Author Topic: Star Wars Discussion Thread v. Rise of Skywalker / Mandalorian (merged)  (Read 248058 times)

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Offline BlackInk

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #315 on: January 07, 2018, 03:04:08 AM »
Yeah but it’s a bit sad that it’s only direct consequence was for the coder to tell the First Order that there were smaller shuttles breaking off. Absolutely nothing in the canto bight story was necessary to have that very unrelated outcome.

Offline IDontNotDoThings

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #316 on: January 07, 2018, 03:12:41 AM »
Yeah but it’s a bit sad that it’s only direct consequence was for the coder to tell the First Order that there were smaller shuttles breaking off. Absolutely nothing in the canto bight story was necessary to have that very unrelated outcome.

I thought that sequence was a huge part of Rose's character development, seeing where she came from & learning what the fight against the first order meant for her as a person. At least that's what the subplot served for me. Plus I think it made the circumstances more dire, having them not finding the master coder stacked the odds that bit extra against them & in my opinion, made the finale to the subplot that much more engaging. I kind of agree that it wasn't totally necessary to the MAIN plotline, but I think the movie wouldn't have been as strong without it.
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Offline ariich

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #317 on: January 07, 2018, 03:14:13 AM »
Yeah but it’s a bit sad that it’s only direct consequence was for the coder to tell the First Order that there were smaller shuttles breaking off. Absolutely nothing in the canto bight story was necessary to have that very unrelated outcome.
The only reason they met DJ was because of how things went down, otherwise they'd have come back with the codebreaker they were supposed to meet. And the only reason everything else afterwards happened the way it did was because they met DJ, who sold them out. The entire final act of the film was a direct consequence.

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Offline Elite

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #318 on: January 07, 2018, 03:50:38 AM »
I think what the Canto Bight stuff also showed us, was that there's essentially a lot more to the First Order / Resistance battles than we've seen in all the films this far. The film showed us multiple angles from which to view all the conflicts happening. In essence, the Canto Bight sequence enriched the Star Wars universe to some account. Also, the 'big reveal' that Rey's parents were apparent nobodies, coupled with the broom boy at the end force-grabbing his broom, shows us that heroes can be born from anywhere. Underneath the seemingly jolly atmosphere of Canto Bight, a rebellion is being born. It was necessary to show this, because it actively speaks 'hope' in a time where the entire resistance is stuck on the Falcon at the end of the film.
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Offline Polarbear

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #319 on: January 07, 2018, 04:03:11 AM »
I've said it before, but i loved the theme that heroes can come from anywhere! Blood of heroes is no guarantee that you become a hero yourself, as seen in Ben/Kylo.

Also can we talk about the throne room scene! I was completely fine that there wasn't a traditional lightsaber duel in this movie. That throne room scene was awesome! Could be one of my favorite action scenes in the entire saga. Insanely well choreographed and shot! It was like straight out of The Matrix!

Offline Elite

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #320 on: January 07, 2018, 04:33:32 AM »
the throne room scene was amazingly well executed. I also didn't mind there being no 'proper' lightsaber battle. Actually, I've read somewhere that stuff like that could potentially get stale. Every Star Wars film features a lightsaber battle, it's not that special anymore to see yet another one. This film did great in that respect on multiple instances; lots of expectations were smashed and killed off. The film really brought some fresh stuff to the table, which was a fine welcome.
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Offline Podaar

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #321 on: January 07, 2018, 05:22:44 AM »
While we're discussing the throne room action scene. What is everyone's view on the lack of "force-acrobatics" in these recent movies. I was very happy that the "prequel" level was abandoned (of course) but I thought the original trilogy was fun for having a few flips and super jumps, especially to help distinguish between the light and dark force users.

