So... was this a stupid thing to do?

[Orbert]

Before I did it, I was going to ask DTF whether or not it was a stupid idea.  Because of the subject matter, I couldn't really ask people I know, so the anonymity here works in my favor.  It then occurred to me that if the consensus was that it was a stupid idea, I probably wouldn't do it, and I'd have to live with the fact that I thought it was the right thing, but a bunch of people on the Internet told me it was dumb so I didn't.

Therefore I decided to do it anyway, and find out after the fact whether or not DTF thought it was stupid.  I can live with that.

----------

Last year, my band got a new lead singer named Angela.  I think she's hot as hell.  "Off the record" discussions with the other guys indicates that I'm not alone in this opinion.

After band rehearsals, we sit around a while and chill, and eat snack food provided by John, our band leader and host.  (He says that since he doesn't have to haul his gear around like we all do, the least he can do is provide snacks.  Good man.)  This is probably the most time we spend together not actually rehearsing, and it helps with bonding within the band, which is otherwise a bunch of people who don't really know each other.  At some point, Angela said something about trying to lose weight.  She wanted to know what we thought.

I said something like "Let me get this straight: You're already hot as hell, and you're asking a bunch of guys if you should do something to become even hotter?"  The mood was light, it was supposed to be funny, and I fully expected the other guys to chime in, agreeing with me.  Instead, they had the good sense to keep quiet.  Meanwhile, Angela seemed so surprised that she just kinda stared at me for a few seconds.  So I was left to wallow in silence and my own idiocy.  Eventually, conversation resumed.  I don't even remember now what the consensus was.  I was too busy hoping that the world would end, or that the house would catch fire and I could get the hell out of there without it being awkward.

I will never forget the look on her face.  Did I just hear that?  Is this guy that much of an asshole that he would say that, out loud?

That was actually several months ago.  Last summer, I believe.

In the wake of the "metoo" movement and all the sexual harassment in the news, Facebook and other social media have been flooded with stories, and also articles written by so-called experts and other well-meaning people.  And one thing that keeps coming up is that if you're a guy, and you've said something about a girl's appearance, or anything even remotely sexual, and she didn't respond in a positive way (which is usually, and that's why it's a bad idea to ever say anything in the first place), then you probably said something bad and you should apologize.  Don't explain, don't make a joke about it, don't try to say it was supposed to be a compliment, just apologize.  Don't even try to figure it out.  You're an asshole, you deserve to feel bad, and you should apologize.

So I did.  I wrote an email, briefly recounting the episode, and apologizing.  (I was going to say "You may not remember, but..." but everybody knows that women never forget anything, so I skipped that part.)  I apologized for saying what I did, for making her uncomfortable, and for taking so long to apologize (I've been wrestling with this for months).  I didn't mention that I'm too chicken-shit to apologize in person.  Also, I suck at conversation in real time; I'm better if I have a chance to wordsmith.  And because this happened last summer, I almost couldn't apologize in person because I'd have to recall the episode, which would take too long and make things even more awkward.  I'm 55 fucking years old, and my brain and mouth still turn to mush when I'm talking to a beautiful woman.  At this point, I don't think that's ever going to change.

I'm hoping that I was sufficiently eloquent, and that the "extra effort" of a written apology will be received positively.  I now find myself both eager to see what her response is, and completely dreading it.


So... was this a stupid thing to do?

[Stadler]

Um...  just being candid and frank here, but while it was phrased a little awkwardly, I'm not sure what was so wrong about what you said.   I mean, I get it, it's about a woman's looks, yada yada, but it's not the work place, it's not a power situation... 

But, in general, if you're willing to accept that she might say "fuck you and the Korg you rode in on", then no, I don't think it was a stupid thing to do.  If nothing else, you've set a clear line in the sand that you, as a 55 year old man, are listening and willing to adjust your calibration for the benefit of others.

[TAC]

So I totally read the OP thinking Chino wrote it. And my first thought was, I did not think you were 55. 


