Poll

Who is your favorite NFL Team

Arizona Cardinals
0 (0%)
Atlanta Falcons
2 (3.8%)
Baltimore Ravens
2 (3.8%)
Buffalo Bills
0 (0%)
Carolina Panthers
2 (3.8%)
Chicago Bears
1 (1.9%)
Cincinnati Bengals
1 (1.9%)
Cleveland Browns
1 (1.9%)
Dallas Cowboys
0 (0%)
Denver Broncos
4 (7.7%)
Detroit Lions
0 (0%)
Green Bay Packers
3 (5.8%)
Houston Texans
0 (0%)
Indianapolis Colts
0 (0%)
Jacksonville Jaguars
0 (0%)
Kansas City Chiefs
2 (3.8%)
Los Angeles Chargers
1 (1.9%)
Los Angeles Rams
1 (1.9%)
Miami Dolphins
1 (1.9%)
Minnesota Vikings
2 (3.8%)
New England Patriots
7 (13.5%)
New Orleans Saints
0 (0%)
New York Giants
3 (5.8%)
New York Jets
3 (5.8%)
Oakland Raiders
0 (0%)
Philadelphia Eagles
4 (7.7%)
Pittsburgh Steelers
4 (7.7%)
San Francisco 49ers
4 (7.7%)
Seattle Seahawks
2 (3.8%)
Tampa Bay Buccaneers
1 (1.9%)
Tennessee Titans
0 (0%)
Washington Redskins
1 (1.9%)

Total Members Voted: 52

Author Topic: 2018 NFL Thread - PRESEASON  (Read 19715 times)

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Offline kingshmegland

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Re: 2018 NFL Thread v. FLY EAGLES FLY
« Reply #210 on: February 13, 2018, 11:40:28 AM »
I think there's a difference in operating in the grey zone and knowingly cheating.  Things like videotaping walkthroughs is cheating where as the deflating the balls is grey zone in my mind.

They didn't videotape walkthroughs.


And I'm not directing this at you, Cram, but do people even know what Spygate was about? What actually happened?

Don't forget about the bugs planted in the opposing locker rooms, the headsets going out.  I could go on about these made up baloney.  They got caught in the first quarter of the first game filming from the sidelines.  It was allowed the year before.  BB was an ass for doing that after the memo came out before the start of the season.  The Pats got what they deserved for BB's arrogance but now, all this has become larger than life where myths become reality. 

 
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Offline cramx3

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Re: 2018 NFL Thread v. FLY EAGLES FLY
« Reply #211 on: February 13, 2018, 11:44:17 AM »
Well, it seems more of a #fakenews argument really since it was reported and retracted.  But I think the reason more myths come out is because of the ball deflating thing.  It makes it look like there's more shadiness than what we know because they are put under the "cheating" spotlight a second time.  I'll also agree that there's probably an aspect of the wild goose chase, that the Pats must be doing something wrong because of all the success.  I still think they didn't need any of these "advantages".

Offline Stadler

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Re: 2018 NFL Thread v. FLY EAGLES FLY
« Reply #212 on: February 13, 2018, 11:44:37 AM »
So, the only crime is in getting caught?   ;D  Interesting view coming from a lawyer.

Why is it surprising?   I have worn three legal hats in my day: environmental, contracts, and commercial attorney.   I make my money (now) on the latter, but if I have any expertise in this world, it is in contracts.   I have taught the rudiments of contract law over the years, and I almost always share a tidbit that my law school contracts professor told us:   someone in the class said that someone was "wrong" for breaching the contract, and he said point blank:  get it out of your head that "breaching a contract" has a morally bad component.  If it makes sense for the parties to breach it is absolutely in society's best interest (using concepts of "utility") for them to breach.  This is why the remedy for contract breaches is almost always "to put the parties in the same position they would have been but for the breach". 

Again, I have a different take when the crimes involve a violation of someone else's fundamental rights - it's not okay to say "well, it's worth it to me to spend 10 years in the pen and be on the registry to have sex - even if forced - with that girl."  There are probably issues that are grey here - stealing comes to mind - and I recognize that some crimes have consequences that go beyond just "a fine" but as a general proposition, I think this is a consistent position to take between "laws", "rights" and "free will". 

Offline kingshmegland

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Re: 2018 NFL Thread v. FLY EAGLES FLY
« Reply #213 on: February 13, 2018, 11:50:05 AM »
Well, it seems more of a #fakenews argument really since it was reported and retracted.  But I think the reason more myths come out is because of the ball deflating thing.  It makes it look like there's more shadiness than what we know because they are put under the "cheating" spotlight a second time.  I'll also agree that there's probably an aspect of the wild goose chase, that the Pats must be doing something wrong because of all the success.  I still think they didn't need any of these "advantages".

