Creative styles between Sherinian & Rudess

[Nekov]

Well, DT is a band, not JR's project and in that context it makes a lot of sense that the rest of the members add up to what Jordan comes up with because that is supposed to happen with a band. In most ocations the end result is better, in DT specifically, because it's not a keyboard driven band, it's a whole. And as people noted, his solo albums and most of his works with other people (Levin, Minneman, Rudess, LTE) do showcase his variety and most of the songrwriting he leaves out of DT becuase it doesn't make sense in that context.

Not being a musician I can't comment on the Hardware vs Software thing that you mention but I do get that you like what Derek does better and that is fine. Lots of people might like The Edge because even though he is an avergae guitar player at best, he is able to create a wide variety of sounds solely on his knowledge of patches, pedals and stuff so that's ok. But the fact that you like it better doesn't mean that everyone prefers that 

[bosk1]

example, when Jordan got the Continuum he used it for a very iconic intro. Octavarium.... so you get the sense of its power as a synthetic instrument. But thats all.... hasnt been used since to create iconic intros, just sliding around because he can.

Well, yeah, he hasn't used it on intros.  But I think he has continued to use it very effectively.  I know you don't care for the freestyle solo at the end of TDEN, but I think that's a great use of just going crazy to use it as a unique sounding soloing instrument.  You couldn't really get a "traditional" keyboard to sound exactly like that, with the uniqueness in both phrasing, tone bending, and harmonics that the continuum gives.  You can get close with pedals and ribbons and such.  But it's still a very unique sound.

That said, I will agree that outside of that song, the continuum was not really utilized well on SC.  But I said at the time BCSL came out that it was the first time I really felt like he was using it thoughout the album in varied and creative ways that utilized it as an instrument rather than simply as an effect.  That jumped out at me right away as being really cool.

...and then he ditched it next album and moved on to the next toy. 

[bill1971]

For example, when Jordan got the Continuum he used it for a very iconic intro. Octavarium.... so you get the sense of its power as a synthetic instrument. But thats all.... hasnt been used since to create iconic intros, just sliding around because he can. The Enemy Within, Jordan uses the iPad to just slide his fingers around quickly.... the idea of it being an instrument is lost because to me, looking at the DT Jordan era and solo stuff, there is only 1 iconic epic intro from Jordan....

Earlier in the thread you said it was just the Continuum that hasn't been used for 'iconic intros' now it's the entire Jordan era except Octavarium that he hasn't made an iconic intro? Strongly disagree... what is 'iconic' is debatable but he's had a lot of amazing intros to songs over the nearly 20 years he's been in the band. (also, it's The Enemy Inside, not within )

I dunno, Derek seems to 'slide his fingers around quickly' throughout all of Psychotic Symphony. I don't hear much memorable or iconic there. d:^)

(Iconic is a loaded word, anyway. It's not like it's an easy feat to create something that can be attributed that word, and it's almost impossible to do so if you're actively trying to chase that term.)

I didnt say the just the Continuum hasnt been used....
I said as you quoted... When the Continuum came out you can hear it used as an Iconic intro used for the beginning of Octavarium.. but the rest isnt all Jordan... the band brought their parts to write the rest...
SDOIT, This is another example... he is using orchestral sounds to make an intro.. yeah it sounded great and even better on SCORE.... But to me that's the extent of his creative writing.... where as i remember watching a youtube interview with Derek & Mike about SoA writing. Was mentioned that God Of The Sun was written in full by Derek. Mike didnt wanna change it, said to keep it as is.....
I havent heard anything in DT where Jordan walked in with a full piece of music and the band thinks "yh, lets do it"....
This is why im asking about the creative differences between the 2.
I would like to see Jordan write a full DT song. Would be interesting to hear...
And someone mentioned the changes through SFAM onwards....
He is still using the Pig Riff patch.... The Bells & Xylophones patches.. and his Liquid Lead was made up of Brass instruments on Distortion effects within the Kurzwiel....
He has changed maybe 6 different lead patches since then. But like a Guitarist making a style their own, Satriani, Yngwie, Page.... Its a signiture... thats why i find Jordans patches, as amazing as they are, are thinner..
And Dereks is more recognisable because he has that signiture patch.
Which again, as i am a patch designer, i can heat the evolution of the sound....
I think others cannot hear it because they either dont want to, or cant...
But i like reading different opinions.
Keep them coming.... always good to have friendly discussions

i remember watching a youtube interview with Derek & Mike about SoA writing. Was mentioned that God Of The Sun was written in full by Derek. Mike didnt wanna change it, said to keep it as is.....

