Author Topic: Guns are Icky  (Read 970 times)

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Offline Stadler

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2017, 01:54:50 PM »
Having lived in Israel for several years, at no point did I feel unsafe.


Though I knew when to avoid certain places because of increased violence, and I wasn't allowed to go to The West Bank or any other occupied territories besides Jerusalem.

Why weren't you "allowed"?  Passport?  Nationality?  Prudence on the part of whoever brought you there?

Israel doesn't allow citizens into those areas unless they're settlements. I refuse to go to settlements on moral grounds.

Assuming I had the will and no moral compunction (which I'm not saying I do or don't) would I, as an American citizen, be allowed?

Offline Stadler

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2017, 01:55:59 PM »
Ah yes, Cote de Pablo. The most Israeli person ever.

It passed muster with me, but then again, I have low standards.

I mean, it'd be like saying inspector Clouseau did a good enough American impression.

I can't defend my position and not turn myself into a hypocrite in the other threads here.  :)

Offline Adami

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2017, 01:57:16 PM »
Having lived in Israel for several years, at no point did I feel unsafe.


Though I knew when to avoid certain places because of increased violence, and I wasn't allowed to go to The West Bank or any other occupied territories besides Jerusalem.

Why weren't you "allowed"?  Passport?  Nationality?  Prudence on the part of whoever brought you there?

Israel doesn't allow citizens into those areas unless they're settlements. I refuse to go to settlements on moral grounds.

Assuming I had the will and no moral compunction (which I'm not saying I do or don't) would I, as an American citizen, be allowed?

Yup! Americans are allowed anywhere but Gaza. Just Israelis aren't.
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Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2017, 02:32:54 PM »
My own West Bank story, which I've told already at MP's place but I'll tell it briefly here.

In the summer of 2013 I fulfilled an ambition and went to Jerusalem. One day I decided to take the bus to Bethlehem, which - being an utter dunce about this whole region and its politics and history - I didn't realise was in the Palestinian Territories. When we got to the border there was a big red sign warning Israeli citizens to turn back now because it was dangerous for their lives to proceed. The bus stopped and gun toting police got on to check our passports (making sure we weren't Israelis). I'm used to frightening situations because I was going to east Ukraine almost every month during the height of the war, but I wasn't prepared for that. It's a different kind of threat and danger, one I'm not familiar with. It was very scary, and also very depressing.

The church itself (the Church of the Nativity, said to be where Jesus was born) was of course fascinating once you're inside (on the way to it there's a Kentucky Fried Chicken outlet which rather disturbs the ambience). But it was one of the least 'spiritual' experiences of my life. Everywhere is suspicion and nervousness and tension and a pervading sense of close danger.

By contrast, the single most 'spiritual' experience of my life was the following evening, when I took a short walk out into the fringe of the desert behind the Mount of Olives (my hotel was on top of the Mount of Olives, a stone's throw from the Garden of Gethsamane; in fact my window looked onto the spot where Christ's Passion and arrest is said to have taken place). A very eerie experience, especially when you look back and see the city in the darkness. You're in near total silence and you see this benighted city with all its bloody and unhappy history. It's easy to understand why the desert gave birth to the religions, it takes you very close to your own 'soul' and makes you afraid and small to the point of almost nothing.

Sorry to hijack your thread a bit Barto, just wanted to share that story.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 04:28:58 PM by Dave_Manchester »

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2017, 08:18:41 AM »
I find most gun discussions nowadays pretty frustrating.

I take the middle of the road approach that there should absolutely be stronger restrictions on who should be able to legally purchase a firearm, but I don't yell and scream about guns 3 minutes every time there are mass killings done with guns.

The people on one side dig their heels in about how no one should be able to take their guns away and get all defiant when anyone suggest putting any restrictions on their ability to buy more guns, and the people on the other side kick and scream about guns being the cause of all the suffering in the world when some nutjob kills 33 people with one. 

It's maddening.

Offline sylvan

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2017, 10:50:35 AM »
My friend's dad just died, and he had 14 guns. Now my buddy is dealing with them because he's the only one with gun experience (former Army). But he recently got rid of his gun, and doesn't want more, so he has to go through the process of selling them off. Well, his uncle said he wanted the scoped hunting rifle. My buddy is gonna have to ask around with other family members to see if the guy can be "trusted", and even then he thinks he might just not go down that road anyways. I'm glad he's trying to do the responsible thing.

I had another friend years ago sell his pistol to a neighbor kid, who was arrested within the week for armed robbery...

