Author Topic: The Chicken or The Egg ?  (Read 2670 times)

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Offline Architeuthis

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The Chicken or The Egg ?
« on: December 06, 2017, 01:29:58 AM »
What came first?  Ok, I could never understand why this is even an issue. It seems common sense plays a easy role in solving this old question/riddle.
 It had to be the chicken. No egg can be laid without a chicken to lay it, and no egg can hatch without a mother hen to keep it warm, and any egg with a hatchling inside needed the rooster to fertilize it before hand.  Once an egg is hatched, the baby chicken can't raise and take care of itself..
 So is it reasonable to agree with the Genesis account where it says the animal species were all created "according to their kind" male and female?  It makes sense to me..  :justjen
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Offline MrBoom_shack-a-lack

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2017, 01:38:00 AM »

 ;)
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Online Chino

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2017, 04:33:45 AM »
The egg predates the chicken by hundreds of millions of years. You don't even need to go back that far. The chicken's evolutionary ancestor laid the chicken's egg.



You can find the DNA of a T-Rex hidden in a chicken's genome.


What would the answer be if you asked the following questions;

1) Which came first, the Geospiza Magnirostris or the egg?
2) Which came first, the Geospiza Fortis or the egg?
3) Which came first, the Geospiza Parvula or the egg?
4) Which came first, the Certhidea Olivasea or the egg?



All are a type of finch that evolved from a different, yet similar bird. All are unique, like the different chickens we have today, but easily genetically traceable through nature's family tree. The egg came first, not those particular species of finch.


There is literally nothing to debate on this topic.

« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 06:58:56 AM by Chino »

Offline Architeuthis

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2017, 07:47:13 AM »
I have a hard time believing that birds came from dinosaurs.  All species of animals reproduce, and their offspring remain the same species. There are many variations within species which was pointed out up above in the charts with the chickens, but they are all still chickens.
 There are many different breeds of cows, but they are still cows. Same with horses, so many varieties but they have always been horses. The list goes on and on. 
 Look at species of fish. In the natural world, salmon have always remained salmon, cichlids have always remained cichlids, piranha have always been piranhas, clown fish have always been clownfish, just ask Nemo, he has no enemies, just anemones..
 Bald Eagles have always been bald eagles. If they did somehow crossbreed with a golden eagle, the offspring would still be an eagle of some sort, hopefully not a Philadelphia Eagle..  :biggrin:
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 07:52:40 AM by Architeuthis »
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Online Chino

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2017, 07:53:25 AM »
I have a hard time believing

Then I don't know what to tell you. Decades of genetic research and laboratory testing says everything you just stated is completely false.


Online Kattelox

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2017, 07:54:36 AM »
I have a hard time believing that birds came from dinosaurs.  All species of animals reproduce, and their offspring remain the same species. There are many variations within species which was pointed out up above in the charts with the chickens, but they are all still chickens.
 There many different breads of cows, but they are still cows. Same with horses, so many varieties but they have always been horses. The list goes on and on. 
 Look at species of fish. In the natural world, salmon have always remained salmon, cichlids have always remained cichlids, piranha have always been piranhas, clown fish have always been clownfish, just ask Nemo, he has no enemies, just anemones..
 Bald Eagles have always been bald eagles. If they did somehow crossbreed with a golden eagle, the offspring would still be an eagle of some sort, hopefully not a Philadelphia Eagle..  :biggrin:

Research evolution. Birds are descendants of a subset of dinosaur, over millions and millions of years. This is widely accepted scientific knowledge these days. Unless you're a Young Earther or something...
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Online Chino

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2017, 07:57:26 AM »
This is a wild ox.


Are you telling me all oxen have always remained oxen?

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2017, 07:57:36 AM »
HAHAHA, it kills me (in terms of making me laugh) that some animal somewhere sat on an egg for months, and at the end was like "What the FUCK is this??" and then asked their partner what's doing?  "Did you sleep with that feathered hussy in the other tree?  You piece of shit!"

Online Chino

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2017, 08:01:38 AM »
HAHAHA, it kills me (in terms of making me laugh) that some animal somewhere sat on an egg for months, and at the end was like "What the FUCK is this??" and then asked their partner what's doing?  "Did you sleep with that feathered hussy in the other tree?  You piece of shit!"

