Creative styles between Sherinian & Rudess

[shadystraz360]

https://www.keyboardmag.com/lessons/the-art-of-synth-soloing-derek-sherinian

Looking to gather thoughts on this article.
While i have admired the many sounds Jordan has created during his time in DT. I have always been interested in making my synth sound BIGGER than what it is........
But i would like to see what you DT fanatics think regarding the creative differences between Jordans Piano style and Dereks Attitude style

[The Walrus]

I'm not really sure what that last sentence is supposed to mean but in short, I think Derek's keyboard sounds are rougher, grittier, "nastier" if you will. "Snarling" is a good word to describe it, I think. Sometimes I enjoy it, but other times I don't, like Figaro's Whore, I really do not enjoy that style of keyboard shred or the sounds he uses, but that's very rare.

Jordan's synth leads are smoother and more elegant and pleasing to the ear, like the theme to Solitary Shell or the synth solos on Along for the Ride and Beneath the Surface. Those are the kind of sounds I really like. But Jordan also does some incredible synth stuff on his solo albums that I've never heard any other keyboardist come close to doing, there's a plethora of stuff he just never does in Dream Theater because it's too 'out there' even for them.

[shadystraz360]

I'm not really sure what that last sentence is supposed to mean but in short, I think Derek's keyboard sounds are rougher, grittier, "nastier" if you will. "Snarling" is a good word to describe it, I think. Sometimes I enjoy it, but other times I don't, like Figaro's Whore, I really do not enjoy that style of keyboard shred or the sounds he uses, but that's very rare.

Jordan's synth leads are smoother and more elegant and pleasing to the ear, like the theme to Solitary Shell or the synth solos on Along for the Ride and Beneath the Surface. Those are the kind of sounds I really like. But Jordan also does some incredible synth stuff on his solo albums that I've never heard any other keyboardist come close to doing, there's a plethora of stuff he just never does in Dream Theater because it's too 'out there' even for them.

I like Jordans range in many areas of DT music. I do think he could be a bit more aggressive though...
When you hear "Just Let Me Breath" from both live versions - Once In A LiveTime & Live Scenes From A Memory - Jordan's lead is a thinner patch. Its not as beefy as Dereks lead..
While i enjoy the leads used by Jordan in both solo and DT work, the guy is very creative, I have always felt he could meat it up a bit. Otherwise its just like a vegan patch...
But thats just my thought on that..

[bosk1]

I'm not really sure what that last sentence is supposed to mean but in short, I think Derek's keyboard sounds are rougher, grittier, "nastier" if you will. "Snarling" is a good word to describe it, I think. Sometimes I enjoy it, but other times I don't, like Figaro's Whore, I really do not enjoy that style of keyboard shred or the sounds he uses, but that's very rare.

Jordan's synth leads are smoother and more elegant and pleasing to the ear, like the theme to Solitary Shell or the synth solos on Along for the Ride and Beneath the Surface. Those are the kind of sounds I really like. But Jordan also does some incredible synth stuff on his solo albums that I've never heard any other keyboardist come close to doing, there's a plethora of stuff he just never does in Dream Theater because it's too 'out there' even for them.

I like Jordans range in many areas of DT music. I do think he could be a bit more aggressive though...
When you hear "Just Let Me Breath" from both live versions - Once In A LiveTime & Live Scenes From A Memory - Jordan's lead is a thinner patch. Its not as beefy as Dereks lead..
While i enjoy the leads used by Jordan in both solo and DT work, the guy is very creative, I have always felt he could meat it up a bit. Otherwise its just like a vegan patch...
But thats just my thought on that..

