Author Topic: Commercial success = More derision. Why?  (Read 4005 times)

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Offline Lethean

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2017, 08:36:27 AM »
I'll agree with you that popular is definitely a stretch. Maybe they're popular in our little underground prog world, but they are a very small band.  However, even though I'm not the one who sent them, I definitely recommend you follow up on that. I absolutely love Riverside.

Offline RoeDent

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2017, 02:16:31 PM »
I don't know if I can think of a band that got very popular and didn't sink in quality.

This view is one of the reasons why I started this thread. Exactly what makes a song that strikes a chord with "the masses", lower in quality artistically? What parameters are we working with here, and are we all working with the same parameters? What is the psychological meaning behind this thinking?

And on the subject of bands sticking with a formula if it's successful for them...who can blame them? Money rules the world, so if they find a way to make lots of it, they're going to go down that way.

Offline ChuckSteak

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2017, 09:04:43 AM »
This view is one of the reasons why I started this thread. Exactly what makes a song that strikes a chord with "the masses", lower in quality artistically? What parameters are we working with here, and are we all working with the same parameters? What is the psychological meaning behind this thinking?

And on the subject of bands sticking with a formula if it's successful for them...who can blame them? Money rules the world, so if they find a way to make lots of it, they're going to go down that way.
I didn't say that a song that is popular is automatically shit just because it is popular. Artists that get more and more popular tend to sink in quality. The parameter? My taste. Musical taste is not a science and it is completely subjective. I don't understand what you mean by asking "what is the psychological meaning behind this thinking?".

If you are making music purely for money, then you are not a musician. "Money rules the world, therefore let's just do whatever makes money and fuck everything." That sounds like a lame excuse that would come from a 12-year-old. This is exact the kind of mentality of a sellout. And that "money rules the world so fuck it" kind of mentality is also very popular and typical of our capitalist, dog-eat-dog kind of society. Well, I wouldn't expect different values from a society that puts money over everything else. I feel sorry for such people. Fortunately, there are people out there who make music for the sake of music or art for the sake of art. Money is secondary and strictly for survival.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2017, 09:08:59 AM »
That might all be true, but I cannot begrudge someone if they decide to use their talent to make more money.  It's obvious that Phil Collins said to himself in the 80s, "I want to make a lot of money," and he did so by writing songs towards that end.  Is that right or wrong?  The answer: neither.

Offline ChuckSteak

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2017, 10:27:01 AM »
That might all be true, but I cannot begrudge someone if they decide to use their talent to make more money.  It's obvious that Phil Collins said to himself in the 80s, "I want to make a lot of money," and he did so by writing songs towards that end.  Is that right or wrong?  The answer: neither.
If you use your talent to make money, the music won't be nearly as good as if you used your talent to make music. I've only heard a couple of Phil Collins' songs from the 80s and I know I don't need to hear any more of his songs. It doesn't arouse my interest in the least.

There isn't right or wrong. The artist can do whatever he wants. But if he decides that money is more important, then the music becomes of secondary importance. Then originality and creativity get thrown out of the window and you become poppier to appeal to the taste of the masses, creating a product strictly to sell. That's what most artists do, unfortunately. And all for the sake of money. It is not right nor wrong, it is up to the artist.

Offline Architeuthis

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2017, 10:55:18 AM »
There's a few more mainstream bands that have a huge following and still rock. Journey has a good formula that appeals to the average listener and musicians alike. Other bands that didn't sacrifice music but managed to tap into best of both worlds (pun intended)  are Van Halen, Rush, Boston, Styx, The Who, etc.
But I guess one could argue that those bands came out when good music was appreciated more and established a good fan base.
I believe Dream Theater could write a brilliant album that could appeal to a larger audience without sacrificing their integrity to good music..
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Offline Lethean

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2017, 11:12:16 AM »
I believe Dream Theater could write a brilliant album that could appeal to a larger audience without sacrificing their integrity to good music..
Maybe they could, but I hope they don't try. There are a number of their songs that you'd think could appeal to that larger audience, and I like those songs, but it hasn't happened. I don't want them to actively try, because then I think they'd lose something. If it happens by accident, that's different.

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2017, 11:17:23 AM »
You guys are delusional to think that Dream Theater can go mainstream. That'll never happen. Progressive rock even if it's simplified does not have mass appeal.
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2017, 11:40:11 AM »
Yeah, I don't think DT will ever get mainstream appeal. They're just a bit nuts with the meter changes and technical showmanship. Not like Rush. You need a strong and simple beat that you can dance to... :)
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Offline Architeuthis

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2017, 11:51:55 AM »
Watch her every move, Superconductor..  :metal
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Offline FreezingPoint

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #45 on: December 09, 2017, 01:39:12 PM »
That might all be true, but I cannot begrudge someone if they decide to use their talent to make more money.  It's obvious that Phil Collins said to himself in the 80s, "I want to make a lot of money," and he did so by writing songs towards that end.  Is that right or wrong?  The answer: neither.
If you use your talent to make money, the music won't be nearly as good as if you used your talent to make music. I've only heard a couple of Phil Collins' songs from the 80s and I know I don't need to hear any more of his songs. It doesn't arouse my interest in the least.