I also like the creative choice that Kylo Ren actually uses the force without grace or mastery but like a huge sledge hammer and with brute force. Vader disdainfully and gracefully deflected blaster shots (in spite of his physical limitations) but Ren grabs them in the air like he wants to choke them to death. When Ren fights, he tends to plant his feet wide and bend at the waist like he's ready to take on a hurricane. There's a juvenile "hey look how evil and bad-ass I am" quality to Ren that I think is great too. It makes people underestimate him (I'm looking at you Snoke). He's turning out to be a pretty good manipulator, although it was fun seeing Luke get in the last punch on that front.  :)
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Offline BlackInk

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #322 on: January 07, 2018, 05:52:59 AM »
The only reason they met DJ was because of how things went down, otherwise they'd have come back with the codebreaker they were supposed to meet. And the only reason everything else afterwards happened the way it did was because they met DJ, who sold them out. The entire final act of the film was a direct consequence.

But it’s thematically and dramatically unrelated to everything that went on on Canto Bight. There is a huge bullshit animal cruelty subplot and war profiteering subplot here that played absolutely zero into relevant events. Although the war profiteering stuff was at least somewhat relevant, at least thematically, and I wish they would have focused on that more instead of all the other crap that story line gave us. Yes, the third act is a censequence, but only because DJ overheared a phone call, something that did not need like 30 minutes of really boring set up. Nothing else that happened mattered even though they try to make it seem like it.

”Now it’s worth it.”
I gasped in disbelief at that line because it’s astronomically stupid. They will have rebuilt that city and recaptured those animals tomorrow. They did way too little of value for the story to justify that much time being wasted on their side quest.

Offline ariich

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #323 on: January 07, 2018, 06:12:30 AM »
The only reason they met DJ was because of how things went down, otherwise they'd have come back with the codebreaker they were supposed to meet. And the only reason everything else afterwards happened the way it did was because they met DJ, who sold them out. The entire final act of the film was a direct consequence.
But it’s thematically and dramatically unrelated to everything that went on on Canto Bight. There is a huge bullshit animal cruelty subplot and war profiteering subplot here that played absolutely zero into relevant events. Although the war profiteering stuff was at least somewhat relevant, at least thematically, and I wish they would have focused on that more instead of all the other crap that story line gave us. Yes, the third act is a censequence, but only because DJ overheared a phone call, something that did not need like 30 minutes of really boring set up. Nothing else that happened mattered even though they try to make it seem like it.

”Now it’s worth it.”
I gasped in disbelief at that line because it’s astronomically stupid. They will have rebuilt that city and recaptured those animals tomorrow. They did way too little of value for the story to justify that much time being wasted on their side quest.
That's fine, but there's plenty of that in the original trilogy too. Everything to with Jabba the Hut, for example. And the Ewoks, good lord.

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Offline Elite

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #324 on: January 07, 2018, 06:16:54 AM »
Like people complaining we never got to know who Snoke is or where he came from.. I must say, I am rather intrigued and want to know if there's some deeper connection as well, and I'm sure that if it's relevant we will find out eventually, but are the complainers forgetting that the Emperor in the original trilogy also didn't have any back-story whatsoever? Nobody knew who he was or where he came from, he was just the 'big bad guy'.
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Offline BlackInk

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #325 on: January 07, 2018, 06:25:43 AM »
That's fine, but there's plenty of that in the original trilogy too. Everything to with Jabba the Hut, for example. And the Ewoks, good lord.

I won’t defend the ewok stuff in terms of quality, but at least they joined in the fight against the empire, so purely from a relevance standpoint they weren’t completely pointless. Still pretty ridiculous though.

And while the Jabba stuff isn’t that important other than getting Han out of the carbonite, and the scenes tend to drag a bit, at least it feels more interesting and less preachy than Canto Bight.

Offline ariich

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #326 on: January 07, 2018, 06:31:49 AM »
That's fine, but there's plenty of that in the original trilogy too. Everything to with Jabba the Hut, for example. And the Ewoks, good lord.

I won’t defend the ewok stuff in terms of quality, but at least they joined in the fight against the empire, so purely from a relevance standpoint they weren’t completely pointless. Still pretty ridiculous though.