Because when you allow yourself only a week to write an album to be handed a fully completed song is a gift.

I am not sure why Derek being more recognizable because of a patch he uses is such a positive. To not evolve your sound in 20 years I don't think as a musician is a good argument.

[The Walrus]

I personally don't care if a keyboardist or any other musician "evolves" their sound or not. That's just me, though. It personally doesn't bother me that Derek hasn't changed his sound all that much. He's got a monster lead, and like most synth players, if you find a good synth lead you really like, you're gonna stick with it. Jens Johansson has essentially used the same lead sound ever since the Yngwie days, and in my opinion it's the best synth lead on the planet. It's so good that, 20 years after making it, keyboardists were still begging to figure out the parameters of his lead tone. I believe only Janne Wirman of Children of Bodom ever got the secrets from Jens, as you can hear it on the Warmen albums.

It's not about having a repertoire of different sounds at your disposal that you're constantly tweaking and switching and evolving, but rather, how you use them. To me this is not unlike arguing about which guitarist is more creative based on their arsenal of pedals, which doesn't really make sense to me. I've always wanted to hear Derek dive more into the crazy world of synth sounds that Jordan has adopted, but on the other hand, maybe that's just not his bag, it might not sound good if Derek tried all that stuff because it's not what he's into playing.

[erwinrafael]

I just hope, though, that he won't constantly make fun of other keyboardists who are into using new sounds and patches.

The Del Fluvio Brothers are really fit together. What you hear from them back in 1997 is basically what you would still hear today.

[bosk1]

I personally don't care if a keyboardist or any other musician "evolves" their sound or not. That's just me, though. It personally doesn't bother me that Derek hasn't changed his sound all that much. He's got a monster lead, and like most synth players, if you find a good synth lead you really like, you're gonna stick with it.

...

It's not about having a repertoire of different sounds at your disposal that you're constantly tweaking and switching and evolving, but rather, how you use them.

Yeah, I agree.  And so, to me, it comes back to what I said (or tried to say) earlier.  I think both Jordan and Derek do what works for them, and do it pretty well.  For me personally, I not only think Jordan is the better keyboard player, but I also like his playing more than I like Derek's.  But that doesn't take anything at all away from Derek's own playing or his creativity. 

[rumborak]

Overall JR is definitely the better keyboardist, but oddly enough I like DS's piano playing better than JR's.

[King Postwhore]

Overall JR is definitely the better keyboardist, but oddly enough I like DS's piano playing better than JR's.

I always though that Moore and DS were a counterpoint to the chaos of the other musicians.  They were the glue, the melody.

[shadystraz360]

Bosk raised the point i think adds to what i hve been saying... about jumping between toys on different albums...
Dumping one from one album to the next...
This is why i find his sounds to be thin because of the lack of consistancy... its like he is still trying to find something unique..
What he does create sound great but originality is lost when he jumps onto synth type instruments and just slides around doesnt create "originality" for me as a patch designer...

And looking to Dereks sounds.... he adapts as he uses the Nord Lead 3 in Signs Of The Times, Lost In Oblivion, Opus Maximus (just to name a few)
He sticks with and adapts his rig.
But what i also really enjoy is his tone through the B3..
The Hammond is unique in every way. Keith Emerson, Jon Lord.... the B3 is the greatest Organ sound with the Elec guitar ever... Jon Lord stuck with the Hammond through his entire Deep Purple career and was praised for using such an instrument... DS brings out its power in Divine Addiction. And for E.L.P style in Labrynth.... you cant get that with an App...

