Author Topic: Commercial success = More derision. Why?  (Read 4007 times)

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Offline RoeDent

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Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« on: December 07, 2017, 07:38:33 AM »
What is it about anything that achieves commercial success that attracts such negativity from many people? It's very very often the case that someone's least favourite songs by a band are the "hits", or that successful bands attract far more vocal derision, dismissal and downright hatred. I mean, look at Genesis and Phil Collins. It's clear that plenty of people love their music, as one of the best-selling rock bands of all time, and yet there is a sector of the music-listening population that spits all-out vitriol against the band. Is it psychological? Is it an inherent tribalism in humans, the idea that this is MINE, and no one else's, to the point where anything that attracts the band to the wider population is met with scorn from these types?

And there are many other bands this applies to. I just chose Genesis as an example of a band that's sold immensely well, but that also has a very vocal band of detractors.

Online MirrorMask

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2017, 07:44:54 AM »
Is it psychological? Is it an inherent tribalism in humans, the idea that this is MINE, and no one else's, to the point where anything that attracts the band to the wider population is met with scorn from these types?

Yes. This is essentially the reason. Especially in an already niche and secluded genre like metal and rock.
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Offline Lethean

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2017, 08:02:49 AM »
I think that part of it is if a band changes to get that success. For example, if On The Backs of Angels had won that Grammy and suddenly became a hit, I think it would be fine because it still Dream Theater. That song is very much part of who they are. However, if they wrote an album full of the material that they themselves have always criticized, and gained a lot of commercial success, that would really turn people off.

Maybe Genesis fans just missed what made the band great to them and then found the newer material being so successful to be like salt in the wounds.

Offline The Walrus

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2017, 08:07:17 AM »
There haven't been many bands I listen to who have struck big mainstream success after I've found them, but there is one: Dragonforce. And your line about something being 'mine' is spot on. Now, say what you want about their music, but they're one of my all-time favorite bands, they played a massive part in me picking up an instrument and studying music. For years, living in the rural USA, they were 'my thing.' Nobody else knew about them. And then one day, Through the Fire and Flames appeared on Guitar Hero. About a year after I had been listening to that album almost every day, multiple times. Then they went through the roof.

And then I heard that damn song on every single interview, every single promotional video, I heard it nonstop as my friends demanded I play it on expert on Guitar Hero, all my friends only talking about that one song. And even though DF was/is a punchline for lots of metalheads, that wasn't what bothered me. What bothered me was the crowd that the fame attracted. "Emo/scene kids", the Hot Topic crowd, playing at Vans music festivals and Ozzfest, being associated with that line of metal. And I became bitter for a very long time about it, because this thing that was 'mine' for so long had now become this mainstream thing, almost a fad, and lots of people only knew them because of a video game and that one particular song. And that one song was all people knew, and they would mock and deride the band for it. In the back of my mind I'm thinking of two dozen other potential songs to show them, I'm thinking of thoughts as long as this post :) and trying to bite my tongue.

The funny thing is, when that song came out, I was certain it was the greatest song they had ever written. These days, it is probably my least favorite on that whole album. And I can't even tell if it's because the sheen wore off, so to speak, or because I let the bitterness eat away at me until I actively disliked it. I've long since learned to get over it and not let that stuff bother me - partially because Dragonforce has kind of waned in popularity in recent years but is still very popular, but because more than anything else, it's petty. They got fame, they deserved it, and who am I to act so selfish and bitter about people not having the same knowledge and passion as me, or that these people don't come from the same musical background as me? I ran into a guy at a DF show a few years ago who liked bands like Asking Alexandria and all those screamo type bands. Once upon a time that would've irked me. But it didn't, and I had a blast at the show with him, and we simply enjoyed the music together.
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Offline AngelBack

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2017, 08:12:36 AM »
But I think some bands do change after commercial success.  Bands like Journey and REO were never as good to me after they scored those mega money makers.  It seems they tapped into a formula and just kept going to that well.
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Offline Ninjabait

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2017, 08:38:48 AM »
There's a concept in psychology called "Dunbar's Number" (which is often called the "Monkeysphere"), which basically states that there is a cognitive limit to how many personal relationships that we can sustain (which is usually around the 150-200 range). Everyone outside of that becomes a person-shaped "other". Which is, incidentally, how people can be totally racist and yet have black friends. So while they think every other black person is a looting welfare queen who's going to rob, rape, and kill them, they think their black friend (let's call him "Bill Misth") is an exception to the rule. "Bill's not like them though, he's a good guy."