I don't think you think this, but it doesn't happen rapidly like that. We're talking almost indiscernible change from generation to generation. Such small changes that each generation to the next can't even notice the difference. Look at the shape of the human skull over time based on our diet. A baby wasn't just randomly born one day with a skull that was smooth on top. The smoothness was bread about over hundreds of generations as the need for powerful jaw muscles were no longer required. The same goes for any change you can find across any species.

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2017, 08:06:54 AM »
HAHAHA, it kills me (in terms of making me laugh) that some animal somewhere sat on an egg for months, and at the end was like "What the FUCK is this??" and then asked their partner what's doing?  "Did you sleep with that feathered hussy in the other tree?  You piece of shit!"

I don't think you think this, but it doesn't happen rapidly like that. We're talking almost indiscernible change from generation to generation. Such small changes that each generation to the next can't even notice the difference. Look at the shape of the human skull over time based on our diet. A baby wasn't just randomly born one day with a skull that was smooth on top. The smoothness was bread about over hundreds of generations as the need for powerful jaw muscles were no longer required. The same goes for any change you can find across any species.

No, no, I get that.  I was just going for the cheap joke.  And just to be clear, while I'm not the hugest fan of NDT, I do believe in the idea of evolution, even if we do have some gaps to fill in our knowledge.

Online Chino

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2017, 08:08:21 AM »
HAHAHA, it kills me (in terms of making me laugh) that some animal somewhere sat on an egg for months, and at the end was like "What the FUCK is this??" and then asked their partner what's doing?  "Did you sleep with that feathered hussy in the other tree?  You piece of shit!"

I don't think you think this, but it doesn't happen rapidly like that. We're talking almost indiscernible change from generation to generation. Such small changes that each generation to the next can't even notice the difference. Look at the shape of the human skull over time based on our diet. A baby wasn't just randomly born one day with a skull that was smooth on top. The smoothness was bread about over hundreds of generations as the need for powerful jaw muscles were no longer required. The same goes for any change you can find across any species.

No, no, I get that.  I was just going for the cheap joke.  And just to be clear, while I'm not the hugest fan of NDT, I do believe in the idea of evolution, even if we do have some gaps to fill in our knowledge.

What kind of gaps are you looking to fill?

I'm not looking to put you down or "getcha". I'm having a crazy slow day at work and I like talking about evolution.

Offline portnoy311

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2017, 08:10:22 AM »
This is a topic I feel strongly about. Looks like Chino's got it completely covered.

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2017, 08:13:43 AM »
Yeah, any gaps that may exist can only be said to be the fossil record. Still, the fact that there are gaps in the fossil record, only reinforces evolution. Given what it takes to create a fossil, it is perfectly natural that there would be long of years where animals weren't being buried in volcanic ash or mud or sand.

Offline AngelBack

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2017, 08:17:26 AM »
Arch, I'm not sure if you are taking the position of a traditional creationist but I would say the intelligent design theory might satisfy your questions.  A "creator" that chose to use evolution as a means bring things about.  It works for me.
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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2017, 08:18:18 AM »
Oh jeez.  I'm an economics kind of guy, not evolution, so I'm out of my depth here, but as I understand it, there are some holes between the single cell, basic life forms and the more complex life forms we've come to know (and BE!).  I think there are similar gaps between smaller marine invertebrates and the vertebrates that, in theory, made the transition from marine life to land life. 

I'm aware enough to know these are "creationist" talking points, and I'm not coming at it from that perspective; I'm coming at it from the perspective that the more complete our knowledge is, the less that "competing theories" are necessary.  I believe in the fossil record.   I accept the theory of evolution (even if I also believe that the entire kit and caboodle was started by a God).   But I'm also a completest.  :)

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2017, 08:34:29 AM »
The discovery of Tiktaalik went a long way toward filling that gap you mention Stads. What was most fascinating, to me, about the discovery is that the team went looking in the exact layer of rock that would be necessary (geologically speaking) to house such a transitional creature. So several areas of science informed the previous knowledge. That's pretty compelling.

Also, you're not the only one who is a completionist. The scientists who've discovered thousands of unique dinosaur fossils in the Kaparowits Plateau are working with the same idea. It's a disgrace that our President unprotected 900,000 acres just this past Monday of that area so that coal mining can strip that same land of the existing fossil record.