I just feel like Jordan, despite his amazing selection, is still searching for something unique... Derek has his unique style. And is unmatched....
Thats how i feel about the creative differences.
And i see some do agree with me so its not like im alone on this thread...
At the end of the day this thread has created some interesting discussions and ideas.....
So i hope more opinions keep flowing. I enjoy discussing these topics

[The Walrus]

Man. I dunno. You're a patch designer, so surely you understand a musician's thirst/search for 'more' sounds right? That's all Jordan does. He's ALWAYS looking to do new things - he has his tried and true synth lead and other go-to sounds like anybody else but that doesn't mean he isn't still looking for new things to do. That's the magic of being so creative! And he has several things on stage. You say Derek is unique because he has a Nord and a B3 and all that... but so does every other keyboardist. Jordan's unique because he has his other instruments - what you deride as "toys." They're both keyboardists exploring the wide wide world of sound. Why does it have to be a competition or viewed as one inherently being "better" than someone else? Why can't they both be doing similar things, achieving similar (yet different) results?

I just find it strange... Derek also seems to view playing music as a competition of sorts, judging by his comments towards Jordan and DT... but Jordan is the one not paying them any mind and continuing to explore music and having fun. That's more important than any sort of "this guy is more creative, more unique, better" discussion imo.

I also like having these discussions btw. I'm not trying to shut you down. Just offering counterpoint (pun intended)

[bosk1]

Yeah, other than the first sentence, that is where you are I depart and I don't really find anything you said to hold up.  To quote Luke Skywalker, "Every word in that sentence post is wrong."

I just find it strange... Derek also seems to view playing music as a competition of sorts, judging by his comments towards Jordan and DT... but Jordan is the one not paying them any mind and continuing to explore music and having fun. That's more important than any sort of "this guy is more creative, more unique, better" discussion imo.

Nailed it.

[noxon]

I really don't see the point in putting down the tools a musician chooses to use. I mean, the iPad (as an example) is a more powerful computer and sound generator than the keyboards that existed in the late nineties were and can create fuller and more complex sounds due to sheer processing power. Just because you can play on it with an on screen tool doesn't mean the actual technology behind the instruments available is any less impressive. And the other instruments (such as the Continuum - which more or less has been replaced by the Roli Seaboard now.

And it's not like Jordan doesn't enjoy old style synths too - I mean, just look at these videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZosI-966HLw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9Q1GZFL-ZU

[bill1971]

Man. I dunno. You're a patch designer, so surely you understand a musician's thirst/search for 'more' sounds right? That's all Jordan does. He's ALWAYS looking to do new things - he has his tried and true synth lead and other go-to sounds like anybody else but that doesn't mean he isn't still looking for new things to do. That's the magic of being so creative! And he has several things on stage. You say Derek is unique because he has a Nord and a B3 and all that... but so does every other keyboardist. Jordan's unique because he has his other instruments - what you deride as "toys." They're both keyboardists exploring the wide wide world of sound. Why does it have to be a competition or viewed as one inherently being "better" than someone else? Why can't they both be doing similar things, achieving similar (yet different) results?

I just find it strange... Derek also seems to view playing music as a competition of sorts, judging by his comments towards Jordan and DT... but Jordan is the one not paying them any mind and continuing to explore music and having fun. That's more important than any sort of "this guy is more creative, more unique, better" discussion imo.

I also like having these discussions btw. I'm not trying to shut you down. Just offering counterpoint (pun intended)

Very astute point about DS and I think MP viewing music as a competition. Thus the retweets by MP when people say DT is not as good without him and DS's tweets make that obvious.

[KevShmev]

I'll take Rudess having a huge hand in writing many DT classics over Sherinian writing a blah song like God of the Sun any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

[shadystraz360]

Interesting views coming forward again... thats why im glad i am in forums such as this were we can chat and talk freely...
And its not putting down tools of a Musician. But as i am a musician myself, i personally dont see the iPad as a musical instrument that should be used on stage as a substitute for real instruments...
I remember when Jordan had the Mellotron during the Chaos In Motion tour. It was great to see an expansion of gear using vintage synths. But then he kinda downgraded and rests heavily on just the Kronos, and uses more synthetic pads, such as the Continuum, Seaboard (used during the Astonishing)... he uses them because he is also promoting. His Geo apps on the iPad. He used Samplewiz before hand when he was playing the intro to Endless Sacrifice.
Its great hearing these sounds but these take away the power of real keyboards and gear.
Thats why i mentioned the Nord & Hammond because no amount of apps or patches can compare to these one of a kind instruments....

Think of it when driving a car, you cant put a muffler on a VW polo and expect it to drive like a Mustang GT....