So, how does this apply to band fanbases? Well, think of it this way: In a smaller group, it's easier to "personify" the other members of that group. That's not a faceless person, that's Bill Misth. As the group starts to get bigger, it becomes more difficult to "personify" all the members of that group. It's also more difficult for other people to personify you.  If you're in a chat room with 8,000 people, what chance is there of anything you say actually being heard? You're just another blip in an endless stream of noise. So, the band's new found popularity actually becomes a threat to that sense of community and to that person's role as an individual in the community. As the fandom gets bigger, everything you and Bill Misth say loses importance, and eventually becomes just another piece of noise. Now, obviously, that's frustrating. So, in your frustration, you try to find a source for the loss of community, and voila! It's the band's new popular song and the new fans who aren't really trve fans!

As for hating on artists like Taylor Swift or Skrillex, the hate typically stems from one of two things: that "Monkeysphere" effect I mentioned earlier or "overexposure". Hating things that are typically super popular makes the fanbase of the smaller group feel more "special" and more like individuals. The fans of that popular thing are just a faceless, stupid mob who only like that music because everyone else likes it. They don't appreciate trve art like [insert niche band here]. Going against the grain helps them and their community fell more "special" and more "their own". Here's a really good article about how this happens and how it breeds radicalism. As for overexposure, if you're forced to listen to the same song over and over again on the radio or at the supermarket, eventually you'll come to resent it. It's like how friends can get along really well and be super close normally, but they end up just bickering with each other when you move in together and have to be around each other constantly. Phil Collins/Genesis is a bit of both, the earlier fans felt their special community degrading with the huge influx of new members, and they were so present on the radio that eventually people eventually just got annoyed.

Also, it goes without saying that this doesn't really reflect on the quality of the music itself. Just because something's popular doesn't mean it's bad, and just because something's niche doesn't mean it's good.

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2017, 08:48:32 AM »
I think that part of it is if a band changes to get that success. For example, if On The Backs of Angels had won that Grammy and suddenly became a hit, I think it would be fine because it still Dream Theater. That song is very much part of who they are. However, if they wrote an album full of the material that they themselves have always criticized, and gained a lot of commercial success, that would really turn people off.

Maybe Genesis fans just missed what made the band great to them and then found the newer material being so successful to be like salt in the wounds.

I think this is quite close. When a band becomes commercially successful without changing the essence of their sound, I don't think it really receives much derision. Think of Rush with Moving Pictures. Or Yes with Fragile. Or even a niche band like Savatage with Edge of Thorns.

Online Stadler

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2017, 08:57:37 AM »
Also, it goes without saying that this doesn't really reflect on the quality of the music itself. Just because something's popular doesn't mean it's bad, and just because something's niche doesn't mean it's good.

But it's PERCEIVED that way.   Go ask a bunch of Prog-heads to list their favorite Genesis albums, and you'd be hard pressed to find one after 1980 on the list.    It'll start with either The Lamb or Selling..., the other one will be second, then Foxtrot and either Trick... Or Wind... and maybe a Nursery Cryme in there somewhere.  Yes, same thing. 

I know from my experience, my good buddy in high school was an REM fan, got to see them at a small club on the Murmur and Reckoning tours (and incidentially, hated Iron Maiden... until Peter Buck wore a Maiden shirt on stage during one of the gigs, and the next day, my bud came to me and said "think you can throw some songs onto a tape for me?").   When they started to blow up - Lifes Rich Pageant - he started in on the "well, they were better, but they're still good" and then ditched them altogether when Out of Time came out.  "SELLOUTS!" he said.   U2 the same way.   Even I'm guilty of it (I saw U2 on the first leg of the Joshua Tree tour, before the album exploded, and they were still in smaller arenas).  On a smaller scale, Marillion.   It's a way for some to show their musical bona fides.   Me, I don't really care; I love Night Ranger, make no bones about it, and would put Invisible Touch on my top 5 Genesis list in a heartbeat.   I think Taylor Swift is going to be the Michael Jackson of this current generation.   