I think what you are hitting on is a preference for the aspect of Derek's playing that makes him fairly unique as a keyboard player: he approaches keyboard like a guitar.  He has made no bones about that fact, and I think it is telling that in the videos that are on that interview, Derek discusses guitarists (Rhodes, Van Halen, Malmsteen, Vai, Gilmore) that influence his soloing, rather than keyboardists.  Now, I'm not saying he is just a guitar-player-wannabe that got stuck playing keyboard, and I'm not saying his approach is inferior or anything like that.  His approach is 100% valid.  I'm just pointing out that he is very unique in that he brings a lot more guitar attitude and psychology to his keyboard playing than most keyboardists.  That is part of his signature sound and style.  And I think that is a bit part of what you are getting at above.  I disagree that his sound is "meatier."  But I do agree that it is often more aggressive than Jordan's (or most keyboardists' for that matter), and that that is largely because that aggressiveness more typically associated with guitar is part of what Derek brings to keyboard.  It's one of the things that sets Derek apart, but can also make him harder to digest for some.  I know that for me, back when I first heard him on FII (I didn't get the ACOS EP until much later), it was offputting.  And I know plenty of others felt that way as well.  But over time, I could appreciate what he was doing and why.  I will also say that I think that style works well for SOA.     

[Nekov]

I think it all depends what you are looking for. I like Rudess more but becuase his synths are usually more melody driven and as you say, less aggresive that Derek's. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy Derek, Hell's Kitchen is in my top 5 DT songs, but the kind of music Rudess does, both on DT and solo appeal more to me.

[shadystraz360]

I'm not really sure what that last sentence is supposed to mean but in short, I think Derek's keyboard sounds are rougher, grittier, "nastier" if you will. "Snarling" is a good word to describe it, I think. Sometimes I enjoy it, but other times I don't, like Figaro's Whore, I really do not enjoy that style of keyboard shred or the sounds he uses, but that's very rare.

Jordan's synth leads are smoother and more elegant and pleasing to the ear, like the theme to Solitary Shell or the synth solos on Along for the Ride and Beneath the Surface. Those are the kind of sounds I really like. But Jordan also does some incredible synth stuff on his solo albums that I've never heard any other keyboardist come close to doing, there's a plethora of stuff he just never does in Dream Theater because it's too 'out there' even for them.

I like Jordans range in many areas of DT music. I do think he could be a bit more aggressive though...
When you hear "Just Let Me Breath" from both live versions - Once In A LiveTime & Live Scenes From A Memory - Jordan's lead is a thinner patch. Its not as beefy as Dereks lead..
While i enjoy the leads used by Jordan in both solo and DT work, the guy is very creative, I have always felt he could meat it up a bit. Otherwise its just like a vegan patch...
But thats just my thought on that..

I think what you are hitting on is a preference for the aspect of Derek's playing that makes him fairly unique as a keyboard player: he approaches keyboard like a guitar.  He has made no bones about that fact, and I think it is telling that in the videos that are on that interview, Derek discusses guitarists (Rhodes, Van Halen, Malmsteen, Vai, Gilmore) that influence his soloing, rather than keyboardists.  Now, I'm not saying he is just a guitar-player-wannabe that got stuck playing keyboard, and I'm not saying his approach is inferior or anything like that.  His approach is 100% valid.  I'm just pointing out that he is very unique in that he brings a lot more guitar attitude and psychology to his keyboard playing than most keyboardists.  That is part of his signature sound and style.  And I think that is a bit part of what you are getting at above.  I disagree that his sound is "meatier."  But I do agree that it is often more aggressive than Jordan's (or most keyboardists' for that matter), and that that is largely because that aggressiveness more typically associated with guitar is part of what Derek brings to keyboard.  It's one of the things that sets Derek apart, but can also make him harder to digest for some.  I know that for me, back when I first heard him on FII (I didn't get the ACOS EP until much later), it was offputting.  And I know plenty of others felt that way as well.  But over time, I could appreciate what he was doing and why.  I will also say that I think that style works well for SOA.     

Its what drives the music for me....
Songs like "Constant Motion", "These Walls", "Shattered Fortress" where Jordans keyboards are noticable and forceful are great. But for me it just seems to lack a certain spice..
Its true what you say Bosk about Dereks aggresiveness in his playing, i just think that was a key ingredient in FII which i would like to find more of in DT

[erwinrafael]

Derek played my favorite key solo in DT songs: Trial of Tears. That was so well-composed, woth the right balance of melody and shred. The build uo is amazing.

That said, I find Derek's sound lacking in variety, especially in-song. I watched the other day Jordan's vid playing BAI, and I am amazed at the variety of sounds he used, all of which made sense and enhanced the song.

