?"


Edit: Okay, I re-read my post and can see how the "Parent outrage" could be confused. What I MEANT was that "parents are upset that a teacher their child likes is no longer there because of something they don't particularly care about." The parents don't seem to mind that she's gay, but to expect the Church not to care seems like a futile endeavor.

Oh the parents were ok with it and were upset she was fired?  Yeah I totally misunderstood that part, my bad,  carry on.

That is an interesting reversal of what you usually hear about these days, though.  The school acted, presumably according to their rules/guidelines/whatever, and fired the teacher.  Parents complained, school stuck to their guns.

On the other hand, I'm sure there were at least a few parents that complained about the (now) openly gay teacher, so the school's action may still be in response to that.  But either way, it's their rules, their game, and somebody is gonna be unhappy.

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 11027
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #48 on: February 13, 2018, 12:07:09 PM »
These are not the same thing.  You are correct that the latter, or "what [you] prefer to call it" is not a problem.  But that is not what the thread is about.

Political correctness is, by any common definition, modification of behavior or language in order to avoid either offending or disadvantaging persons. So if you don't agree with political correctness, you are, ergo, either indifferent to causing offence/disadvantage or are in favour of actively causing it. Which, to me, is arseholish behavior.

That  is absolutely wrong.  I am VERY MUCH not indifferent to causing offense.  I don't use the N-word, even scholastically, and I take great pains to be considerate to people.   Both wives have said "too much pains".   I have stood at the mall door holding open while my family waits for me inside because I don't want to appear rude to the people behind me.  I put my shopping carts in the corral when I'm done.   But I am as vehemently anti-PC as anyone here, because while I don't want to offend anyone, I also DO NOT accept the idea that anyone else can tell me what to think, and I am extremely sensitive to any coercion in that direction.     

Quote
Who is being bullied and oppressed by people voicing their displeasure at an allergy being the butt of a joke? What court or other legal mechanisms enforced the decision of a private company to terminate an employee because he spouted some bullcrap during the olympics and got called out on it?

Well, the network clearly took that approach to avoid the bullying of an organized boycott from consumers.  Regardless, these may not be the best examples of "bullying".    When Diane von Furstenburg tweeted a supportive message to Caitlyn Jenner (something about designing a dress for her, or something) the PC Twitter bullies lambasted her to the point she felt she had to issue an apology to Caitlyn.  It has a chilling effect on further discourse.  And if even one person decides not to buy a von Furstenburg dress because the Twitter-verse believes her to be insensitive to transgender - as opposed to taking the facts and making their own determination - then that's bullying.  I know there are situations where I don't say certain things, not because I don't want to offend, but because it's not worth it to deal with the backlash of saying it.  Do you see the difference there?   

Offline XJDenton

  • What a shame
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4491
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #49 on: February 13, 2018, 12:09:48 PM »
But do you have the right to bully and/or shame those that do offend you? Do you have the right to ruin their lives and reputation with a response that goes well beyond the initial "offense"?

That's where the problem is for me.  I don't say these things, because it's more important that I not be a "colossal asshole" to someone (just a very mild asshole ;))  My beef is when the "consequences"  far outweigh the initial offense. Like that guy that (legally) shot the lion in Africa, and lost his dental business, and his family received death threats (and had to get personal security for themselves).  That's not at all "capitalism".   

When you get offended, and shame others into either going along with your boycott, or outright bully those that don't go along with your boycott, that's also not "capitalism".   

I agree with you for the most part. But what you are describing is a harassment campaign. Not political correctness.

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 11027
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #50 on: February 13, 2018, 12:10:53 PM »
The biggest issue I see with the berry allergy thing is that the movie studio apologized. People need to stop apologizing for everything just because a handful of people got offended. Seriously, how many people complained about this, like 8? Companies need to stop publicly acknowledging every little complaint. I'm sure 50 years ago a handful of people would have written letters to the studio complaining and they would have gone straight in the trash. If the berry people hadn't been acknowledged they likely would have gone away, or if they did try and raise a stink, the vast majority of Americans would have just rolled their eyes at them.

And at this point, does anyone actually think the apologies are sincere, heartfelt and considerate?  Or just a legal requirement, followed abruptly with an internal memo banning any reference to said offensive comment in any future public correspondence.   

By the way, how many Polacks does it take to change a lightbulb?   

By the way, part II, the funniest thing?  The Polish and Italian joke books were almost identical but for the changing of the nationality. 