Online Chino

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2017, 08:45:43 AM »
Oh jeez.  I'm an economics kind of guy, not evolution, so I'm out of my depth here, but as I understand it, there are some holes between the single cell, basic life forms and the more complex life forms we've come to know (and BE!).  I think there are similar gaps between smaller marine invertebrates and the vertebrates that, in theory, made the transition from marine life to land life. 

Those are tough ones to crack simply for the fact that they were so delicate, preservation of their existence was extremely difficult. Also, their size makes them very hard to find. However, we have some cool stuff alive today that we can look at for inspiration.

There's a species of algae known as Gonium Pectorale. It's a simple, multi celled organism and belongs to a group of algae known as Volvocine. While multicellular, it only contains 16 cells in total. This gives us a really good sample to study because what we have to observe is so limited (one of the few times a small sample size is good in science), as opposed to say something like a human that contains 37 trillion cells (give or take). There are varying degrees of complexity among the types of volvoline algae. Some are unicellular, some are colonial, and some are multicellular. Studying the differences between the colonial and multicellular species is where the answer you need will come from. What was the trigger that determined if single cells would just clump together to form a larger body (colonial) or a cell would divide on it's own to create a larger body (multicellular)? We're beginning to figure this out. By being able to study the colonial and multicellular versions of similar algae, scientists are now able to identify the differences in their genetic code that regulate cell division and grouping, as well as what determines the method of cellular grouping. We're getting close and I bet you get the answer in your lifetime.

The transition from marine life to land life is one of the easier ones and also explains the vertebrae. For one, we have species of fish today that are still figuring out ways to get around on land despite their ancestors figuring it out millions of years ago.

It'd make sense that fish that evolved a way to navigate the bottoms of a river or sea bed could use those same limbs to navigate land once out of the water.


Or the goby fish that can climb the walls behind a waterfall


All fish still have a central nerve running from their brain to their tail, so the blueprints for building stuff there was already in place. We see vertebrae-like structures in creatures such as sharks, but that's made of cartilage not bone, and we believe that those evolved to support the weight of powerful jaws and their muscle systems (remember, earlier fish just had a hole in the front of their face and no jaw/mouth). When fish made their way to land, and were now subject to gravity, they needed a way to protect that central nerve, support that jaw, and not crush their organs. The need for that lead to the spine and the rib cage.

So nature on at least two occasions came up with some type of spine. This is known as convergence in the evolutionary world. Two species arriving a similar design because it's what's best given the variables of nature, despite being different species. Look at dolphins vs sharks. Sharks have been in the water their entire existence, and dolphins evolved from a four legged land creature. Both ended up arrive at very similar designs despite evolving completely independent of one another. It's speculated that because of this, if we were to find an alien planet with advanced sea life, and assuming they rely on speed to not die/reproduce, it's very likely they'd look similar to Earth's fish.

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2017, 08:58:11 AM »
The only thing that I would add to Chino's excellent post above is that it is also important to remember that Evolutionary theory postulates that small changes (mutations) allowed these creatures to survive better in their existing or changing environments (or perhaps even more importantly to outperform sexually/reproduction). The mutations were passed on to offspring and generations later another mutation added to the previous. Etc.

So in Chino's example, it's not that the fish with spinal cartilage developed harder cartilage in order to go farther up river, it's actually that a mutation of harder cartilage allowed the fish outperform his kin by going farther up river.

Offline bosk1

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2017, 09:05:57 AM »
I get why someone would think as you do, Chino.  If you are coming at the evidence accepting a certain framework that the evidence seems to support, it all does seem to fit together nicely, and the gaps are easy to explain away and posit into theories that appear to perfectly explain it all.  All I can say is, when I forced myself to dig into and confront the evidence in college and beyond, both in my science classes and in a lot of independent study and research, it all fell apart for me, and I could not justify the gaps and retconning of new discoveries into certain paradigms of thought to reinforce assumptions that weren't really proven to a satisfactory degree.  Some of the creationist theories just had more credibility and integrity, which is why I converted to that line of thinking.  But your mileage may vary.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2017, 09:16:41 AM »
I get why someone would think as you do, Chino.  If you are coming at the evidence accepting a certain framework that the evidence seems to support, it all does seem to fit together nicely, and the gaps are easy to explain away and posit into theories that appear to perfectly explain it all.  All I can say is, when I forced myself to dig into and confront the evidence in college and beyond, both in my science classes and in a lot of independent study and research, it all fell apart for me, and I could not justify the gaps and retconning of new discoveries into certain paradigms of thought to reinforce assumptions that weren't really proven to a satisfactory degree.  Some of the creationist theories just had more credibility and integrity, which is why I converted to that line of thinking.  But your mileage may vary.
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Offline portnoy311