[Architeuthis]

The keyboard player from Nightwish (Tuomas) should almost be in this discussion. He has some unique sounds and is a fantastic player. He's such a great song writer and composer and looks like a seasoned rocker on stage.. 

Sorry, not trying to derail the thread. We might as well bring Rick Wakeman into this.. 

[shadystraz360]

Derek played my favorite key solo in DT songs: Trial of Tears. That was so well-composed, woth the right balance of melody and shred. The build uo is amazing

I tend to agree, Trial Of Tears is incredible.
Dereks soloing is extremely melodic here. I felt that also in Burning My Soul. He rips right through that song and absolutely completes it.

But thats what i like about his sounds. You hear how its evolved from Falling Into Infinity, to Planet X then to Sons Of Apollo... his sounds have expanded and gotten bigger and more powerful.
When I hear Jordans sounds, its usually predictable. Piano, bells, pads, xylophones and Pig Riff... while they are always enjoyable to hear and make the music interesting, i like to hear more power..
With Dereks he usually modulates between different types of Monster sounds and patches. And i enjoyed watching the vid where he shows his pedals with his set up. He doesnt just stick to the synth, he adds to it.
You dont get that with many keyboard players, and you never see that with Jordans patchwork. Especially since he keeps turning to the iPad which doesnt do it for me personally

[The Walrus]

Jordan has the Continuum. 'nuff said

[shadystraz360]

Jordan has the Continuum. 'nuff said

Well, not really.... a continuum isnt exactly the most “shocking” piece of tech out there....
It was okay when used in the intro to Octavarium but thats really its limit, after that it just became an excuse to slide his fingers up and down a pad rapidly.... doesnt exactly scream “keyboard player” when using it like that... if he used it more melodicly then great, but like i said, i only hear it used properly in Octavarium

[The Walrus]

Jordan has the Continuum. 'nuff said

Well, not really.... a continuum isnt exactly the most “shocking” piece of tech out there....
It was okay when used in the intro to Octavarium but thats really its limit, after that it just became an excuse to slide his fingers up and down a pad rapidly.... doesnt exactly scream “keyboard player” when using it like that... if he used it more melodicly then great, but like i said, i only hear it used properly in Octavarium

I don't understand that argument, respectfully. He's a "synth" player as much as a "keyboardist" (though the terms are pretty interchangeable), so I'm not sure why the Continuum doesn't get the same respect a keyboard does, as it is definitely a synthesizer but with different functionality. But to each their own of course. I love the way it's used in TDEN.

[shadystraz360]

Jordan has the Continuum. 'nuff said

Well, not really.... a continuum isnt exactly the most “shocking” piece of tech out there....
It was okay when used in the intro to Octavarium but thats really its limit, after that it just became an excuse to slide his fingers up and down a pad rapidly.... doesnt exactly scream “keyboard player” when using it like that... if he used it more melodicly then great, but like i said, i only hear it used properly in Octavarium

I don't understand that argument, respectfully. He's a "synth" player as much as a "keyboardist" (though the terms are pretty interchangeable), so I'm not sure why the Continuum doesn't get the same respect a keyboard does, as it is definitely a synthesizer but with different functionality. But to each their own of course. I love the way it's used in TDEN.

Dont get me wrong, it was great as the Octavarium intro, because he was using it in such a way to provide a melodical setting... TDEN was a mistake, Jordan didnt know it was being recorded as he was just going crazy during Mikes recordings, hence why there was no video footage on the studio video....
But the point im making is that the creative difference between the 2 is evident in how Derek doesnt stick with software, but adds extra hardware like pedals to create a unique sound, where as Jordan relies soley on keyboards. And the iPads, to me personally, just deters from being a keyboard player and more like a DJ...
but this is just my opinion on the difference in sounds used and tech. I am a patch designer so i enjoy both aspects, but im always curious to what others think

[PowerSlave]

Something that I always enjoyed about Derek's playing is those dissonant/edgy jazz piano riffs that he would use. The end of the instrumental/lead section in Lines in the Sand, and there's also a little part in ACOS that are perfect examples. They're small parts of the songs, but they always grab my attention.