Dont get me wrong, i enjoy the sounds used by Jordan, i have used them myself.... but when i look at how they are constructed, i see the same stuff... his leads use the same built in structure. Because he is using the same Oscillators, and mixes up the internal FX’s to create the sound... so its not like i am just talking random nonesense, anyone who knows what i do would know i have designed all of Jordans sounds on Korg keyboards... because they arent that difficult
but with Dereks you cant do that, because he goes external, as he explained in videos before with his pedals... which makes it, to me, more unique as its not something you can just copy, take more of an effort to construct because of its complex external design... which makes them a hell of a lot harder to re-create... believe me.. i’ve tried
And still trying i might add.... thats why prefer Dereks sounds because they present a challenge and have more depth of power compared to Jordans

[Nekov]

As I said before, it seems to me that what you are talking about is mostly based on your technical knowledge on how patches and keyboards work whereas the rest of us who are ignorant about how that works base our opinion on melody, songwriting and skill. So the more this goes on the more it seems to me that we are talking apples and you are talking oranges. You can have some great OJ, you can haev some great Cyder, they're both great and you can like both and have a preference but are hard to compare because they are very different 

[shadystraz360]

I saw those links and it kinda adds to my point....
I didnt say Jordan doesnt like using vintage synths, what im saying is uterlising them to their full potential instead of going to the software side. Jordan doesnt take this keyboards and use them. Instead i find it cheating. as he said, "sampling them into the other keyboards". Thats not the same thing..... and looking at the demos he does, he creates great rhythms and cool techno sounds, but it still falls into the same aspect of being too thin.... there isnt any power in my ears. Being able to LEAD with the instruments is key....

For example, when i hear the power in ALIVE or the melodic soul of God Of The Sun... i havent heard that in Jordans playing. He does some great soloing in his solo album "Rhythm Of Time" but again, its not as gutsy....
FII added pure GUTS to the keyboard section....
Just Let Me Breath is a great example when you hear them live from both OIAL & LSFAM... Jordans leads dont do the song any justice because it is weaker....
Would be great if someone could find a song where Jordan uses RAW GUTS to solo with, but i havent heard it yet. And personally find it disappointing....
As i know he could elevate what he has higher, if he had the oppertunity

[The Walrus]

"Real instruments." Silly. This is the same argument that was used against keyboards in metal in the 80s. They are instruments. Just because they don't fit the traditional mold of guitar/bass/keyboard/drums/vocals doesn't mean they aren't instruments. They aren't lesser instruments than the rest being played in the band...

so its not like i am just talking random nonesense, anyone who knows what i do would know i have designed all of Jordans sounds on Korg keyboards... because they arent that difficult

I'm a keyboardist myself so frankly I'd like to call complete bullshit on this, and even if they were easy to create, so what? Now it matters how complexly made a patch is? Nope, can't buy that. We get it, dude - you design patches, but that doesn't mean you're the authority on who is more creative just because one of them used more oscillators than the other, and Jordan is somehow not 'gutsy' because his patches use more portamento and not enough attack.

EDIT: A synth is a keyboard is a synth... all they are is replicating noises and inventing sounds of their own. That's exactly what Jordan's apps do. It's unfair to dismiss them as 'toys' and 'not real instruments' like they're taking away from keyboards. They're doing the same thing, in a different form

[erwinrafael]

So the iPad that produces electronic music is not a real instrument while a vintage synth that produces electronic music is a real instrument?

[Cruithne]

Think of it when driving a car, you cant put a muffler on a VW polo and expect it to drive like a Mustang GT....

How about I think of it as when driving a car and I need to land on an aircraft carrier 20 miles offshore I can't just attach rotor blades to the roof and expect it to fly like a helicopter, instead?

Sure, if there came a point where Jordan wasn't actually performing and was just prodding an iPad occasionally then it would detract from what the live DT experience is, in large part, about. However, I'm not precious about what technology he uses to generate his sounds and I like that he embraces new technology.

Incidentally using "as a musician" to try and bolster an argument is hardly going to fly on a DT forum, of all places. I'm going to guess that at least 90% of the forum users can count themselves as musicians to some degree or another.

[bosk1]

Yeah, Kattoelox and erwinrafael pretty much nailed exactly what is wrong with your arguments, Shady. I will just add: At some point in time, those "vintage synths" that you seem to hold sacred as "real instruments" were the new "toys" that some musicians looked down their noses at.  Same poor argument; different day.