There isn't right or wrong. The artist can do whatever he wants. But if he decides that money is more important, then the music becomes of secondary importance. Then originality and creativity get thrown out of the window and you become poppier to appeal to the taste of the masses, creating a product strictly to sell. That's what most artists do, unfortunately. And all for the sake of money. It is not right nor wrong, it is up to the artist.

In some cases it is about money, but that isn't what it is necessarily about.

For some reason, we think, "Sure, an artists simplifies his music, sells out, puts out crappy pop music and makes a lot of money." What's not understood, is that simply putting out pop-sounding music is no guarantee of popularity and a lot of money. Actually putting out material that captures a large audience is an achievement, and something that not a lot of people can say that they did. Think about artists that tried to get more poppy and capture that audience and fell flat. I'm willing to bet that the failures are more common than the successes. 

Second of all, artists like to set challenges for themselves and push their limits for the most part.

Since we have been talking about Phil, think about his career and what he did. Was a part of a huge and legendary progressive rock band that was very successful (even before the 80s hits of Genesis), was a part of Brand X and that scene, and put out some interesting music in his first two solo albums. Sure, there was some pop influence in those solo albums, but it didn't dominate the way No Jacket did. So where does he go from there? Rehash what he has done in his career? Duke pt. 2? Instead he goes for something different, and something difficult. Think about it, a drummer and singer from a progressive rock giant puts out a huge pop album and becomes a cultural figure of the decade. It's a lot easier to say than it sounds. Imagine if for Petrucci's next solo album, he decided to go full-on pop, the album blew up, and suddenly you were hearing his songs everywhere, non-stop. Bizarre!

And we have to face it, becoming popular is a goal of a lot of bands out there. If it were really all about the creation of music and nothing else, everyone would just spend time in the studio writing and doing nothing else. People release music for other people to listen to it. How many bands say, "We want to become the biggest band in the world?" How many bands say, "We'd really like to play clubs of 100 people for the next 30 years?"
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Offline MirrorMask

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #46 on: December 09, 2017, 01:53:28 PM »
I believe Dream Theater could write a brilliant album that could appeal to a larger audience without sacrificing their integrity to good music..
Maybe they could, but I hope they don't try. There are a number of their songs that you'd think could appeal to that larger audience, and I like those songs, but it hasn't happened. I don't want them to actively try, because then I think they'd lose something. If it happens by accident, that's different.

Well, I guess you can pull a "greatest hits" or, better, "greatest chances at crossover audiences" out of all their albums. Here and there you can find a song or two per album that could appeal to people outside DT's usual fanbase.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #47 on: December 09, 2017, 03:57:23 PM »
Great post, FreezingPoint. :tup :tup

Like you said, writing a hit is not easy; it is hard work. If if were easy, a lot more musicians would do it.

Offline Architeuthis

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #48 on: December 09, 2017, 06:27:11 PM »
It also depends on exposure, certain record companies have contracts with radio stations that get bands a lot of airplay. 
 If a song like Chosen, or Our New World got the proper airplay, I have no doubt in my mind that they would be hits. The Root of All Evil would be a good hard rock candidate.. DT has a lot of songs that could be potential radio hits which could send them into arena status here in the U.S. 
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Offline Ninjabait

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #49 on: December 09, 2017, 08:08:06 PM »
Let's not forget Rock Band/Guitar Hero. I basically got my brother (who's music tastes lean heavily towards pop punk and 80s classic rock) to like On the Backs of Angels, Roundabout, Blood and Thunder, and Symphony X's Nevermore by playing them on Rock Band when I was at his house. The Astonishing also went over pretty well when I played it in the background while we were gaming once. The "Trustful boy / Unaware who's watching / Open the door / I am right behind you" part of A Tempting Offer got an...interesting reaction :lol

You guys are delusional to think that Dream Theater can go mainstream. That'll never happen. Progressive rock even if it's simplified does not have mass appeal.