[shadystraz360]

Something that I always enjoyed about Derek's playing is those dissonant/edgy jazz piano riffs that he would use. The end of the instrumental/lead section in Lines in the Sand, and there's also a little part in ACOS that are perfect examples. They're small parts of the songs, but they always grab my attention.

I supposed the other disadvantage for Jordsn is that he doesnt have full creative control. Where as when i hear Jordans solo albums you hear Jordan being Jordan.... same for Derek. His solo albums allow Derek to be Derek...

But that changes when in a band and since Derek is the main writer for what he is playing he can produce whatever is needed to make the song come alive (pun intended)...
Jordan is kinda restricted in that regard and has less "freedom of expression" as it were....
Makes me wonder what DT would sound like if Jordan could explore more avenues rather than going from Keyboard rigs to iPad rigs. Where as Derek goes from Keyboard rigs to keyboard & Pedalboard rigs....
You can see the 2 musical styles in a completely different light when one is allowed to control the content instead of being told what the content should be....

[The Walrus]

JR isn't told what the content should be. JR is one of DT's primary songwriters. Not sure why it's inherently a disadvantage or bad thing that Jordan doesn't go balls out on DT albums like he does on his solo stuff. His solo stuff is great, imo, but it's really off the walls and goes in a million different directions. DT is prog but they're not completely bizarre off-the-wall circus stuff like a lot of Jordan's solo work is. I like that there are *some* boundaries that Jordan is okay with not crossing in DT.

[erwinrafael]

Something that I always enjoyed about Derek's playing is those dissonant/edgy jazz piano riffs that he would use. The end of the instrumental/lead section in Lines in the Sand, and there's also a little part in ACOS that are perfect examples. They're small parts of the songs, but they always grab my attention.

I supposed the other disadvantage for Jordsn is that he doesnt have full creative control. Where as when i hear Jordans solo albums you hear Jordan being Jordan.... same for Derek. His solo albums allow Derek to be Derek...

But that changes when in a band and since Derek is the main writer for what he is playing he can produce whatever is needed to make the song come alive (pun intended)...
Jordan is kinda restricted in that regard and has less "freedom of expression" as it were....
Makes me wonder what DT would sound like if Jordan could explore more avenues rather than going from Keyboard rigs to iPad rigs. Where as Derek goes from Keyboard rigs to keyboard & Pedalboard rigs....
You can see the 2 musical styles in a completely different light when one is allowed to control the content instead of being told what the content should be....

JR is being told what the content should be in DT? Where the hell is this coming from?

I don't find much variety in DS' playing. I know it's bad when the first thing that came to mind when I heard DS in SoA is that he sounded just like how he did in an album twenty years ago. JR shows more variety in the song BAI than DS did in the whole SoA album.

[Lethean]

I like DS just fine on Falling into Infinity and A Change of Seasons, and enjoy some of what I've heard of his solo material. I think SoA just has bad song writing, and whatever nice playing he or Ron Thal are doing isn't enough to help make up for that.

Jordan to me is just on another level and I think he's an excellent song writer for DT in addition to being a phenomenal player. As far as I'm concerned the band was elevated when he joined (and I love I&W and Awake so I'm not at all saying they were lacking before he joined; I just think he made them even better). Jordan is one of the most creative people I've encountered.

[mikeyd23]

This thread should get renamed - shadystraz360 props up DS and talks down JR. 

[Schurftkut]

besides the leadsound Derek uses, i really enjoy the pianostuff he did with Platypus. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRpu66Ak65Q

[shadystraz360]

Something that I always enjoyed about Derek's playing is those dissonant/edgy jazz piano riffs that he would use. The end of the instrumental/lead section in Lines in the Sand, and there's also a little part in ACOS that are perfect examples. They're small parts of the songs, but they always grab my attention.

I supposed the other disadvantage for Jordsn is that he doesnt have full creative control. Where as when i hear Jordans solo albums you hear Jordan being Jordan.... same for Derek. His solo albums allow Derek to be Derek...

But that changes when in a band and since Derek is the main writer for what he is playing he can produce whatever is needed to make the song come alive (pun intended)...
Jordan is kinda restricted in that regard and has less "freedom of expression" as it were....
Makes me wonder what DT would sound like if Jordan could explore more avenues rather than going from Keyboard rigs to iPad rigs. Where as Derek goes from Keyboard rigs to keyboard & Pedalboard rigs....
You can see the 2 musical styles in a completely different light when one is allowed to control the content instead of being told what the content should be....