Offline Stadler

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #41 on: December 11, 2017, 08:34:20 AM »
My friend's dad just died, and he had 14 guns. Now my buddy is dealing with them because he's the only one with gun experience (former Army). But he recently got rid of his gun, and doesn't want more, so he has to go through the process of selling them off. Well, his uncle said he wanted the scoped hunting rifle. My buddy is gonna have to ask around with other family members to see if the guy can be "trusted", and even then he thinks he might just not go down that road anyways. I'm glad he's trying to do the responsible thing.

I had another friend years ago sell his pistol to a neighbor kid, who was arrested within the week for armed robbery...

I guess I would ask why that's "unusual".  Wouldn't you do that with anything that has the potential to be misused?  A car, for example?  I'd like to think I would.

Offline sylvan

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #42 on: December 11, 2017, 10:01:32 AM »
My friend's dad just died, and he had 14 guns. Now my buddy is dealing with them because he's the only one with gun experience (former Army). But he recently got rid of his gun, and doesn't want more, so he has to go through the process of selling them off. Well, his uncle said he wanted the scoped hunting rifle. My buddy is gonna have to ask around with other family members to see if the guy can be "trusted", and even then he thinks he might just not go down that road anyways. I'm glad he's trying to do the responsible thing.

I had another friend years ago sell his pistol to a neighbor kid, who was arrested within the week for armed robbery...

I guess I would ask why that's "unusual".  Wouldn't you do that with anything that has the potential to be misused?  A car, for example?  I'd like to think I would.

I wasn't really implying it was unusual, although the second example might not be unusual either. More so, some people are actually interested in "the greater good" if you will.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2017, 10:43:44 AM »
My friend's dad just died, and he had 14 guns. Now my buddy is dealing with them because he's the only one with gun experience (former Army). But he recently got rid of his gun, and doesn't want more, so he has to go through the process of selling them off. Well, his uncle said he wanted the scoped hunting rifle. My buddy is gonna have to ask around with other family members to see if the guy can be "trusted", and even then he thinks he might just not go down that road anyways. I'm glad he's trying to do the responsible thing.

I had another friend years ago sell his pistol to a neighbor kid, who was arrested within the week for armed robbery...

I guess I would ask why that's "unusual".  Wouldn't you do that with anything that has the potential to be misused?  A car, for example?  I'd like to think I would.

I wasn't really implying it was unusual, although the second example might not be unusual either. More so, some people are actually interested in "the greater good" if you will.

No, I'm less coming back at you, than I am pointing out to others that this should be the norm. 

Offline portnoy311

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2018, 10:09:14 PM »
My friend's dad just died, and he had 14 guns. Now my buddy is dealing with them because he's the only one with gun experience (former Army). But he recently got rid of his gun, and doesn't want more, so he has to go through the process of selling them off. Well, his uncle said he wanted the scoped hunting rifle. My buddy is gonna have to ask around with other family members to see if the guy can be "trusted", and even then he thinks he might just not go down that road anyways. I'm glad he's trying to do the responsible thing.

I had another friend years ago sell his pistol to a neighbor kid, who was arrested within the week for armed robbery...

I guess I would ask why that's "unusual".  Wouldn't you do that with anything that has the potential to be misused?  A car, for example?  I'd like to think I would.

A valid Driver's License shows that your state has run a background check on you, knows your entire driving history as well as pertinent medicals (you're not blind, or at risk for various health events while driving), and is a clear 'go ahead.' That does not exist for private gun ownership. I would say it is a very different scenario.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #45 on: January 10, 2018, 10:41:40 AM »
My friend's dad just died, and he had 14 guns. Now my buddy is dealing with them because he's the only one with gun experience (former Army). But he recently got rid of his gun, and doesn't want more, so he has to go through the process of selling them off. Well, his uncle said he wanted the scoped hunting rifle. My buddy is gonna have to ask around with other family members to see if the guy can be "trusted", and even then he thinks he might just not go down that road anyways. I'm glad he's trying to do the responsible thing.

I had another friend years ago sell his pistol to a neighbor kid, who was arrested within the week for armed robbery...

I guess I would ask why that's "unusual".  Wouldn't you do that with anything that has the potential to be misused?  A car, for example?  I'd like to think I would.

A valid Driver's License shows that your state has run a background check on you, knows your entire driving history as well as pertinent medicals (you're not blind, or at risk for various health events while driving), and is a clear 'go ahead.' That does not exist for private gun ownership. I would say it is a very different scenario.

Unfortunately, you can't compare "gun ownership" with "driving license" as much as we want to.  If you want to compare the license given for an abortion, or the license granted entitling you to speak freely, then we're on to something.   