Offline XeRocks81

  • Posts: 438
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #51 on: February 13, 2018, 12:14:33 PM »
Political correctness, or as I prefer to call it, "make the bare minimum effort in not being a colossal arsehole to someone", is not a significant problem. You don't have the right to not be offended, but equally there is no law preventing people from expressing their displeasure, nor companies responding to said market forces. In my day that was just called "capitalism".

But do you have the right to bully and/or shame those that do offend you? Do you have the right to ruin their lives and reputation with a response that goes well beyond the initial "offense"?  That's where the problem is for me.  I don't say these things, because it's more important that I not be a "colossal asshole" to someone (just a very mild asshole ;))  My beef is when the "consequences"  far outweigh the initial offense.   Like that guy that (legally) shot the lion in Africa, and lost his dental business, and his family received death threats (and had to get personal security for themselves).  That's not at all "capitalism".   

When you get offended, and shame others into either going along with your boycott, or outright bully those that don't go along with your boycott, that's also not "capitalism".

Death threats are bad (and you know, against the law) whatever the context may be.

   I don't know the particulars of how that guy lost his dental business, but that seems like a stretch to call it bullying.  I think most people would claim to be independent of thought so to imply that they would take their business elsewhere only out of fear of.. what exactly?   That's why I tend to agree with xjdenton on this, people voting with their dollars is just capitalism at work.

Offline XeRocks81

  • Posts: 438
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #52 on: February 13, 2018, 12:16:07 PM »

That is an interesting reversal of what you usually hear about these days, though.  The school acted, presumably according to their rules/guidelines/whatever, and fired the teacher.  Parents complained, school stuck to their guns.

On the other hand, I'm sure there were at least a few parents that complained about the (now) openly gay teacher, so the school's action may still be in response to that.  But either way, it's their rules, their game, and somebody is gonna be unhappy.

Isn't that a pretty clear-cut case of discrimination though, firing someone for their sexual orientation?

Offline XJDenton

  • What a shame
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4491
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #53 on: February 13, 2018, 12:26:14 PM »
That  is absolutely wrong.  I am VERY MUCH not indifferent to causing offense.  I don't use the N-word, even scholastically, and I take great pains to be considerate to people. Both wives have said "too much pains".   I have stood at the mall door holding open while my family waits for me inside because I don't want to appear rude to the people behind me.  I put my shopping carts in the corral when I'm done.


You are being politically correct then.

Quote
But I am as vehemently anti-PC as anyone here, because while I don't want to offend anyone, I also DO NOT accept the idea that anyone else can tell me what to think, and I am extremely sensitive to any coercion in that direction.

How exactly are the people mentioned in the original post coercing you into thinking a certain way?

Quote
Well, the network clearly took that approach to avoid the bullying of an organized boycott from consumers.  Regardless, these may not be the best examples of "bullying".

A boycott is not bullying. Otherwise I am bullying every single person I have chosen to to talk to. And the idea that a multi billion company with a legal department larger than some cities can be "bullied" by a minority of loud people (to use a sentiment expressed earlier in the thread) is, in my view, pretty laughable.

Quote
When Diane von Furstenburg tweeted a supportive message to Caitlyn Jenner (something about designing a dress for her, or something) the PC Twitter bullies lambasted her to the point she felt she had to issue an apology to Caitlyn.  It has a chilling effect on further discourse.  And if even one person decides not to buy a von Furstenburg dress because the Twitter-verse believes her to be insensitive to transgender - as opposed to taking the facts and making their own determination - then that's bullying.

I agree harassment is beyond the pale. but I have to respectively disagree on the last point. Online and ethical behavior by persons or companies is a perfectly valid criteria to be basing purchasing decisions on.

Quote
I know there are situations where I don't say certain things, not because I don't want to offend, but because it's not worth it to deal with the backlash of saying it.  Do you see the difference there?   

Yes. One is done as a consideration of other's feelings. The other is done for your own peace and benefit.

Online Ben_Jamin

  • Posts: 7922
  • Gender: Male
  • Do a nice one for grandma
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #54 on: February 13, 2018, 01:07:34 PM »
The berry thing reminds me of The Simpsons episode where Marge protests itchy and scratchy forcing them to ditch the violence "But then we remembered that counts as VIOLENCE, which is morally wrong now, thanks to you."
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

I Love You...Poppin Fresh

Offline Orbert

  • Recovering Musician
  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 15196
  • Gender: Male
  • In and around the lake
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #55 on: February 13, 2018, 01:50:10 PM »

That is an interesting reversal of what you usually hear about these days, though.  The school acted, presumably according to their rules/guidelines/whatever, and fired the teacher.  Parents complained, school stuck to their guns.