I know this will drive Kev crazy but all teams look for an advantage.  The Pats got caught once.  I don't count Deflategate.  That was a made up lynching of one of the greatest players ever in the league.  So where are the results the league office was supposed to release?  We all know the answer why.  The funny thing is the league opened the door to it being all about the office's power and in 2020, there will be a lockout of this power. 


Makes you wonder if the league office is throwing a bone to the players and allowed them to celebrate TD's hoping to make them forget the power Goodell has.
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So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam

Offline cramx3

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Re: 2018 NFL Thread v. FLY EAGLES FLY
« Reply #214 on: February 13, 2018, 11:53:23 AM »
I agree all teams look for an advantage, but some go further than others.  My opinion is the Pats have done this.  I don't think they are some big cheaters, but I don't think you can just sweep their actions under the rug either.  I don't really think it affects their legacy as that speaks for itself IMO.

Offline kingshmegland

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Re: 2018 NFL Thread v. FLY EAGLES FLY
« Reply #215 on: February 13, 2018, 11:54:41 AM »
I just think they suck at not getting caught. :lol
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'. - Bob Newhart

So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam

Offline cramx3

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Re: 2018 NFL Thread v. FLY EAGLES FLY
« Reply #216 on: February 13, 2018, 12:01:12 PM »
Well I'd think as part of the other teams trying to find any advantage, one way would be to try to catch the Pats/opponent cheating.  The Pats have a target on their backs so most teams will be more likely to dig deep enough to uncover whatever dirt they can whereas no one looks for what the Browns are doing to get an edge.

Offline pg1067

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Re: 2018 NFL Thread v. FLY EAGLES FLY
« Reply #217 on: February 13, 2018, 12:03:49 PM »
The Patriots are below average cheaters (http://yourteamcheats.com/NE).

My Broncos, the Jets and the Colts are much more prolific (http://yourteamcheats.com/).

(For what it's worth)
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Offline El Barto

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Re: 2018 NFL Thread v. FLY EAGLES FLY
« Reply #218 on: February 13, 2018, 01:35:42 PM »
Well, it seems more of a #fakenews argument really since it was reported and retracted.  But I think the reason more myths come out is because of the ball deflating thing.  It makes it look like there's more shadiness than what we know because they are put under the "cheating" spotlight a second time.  I'll also agree that there's probably an aspect of the wild goose chase, that the Pats must be doing something wrong because of all the success.  I still think they didn't need any of these "advantages".
This isn't wrong, but it gets all kinds of convoluted since the deflating thing was only a thing at all because of the myth. It becomes a sort of self-perpetuating myth.

Also, as I've said in the past we love people who push the boundaries. The closer you get to the line without going over the more revered you are. Yet once you go one micron over that line you're fucking scum and should be banned for life. There's kind of a contradiction in our values here.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Online TAC

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Re: 2018 NFL Thread v. FLY EAGLES FLY
« Reply #219 on: February 13, 2018, 01:44:23 PM »
The Patriots are below average cheaters (http://yourteamcheats.com/NE).

My Broncos, the Jets and the Colts are much more prolific (http://yourteamcheats.com/).

(For what it's worth)

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Offline kingshmegland

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Re: 2018 NFL Thread v. FLY EAGLES FLY
« Reply #220 on: February 13, 2018, 02:09:57 PM »
Let me answer for Kev.

That site was made by a Patriots fan.  I don't trust it.
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Offline axeman90210

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Re: 2018 NFL Thread v. FLY EAGLES FLY
« Reply #221 on: February 13, 2018, 02:42:37 PM »
What a coincidence, three of the Pats bigger rivals over the last 20 years are the three teams found to have cheated the most.

 :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin
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Offline kingshmegland

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Re: 2018 NFL Thread v. FLY EAGLES FLY
« Reply #222 on: February 13, 2018, 02:59:22 PM »
What a coincidence, three of the Pats bigger rivals over the last 20 years are the three teams found to have cheated the most.

 :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin

Wait, are you saying the Jets are our Rivals? :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
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Offline cramx3

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Re: 2018 NFL Thread v. FLY EAGLES FLY
« Reply #223 on: February 13, 2018, 03:03:31 PM »
Well, it seems more of a #fakenews argument really since it was reported and retracted.  But I think the reason more myths come out is because of the ball deflating thing.  It makes it look like there's more shadiness than what we know because they are put under the "cheating" spotlight a second time.  I'll also agree that there's probably an aspect of the wild goose chase, that the Pats must be doing something wrong because of all the success.  I still think they didn't need any of these "advantages".
This isn't wrong, but it gets all kinds of convoluted since the deflating thing was only a thing at all because of the myth. It becomes a sort of self-perpetuating myth.