JR is being told what the content should be in DT? Where the hell is this coming from?

I don't find much variety in DS' playing. I know it's bad when the first thing that came to mind when I heard DS in SoA is that he sounded just like how he did in an album twenty years ago. JR shows more variety in the song BAI than DS did in the whole SoA album.

What i was getting at was that i have noticed in Jordans playing over the years, it has become more predictable. Because i am a keyboard patch designer so when i hear certain sections played by Jordan, i know what he is gonna do next.... im not saying the guy doesnt have skills or that he isnt any good, im just saying to me it kinda sounds the same. Pianos, bells, xylophones and iPads get kinda boring in the end.. i cant hear one song from Jordan where he doesnt go into the “Piano Ballard Man” justy within different patches.. my opinion isnt that he is bad, just predictable..

[shadystraz360]

I like DS just fine on Falling into Infinity and A Change of Seasons, and enjoy some of what I've heard of his solo material. I think SoA just has bad song writing, and whatever nice playing he or Ron Thal are doing isn't enough to help make up for that.

Jordan to me is just on another level and I think he's an excellent song writer for DT in addition to being a phenomenal player. As far as I'm concerned the band was elevated when he joined (and I love I&W and Awake so I'm not at all saying they were lacking before he joined; I just think he made them even better). Jordan is one of the most creative people I've encountered.

Thats what interests me to, because Jordan isnt the producer for DT, Petrucci is... and Mike & John together were back in the day. But when you hear each album, there is more and more piano... and when Mike left, 95% of DT’s music has Piano... to me that just isnt DT... the contrast between SoA and DT is within whats created through the Synth... because Derek has explored avernues to adapt new styles of sounds. Where as i see Jordan still with 1 keyboard assuming it can do it all. Then the iPad just destroyed it for me... i was impressed at first, but after a while, like his Liquid Lead, Liquid Wah, New Wha Lead etc..... its the same stuff. Where as Derek searches for tone with extended hardware.... i wanna know what Jordan would sound like if he did the same thing, adding to the keyboard instead relying on one piece of gear

[shadystraz360]

This thread should get renamed - shadystraz360 props up DS and talks down JR. 

Im not talking down Jordan at all.... i think Jordan is a wonderful Piano player.... im just curious as to whether other fans listen to the creative differences because as i enjoy both aspects, i find myself leaning towards the hardware side than the software half... i dont expect everyone to agree with me....
But a unique player, whether its guitar, bass, synth, acoustic etc etc etc, people should look tobe unique in their playing...
For example, you can instantly recognise a guitarists tone, Hendrix, Page, Gilmour etc, because that is their signiture sound.
The principle works also for keyboards. Their tone and patchwork is instantly recognised.
I can hear Dereks playing, and without looking at credits, album info or whatever, and know instantly that is Derek because he has that instantly recognisable sound...
To begin with, Jordan had that same feeling to, and i get that from several songs, just not recently... but if someone played some music, i wouldnt know if it was Jordan or not until they tell me or show me the personell listing...
This is just how i feel... its not talking down, im just grabbing thoughts of fans if they have the same ear or not. I didnt think that was a problem since im not actually playing anyone down, just looking at what you guys think

[The Walrus]

WTF... there are lots of things in those posts I don't understand. So Jordan gets derided for having one keyboard, but also gets derided for having a Continuum, iPad, keytar... you claim a musician should look to be unique, and here's Jordan with several of his very own original music apps with really cool sounds, but that's not unique... and apparently only having one keyboard is a bad thing, when most metal keyboardists out there get by with one and only one main keyboard on stage...

This is silly. I personally can listen to Jordan and instantly recognize that it's him playing..

[shadystraz360]

WTF... there are lots of things in those posts I don't understand. So Jordan gets derided for having one keyboard, but also gets derided for having a Continuum, iPad, keytar... you claim a musician should look to be unique, and here's Jordan with several of his very own original music apps with really cool sounds, but that's not unique... and apparently only having one keyboard is a bad thing, when most metal keyboardists out there get by with one and only one main keyboard on stage...