Offline ProfessorPeart

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2017, 09:54:00 AM »
But I think some bands do change after commercial success.  Bands like Journey and REO were never as good to me after they scored those mega money makers.  It seems they tapped into a formula and just kept going to that well.

If I remember correctly from the Behind The Music, Journey was forced to change by management in order to achieve commercial success. That same show introduced me to the pre-Steve Perry era that I never knew about. I have never been much of a fan of the band. I immediately went out and picked up the first 2 records with Gregg on vocals and I love them. That first record is just excellent.

So for me and with this example, commercial success was a bad thing. I would have much rather heard the original band continue on in the vein of the first 2 records.
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Offline AngelBack

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2017, 10:01:17 AM »
But I think some bands do change after commercial success.  Bands like Journey and REO were never as good to me after they scored those mega money makers.  It seems they tapped into a formula and just kept going to that well.

If I remember correctly from the Behind The Music, Journey was forced to change by management in order to achieve commercial success. That same show introduced me to the pre-Steve Perry era that I never knew about. I have never been much of a fan of the band. I immediately went out and picked up the first 2 records with Gregg on vocals and I love them. That first record is just excellent.

So for me and with this example, commercial success was a bad thing. I would have much rather heard the original band continue on in the vein of the first 2 records.

Totally agree, the Gregg Rolie era was, to me, far superior.
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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2017, 10:27:07 AM »
But I think some bands do change after commercial success.  Bands like Journey and REO were never as good to me after they scored those mega money makers.  It seems they tapped into a formula and just kept going to that well.

AngelBack, how old are you?
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Online Podaar

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2017, 10:35:18 AM »
Uh oh, fogey alert.
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Offline AngelBack

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2017, 10:40:19 AM »
But I think some bands do change after commercial success.  Bands like Journey and REO were never as good to me after they scored those mega money makers.  It seems they tapped into a formula and just kept going to that well.

AngelBack, how old are you?

LOL, guilty of the fogey thing.  I'm a little older than you but I had an older brother who was always sharing his music with me and letting me tag along to concerts.  I was getting into music by 10 years old or so. 
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Offline TAC

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2017, 10:41:35 AM »
Older than Kingshmegland??
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline AngelBack

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2017, 10:43:19 AM »
Older than Kingshmegland??

Well... I'm guessing he is mid (to late) 40's.  But that liver.....
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Online Podaar

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2017, 10:51:22 AM »
 :lol
"Owners of dogs will have noticed that, if you provide them with food and water and shelter and affection, they will think you are God. Whereas owners of cats are compelled to realize that, if you provide them with food and water and affection, they draw the conclusion that they are God.” — Christopher Hitchens

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2017, 10:53:44 AM »
 :lol :lol :lol

I was guessing you were around me.  I found out the 1st three Journey albums after getting into journey as a 10 year old (The Perry era, 1978)  My cousin who's a year older got me into them.
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Offline AngelBack

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2017, 10:57:04 AM »
:lol :lol :lol

I was guessing you were around me.  I found out the 1st three Journey albums after getting into journey as a 10 year old (The Perry era, 1978)  My cousin who's a year older got me into them.

Yeah my brother was cool to let the annoying little guy hang with him.  Then when I turned 13 he gave me a baggy with some green stuff in it.  He was WAY cool at that point.
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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2017, 11:21:35 AM »
But I think some bands do change after commercial success.  Bands like Journey and REO were never as good to me after they scored those mega money makers.  It seems they tapped into a formula and just kept going to that well.

If I remember correctly from the Behind The Music, Journey was forced to change by management in order to achieve commercial success. That same show introduced me to the pre-Steve Perry era that I never knew about. I have never been much of a fan of the band. I immediately went out and picked up the first 2 records with Gregg on vocals and I love them. That first record is just excellent.

So for me and with this example, commercial success was a bad thing. I would have much rather heard the original band continue on in the vein of the first 2 records.

Totally agree, the Gregg Rolie era was, to me, far superior.

I SO disagree with that.   There is nothing in the Journey catalogue that can touch Escape.  That is one of the best records by any band ever.    Perfect mix of melody, chops, emotion, technique...    they were leading to that with everything that came before, and were chasing that with everything that came after.