And while the Jabba stuff isn’t that important other than getting Han out of the carbonite, and the scenes tend to drag a bit, at least it feels more interesting and less preachy than Canto Bight.
But that's not what the complaint was. You found the Canto Bight stuff boring, that's fine, I think I was pretty clear that I'm not talking about whether people like or dislike something, whether it speaks to people, or whatever. That's a matter of taste and that's all cool. My post was that there are dozens of specific complaints trying to justify why the new movie is inherently inferior to others.

This complaint was that the Canto Bight subplot was irrelevant and unnecessary, and my point is (1) it's actually extremely relevant to the main plot in terms of how things play out, and (2) there's plenty of equally on-a-tangent stuff in all the films. One or both of these applies to literally every complaint I've read (again, not counting where people just haven't liked it/enjoyed it or aspects of it, which is fine).

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Offline BlackInk

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #327 on: January 07, 2018, 07:43:59 AM »
Well, aren’t the two different complaints related though? My dislike for the Canto Bight scenes is based both on poor execution and irrelevance to the main plot. I’m not saying there’s nothing of relevance, just not enough to justify all the focus so the whole subplot ends up sticking out like a sore thumb, and that I found it boring only made that worse.

As to if this makes TLJ better or worse than the other SW movies, I don’t really care, I’m certainly not an OT purist or anything. I’m mostly interested in the content of the movie as it relates to the best potential version of itself. And in that area, Canto Bight is the largest offender.

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #328 on: January 07, 2018, 07:48:54 AM »
For me, the difference between Canto and Jabba (in ROTJ) is that without the Jabba/Tatooine storyline to rescue Han, the movie has no meaningful opening sequence, and we lose 30 minutes from the film.  Sure, you could rescue Han in 5 minutes or so, but then the movie is 1:45.  TLJ feels bloated because of Canto (it's already 2:32), and condensing/changing the sequence to get the outcome necessary to the rest of the film wouldn't have hurt it whatsoever.

The biggest takeaway I get from the opening of ROTJ is how much Luke's jedi skills have grown since the end of ESB.  You wouldn't get that from a quick snatch-and-grab.

Plus, Slave Leia.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #329 on: January 07, 2018, 09:30:44 AM »
IMO....they did get the codebreaker they were looking for.   Immediately I thought that the guy wearing the lapel pin looked A) nothing like a "code breaker" of any sort", and B) nothing like the type of people that Maz would ever have in her inner circle.    Plus C) magically finding another (apparently extremely rare) expert code breaker who just happened to be sharing a cell with them is a major issue.   

For those reasons, I never thought even for one second that DJ was anything but the original expert code breaker they had been looking for all along, and I figured that (as gamblers often do) he had lost everything on a bet with the guy who had the lapel pin. 
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Offline lordxizor

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #330 on: January 07, 2018, 10:03:30 AM »
That's what I assumed too.

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #331 on: January 07, 2018, 10:52:22 AM »
That's a word salad - and take it from me, I know word salad
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Offline Adami

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #332 on: January 07, 2018, 11:15:58 AM »
I already explained why I don't think he was the original code breaker. I doubt tiny alien lady would have recommended someone who would so easily betray everyone else. But whatevs.


Also Ariich, I dunno what to tell you. You could literally find a reason to discount every single complaint about anything ever beyond "personally don't like it, but for some reason, I walked out of TLJ thinking "many, a lot of that felt absolutely pointless "when I didn't feel any of that with the other movies (prequels aside). There has to be a reason for that.
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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #333 on: January 07, 2018, 01:43:03 PM »
I already explained why I don't think he was the original code breaker. I doubt tiny alien lady would have recommended someone who would so easily betray everyone else. But whatevs.


Also Ariich, I dunno what to tell you. You could literally find a reason to discount every single complaint about anything ever beyond "personally don't like it, but for some reason, I walked out of TLJ thinking "many, a lot of that felt absolutely pointless "when I didn't feel any of that with the other movies (prequels aside). There has to be a reason for that.