This is silly. I personally can listen to Jordan and instantly recognize that it's him playing..

Its not about getting derived for having one keyboard... im talking about the creative sounds and search for something unique. While the Continuum and iPad may sound great for DT, i have only seen Jordan use the Continuum for one song that involves melodic creativity, and thats the intro to Octavarium. In TDEN he just slides his fingers all over the place. In Rite Of Passage, he again is just sliding fingers on the Bebot app. Then in Enigma Machine, he is just sliding fingers across his Geo Shred app.... there is no melodic usage to me... ok it might sound great but if Derek did the same thing, would he be applauded or criticised for using such tools? Which is why im asking for peoples views on these differences...
But instead of doing this Derek uses external hardware with his pedals and rigs but seems to get criticsm for his method of creativity...
All im asking In this thread is that the creative differences between both parties, although unique, one goes for a Keyboard rig, the other goes for finger sliding software apps.... so for the fans its seems they are more happy for someone to use things like iPads instead of keyboards, and still feel like they are making great music.... my opinion is just slightly different, but as always, i like to see what other fans think, some are in agreement about it, some are not..... its always interesting to hear why

[The Walrus]

Derek would indeed be criticized, because they are, as he says, "cheesy ass gadgets"  maaan 

BTW... Jordan still has a 'keyboard rig'... just because he has an iPad and other instruments on stage doesn't mean he doesn't have a genuine, bonafide, true-blue keyboard rig...

[bill1971]

WTF... there are lots of things in those posts I don't understand. So Jordan gets derided for having one keyboard, but also gets derided for having a Continuum, iPad, keytar... you claim a musician should look to be unique, and here's Jordan with several of his very own original music apps with really cool sounds, but that's not unique... and apparently only having one keyboard is a bad thing, when most metal keyboardists out there get by with one and only one main keyboard on stage...

This is silly. I personally can listen to Jordan and instantly recognize that it's him playing..

Its not about getting derived for having one keyboard... im talking about the creative sounds and search for something unique. While the Continuum and iPad may sound great for DT, i have only seen Jordan use the Continuum for one song that involves melodic creativity, and thats the intro to Octavarium. In TDEN he just slides his fingers all over the place. In Rite Of Passage, he again is just sliding fingers on the Bebot app. Then in Enigma Machine, he is just sliding fingers across his Geo Shred app.... there is no melodic usage to me... ok it might sound great but if Derek did the same thing, would he be applauded or criticised for using such tools? Which is why im asking for peoples views on these differences...
But instead of doing this Derek uses external hardware with his pedals and rigs but seems to get criticsm for his method of creativity...
All im asking In this thread is that the creative differences between both parties, although unique, one goes for a Keyboard rig, the other goes for finger sliding software apps.... so for the fans its seems they are more happy for someone to use things like iPads instead of keyboards, and still feel like they are making great music.... my opinion is just slightly different, but as always, i like to see what other fans think, some are in agreement about it, some are not..... its always interesting to hear why

He would be applauded by fans of his like you and many here maybe me too would criticize him for being hypocritical because he always puts down gadgets.

[bosk1]

I like DS just fine on Falling into Infinity and A Change of Seasons, and enjoy some of what I've heard of his solo material. I think SoA just has bad song writing, and whatever nice playing he or Ron Thal are doing isn't enough to help make up for that.

Interestingly, I feel completely differently than you do.   I really like Derek's playing on SOA, I feel like he was still finding his place in DT on FII and was very hit and miss, and his playing on his solo material bores me to tears.  That said, to me, when Derek is the sole creative force and there are no boundaries, like on his solo material, I feel like that is where he flails around and loses me the most.  But when playing to more of a "complete song," he really shines and finds ways to play to the song and compliment the song in sometimes very cool unexpected ways. 

Jordan, to me, is a more creative and more complete songwriter.  And I don't get the comment about pedals at all.  Jordan has been using a pretty complex pedal rig for a LONG time now.

[Lethean]

I like DS just fine on Falling into Infinity and A Change of Seasons, and enjoy some of what I've heard of his solo material. I think SoA just has bad song writing, and whatever nice playing he or Ron Thal are doing isn't enough to help make up for that.