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2017, 11:22:40 AM »
Is anyone going to mention "Metallica" in this conversation?  If not, I will.   :)

Offline The Walrus

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2017, 11:25:12 AM »
I found Journey's Escape at the same time I found Asia's Alpha and I gotta say that was one of the greatest 1-2 punch combos I've ever heard in my life. Escape is so much better than anything else in their catalogue imo. It is on a whole other level of greatness from start to finish.
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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2017, 12:07:09 PM »
Look To The Future is the only Journey album I can listen to and thoroughly enjoy. The closing three songs are the best thing Neal Schon has every recorded, IMHO.
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Offline Ninjabait

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2017, 01:00:02 PM »
But it's PERCEIVED that way.   Go ask a bunch of Prog-heads to list their favorite Genesis albums, and you'd be hard pressed to find one after 1980 on the list.    It'll start with either The Lamb or Selling..., the other one will be second, then Foxtrot and either Trick... Or Wind... and maybe a Nursery Cryme in there somewhere.  Yes, same thing.

Yup, that was exactly my point. The music is different, sure and might not stylistically appeal to some Proggers, but a lot of people still enjoy and derive meaning from the Collins-era Genesis so I wouldn't label it as "bad" per se. I know my personal favorite Genesis album is Selling England by the Pound, but I actually still like a lot of the Collins-era Genesis stuff (Jesus He Knows Me is actually my favorite Genesis song). Same with Yes and 90125/Big Generator. That is some kickbutt classic rock, but it gets straddled with the expectation of the Yes/Genesis "brand" and gets evaluated a little unfairly imo. And a super modern example is the last three Dream Theater albums (especially The Astonishing). I wonder sometimes how well they would have been received if a band that wasn't Dream Theater released them, without all the baggage of the big Mike Portnoy debate and the expectations of a certain sound.

I know from my experience, my good buddy in high school was an REM fan, got to see them at a small club on the Murmur and Reckoning tours (and incidentially, hated Iron Maiden... until Peter Buck wore a Maiden shirt on stage during one of the gigs, and the next day, my bud came to me and said "think you can throw some songs onto a tape for me?").   When they started to blow up - Lifes Rich Pageant - he started in on the "well, they were better, but they're still good" and then ditched them altogether when Out of Time came out.  "SELLOUTS!" he said.   U2 the same way.   Even I'm guilty of it (I saw U2 on the first leg of the Joshua Tree tour, before the album exploded, and they were still in smaller arenas).  On a smaller scale, Marillion.   It's a way for some to show their musical bona fides.   Me, I don't really care; I love Night Ranger, make no bones about it, and would put Invisible Touch on my top 5 Genesis list in a heartbeat.

Yes, absolutely! It goes back to what I said before about the "community" of the fanbase. The second article I linked to goes into this in more detail, but groups tend to become more "radicalized" over time. Essentially, they keep raising the bar for what counts as being a "true member" of the group to make themselves feel superior. It's why there are so many people who are totally pretentious about their interests, saying stuff like:

"Oh you like folk music? What's your favorite band? Simon & Garfunkle? Pshaw, you're not a real folk fan. REAL folk fans listen to Kiss the Anus of a Black Cat, not those posers."

I think Taylor Swift is going to be the Michael Jackson of this current generation.

No doubt. If I had to pick anyone to represent the "face" of 2010s Pop music, I would pick either her, the Beebs, or Adele.

Also, side note, but I keep thinking your avatar is Godzilla. I know it's not, but I can't help thinking that.

Offline AngelBack

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2017, 01:07:24 PM »
Now that you mention it, has anyone ever seen Gene Simmons and Godzilla in the same room?  Hmmm....
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Offline Ninjabait

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2017, 01:12:18 PM »
To be fair, I don't think you'd be able to fit both Godzilla and Gene Simmons' ego on the same continent, let alone in one room.

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2017, 01:29:48 PM »
Now that you mention it, has anyone ever seen Gene Simmons and pickpocketer in the same room?  Hmmm....


FTFY
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Offline AngelBack

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2017, 01:32:54 PM »
Now that you mention it, has anyone ever seen Gene Simmons and pickpocketer in the same room?  Hmmm....