O, you obviously meant nothing offensive or immoral by what you said. I mean, if your response to her wanting to lose weight was, "yeah you should, you'd look a lot better" that'd be out of line. I just think a woman making that comment in front of a bunch of guys puts YOU guys in a tough spot.

Your written apology is doubling down on your decency so any other response from her that isn't" No worries, I appreciate it" is bullshit.

I mean, it's not like you went to the bathroom during a band meeting and came out in a towel. (God, I can't believe I just typed that.. )

[The Walrus]

I just think a woman making that comment in front of a bunch of guys puts YOU guys in a tough spot.

Oh, so now it's the woman's fault, huh?

Kidding.  Orbert, while I could see what you said could be interpreted as being maybe slightly offensive, I think it was fine. Apologizing to her might have been unnecessary, but also not offensive. I think you did fine, neither action was stupid.

[pogoowner]

I could see her not thinking the initial comment was a big deal (though your assessment of her reaction suggests otherwise), or I could definitely see it making her a bit uncomfortable. Either way, I really see no downside to your sending the apology. Just makes you look like someone who cares enough to try to be decent to her. If she thought you were a jerk before, this certainly won't make it worse. And if she didn't, well... she still won't.

[KevShmev]

Props to you for apologizing if you think what you said might have made her uncomfortable at all.

Besides, didn't you get the memo that commenting on the looks of a female nowadays is wrong?

[Orbert]

Thanks for the responses so far.  I dread opening my email a little bit less now.

I'm just so fucking clueless when it comes to social mores.  When I said the original "possibly offensive" remark, there was no question in my mind that it was funny.  Ha ha, Orbert; he's so funny, sometimes.  It was her reaction, so shocked, and the silence from the guys I was sure would jump in with equally "witty" remarks, that told me otherwise.  Apparently I done fucked up.

So the only thing I could think of was to apologize.  But that's scary, so of course I put it off for a while.  Then after a while it seemed kinda dumb to bring it up again.  Then the fucking "metoo" movement started and guys are getting crucified for shit they did 30 years ago, which means there's no statute of limitations on this shit.  Worst case scenario is that she was offended at the time, but in the last six months we've gotten to know each other a lot better and she'd basically forgotten about it.  In that case, all my apology did was remind her of it.  Oh yeah, that's right; Orbert is a real creep sometimes.  But because I'm cynical, and probably the safest bet anyway, I have to assume that she had not forgotten it, and in fact remembers it quite clearly.  That's why I didn't start with "Hey, remember that time..." or "I don't know if you remember, but..." because of course she remembers; what kind of asshole am I to say something like that and think she'd just forgotten about it?  I never know.

[wolfking]

Did she ask if you guys think she should lose weight, was that the context??  If so, then she asked the fucking question bro, and I think it's while not the most tactful response certainly nothing to take offense at all, she opened herself up things to go both ways really.  I think you're over thinking it or you're secretly in love with her. 

Joking, but the apology was fine, you felt like you needed to do it, so if it makes you feel better about yourself because you legit feel bad then it's all good.

[Orbert]

I don't remember the exact wording, but she was definitely thinking about losing weight and asked for feedback.  Yeah, that's completely loaded.  It's like the question all married men fear: "Does this dress make me look fat?"  (No dear, it's the extra 20 pounds that make you look fat.  Next question.)  I thought it was a ridiculous question for her to ask a bunch of guys, which is why I tried to make a joke about it.  I think it's because she felt comfortable enough around us that she didn't think asking for our feedback was a big thing.  It wasn't a girl who's smoking hot asking a question just to feed her ego; she really was asking for advice.


But apparently I'm off the hook.  I checked my email, she'd replied, and she remembered the incident and my remark (I knew it!) but did not remember any awkward silence or anything following, and she wasn't offended.  In fact, she felt bad that it had been bothering me all this time.  Wait.  Shit.  So I'm not off the hook?  By trying to do the right thing and apologize, I've made her feel bad anyway.

I give up.   