[Adami]

How about this.....


Old school synths weigh more. Keyboards have more weight? Therefore his argument carries more weight.

[bill1971]

shadystraz360 just curious, do you know Derek personally? Like a friend, family member or even are him? Not an insult, just a vibe I maybe incorrectly picked up.

[shadystraz360]

shadystraz360 just curious, do you know Derek personally? Like a friend, family member or even are him? Not an insult, just a vibe I maybe incorrectly picked up.

I dont know Derek personally... i can honestly say i have never met the guy. I only know his music. Im just a keyboard fan. But im a fan of both Derek & Jordan. I enjoy both lots of styles, i just express more interest from one to the other. I have asked him questions about patches and he assisted many years ago. However it didnt go down well with his manager. I could have been sued for copyright 😅😅....
Im just here as a DT fan as well. I have all albums including several bootlegs. So im not here to bash anyone. Just enjoy lively debates with fellow fans regarding different subjects

[bill1971]

shadystraz360 just curious, do you know Derek personally? Like a friend, family member or even are him? Not an insult, just a vibe I maybe incorrectly picked up.

I dont know Derek personally... i can honestly say i have never met the guy. I only know his music. Im just a keyboard fan. But im a fan of both Derek & Jordan. I enjoy both lots of styles, i just express more interest from one to the other. I have asked him questions about patches and he assisted many years ago. However it didnt go down well with his manager. I could have been sued for copyright 😅😅....
Im just here as a DT fan as well. I have all albums including several bootlegs. So im not here to bash anyone. Just enjoy lively debates with fellow fans regarding different subjects

Cool.

[shadystraz360]

I only started this thread to gather thoughts and ideas about the different creative styles...
Im a Keyboard player so it would make me really stupid to downgrade one keyboard player over the other... instead i only expressed an interest for one higher than the other because of how they aim to achive something special compared to the other... that doesnt make one less significant. Just i personally find Dereks sound to be more "energetic" compared to Jordans.....

But i like the ideas that pop up on this thread. Its all good discussions.... and i hope to have more as long as its within the rules as i try to maintain that objective of lively discussions

[NoseofNicko]

Edit: NM.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

One thing I will say about the two is that because JR has less of a "guitarish" lead approach (and thus many of his leads have less attack on them) that does mean a bunch of his solos get a bit indecipherable to me just because of how fast he plays and how much bending he does, leaving them short on impact. DS' more overdriven sound, as well as his slightly less technical soloing style, are a little more immune to that problem. JR goes in that direction occasionally--the tone he uses on the Zen Riffer, e.g.,--but I feel like a number of his leads would benefit from it.

Overall, though, the idea that JR is less inventive than DS just doesn't hold water. DS is pretty clearly a more inside-the-box thinker when it comes to keyboards than JR is--heck, the "cheesy ass gadgets" comment itself speaks volumes about that. Not that there's anything wrong with staying inside a particular sonic box when you execute it well; not everyone has to go careening off into iPad land. As with anything musical, the more risks you take, the more, well, risk there is that the results won't be great.

[rumborak]

Anybody who declares a iPad not to be an instrument but says a Mellotron is one, has clearly never looked inside a Mellotron Technologically those things are a desperate attempt of the 60s to use the latest technology to create an instrument.

[bosk1]

shadystraz360 just curious, do you know Derek personally? Like a friend, family member or even are him? Not an insult, just a vibe I maybe incorrectly picked up.

I dont know Derek personally... i can honestly say i have never met the guy. I only know his music. Im just a keyboard fan.

That seems to read a bit different from one of your first posts here where you held yourself out as someone who was "working with" Derek on some projects and was going to be passing on questions to him for video Q&A sessions, and where you certainly implied that you at least somewhat knew him.

[shadystraz360]

shadystraz360 just curious, do you know Derek personally? Like a friend, family member or even are him? Not an insult, just a vibe I maybe incorrectly picked up.

I dont know Derek personally... i can honestly say i have never met the guy. I only know his music. Im just a keyboard fan.

That seems to read a bit different from one of your first posts here where you held yourself out as someone who was "working with" Derek on some projects and was going to be passing on questions to him for video Q&A sessions, and where you certainly implied that you at least somewhat knew him.