Also, as I've said in the past we love people who push the boundaries. The closer you get to the line without going over the more revered you are. Yet once you go one micron over that line you're fucking scum and should be banned for life. There's kind of a contradiction in our values here.

Well who's values exactly?  The team, the fans?  You or me?  I mean. I'm not disagreeing, but I firmly believe there are some that still do things the "right" way and can still push boundaries without going overboard and I don't think that is really contradictory.  My values, personally, are not to "win at all costs" because I don't want my teams winning with some tarnish to them, or any reasoning to believe they didn't win fairly.  I don't think this really applies to the Pats, but in general that's how I feel about cheating.

Offline El Barto

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Re: 2018 NFL Thread v. FLY EAGLES FLY
« Reply #224 on: February 13, 2018, 04:41:46 PM »
Well, it seems more of a #fakenews argument really since it was reported and retracted.  But I think the reason more myths come out is because of the ball deflating thing.  It makes it look like there's more shadiness than what we know because they are put under the "cheating" spotlight a second time.  I'll also agree that there's probably an aspect of the wild goose chase, that the Pats must be doing something wrong because of all the success.  I still think they didn't need any of these "advantages".
This isn't wrong, but it gets all kinds of convoluted since the deflating thing was only a thing at all because of the myth. It becomes a sort of self-perpetuating myth.

Also, as I've said in the past we love people who push the boundaries. The closer you get to the line without going over the more revered you are. Yet once you go one micron over that line you're fucking scum and should be banned for life. There's kind of a contradiction in our values here.

Well who's values exactly?  The team, the fans?  You or me?  I mean. I'm not disagreeing, but I firmly believe there are some that still do things the "right" way and can still push boundaries without going overboard and I don't think that is really contradictory.  My values, personally, are not to "win at all costs" because I don't want my teams winning with some tarnish to them, or any reasoning to believe they didn't win fairly.  I don't think this really applies to the Pats, but in general that's how I feel about cheating.
I'm not sure what you mean by "the 'right' way" in this context. It just seems to me that people like when somebody goes as close to the edge of the rulebook as they can, which is still "right." Remember how respectful people were to Belichick when they punked the Ravens with the tackle ineligible play? That was exploiting the rulebook. Yet the second you crossover that line, even inadvertently, you become tainted for all time. I just think it'd be nice for people who credit cleverness to take that into account if things get turned around.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: 2018 NFL Thread v. The New England Patriots thread based on volume of posts
« Reply #225 on: February 13, 2018, 04:57:56 PM »
But that cleverness in the example was perfectly fine cause it was in the rules, and yes to me, "the right way" of skirting the rules to your advantage.  When you go to far, I don't think there's anything wrong with saying "you are now cheating and I don't like it".  Sometimes that happens by mistake from playing on the edge, and sometimes that happens because you get greedy.  Either way, I dont think it's contradictory to like living on the edge vs. getting upset when you go over the edge. 

There's an example of skirting the rulebook that was fair game, that I didn't like when I saw it in college. I guess there are exemptions to my above feelings.  PSU vs. Wisconsin in 2006 where it was almost the end of the half and Wisconsin kept being offsides on the kick off which lead to a penalty and but the clock would run down during the kick off leading to a 3rd kick off and the end of the half.  The reason I don't like it is because it lead to kick off situations where the players could get injured but goddamn was that a genuis way to skirt and manipulate the rules.  It certainly worked, and the rules were changed later. 
http://triblive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/college/s_478506.html

Offline El Barto

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Re: 2018 NFL Thread v. The New England Patriots thread based on volume of posts
« Reply #226 on: February 13, 2018, 05:16:31 PM »
But that cleverness in the example was perfectly fine cause it was in the rules, and yes to me, "the right way" of skirting the rules to your advantage.  When you go to far, I don't think there's anything wrong with saying "you are now cheating and I don't like it".  Sometimes that happens by mistake from playing on the edge, and sometimes that happens because you get greedy.  Either way, I dont think it's contradictory to like living on the edge vs. getting upset when you go over the edge. 
We're in agreement here. Mine is a problem of scale. It's alright to say "you are now cheating and I don't like it." We don't do that, though. We say "you're a fucking cheater and everything you've ever done, do, or will do, is now tainted. Asshole." And even then we only do it with people we already dislike. Nobody gives a shit when San Diego's receivers put stick-em on their gloves, or when Denver's linemen slathered Vaseline all over their arms. Imagine if the Cheatriots were caught doing something like that. All hell would break loose.  A vortex would form over St Louis after Kev sucks all the air out of the Earth's atmosphere. We just don't evaluate things well, particularly when emotions are already stirred.