I don't think this is true at all. There's a lot of albums and bands that are clearly or borderline prog that have sold or charted EXTREMELY well. Dark Side of the Moon, The Wall, and Breakfast in America have all sold over 20 million copies. Fragile, Close to the Edge, and Tales from Topographic Oceans have all gone platinum in multiple countries and hit the top 10 in the UK Albums Chart (TfTO even hit the US Billboard Hot 200). Rush is probably the biggest "cult" band in history. From what I've gathered from talking to people who grew up in the 70s and 80s, the classic 70s prog bands are basically household names. Heck, even modern prog or prog-leaning stuff like Tool, Muse, Mastodon, Dream Theater, Animals as Leaders, and Radiohead are borderline household names. When they passed away, Chris Squire and Keith Emerson both ended up trending on Twitter and facebook. Sure, you're probably not going to hear On the Backs of Angels or The Enemy Inside on the Top 40 anytime soon (for a variety of reasons, not just popularity), but I'd say there's a much bigger (and sometimes largely untapped) market for prog than we often think.

A bit more anecdotal, but I've turned some hardcore pop fans (on a British pop forum nonetheless) into Diablo Swing Orchestra fans of all things (Ne freaking Obliviscaris also got some good reactions recently)! And if DSO can catch on with pop fans, the sky's the limit!

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #50 on: December 09, 2017, 09:49:51 PM »
Different era.  That was when rock that was expanding and was in the popular lexicon.  Now that will never happen.  Nothing wrong with that.  Plus, albums sales means nothing anymore.  Touring is how bands make money.

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Offline npiazza91

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #51 on: December 09, 2017, 10:10:55 PM »
Is it psychological? Is it an inherent tribalism in humans, the idea that this is MINE, and no one else's, to the point where anything that attracts the band to the wider population is met with scorn from these types?

Yes. This is essentially the reason. Especially in an already niche and secluded genre like metal and rock.
This may be true for some people, but it's not true for me.  Songs become hits because they're easy to digest and they're "catchy" (most of the time).  For me, a song has to do a lot more than that to be among my favorites.  You have to remember that the average listener of music doesn't have "developed ears" for music, and the types of songs that instantly hook people are the ones that are going to reach the largest amount of people in the quickest way.  That's really all it is.  Pull Me Under is the biggest DT song because #1 it came out at a time when the band was at their most popular and #2 it was the most instantly catchy song by the band at the time.  Then you also have to factor in money as well.  Soetmes artists put more money into advertising one song over another and they intentionally promote that one song...so that one song that gets the most exposure becomes the most popular by default.  I mean nobody can really tell you what makes a popular song better than a band's other songs in most cases other than "it's the most popular" which isn't really a reason.

But yeah it's a combination of all these things.  I would never dislike an artist's popular song specifically because it's popular, but 9 times out of 10, the popular song isn't even close to what the band has to offer.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #52 on: December 10, 2017, 09:25:38 AM »
  Pull Me Under is the biggest DT song because #1 it came out at a time when the band was at their most popular and #2 it was the most instantly catchy song by the band at the time. 

I think that is backwards.  They were at their most popular at the time because of Pull Me Under.  And let's face it, had Pull Me Under been released a few years later, it likely doesn't make a dent, but in late 1992, Headbanger's Ball was still a thing on MTV, which was a major reason it got massive airplay on MTV, and the sound and big hair some of them had at the time kind of gave it that tinge of hair metal (which still had a huge following despite the media later trying to rewrite history to make it looked like Nirvana had crushed hair metal). Pull Me Under was basically the right song at just the right time.

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #53 on: December 10, 2017, 09:45:04 AM »
The band was no where near their height of their popularity when I&W came out.
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Offline soupytwist

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #54 on: December 11, 2017, 03:30:04 AM »
Could it be as simple as success, fame and money makes people lazy in regards to their craft?  Enjoying the lifestyle that those things bring may mean their art could suffer, which may result is a feeling of 'going though the motions' after a successful breakthough.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #55 on: December 12, 2017, 12:08:39 PM »
This view is one of the reasons why I started this thread. Exactly what makes a song that strikes a chord with "the masses", lower in quality artistically? What parameters are we working with here, and are we all working with the same parameters? What is the psychological meaning behind this thinking?

And on the subject of bands sticking with a formula if it's successful for them...who can blame them? Money rules the world, so if they find a way to make lots of it, they're going to go down that way.
I didn't say that a song that is popular is automatically shit just because it is popular. Artists that get more and more popular tend to sink in quality. The parameter? My taste. Musical taste is not a science and it is completely subjective. I don't understand what you mean by asking "what is the psychological meaning behind this thinking?".

If you are making music purely for money, then you are not a musician. "Money rules the world, therefore let's just do whatever makes money and fuck everything." That sounds like a lame excuse that would come from a 12-year-old. This is exact the kind of mentality of a sellout. And that "money rules the world so fuck it" kind of mentality is also very popular and typical of our capitalist, dog-eat-dog kind of society. Well, I wouldn't expect different values from a society that puts money over everything else. I feel sorry for such people. Fortunately, there are people out there who make music for the sake of music or art for the sake of art. Money is secondary and strictly for survival.