On the other hand, I'm sure there were at least a few parents that complained about the (now) openly gay teacher, so the school's action may still be in response to that.  But either way, it's their rules, their game, and somebody is gonna be unhappy.

Isn't that a pretty clear-cut case of discrimination though, firing someone for their sexual orientation?

I would think so, but it's also possible that things get murky where religion is involved.  It is a Catholic school, so it seems like they might have some degree of "freedom" to discriminate against those who don't follow their doctrine.  It might also vary by state or something.  But I'm no expert.

Online sylvan

  • Alter Bridge Disciple
  • Posts: 702
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #56 on: February 13, 2018, 02:03:31 PM »

That is an interesting reversal of what you usually hear about these days, though.  The school acted, presumably according to their rules/guidelines/whatever, and fired the teacher.  Parents complained, school stuck to their guns.

On the other hand, I'm sure there were at least a few parents that complained about the (now) openly gay teacher, so the school's action may still be in response to that.  But either way, it's their rules, their game, and somebody is gonna be unhappy.

Isn't that a pretty clear-cut case of discrimination though, firing someone for their sexual orientation?

I would think so, but it's also possible that things get murky where religion is involved.  It is a Catholic school, so it seems like they might have some degree of "freedom" to discriminate against those who don't follow their doctrine.  It might also vary by state or something.  But I'm no expert.

Yeah, the Church is exempt in that regard. And again, I just can't imagine how that comes as any surprise to anyone. She had a "conduct" clause (or something) that required at the very least a public appearance of living a Catholic life, or whatever. Basically a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. It seems she was fired for posting the pics, not the actual fact that she is gay.

That being said, I kind of disrespect her. Where has people's integrity gone? Why the fuck would a gay woman accept or pursue a job at a Catholic school? They don't hide or shy away from their feelings about homosexuality. I grew up Catholic; I hate organized religion at the most fundamental level; I won't set foot in a church because I certainly don't want to, but I also will extend that small respect because they truly don't want me there if I feel the way I do. I guess there are gay Catholics that still function within the church... I don't know. I just don't get it.

Offline Orbert

  • Recovering Musician
  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 15196
  • Gender: Male
  • In and around the lake
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #57 on: February 13, 2018, 02:33:24 PM »
It's a tough call.  It's possible that the only offer she had was the one from the Catholic school.  Why did she apply there in the first place?  Same as anyone else; to cast as wide a net as possible.  I'm a former teacher myself, and had to scramble three times in six years to find a job.  If the only offer on the table was at a school that I would normally have some kind of issue with, the choice is actually between the full-time salaried gig and continuing to flip burgers or wait tables or something.

Integrity?  I don't know if that's the issue.  Pride maybe, but I'll eat it up if it means getting the gig and supporting my family.  I'm not Catholic, but if the only gig was at a Catholic school, I wouldn't consider it compromising my integrity to work there.

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 11027
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #58 on: February 13, 2018, 02:52:07 PM »
But do you have the right to bully and/or shame those that do offend you? Do you have the right to ruin their lives and reputation with a response that goes well beyond the initial "offense"?

That's where the problem is for me.  I don't say these things, because it's more important that I not be a "colossal asshole" to someone (just a very mild asshole ;))  My beef is when the "consequences"  far outweigh the initial offense. Like that guy that (legally) shot the lion in Africa, and lost his dental business, and his family received death threats (and had to get personal security for themselves).  That's not at all "capitalism".   

When you get offended, and shame others into either going along with your boycott, or outright bully those that don't go along with your boycott, that's also not "capitalism".   

I agree with you for the most part. But what you are describing is a harassment campaign. Not political correctness.

A harassment campaign rooted in and rationalized by political correctness.   You gave your definition of PC, and now I give mine: "bullying someone else into thinking like you do (or at least pretending to)."

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 11027
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #59 on: February 13, 2018, 02:57:13 PM »
That  is absolutely wrong.  I am VERY MUCH not indifferent to causing offense.  I don't use the N-word, even scholastically, and I take great pains to be considerate to people. Both wives have said "too much pains".   I have stood at the mall door holding open while my family waits for me inside because I don't want to appear rude to the people behind me.  I put my shopping carts in the corral when I'm done.


You are being politically correct then.