Even with the prequels, I felt there was a point to pretty much all of the sub-plots, even if the acting was atrocious, and the storyline itself was ridiculous.  There was always a point contributing to the bigger picture.  Canto - especially the PETA stuff - I'm not so sure about the point.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #334 on: January 07, 2018, 02:00:52 PM »
Many stories in the sci-fi universe are riddled with anti-hero characters that have earned the trust of many, and then turned out not to be trustworthy, and I don't see why the Star Wars universe would be immune to a character such as that.   It's a big universe.   And the chosen profession (you can call it "code breaker" if you want, but he's a gambler and basically a thief) is automatically shifty in its loyalties.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #335 on: January 07, 2018, 02:04:17 PM »
Don't get me wrong, you can make an argument for that, as well as just about anything else.

You could argue that lizard lazy sent them there just to see the truth about the socio-economic stuff in the galaxy and that it was all just a big lesson.

Problem is, it's just making an argument. The story told us something and didn't give us any reason to doubt what they told us. So I'm just sticking with what the story told us.


Also the story is FILLED with subverted expectations. So him NOT being the real guy actually fits more in line with what Rian was doing for much of the movie,.
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Offline TheOutlawXanadu

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #336 on: January 08, 2018, 07:24:00 AM »
So, I thought The Last Jedi was awesome, and I honestly haven't seen one material complaint that doesn't also apply to the original trilogy. I'm not saying there's any reason that everyone should love or even like it, just that the specific complaints that some people are making a huge deal over are nothing remotely new for the franchise.

Think this is probably my second favourite SW film behind Empire.

I disagree with this as a blanket statement. Some of the complaints? For sure! But I can't think of any of the original films where an entire elongated subplot amounted to virtually nothing and could have been completely cut out without much consequence.


If memory serves, the ten or fifteen minute sequence in Return of the Jedi where our heroes get captured by Ewoks feels similar. It's not an apples-to-apples comparison by any means, but both feel very "bathroom break" and "this could have been done better" to me.
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Offline Architeuthis

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #337 on: January 08, 2018, 10:20:44 AM »
For me, the difference between Canto and Jabba (in ROTJ) is that without the Jabba/Tatooine storyline to rescue Han, the movie has no meaningful opening sequence, and we lose 30 minutes from the film.  Sure, you could rescue Han in 5 minutes or so, but then the movie is 1:45. 

Plus, Slave Leia.

 Exactly, the whole Jabba scene was necessary in ROTJ.  Jabba had a bounty on solos head because he owed him a lot of money. It wasn't gonna be any easy task to rescue Han Solo, so they had to make a pretty extensive scene out of the process.  It was executed very well. I liked how Jabba was totally immune to Jedi mind tricks or use of the Force, lol!
 The Rancor scene was awesome! I remember that monster freaked me out when I saw that movie for the first time in a big Theater (UA 150 in Seattle) at 11 years old.. I would like to see how Jabba aquired that thing and where it came from.
The scene at the Sarlaac pit was awesome too, good way for Boba-fett to go out followed by a nice belch!
 Too bad Lucas had to ruin part of the Jabba Scenes when he added the different song and CGI characters to the music scene with Sy Snootles,, ughh!  The remasters are an epic fail..
 
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 10:26:13 AM by Architeuthis »
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Offline Polarbear

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #338 on: January 08, 2018, 12:00:13 PM »
Return of the Jedi got the short end of the stick when it comes to the remasters!

I don't have problems with the changes to Empire. New Hope changes i can tolerate. But the sing/dance number by the cgi monstrosities in Jabbas palace is wrong on so many levels. Vader shouting NOOO, just destroys the tension in the throne room scene!

For the record, i like the new victory celebration song better than Yub Nub though.

Offline Orbert

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #339 on: January 08, 2018, 01:21:10 PM »
I finally saw The Last Jedi last night.  I thought it was pretty good, but really long.  It had flaws, it had good stuff, it was a Star Wars movie.

I can't think of anything to add that others haven't already said.