I could not possibly disagree with that more.   Maybe if you're hinging it all on "purely", and so there is NO input from other motivations, but life isn't that easy, and if you're an artist that has a message that you want others to hear, why is it a crime to put that message in a package that appeals to a large group of people?    There's nothing inherently purer in Yoko Ono's caterwauling than there is in, say, a unifying message like in U2's "One".   

Who are you to tell anyone else what they should value, and by how much?   

Then there's also the "making of the music" and the "packaging and selling of the music".    Is Queen any less virtuous because they wrote "We Will Rock You/We Are The Champions" ideally for the fans, but have marketed the SHIT out of those songs in the years since? 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #56 on: December 12, 2017, 12:10:51 PM »
You guys are delusional to think that Dream Theater can go mainstream. That'll never happen. Progressive rock even if it's simplified does not have mass appeal.


I'll go one better; if it was that easy, they would have done it already.   They flirted with that on FII; if that had sold 3 million copies, you would have QUITE the different discography after that point.   That's well documented, including in "Lifting Shadows". 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #57 on: December 12, 2017, 12:13:31 PM »
I don't think this is true at all. There's a lot of albums and bands that are clearly or borderline prog that have sold or charted EXTREMELY well. Dark Side of the Moon, The Wall, and Breakfast in America have all sold over 20 million copies. Fragile, Close to the Edge, and Tales from Topographic Oceans have all gone platinum in multiple countries and hit the top 10 in the UK Albums Chart (TfTO even hit the US Billboard Hot 200). Rush is probably the biggest "cult" band in history. From what I've gathered from talking to people who grew up in the 70s and 80s, the classic 70s prog bands are basically household names. Heck, even modern prog or prog-leaning stuff like Tool, Muse, Mastodon, Dream Theater, Animals as Leaders, and Radiohead are borderline household names. When they passed away, Chris Squire and Keith Emerson both ended up trending on Twitter and facebook. Sure, you're probably not going to hear On the Backs of Angels or The Enemy Inside on the Top 40 anytime soon (for a variety of reasons, not just popularity), but I'd say there's a much bigger (and sometimes largely untapped) market for prog than we often think.


As an aside, I'm not sure it's helpful to compare catalogue albums with "hit" albums.   "Hysteria" and "Dark Side..." are not the same phenomena at all. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #58 on: December 12, 2017, 12:16:20 PM »
Is it psychological? Is it an inherent tribalism in humans, the idea that this is MINE, and no one else's, to the point where anything that attracts the band to the wider population is met with scorn from these types?

Yes. This is essentially the reason. Especially in an already niche and secluded genre like metal and rock.
This may be true for some people, but it's not true for me.  Songs become hits because they're easy to digest and they're "catchy" (most of the time).  For me, a song has to do a lot more than that to be among my favorites.  You have to remember that the average listener of music doesn't have "developed ears" for music, and the types of songs that instantly hook people are the ones that are going to reach the largest amount of people in the quickest way.  That's really all it is.  Pull Me Under is the biggest DT song because #1 it came out at a time when the band was at their most popular and #2 it was the most instantly catchy song by the band at the time.  Then you also have to factor in money as well.  Soetmes artists put more money into advertising one song over another and they intentionally promote that one song...so that one song that gets the most exposure becomes the most popular by default.  I mean nobody can really tell you what makes a popular song better than a band's other songs in most cases other than "it's the most popular" which isn't really a reason.

But yeah it's a combination of all these things.  I would never dislike an artist's popular song specifically because it's popular, but 9 times out of 10, the popular song isn't even close to what the band has to offer.

And I suppose we here all have "developed ears"?  That's the very premise of deriding commercial music, and I don't think I agree with that.   I know a fair amount about music theory, I've played in bands, etc. etc., and I wouldn't at all say I have "developed ears".    I like what I like.  It's visceral.  There's no "development". 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #59 on: December 12, 2017, 12:18:19 PM »
That might all be true, but I cannot begrudge someone if they decide to use their talent to make more money.  It's obvious that Phil Collins said to himself in the 80s, "I want to make a lot of money," and he did so by writing songs towards that end.  Is that right or wrong?  The answer: neither.

I don't think that's necessarily a fair assessment of Phil; his first solo album was never intended to be released, and was a set of demos for consideration by Genesis.   The second, more of the same.   I suppose you can argue that there's no way he makes "No Jacket Required" without an eye to the charts, but some of his later stuff isn't really "pandering" to money as much as it is pandering to "hipness" (all that "social awareness" crap that even I find unbearably cheesy).