Quote
There's an example of skirting the rulebook that was fair game, that I didn't like when I saw it in college. I guess there are exemptions to my above feelings.  PSU vs. Wisconsin in 2006 where it was almost the end of the half and Wisconsin kept being offsides on the kick off which lead to a penalty and but the clock would run down during the kick off leading to a 3rd kick off and the end of the half.  The reason I don't like it is because it lead to kick off situations where the players could get injured but goddamn was that a genuis way to skirt and manipulate the rules.  It certainly worked, and the rules were changed later. 
http://triblive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/college/s_478506.html
Brilliant. I love it.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: 2018 NFL Thread v. FLY EAGLES FLY
« Reply #227 on: February 13, 2018, 05:57:50 PM »


I know this will drive Kev crazy but all teams look for an advantage. 



Why would that drive me crazy? I have never argued otherwise.

Offline kingshmegland

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Re: 2018 NFL Thread v. The New England Patriots thread based on volume of posts
« Reply #228 on: February 13, 2018, 06:10:42 PM »
In the past you've argued about it.  Maybe you have changed your stance. 
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: 2018 NFL Thread v. The New England Patriots thread based on volume of posts
« Reply #229 on: February 13, 2018, 06:18:54 PM »
In the past you've argued about it.  Maybe you have changed your stance.

Not true. I might have argued that the Pats push the envelope more than many other teams, but I never would have said that every team doesn't look for an advantage.

Offline kingshmegland

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Re: 2018 NFL Thread v. The New England Patriots thread based on volume of posts
« Reply #230 on: February 13, 2018, 06:22:51 PM »
Maybe I'm blurring things.   Let's push the envelope together Kev!
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Online TAC

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Re: 2018 NFL Thread v. The New England Patriots thread based on volume of posts
« Reply #231 on: February 13, 2018, 06:40:58 PM »
In the past you've argued about it.  Maybe you have changed your stance.

Not true. I might have argued that the Pats push the envelope more than many other teams, but I never would have said that every team doesn't look for an advantage.

Well while you may have said that every team looks for an advantage, it was likely followed with "but they don't cheat like the Patriots."  ;D
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Destiny Of Chaos

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Re: 2018 NFL Thread v. The New England Patriots thread based on volume of posts
« Reply #232 on: February 14, 2018, 12:14:40 PM »
Assuming that Washington doesn't tag Cousins in an effort to try to trade him, and he is a free agent. Where do you think he'll sign? Where would you sign if you were him?

For me, I'd be torn between Minnesota or Jacksonville, but would be happy to go to either. Minnesota seems to be the slightly better choice, and Jacksonville might wind up on the hook for Bortles to the tune of 19 million next year

Offline Rattlehead

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Re: 2018 NFL Thread v. The New England Patriots thread based on volume of posts
« Reply #233 on: February 14, 2018, 07:31:19 PM »
From what I've read, Jacksonville is pretty high on Bortles, so I'm not sure if they're a potential landing spot for Cousins. It sounds to me like Denver is making a serious push to sign him. It was reported today that they want to keep Demaryius Thomas and Emmanuel Sanders to attempt to lure a "top QB" to Denver, which is obviously Cousins. A lot of Denver fans including myself felt like Sanders and/or Thomas were on their way out before today. I just get the feeling that Elway is not going to attempt to solve the QB problem through the draft again after botching the position for two straight seasons. A few veterans on the team have also been very vocal in their support of the team going after Cousins.

Still, it's going to be a real challenge to sign Cousins considering the amount money that he'll command. I think he'll wind up in either Denver, Minnesota or Arizona given that he's said that his main priority is winning games. Minnesota seems to be the most attractive option after last season, but I think Denver and Arizona could easily become contenders again with a QB like Cousins. Denver has a lot of ammunition to improve their roster in the draft if they're able to address the QB position by signing Cousins. If I haven't made myself clear, I'm dying to see Denver sign Cousins and hopefully get back to their winning ways  :lol

Offline kingshmegland

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Re: 2018 NFL Thread v. The New England Patriots thread based on volume of posts
« Reply #234 on: February 14, 2018, 07:44:38 PM »
Did I miss something Chris? :lol
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Offline TheCountOfNYC

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Re: 2018 NFL Thread v. FLY EAGLES FLY
« Reply #235 on: February 14, 2018, 08:40:16 PM »
What a coincidence, three of the Pats bigger rivals over the last 20 years are the three teams found to have cheated the most.