Offline Architeuthis

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #340 on: January 08, 2018, 01:24:24 PM »
I do like the new victory song, but I still like the original Yub Nub better. I hated they way the original Anakin ghost was replaced with the Christian Hayden one. I can see why, but it doesn't work. So wrong.
Yeah ROTJ got screwed the worst on the remasters.
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Offline Elite

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #341 on: January 08, 2018, 04:04:10 PM »
Exactly, the whole Jabba scene was necessary in ROTJ.

Was it now? There's what, three years(?) between the events of ANH and ESB and there was no way whatsoever Han could have paid back the bounty on his head?

Apart from that, the overall improbability of the entire first half hour of ROTJ makes it my least favourite 30 minutes out of the entire original trilogy.
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Offline Architeuthis

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #342 on: January 08, 2018, 04:14:56 PM »
Exactly, the whole Jabba scene was necessary in ROTJ.

Was it now? There's what, three years(?) between the events of ANH and ESB and there was no way whatsoever Han could have paid back the bounty on his head?

Apart from that, the overall improbability of the entire first half hour of ROTJ makes it my least favourite 30 minutes out of the entire original trilogy.
Well that's just weird, because the whole Jabba Scene kicks arss!  :biggrin:
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 08:46:58 PM by Architeuthis »
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Offline BlackInk

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #343 on: January 12, 2018, 06:43:58 AM »

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #344 on: January 12, 2018, 07:34:34 AM »
^^^  :lol

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #345 on: January 12, 2018, 08:08:35 AM »
That whole thing with Rose and Finn was the biggest WTF in the entire movie for me.  For one, Rose was the younger sister of someone we'd seen die valiantly, and I thought she was supposed to be like 12 years old, but okay I figured you're never too young to join the resistance.  Then they went on that whole mission to find the hacker, didn't find him but did manage to find a guy who claimed to be a hacker, but then he betrayed them and the mission failed.  Nice waste of half an hour there.

Then Finn is ready to sacrifice himself to take out the nuclear battering ram thing, and Rose takes him out.  Why!?  After wasting the entire movie, I figured Finn was gonna at least go out with a heroic exit, but no.  Somewhere in there, she kissed him, and I finally realized that she's not supposed to be 12.  15 maybe?  But that whole thing made no fucking sense.

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #346 on: January 12, 2018, 08:12:58 AM »
That whole thing with Rose and Finn was the biggest WTF in the entire movie for me.  For one, Rose was the younger sister of someone we'd seen die valiantly, and I thought she was supposed to be like 12 years old, but okay I figured you're never too young to join the resistance.  Then they went on that whole mission to find the hacker, didn't find him but did manage to find a guy who claimed to be a hacker, but then he betrayed them and the mission failed.  Nice waste of half an hour there.

Then Finn is ready to sacrifice himself to take out the nuclear battering ram thing, and Rose takes him out.  Why!?  After wasting the entire movie, I figured Finn was gonna at least go out with a heroic exit, but no.  Somewhere in there, she kissed him, and I finally realized that she's not supposed to be 12.  15 maybe?  But that whole thing made no fucking sense.

What? I know asians look young, but she's 28 man. She's older than John Boyega. :lol
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #347 on: January 12, 2018, 08:34:26 AM »
I guess it was my first impression and I couldn't get past it.  In that whatever-suit she was wearing when we first met her, she looked like a little kid in pajamas, the suit was too big for her and I figured it was supposed to be that way.  I didn't help that Boyega isn't exactly tall, and she was much smaller that him.  I thought she was supposed to be a kid, and even as the story unfolded, I couldn't shake that image.

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #348 on: January 12, 2018, 08:50:58 AM »
We didn’t see much of Paige, but after getting a whole movie with Rose, I love Paige. Wish we could have gotten that sister for all of it.

Offline The Walrus

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #349 on: January 12, 2018, 08:58:16 AM »
Rose was a waste of time and money, shouldn't have even been in the film other than a throwaway character as Finn tries to leave. But nope... ugh
From a Mega Man Legends island jamming power metal to a Walrus listening to black metal, I like your story arc.
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