[wolfking]

I don't remember the exact wording, but she was definitely thinking about losing weight and asked for feedback.  Yeah, that's completely loaded.  It's like the question all married men fear: "Does this dress make me look fat?"  (No dear, it's the extra 20 pounds that make you look fat.  Next question.)  I thought it was a ridiculous question for her to ask a bunch of guys, which is why I tried to make a joke about it.  I think it's because she felt comfortable enough around us that she didn't think asking for our feedback was a big thing.  It wasn't a girl who's smoking hot asking a question just to feed her ego; she really was asking for advice.


But apparently I'm off the hook.  I checked my email, she'd replied, and she remembered the incident and my remark (I knew it!) but did not remember any awkward silence or anything following, and she wasn't offended.  In fact, she felt bad that it had been bothering me all this time.  Wait.  Shit.  So I'm not off the hook?  By trying to do the right thing and apologize, I've made her feel bad anyway.

I give up.   

Nah, you're good bro.  But yeah, odd question to ask a bunch of blokes.  Don't sweat it man and I think you can let it go now.

[MirrorMask]

But apparently I'm off the hook.  I checked my email, she'd replied, and she remembered the incident and my remark (I knew it!) but did not remember any awkward silence or anything following, and she wasn't offended.  In fact, she felt bad that it had been bothering me all this time.  Wait.  Shit.  So I'm not off the hook?  By trying to do the right thing and apologize, I've made her feel bad anyway.

I give up.   

This is the only logical outcome. If a girl asks if she's fat (a variant of), and you tell her (as awkward as it might have come off) that she's not fat, in no way, shape or form this should be even remotely associated to sexual harassment.

Comparing your situation to sexual harassment would be comparing wielding a knife in the kitchen to being trigger-happy with a gun.

[AngelBack]

I think you are all missing what went down here.  And Orbert you stepped in it but not in the way you think.

She wasn't asking the question to get information to decide if she should lose weight.  Women KNOW what they look like.  That's why it takes them 2 hours to get dressed, 1 hour is spent gazing at the mirror.  My guess is that she was fishing and probably fishing for a response from a specific member of the band.  We all know not to take a women's question about appearance on face value.  Gotta think a little deeper.  My guess is that she wanted to hear "No you look great like you are, real women are round, not skin and bones".  And I'm thinking she wanted to hear it from a particular member to see if he had any interest.  And maybe you ninja'd the response she was hoping for.

She was fishing for a delicious bass, you carped her.  My theory anyway.

[Chino]

I'll be the asshole. You did no wrong. Your word choice could have been a little better, but other than that, I'd say you were fine. Don't ask questions like that if all you're doing is fishing for compliments. A female asking a group of guys what they think about her thinking she might try to lose weight? Why would she even ask that? Lose weight because you want to and be healthier. The opinion of a couple of aspiring rock stars shouldn't play into her decision at all.

[Orbert]

We're all married (except for our drummer, whose life is a serious of divorces and bad hookups) and us guys are all in our 50s and she's in her 30s.  She's a genuinely sweet, nice person, and I don't get the "ulterior motive" vibe at all, nor do I think she was fishing for compliments to feed her ego.  She does have some curves, and I think she really was looking for honest feedback.  Want to know what guys think?  Ask some guys.  There we were, so she asked, and the bluntness of my answer and its bizarre wording surprised her so much that she didn't answer right away.

[King Postwhore]

I think your intentions were good natured.  This day and age sensitivity is on high alert.   I think as men we all need to adjust how we say things.  Do I agree with it?  No, but it's such a touchy world we live in now we have to.

[Stadler]

I'll be the asshole. You did no wrong. Your word choice could have been a little better, but other than that, I'd say you were fine. Don't ask questions like that if all you're doing is fishing for compliments. A female asking a group of guys what they think about her thinking she might try to lose weight? Why would she even ask that? Lose weight because you want to and be healthier. The opinion of a couple of aspiring rock stars shouldn't play into her decision at all.

I don't think that's "asshole" at all, and is pretty close to where I was trying to go with my response.