Quote
But I am as vehemently anti-PC as anyone here, because while I don't want to offend anyone, I also DO NOT accept the idea that anyone else can tell me what to think, and I am extremely sensitive to any coercion in that direction.

How exactly are the people mentioned in the original post coercing you into thinking a certain way?

Well, perhaps I am PC, but it's only me.  I don't bully or shame anyone that decides to not hold a door or leaves the cart in the middle of the parking space. 

Quote
Quote
Well, the network clearly took that approach to avoid the bullying of an organized boycott from consumers.  Regardless, these may not be the best examples of "bullying".

A boycott is not bullying. Otherwise I am bullying every single person I have chosen to to talk to. And the idea that a multi billion company with a legal department larger than some cities can be "bullied" by a minority of loud people (to use a sentiment expressed earlier in the thread) is, in my view, pretty laughable.

Well, I separate personal action from group action.  There are vendors I personally choose not to use for whatever reason.  I do not make that anyone else's problem and I feel no need to "educate" others to do the same.   As soon I as try to sway you to see things my way - to use or not use a service or product for some ancillary issue not related to the product or service itself - it's bullying and shaming, in my view. 

Quote
When Diane von Furstenburg tweeted a supportive message to Caitlyn Jenner (something about designing a dress for her, or something) the PC Twitter bullies lambasted her to the point she felt she had to issue an apology to Caitlyn.  It has a chilling effect on further discourse.  And if even one person decides not to buy a von Furstenburg dress because the Twitter-verse believes her to be insensitive to transgender - as opposed to taking the facts and making their own determination - then that's bullying.

I agree harassment is beyond the pale. but I have to respectively disagree on the last point. Online and ethical behavior by persons or companies is a perfectly valid criteria to be basing purchasing decisions on.

Quote
Quote
I know there are situations where I don't say certain things, not because I don't want to offend, but because it's not worth it to deal with the backlash of saying it.  Do you see the difference there?   

Yes. One is done as a consideration of other's feelings. The other is done for your own peace and benefit.

NO; there's no "consideration of other's feelings".   It's kowtowing to avoid a hassle.   I should be able to listen to Phil Anselmo, or eat Chik-fil-A or buy the model glue I huff from Hobby Lobby without judgment or backlash.   That's not always the case. 

Offline XeRocks81

  • Posts: 438
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #60 on: February 13, 2018, 03:11:39 PM »

  I should be able to listen to Phil Anselmo, or eat Chik-fil-A or buy the model glue I huff from Hobby Lobby without judgment or backlash.   That's not always the case.

How so? Seriously you're probably one of the most bullheaded, stubborn people I've ever met online (I mean that in a good way, mostly  :rollin)  I'm convinced you just do what you're gonna do, eat what you want, listen to what you want.  If not then I'm really confused. 

Online cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 16979
  • Gender: Male
    • The Home of cramx3
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #61 on: February 13, 2018, 03:13:43 PM »

That is an interesting reversal of what you usually hear about these days, though.  The school acted, presumably according to their rules/guidelines/whatever, and fired the teacher.  Parents complained, school stuck to their guns.

On the other hand, I'm sure there were at least a few parents that complained about the (now) openly gay teacher, so the school's action may still be in response to that.  But either way, it's their rules, their game, and somebody is gonna be unhappy.

Isn't that a pretty clear-cut case of discrimination though, firing someone for their sexual orientation?

I would think so, but it's also possible that things get murky where religion is involved.  It is a Catholic school, so it seems like they might have some degree of "freedom" to discriminate against those who don't follow their doctrine.  It might also vary by state or something.  But I'm no expert.

Yeah, the Church is exempt in that regard. And again, I just can't imagine how that comes as any surprise to anyone. She had a "conduct" clause (or something) that required at the very least a public appearance of living a Catholic life, or whatever. Basically a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. It seems she was fired for posting the pics, not the actual fact that she is gay.

That being said, I kind of disrespect her. Where has people's integrity gone? Why the fuck would a gay woman accept or pursue a job at a Catholic school? They don't hide or shy away from their feelings about homosexuality. I grew up Catholic; I hate organized religion at the most fundamental level; I won't set foot in a church because I certainly don't want to, but I also will extend that small respect because they truly don't want me there if I feel the way I do. I guess there are gay Catholics that still function within the church... I don't know. I just don't get it.