Offline El Barto

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2018, 11:59:04 AM »
My friend's dad just died, and he had 14 guns. Now my buddy is dealing with them because he's the only one with gun experience (former Army). But he recently got rid of his gun, and doesn't want more, so he has to go through the process of selling them off. Well, his uncle said he wanted the scoped hunting rifle. My buddy is gonna have to ask around with other family members to see if the guy can be "trusted", and even then he thinks he might just not go down that road anyways. I'm glad he's trying to do the responsible thing.

I had another friend years ago sell his pistol to a neighbor kid, who was arrested within the week for armed robbery...

I guess I would ask why that's "unusual".  Wouldn't you do that with anything that has the potential to be misused?  A car, for example?  I'd like to think I would.

A valid Driver's License shows that your state has run a background check on you, knows your entire driving history as well as pertinent medicals (you're not blind, or at risk for various health events while driving), and is a clear 'go ahead.' That does not exist for private gun ownership. I would say it is a very different scenario.

Unfortunately, you can't compare "gun ownership" with "driving license" as much as we want to.  If you want to compare the license given for an abortion, or the license granted entitling you to speak freely, then we're on to something.
Which if you think about it is fairly insane.

I get your point, one is a constitutional right and the other is not a right and is regulated by the states. In practice they're about the same, though. You have the right to speak, get an abortion, or own a gun. You do not get to make threatening remarks, abort a foetus afflicted with a condition that republicans like, or own a gun if you're a convicted felon, just like you can't hold a license after a DUI conviction. As far as I know the only prohibition on driving that isn't behavioral is poor eyesight. Laughingly, I doubt that's a prohibition to gun ownership anywhere. Different in theory. The same in practice.

And the solution to P311's problem, or any other conscientious gun owner's, is to tell the uncle to go get a CCL before he can buy the gun. When The Man certifies that you're competent to own a firearm you can buy mine.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #47 on: January 11, 2018, 08:59:15 AM »
Well, you're right, and I'm not arguing the practicalities as much as I'm highlighting that the procedure is different.  You can most assuredly put a limitation - reasonable, least restrictive, and with a compelling interest of the state - on a right, but the process is different (and should be).   I think what I'm asking for is some caution.  We're on a gun kick now, so it seems so "common sense" (you know how much I hate that phrase) to put all these restrictions in, but when and if that same restriction is put on abortion, a whole sector of our society goes bat shit crazy like you're trying to sterilize half the population.   I'm all for thoughtful consideration on all these points, but it's not an unreasonable request to ask for some continuity and consistency, and some acknowledgement that even if you (not you personally, but collectively) don't like that it is a "right", you recognize that it is, and deal with it accordingly.

As much as I rail against the idiocy* of gun control, I have no issue with clear, concise, and reasonable controls over the ownership (including purchase and sale) of firearms.  I will lay claim, though, unpopular as they may be, to having similar thoughts about things like abortion and speech. 

*Idiocy = shorthand for lack of analytical reasoning, and in direct defiance of the statistics that we now know show that many of the proposed "solutions" actually make the situation on the ground worse, while serving as a panacea and a "feel-good" to those who feel they have to "do something!". 