I think this is a grand example of why "context" is important. 

[Orbert]

According to the NY Times, up to 1/3 of women consider compliments on their looks to be "sexual harassment".  Not necessarily a compliment accompanied by a leer, or some kind of implication, just the compliment itself.


Guy: You look nice today.
Girl (later, to her friends): God, he's so creepy!  Always commenting on my looks or what I'm wearing.*

* "Always" = maybe once a month, if she's clearly gone to some effort.


And if some women consider that harassment, then telling her that she's "hot as hell" is definitely harassment.

But I don't have any actual power over her, right?  It's not like I'm her boss, or some powerful Hollywood producer, or something.  But I am a core member of an established band, and I have one of the votes that decides which singer we hire.  So in that sense, I have some kind of leverage.

I'm not saying that that's what it was, but I'm sure someone could build a case if they really wanted to (and have no life).  I really just didn't want there to be anything "out there" that could come back to bite my ass, and I really do care that I might have crossed the line, that led me to the decision that I should offer up an apology.  Just in case.  Fortunately, it was well-received and completely unnecessary.  But let's face it: I am male, and in all matters involving females, I can never know for sure, not 100%.

[bosk1]

It is 100% NOT harassment, even if she might consider it such.  And it seems pretty clear that she doesn't, so I wouldn't worry about it anyway.

[lonestar]

Stadler nailed it in the first response, you did what you felt you needed to do to clean off your side of the street.

[cramx3]

I dont really see anything wrong with what you said, given the scenario.  However, I think the point of why it seemed awkward is because I guess you don't really know this lady so well, or didn't back then so you didn't know her well enough to know if it bothered her or not.  I would say that would be the only lesson learned from this, for your own inner conscious at least, just don't say borderline things to people who you don't know how they'll take it.

[Stadler]

I don't know; I get it, I'm not dumb or unaware, and I don't want to jeopardize all that I've worked for over a stupid compliment, but on one hand there's the concept that not every place is "yours".   Meaning, you - man or woman - do not have a reasonable expectation of "decorum" or being treated like a fragile egg wherever you go.   My college friends and I are what some might call meatheads.  Our conversations are not for everyone (not so much sexually, as just stupid).  When we're out in public, we know how to behave - for the most part - but when we convene at one of our houses for a Uconn game or whatnot, or get together for our annual Christmas party, it's caveat emptor. 

[TAC]

.

[pg1067]

I said something like "Let me get this straight: You're already hot as hell, and you're asking a bunch of guys if you should do something to become even hotter?"

Out of curiosity, why would losing weight make her hotter?  Skinnier does not always translate to "hotter."

And one thing that keeps coming up is that if you're a guy, and you've said something about a girl's appearance, or anything even remotely sexual, and she didn't respond in a positive way (which is usually, and that's why it's a bad idea to ever say anything in the first place), then you probably said something bad and you should apologize.  Don't explain, don't make a joke about it, don't try to say it was supposed to be a compliment, just apologize.  Don't even try to figure it out.  You're an asshole, you deserve to feel bad, and you should apologize.

So I did.

So...this was months after the incident?  What was your relationship with Angela like during that time?  In other words, did she or any of the other band members act differently after you said what you said?

I'm 55 fucking years old

This might be the most surprising thing in your post.

So... was this a stupid thing to do?

Whether making the comment in the first place was or wasn't stupid depends on a number of facts, including your age difference, marital/relationship statuses, etc.  Since it sounds like you might be old enough to be her father, it seems a bit creepy.  I think sending the e-mail to apologize was not the right way to handle it.  IF you thought it was necessary to apologize (and I don't think it was), it should have been done face-to-face.  Whether any apology was necessary really depends on if and how your relationship with Angela changed after you made the original comment.  If this was seemingly forgotten within a day or two (as appears to be the case), why dredge it back up?  Dredging it back up may have more adverse impact than the original statement.