Jordan to me is just on another level and I think he's an excellent song writer for DT in addition to being a phenomenal player. As far as I'm concerned the band was elevated when he joined (and I love I&W and Awake so I'm not at all saying they were lacking before he joined; I just think he made them even better). Jordan is one of the most creative people I've encountered.

Thats what interests me to, because Jordan isnt the producer for DT, Petrucci is... and Mike & John together were back in the day. But when you hear each album, there is more and more piano... and when Mike left, 95% of DT’s music has Piano... to me that just isnt DT... the contrast between SoA and DT is within whats created through the Synth... because Derek has explored avernues to adapt new styles of sounds. Where as i see Jordan still with 1 keyboard assuming it can do it all. Then the iPad just destroyed it for me... i was impressed at first, but after a while, like his Liquid Lead, Liquid Wah, New Wha Lead etc..... its the same stuff. Where as Derek searches for tone with extended hardware.... i wanna know what Jordan would sound like if he did the same thing, adding to the keyboard instead relying on one piece of gear

I'm not a keyboard player, so to be honest, I doubt I would care if Jordan did rely on one piece of gear. He doesn't, but it doesn't matter to me so much. Jordan has a pretty large variety of sounds on his keyboard alone; add the iPad and continuum and his has more there. It's all interesting and fresh to me.  Also, I love Jordan's piano playing and as far as I'm concerned, the more the merrier.  It doesn't matter to me that JP, not Jordan, is the producer - Jordan is one of the two main songwriters, and I think he brings a *lot* to the table.

[Lethean]

I like DS just fine on Falling into Infinity and A Change of Seasons, and enjoy some of what I've heard of his solo material. I think SoA just has bad song writing, and whatever nice playing he or Ron Thal are doing isn't enough to help make up for that.

Interestingly, I feel completely differently than you do.   I really like Derek's playing on SOA, I feel like he was still finding his place in DT on FII and was very hit and miss, and his playing on his solo material bores me to tears.  That said, to me, when Derek is the sole creative force and there are no boundaries, like on his solo material, I feel like that is where he flails around and loses me the most.  But when playing to more of a "complete song," he really shines and finds ways to play to the song and compliment the song in sometimes very cool unexpected ways. 

I don't have a problem with his playing on SoA. It's the songwriting, which to me is so lacking - he might be playing to the songs, but there just isn't that much there. His solo material - I don't have it all but was a little bored by what I heard last (I don't remember what it was, but it was a while ago).  I thought one of his early solo albums was really cool, and liked what I heard of Planet X too.

Jordan, to me, is a more creative and more complete songwriter.  And I don't get the comment about pedals at all.  Jordan has been using a pretty complex pedal rig for a LONG time now.

Agreed.

[shadystraz360]

But thats what i personally find interesting....
If Derek calls them "cheesy ass gadgets", surely he is entitled to that opinion. Just as Jordan would be entitled to say the same thing if it was the other way around..... that is just an opinion.
But its the usage that gets me....
For example, when Jordan got the Continuum he used it for a very iconic intro. Octavarium.... so you get the sense of its power as a synthetic instrument. But thats all.... hasnt been used since to create iconic intros, just sliding around because he can. The Enemy Within, Jordan uses the iPad to just slide his fingers around quickly.... the idea of it being an instrument is lost because to me, looking at the DT Jordan era and solo stuff, there is only 1 iconic epic intro from Jordan....
But when you look at Dereks patchwork with his rig. You can instantly recognise his style. Lines In The Sand for example, you recognise who it is... God Of The Sun, Coming Home are examples from SoA....

In regards to Solo albums. I have all of both Jordans & Dereks, so no one can say im playing "favouritism".. because as i have said, i enjoy both styles of play. But when it comes to patch writing with tech and gear, Dereks is more recognisable because he uses an iconic patch and style... in my opinion Jordan has only achived that once....
And this is my opinion as a patch designer....

[erwinrafael]

Derek has a recognizable sound because his sound vocabulary barely grew. Listem to his sound in FII+ACOS, then listen so Psychotic Symphony and there's very small growth. 20 years and he still sounded the same!