 :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin

Wait, are you saying the Jets are our Rivals? :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

Im simultaneously offended and in agreeance with you. Hopefully in the next five years it will actually be a rivalry again.
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Offline kingshmegland

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Re: 2018 NFL Thread v. The New England Patriots thread based on volume of posts
« Reply #236 on: February 14, 2018, 08:46:57 PM »
In this day and age, it's all about a QB.  Then the elite teams need a D. Hard to get all together.
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Offline Rattlehead

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Re: 2018 NFL Thread v. The New England Patriots thread based on volume of posts
« Reply #237 on: February 16, 2018, 06:13:55 PM »
I'm happy for AJ McCarron that he'll finally get a shot at a starting job on another team. I was impressed with what I saw back in 2015. I have a feeling that he'll end up with his former OC Hue Jackson in Cleveland, and they won't have to cough up the high draft picks to get him like they were originally planning on doing before they screwed up the trade... the Bengals can't seem to catch a break  :lol

Offline black_biff_stadler

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Re: 2018 NFL Thread v. The New England Patriots thread based on volume of posts
« Reply #238 on: February 19, 2018, 07:58:26 PM »
I've got a question about the way sacks are determined on plays where the QB fumbles. Unless I misunderstood something, you're automatically credited with a sack if you force the QB to fumble behind the line of scrimmage as long as he never crossed the LOS at any point prior to the fumble. This seems at odds to me because a sack is generally earned by making a QB down by contact behind the LOS and it's impossible to fumble if you're already down.

That's not my specific question though, rather it's just another qualm/confusion I have with how they're tallied.

My actual question is: if a defender registers a sack by forcing a QB to fumble, then the QB picks up the ball and tries to keep the play alive (all while never crossing the LOS or establishing himself as a runner), then the QB is sacked, is it possible to be credited with multiple sacks on the same play?
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Offline PowerSlave

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Re: 2018 NFL Thread v. The New England Patriots thread based on volume of posts
« Reply #239 on: February 19, 2018, 08:34:02 PM »
My actual question is: if a defender registers a sack by forcing a QB to fumble, then the QB picks up the ball and tries to keep the play alive (all while never crossing the LOS or establishing himself as a runner), then the QB is sacked, is it possible to be credited with multiple sacks on the same play?

Don't hold me to this, but I think that to be credited with a sack there would either have to be a change of possession on the fumble, or an end of play. If I'm correct then the defender that caused the fumble would only be credited with a forced fumble, and the defender that tackled the QB would be credited with a sack.

However, the QB might be considered a runner after he recovers the initial fumble, so the second defender might only be credited with a tackle for a loss.

This is a very interesting question. I'm not really sure how a scenario like that would work.


Edit was to correct my phone's auto-correct... Damn you, technology!!!
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 09:00:32 PM by PowerSlave »
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Offline black_biff_stadler

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Re: 2018 NFL Thread v. The New England Patriots thread based on volume of posts
« Reply #240 on: February 19, 2018, 08:52:47 PM »
Good points and insights :tup Thanks for trying to tackle it.
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Offline Rattlehead

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Re: 2018 NFL Thread v. The New England Patriots thread based on volume of posts
« Reply #241 on: February 20, 2018, 05:35:43 PM »
Don't hold me to this, but I think that to be credited with a sack there would either have to be a change of possession on the fumble, or an end of play. If I'm correct then the defender that caused the fumble would only be credited with a forced fumble, and the defender that tackled the QB would be credited with a sack.

That's exactly the way I see it too, I think you explained it well. A sack is an end result of a play so there couldn't be more than one on the same play. If the QB is stripped and the ball goes out of bounds (or is recovered by the defense), then the defender gets credit for a sack and forced fumble because the play is over, but if the QB picks it back up, the play is still alive so the defender would only be credited with a forced fumble.


Offline KevShmev

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Re: 2018 NFL Thread v. The New England Patriots thread based on volume of posts
« Reply #243 on: February 24, 2018, 10:46:32 PM »
Jacksonville knows talent when they see it.  Blake Bortles has the look of a guy who will win multiple Super Bowls.

Offline TheCountOfNYC

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Re: 2018 NFL Thread v. The New England Patriots thread based on volume of posts
« Reply #244 on: February 24, 2018, 11:48:52 PM »
Jacksonville knows talent when they see it.  Blake Bortles has the look of a guy who will win multiple Super Bowls.

Is that sarcasm?
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