FTFY

 :lol
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Offline lordxizor

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2017, 02:30:42 PM »
I just like to see the bands I love in tiny venues. I hate arena shows and even dislike medium sized theaters. So I get mad when they catch on too much and I have to pay $50 to be in a larger venue instead of $20 in a small club.

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2017, 02:43:17 PM »
Now that you mention it, has anyone ever seen Gene Simmons and pickpocketer in the same room?  Hmmm....


FTFY

 :lol

2 grand for a box set.  NO U GENE! :lol
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Offline ChuckSteak

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2017, 05:56:42 PM »
I don't know if I can think of a band that got very popular and didn't sink in quality. It is not that every good band has to be little known or underground, but somehow the more popular a band gets, the worse.

Maybe Riverside is an exception. But then, they aren't sooooo popular outside of prog. I guess there are many bands like this.

Offline lordxizor

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2017, 07:15:59 PM »
Maybe Riverside is an exception. But then, they aren't sooooo popular outside of prog. I guess there are many bands like this.
There's definitely a difference between being popular within a band's genre and gaining mainstream commercial success outside of it.

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2017, 06:57:15 AM »
I don't know if I can think of a band that got very popular and didn't sink in quality. It is not that every good band has to be little known or underground, but somehow the more popular a band gets, the worse.

Maybe Riverside is an exception. But then, they aren't sooooo popular outside of prog. I guess there are many bands like this.

"Popular" is a stretch; I'm not a music noob, and for the record, I've never heard even one Riverside song.   

But AC/DC, Van Halen, Aerosmith, Led Zeppelin, U2, Marillion, Queen, Genesis, Rush, Springsteen... all put out excellent albums after hitting it "big".   

Offline AngelBack

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2017, 07:28:13 AM »
I don't know if I can think of a band that got very popular and didn't sink in quality. It is not that every good band has to be little known or underground, but somehow the more popular a band gets, the worse.

Maybe Riverside is an exception. But then, they aren't sooooo popular outside of prog. I guess there are many bands like this.

"Popular" is a stretch; I'm not a music noob, and for the record, I've never heard even one Riverside song.   

But AC/DC, Van Halen, Aerosmith, Led Zeppelin, U2, Marillion, Queen, Genesis, Rush, Springsteen... all put out excellent albums after hitting it "big".

Agreed, wish I could put Kansas on that list....
But the arc of your life will still be profound

Offline Lethean

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2017, 08:19:56 AM »
I don't know if I can think of a band that got very popular and didn't sink in quality. It is not that every good band has to be little known or underground, but somehow the more popular a band gets, the worse.

Maybe Riverside is an exception. But then, they aren't sooooo popular outside of prog. I guess there are many bands like this.

"Popular" is a stretch; I'm not a music noob, and for the record, I've never heard even one Riverside song.   

But AC/DC, Van Halen, Aerosmith, Led Zeppelin, U2, Marillion, Queen, Genesis, Rush, Springsteen... all put out excellent albums after hitting it "big".

Um, Stadler... aren't you maybe forgetting something? Or did you *say* you took the time to listen to everything but in reality, a reality dream perhaps, you just picked all your scores out of a hat?

Online Stadler

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Re: Commercial success = More derision. Why?
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2017, 08:28:39 AM »
I don't know if I can think of a band that got very popular and didn't sink in quality. It is not that every good band has to be little known or underground, but somehow the more popular a band gets, the worse.

Maybe Riverside is an exception. But then, they aren't sooooo popular outside of prog. I guess there are many bands like this.

"Popular" is a stretch; I'm not a music noob, and for the record, I've never heard even one Riverside song.   

But AC/DC, Van Halen, Aerosmith, Led Zeppelin, U2, Marillion, Queen, Genesis, Rush, Springsteen... all put out excellent albums after hitting it "big".

Um, Stadler... aren't you maybe forgetting something? Or did you *say* you took the time to listen to everything but in reality, a reality dream perhaps, you just picked all your scores out of a hat?

Was there a Riverside song in my roulette?  Hang on... dammit... there was, and I gave it an 8 too.  I should've listened to it first, huh?

Kidding; I listened to everything.   I did use a Dungeon's and Dragon's 10 sided die, though.  :)

I should have said:  '"Popular" is a stretch; I'm not a music noob, and for the record, I've heard exactly one Riverside song.'