[Orbert]

I did mention that she has some curves.  She's also "vertically challenged" and shorter folks don't have as much leeway in hiding the extra pounds.  I personally think she wears it very well, but it's quite understandable that she'd be concerned about how well she's wearing it.  There are those who would call her any number of non-flattering things because they like girls with 0% body fat, and she is not that type.  To answer your question, though, the jeans were getting pretty tight, and she could stand to lose just a few pounds.

We've played six gigs together and rehearsed together a dozen times or so.  Our relationship is more like co-workers than friends, because none of us knew each other before joining the band, and we don't hang out otherwise.  Therefore there are no obvious signs of discord, but there generally would not be.  It could have been in the back of her mind all this time, simmering, or it could have been forgotten moments later.  I would have no way of knowing, because for the sake of working together, you don't carry baggage like that.  You work together to the best of your abilities, regardless of your feelings towards your co-workers.  But it always bothered me that I might have offended her.

Yep, 55 now, turning 56 this year.  You're still kind of new around here, still learning about some of us, but it's no secret.  There are actually quite a few old fogeys here on DTF.  So yeah, I'm old enough to be her father, but that matters less than you might think.  Within the band, we treat each other as equals and comrades.  JT does the rest of the guys a favor by having absolutely no filter between brain and mouth.  Believe me, one of us telling her that she's hot as hell is not the worst thing she's heard from us, probably not even the worst thing she'd heard that day.

I agree that dredging up something that was best buried and forgotten was a possibility.  That's the whole reason why I was wondering if apologizing was a stupid idea in the first place.  But I had to know.  It was also a possibility that she'd remembered the incident, was offended, and would welcome the apology.  And yes, it would have been better face-to-face.  I've already given my reasons why I didn't do it that way.

[cramx3]

So after all this, did she lose the weight or she realized she was hot as is?

[Orbert]

She's dropped a little bit, and is in fact even hotter than before.  I didn't really think about it until the other day when I wrote this whole thing up, but it's noticeable.  Or at least this was the case a few months ago.  With the holidays and people's schedules all crazy, plus our band leader's health issues, things have been on hold.  We practice this Saturday, first time since November.

[Stadler]

I think the next time there is an Orbert live picture, there should be an Angela live picture, just for record purposes.   I just want to see how much shorter than you she is. 

[JayOctavarium]

Yes, we need to see a photo.

For science!

[bosk1]

For science!

[Orbert]

You guys are all silly.  I'm posted several pictures of the band.  At least a few from every gig, I believe (there haven't been that many).

[TAC]

Yeah, but now we have context.

[bosk1]

You guys are all silly.  I'm posted several pictures of the band.  At least a few from every gig, I believe (there haven't been that many).

*goes back and checks posts*

The tall one is cuter.  But yeah.

Oh, and the Asian chick playing keyboards is homely.  Eesh.

[pg1067]

I did mention that she has some curves.  She's also "vertically challenged" and shorter folks don't have as much leeway in hiding the extra pounds.  I personally think she wears it very well, but it's quite understandable that she'd be concerned about how well she's wearing it.  There are those who would call her any number of non-flattering things because they like girls with 0% body fat, and she is not that type.  To answer your question, though, the jeans were getting pretty tight, and she could stand to lose just a few pounds.

. . .

Yep, 55 now, turning 56 this year.  You're still kind of new around here, still learning about some of us, but it's no secret.  There are actually quite a few old fogeys here on DTF.

Yup...I'm fairly new here (don't think I ever posted here until MP closed his forum), but I'm only a few years younger than you are.  Anyway, I looked at some of the pictures you've posted previously.  Without knowing Angela, I'm guessing any insecurity she might have about her appearance is because of the other signer, who looks to me to be taller, slightly more slender, and maybe a few years younger (?).  That being said, and based only on those photos, I don't think there's necessarily any weight loss needed (as opposed to maybe some toning).  Keep rockin'!

[SystematicThought]

I've gone back and looked at these pictures in the photo thread. This other vocalist, Jessica, she's quite attractive as well. All of the pictures of other members are blurry for the most part, but both women are attractive, but Jessica caught my eye first.