Meanwhile, compare SFAM, ToT, 8VM. ADTOE, and TA. The variety of sounds over the years is amazing.

And I find it funny that you only find the 8VM intro as iconic among JR's intros. I guess mimicking a full orchestra in the SDOIT Overture does not cut it for you? Maybe that BAI intro is not majestic enough?

[mikeyd23]

Derek has a recognizable sound because his sound vocabulary barely grew. Listem to his sound in FII+ACOS, then listen so Psychotic Symphony and there's very small growth.

BINGO

[The Walrus]

For example, when Jordan got the Continuum he used it for a very iconic intro. Octavarium.... so you get the sense of its power as a synthetic instrument. But thats all.... hasnt been used since to create iconic intros, just sliding around because he can. The Enemy Within, Jordan uses the iPad to just slide his fingers around quickly.... the idea of it being an instrument is lost because to me, looking at the DT Jordan era and solo stuff, there is only 1 iconic epic intro from Jordan....

Earlier in the thread you said it was just the Continuum that hasn't been used for 'iconic intros' now it's the entire Jordan era except Octavarium that he hasn't made an iconic intro? Strongly disagree... what is 'iconic' is debatable but he's had a lot of amazing intros to songs over the nearly 20 years he's been in the band. (also, it's The Enemy Inside, not within )

I dunno, Derek seems to 'slide his fingers around quickly' throughout all of Psychotic Symphony. I don't hear much memorable or iconic there. d:^)

(Iconic is a loaded word, anyway. It's not like it's an easy feat to create something that can be attributed that word, and it's almost impossible to do so if you're actively trying to chase that term.)

[shadystraz360]

For example, when Jordan got the Continuum he used it for a very iconic intro. Octavarium.... so you get the sense of its power as a synthetic instrument. But thats all.... hasnt been used since to create iconic intros, just sliding around because he can. The Enemy Within, Jordan uses the iPad to just slide his fingers around quickly.... the idea of it being an instrument is lost because to me, looking at the DT Jordan era and solo stuff, there is only 1 iconic epic intro from Jordan....

Earlier in the thread you said it was just the Continuum that hasn't been used for 'iconic intros' now it's the entire Jordan era except Octavarium that he hasn't made an iconic intro? Strongly disagree... what is 'iconic' is debatable but he's had a lot of amazing intros to songs over the nearly 20 years he's been in the band. (also, it's The Enemy Inside, not within )

I dunno, Derek seems to 'slide his fingers around quickly' throughout all of Psychotic Symphony. I don't hear much memorable or iconic there. d:^)

(Iconic is a loaded word, anyway. It's not like it's an easy feat to create something that can be attributed that word, and it's almost impossible to do so if you're actively trying to chase that term.)

I didnt say the just the Continuum hasnt been used....
I said as you quoted... When the Continuum came out you can hear it used as an Iconic intro used for the beginning of Octavarium.. but the rest isnt all Jordan... the band brought their parts to write the rest...
SDOIT, This is another example... he is using orchestral sounds to make an intro.. yeah it sounded great and even better on SCORE.... But to me that's the extent of his creative writing.... where as i remember watching a youtube interview with Derek & Mike about SoA writing. Was mentioned that God Of The Sun was written in full by Derek. Mike didnt wanna change it, said to keep it as is.....
I havent heard anything in DT where Jordan walked in with a full piece of music and the band thinks "yh, lets do it"....
This is why im asking about the creative differences between the 2.
I would like to see Jordan write a full DT song. Would be interesting to hear...
And someone mentioned the changes through SFAM onwards....
He is still using the Pig Riff patch.... The Bells & Xylophones patches.. and his Liquid Lead was made up of Brass instruments on Distortion effects within the Kurzwiel....
He has changed maybe 6 different lead patches since then. But like a Guitarist making a style their own, Satriani, Yngwie, Page.... Its a signiture... thats why i find Jordans patches, as amazing as they are, are thinner..
And Dereks is more recognisable because he has that signiture patch.
Which again, as i am a patch designer, i can heat the evolution of the sound....
I think others cannot hear it because they either dont want to, or cant...
But i like reading different opinions.
Keep them coming.... always good to have friendly discussions