People need to survive and if she felt she could teach there then so be it.  I won't judge someone for taking a job that's totally legit like being a teacher, but if she had this clause and broke it, then I don't feel bad or think it's wrong that she lost her job.  She signed on knowing that.  The parents have a right to be upset if their student liked the teacher, but they don't have a right to force her way back. (not sure if they are trying to do that, just saying)

Online sylvan

  • Alter Bridge Disciple
  • Posts: 702
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #62 on: February 13, 2018, 04:03:38 PM »
People need to survive and if she felt she could teach there then so be it.  I won't judge someone for taking a job that's totally legit like being a teacher, but if she had this clause and broke it, then I don't feel bad or think it's wrong that she lost her job.  She signed on knowing that.  The parents have a right to be upset if their student liked the teacher, but they don't have a right to force her way back. (not sure if they are trying to do that, just saying)

That's pretty much where I'm at. I don't necessarily judge her for having that job. I DO judge her for knowing the circumstances, and then after she's fired, taking to Twitter to spread the word, doing stories in publications, inciting some sort of outside rage. It's just a joke. I hate having to side with the Catholic Church  :rollin.

Offline gmillerdrake

  • Proud Father.....Blessed Husband
  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10968
  • Gender: Male
  • 1 Timothy 2:5
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #63 on: February 13, 2018, 07:57:28 PM »
Without Faith.....Without Hope.....There can be No Peace of Mind

Offline Adami

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 25916
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #64 on: February 13, 2018, 08:01:57 PM »
Come on guys, are we really going after that kind of low hanging fruit?

Also Daily Mail. Come on.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline Cool Chris

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 5591
  • Gender: Male
  • Rest in Peace
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #65 on: February 13, 2018, 08:12:03 PM »
That isn't new, and it isn't low hanging fruit, and I don't know what it being in the Daily Mail means, I have seen this news covered by many sources.

Last year, my sister's kindergarten teacher had them do an art project focusing on their BFF. Somehow they all survived. Will check back in 20 years to see if anyone becomes a serial killer because they weren't anyone's BFF in school.
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Offline XJDenton

  • What a shame
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4491
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #66 on: February 13, 2018, 11:33:34 PM »
The Daily Mail recently ran a front page headline declaring elected judges in the UK as "ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE".

They are trash.

Offline XJDenton

  • What a shame
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4491
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #67 on: February 13, 2018, 11:49:41 PM »
A harassment campaign rooted in and rationalized by political correctness.

Ah, so we agree they aren't the same then. Good.

Quote
You gave your definition of PC, and now I give mine: "bullying someone else into thinking like you do (or at least pretending to)."

If that is the definition you are using then I can understand where the disconnect between our thinking lies.

Well, perhaps I am PC, but it's only me.  I don't bully or shame anyone that decides to not hold a door or leaves the cart in the middle of the parking space.

As I've said before, shaming is not bullying. If you feel shame after somebody calls you out on something that is because some part of you at least knows your actions are wrong. Being called out on wrong behavior is not a problem IMO. And bullying requires a power dynamic. Some guy in the street calling you out on your manners has no power you don't have and is ergo not bullying.

Quote
Well, I separate personal action from group action.  There are vendors I personally choose not to use for whatever reason.  I do not make that anyone else's problem and I feel no need to "educate" others to do the same.   As soon I as try to sway you to see things my way - to use or not use a service or product for some ancillary issue not related to the product or service itself - it's bullying and shaming, in my view.

By that broad definition, all debate, scientific journals, scientists and advocacy groups are bullies. I feel that is not a useful definition.

Quote
NO; there's no "consideration of other's feelings".   It's kowtowing to avoid a hassle.   I should be able to listen to Phil Anselmo, or eat Chik-fil-A or buy the model glue I huff from Hobby Lobby without judgment or backlash.

Why? Why should your actions only exist in a vacuum?

Offline Cool Chris

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 5591
  • Gender: Male
  • Rest in Peace
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #68 on: February 14, 2018, 12:21:17 AM »
Being called out on wrong behavior is not a problem IMO.

Sorry to jump in but who is the arbiter of what constitutes "wrong behavior?" Some of us are feeling that it has become the person who complains the loudest because the behavior in question that doesn't conform to their beliefs.
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Offline XJDenton

  • What a shame
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4491
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #69 on: February 14, 2018, 02:12:47 AM »
Reasonable point. Perhaps a better description would be "anti-social/hurtful behavior". What constitutes as wrong does of course depend on your moral philosophy, which is not an absolute thing. I will say that in general the loudest voices are not necessarily the most powerful ones however.