Offline El Barto

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #48 on: January 11, 2018, 09:26:53 AM »
They've been putting ridiculous restrictions on abortion for years now. Targeted restrictions that serve no purpose other than to close down clinics. Yet if we try to institute a system where gun buyers have to submit to a background check people lose their fucking minds. Has there been any significant gun regulation in the last 10 years? Kansas will set a minimum number of mourners for the legally mandated funeral of some indistinguishable clump of tissue, but suggest that maybe we should make sure you're not meshuga before you buy a mini-14 and it's utter fascism.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #49 on: January 11, 2018, 09:30:29 AM »
We've had such onerous restrictions in California for so long that I forget and am shocked when reminded that many states do NOT have background checks.  I really don't know what there is to lose one's mind about over a background check. 
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #50 on: January 11, 2018, 09:35:10 AM »
We've had such onerous restrictions in California for so long that I forget and am shocked when reminded that many states do NOT have background checks.  I really don't know what there is to lose one's mind about over a background check.
If you sell one of your guns on Craigslist would you have to require a background check? I don't think people object to the check itself, other than the nutjobs who view any restriction at all as a trampling of their rights, but the extent to which they're required.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #51 on: January 11, 2018, 09:38:40 AM »
We've had such onerous restrictions in California for so long that I forget and am shocked when reminded that many states do NOT have background checks.  I really don't know what there is to lose one's mind about over a background check.
If you sell one of your guns on Craigslist would you have to require a background check? I don't think people object to the check itself, other than the nutjobs who view any restriction at all as a trampling of their rights, but the extent to which they're required.
As a practical matter, you CAN'T sell a gun on Craigslist here.  You can only sell or gift a firearm in California through a registered, authorized dealer.  So, for example, if you wanted to sell Herr Sig to me, you would have to contact the local gun shop and conduct the transaction through them.  They would conduct the requisite background checks and make sure all the other steps are followed. 
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #52 on: January 11, 2018, 09:47:54 AM »
We've had such onerous restrictions in California for so long that I forget and am shocked when reminded that many states do NOT have background checks.  I really don't know what there is to lose one's mind about over a background check.
If you sell one of your guns on Craigslist would you have to require a background check? I don't think people object to the check itself, other than the nutjobs who view any restriction at all as a trampling of their rights, but the extent to which they're required.
As a practical matter, you CAN'T sell a gun on Craigslist here.  You can only sell or gift a firearm in California through a registered, authorized dealer.  So, for example, if you wanted to sell Herr Sig to me, you would have to contact the local gun shop and conduct the transaction through them.  They would conduct the requisite background checks and make sure all the other steps are followed.
I'll be damned. I believe that down here FFLs are only required for new gun purchases. Used gun purchases or sales from non-retail shops are mono-a-mono. The seller's only obligation is to make sure the person is in-state.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #53 on: January 11, 2018, 10:40:13 AM »
They've been putting ridiculous restrictions on abortion for years now. Targeted restrictions that serve no purpose other than to close down clinics. Yet if we try to institute a system where gun buyers have to submit to a background check people lose their fucking minds. Has there been any significant gun regulation in the last 10 years? Kansas will set a minimum number of mourners for the legally mandated funeral of some indistinguishable clump of tissue, but suggest that maybe we should make sure you're not meshuga before you buy a mini-14 and it's utter fascism.

HAHA, that's a good one.   Seriously.

We may be talking geography here, though; remember, I live in Connecticut, home state to the anti-gun crusader and professional crier, Chris Murphy.   It's really the opposite here. 

Look, I understand your point, and maybe the debate isn't between you and me, as much as it is with the anti-abortionist and the gun-nuts.   Whether we do across the nation or not, I think philosophically (if not practically) we SHOULD be handling abortion and guns the same, because the underlying premise for them is the same.   If we just allow a woman to walk in and abort, no names, no restrictions, that GENERAL premise ought to be extended to guns, and we shouldn't be asking for a finger and a sperm sample to buy a gun.  If you're advocating for - as you said - a minimum number of mourners, and for abortion to only be available between 12:00 noon and 2:00 pm on the 32nd of each month, then you ought not to have too much discontent with a stricter gun ownership policy. 

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #54 on: January 11, 2018, 11:07:22 AM »
we SHOULD be handling abortion and guns the same, because the underlying premise for them is the same.

What??
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Offline Adami

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #55 on: January 11, 2018, 11:08:24 AM »
we SHOULD be handling abortion and guns the same, because the underlying premise for them is the same.

What??


Yea. Why?
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #56 on: January 11, 2018, 11:41:59 AM »
Both are constitutionally protected rights, and while restrictions are permissible they're required to meet specific criteria. I don't think he was equating the two, but suggesting that they should both be afforded the same status when imposing new restrictions.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #57 on: January 11, 2018, 12:22:24 PM »
Both are constitutionally protected rights, and while restrictions are permissible they're required to meet specific criteria. I don't think he was equating the two, but suggesting that they should both be afforded the same status when imposing new restrictions.

Exactly.   The fact remains that LEGALLY we can't just "license" whatever we want when we want, and how we want.    ANY restrictions to a constitutional right fall under a separate scheme for evaluation, called the "rational basis test".   Then there are a select number of rights called "fundamental rights" which are held to a higher evaluation standard, called the "strict scrutiny" test.  Under this test, there must be a compelling state interest (real, not imagined, and vital, not "preferred"), the law must be narrowly tailored to further that specific state interest, and it has to be the least restrictive means of accomplishing the goal (close to, but not the same thing as, narrowly tailored). 

Right to a grand jury trial is part of the Constitution; it is not, however,  fundamental right, and would be evaluated under the rational basis test.   The right to free speech is a fundamental right, and would be evaluated under the strict scrutiny test.   The right to bear arms is considered a fundamental right (the Supreme Court said so, I believe in 2010), so any restrictions on that right would be evaluated under the strict scrutiny test. The right to an abortion is generally considered to be a fundamental right (though not as crystal clear as some would like following a case called Planned Parenthood v Casey, which muddied the waters somewhat), so any restrictions on that right would also be evaluated under the strict scrutiny test.