Yes thats why i said that i got in trouble with his manager...
One of the things i was in trouble for was saying "i am working with him". Yes i sent those questions years ago but my mistake was assuming i was working with him.... not that i "knew him". which i shouldnt have done. It was highly presumptious on my part to when all i was doing was passing questions over but i got it into my head that meant i worked with the guy... which again, didnt go down well... Fortunatly they accepted my apologies and i have tried to steer clear from contacting or requesting help. I have still shared links or commented and stuff but i gotta be careful i dont make the same error... as i was told "im not his co-worker, im a fan"... as you can imagine they werent best pleased

[shadystraz360]

shadystraz360 just curious, do you know Derek personally? Like a friend, family member or even are him? Not an insult, just a vibe I maybe incorrectly picked up.

I dont know Derek personally... i can honestly say i have never met the guy. I only know his music. Im just a keyboard fan.

That seems to read a bit different from one of your first posts here where you held yourself out as someone who was "working with" Derek on some projects and was going to be passing on questions to him for video Q&A sessions, and where you certainly implied that you at least somewhat knew him.

Yes thats why i said that i got in trouble with his manager...
One of the things i was in trouble for was saying "i am working with him". Yes i sent those questions years ago but my mistake was assuming i was working with him.... not that i "knew him". which i shouldnt have done. It was highly presumptious on my part to when all i was doing was passing questions over but i got it into my head that meant i worked with the guy... which again, didnt go down well... Fortunatly they accepted my apologies and i have tried to steer clear from contacting or requesting help. I have still shared links or commented and stuff but i gotta be careful i dont make the same error... as i was told "im not his co-worker, im a fan"... as you can imagine they werent best pleased.

EDIT: And its true. I have never met him

[bill1971]

shadystraz360 just curious, do you know Derek personally? Like a friend, family member or even are him? Not an insult, just a vibe I maybe incorrectly picked up.

I dont know Derek personally... i can honestly say i have never met the guy. I only know his music. Im just a keyboard fan.

That seems to read a bit different from one of your first posts here where you held yourself out as someone who was "working with" Derek on some projects and was going to be passing on questions to him for video Q&A sessions, and where you certainly implied that you at least somewhat knew him.

Yes thats why i said that i got in trouble with his manager...
One of the things i was in trouble for was saying "i am working with him". Yes i sent those questions years ago but my mistake was assuming i was working with him.... not that i "knew him". which i shouldnt have done. It was highly presumptious on my part to when all i was doing was passing questions over but i got it into my head that meant i worked with the guy... which again, didnt go down well... Fortunatly they accepted my apologies and i have tried to steer clear from contacting or requesting help. I have still shared links or commented and stuff but i gotta be careful i dont make the same error... as i was told "im not his co-worker, im a fan"... as you can imagine they werent best pleased

How did his manager knew you said that?

[shadystraz360]

shadystraz360 just curious, do you know Derek personally? Like a friend, family member or even are him? Not an insult, just a vibe I maybe incorrectly picked up.

I dont know Derek personally... i can honestly say i have never met the guy. I only know his music. Im just a keyboard fan.

That seems to read a bit different from one of your first posts here where you held yourself out as someone who was "working with" Derek on some projects and was going to be passing on questions to him for video Q&A sessions, and where you certainly implied that you at least somewhat knew him.

Yes thats why i said that i got in trouble with his manager...
One of the things i was in trouble for was saying "i am working with him". Yes i sent those questions years ago but my mistake was assuming i was working with him.... not that i "knew him". which i shouldnt have done. It was highly presumptious on my part to when all i was doing was passing questions over but i got it into my head that meant i worked with the guy... which again, didnt go down well... Fortunatly they accepted my apologies and i have tried to steer clear from contacting or requesting help. I have still shared links or commented and stuff but i gotta be careful i dont make the same error... as i was told "im not his co-worker, im a fan"... as you can imagine they werent best pleased

How did his manager knew you said that?

I mentioned it in another thread. I basically had a big mouth. And made an error... but i did it in several locations. And it wasnt private either...
Its all water under the bridge now anyway, and many years ago. So i not worth bringing up ancient history...

Would rather move forward. And continue to discuss the threads title. Creative differences...
Currentlt listening to JR "Time Crunch"...