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2017, 09:17:37 AM »
I get why someone would think as you do, Chino.  If you are coming at the evidence accepting a certain framework that the evidence seems to support, it all does seem to fit together nicely, and the gaps are easy to explain away and posit into theories that appear to perfectly explain it all.  All I can say is, when I forced myself to dig into and confront the evidence in college and beyond, both in my science classes and in a lot of independent study and research, it all fell apart for me, and I could not justify the gaps and retconning of new discoveries into certain paradigms of thought to reinforce assumptions that weren't really proven to a satisfactory degree.  Some of the creationist theories just had more credibility and integrity, which is why I converted to that line of thinking.  But your mileage may vary.

I gotta be honest, I don't love how this is worded. Following evidence is how the scientific community has reached a consensus on evolution, not the other way around of approaching evidence "accepting a certain framework." I feel that does a disservice to characterize it as such.

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2017, 09:18:58 AM »
I personally can't wrap my head around creationist theories somehow having more 'credibility' and 'integrity' than true blue scientific research, but hey, to each their own. :) Everybody believes in something...
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Offline bosk1

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2017, 09:19:47 AM »
I get why someone would think as you do, Chino.  If you are coming at the evidence accepting a certain framework that the evidence seems to support, it all does seem to fit together nicely, and the gaps are easy to explain away and posit into theories that appear to perfectly explain it all.  All I can say is, when I forced myself to dig into and confront the evidence in college and beyond, both in my science classes and in a lot of independent study and research, it all fell apart for me, and I could not justify the gaps and retconning of new discoveries into certain paradigms of thought to reinforce assumptions that weren't really proven to a satisfactory degree.  Some of the creationist theories just had more credibility and integrity, which is why I converted to that line of thinking.  But your mileage may vary.

I gotta be honest, I don't love how this is worded. Following evidence is how the scientific community has reached a consensus on evolution, not the other way around of approaching evidence "accepting a certain framework." I feel that does a disservice to characterize it as such.
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Online Chino

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2017, 09:25:43 AM »
I get why someone would think as you do, Chino.  If you are coming at the evidence accepting a certain framework that the evidence seems to support, it all does seem to fit together nicely, and the gaps are easy to explain away and posit into theories that appear to perfectly explain it all.  All I can say is, when I forced myself to dig into and confront the evidence in college and beyond, both in my science classes and in a lot of independent study and research, it all fell apart for me, and I could not justify the gaps and retconning of new discoveries into certain paradigms of thought to reinforce assumptions that weren't really proven to a satisfactory degree.  Some of the creationist theories just had more credibility and integrity, which is why I converted to that line of thinking.  But your mileage may vary.

But that's how science works, regardless of what is you're studying. A researcher might ask a question like "Why do the people of this particular region not suffer from ______ disease?". Is it in their genes or in their environment? They come up with a hypothesis (fill the gap) and start testing. Next thing you know, we find a mixture of a chemical in their main crop combines with an enzyme in a type of honey unique to their culture, and all of a sudden we have a chemical cure for something that an now be synthesized and refined.

The retconning is the beauty of science and the backbone to the all things evolution. When we find evidence of something existing 3B years ago that we previously though existed only 2.5B years ago, that's an amazing discovery. We add it to our libraries and increase the degree of certainty of our research.

In the late 1800s when researchers found the first evidence of human-like skulls we immediately started asking the question what species it belonged to. It was subject to much debate for years. Over time another skull was discovered, again slightly different, and this happened again and again. At one point early on it was predicted, an attempt at filling the human evolutionary gap, that they were the ancestors of modern day man. Now, after 100 years of study, and genetic testing, and fossilized evidence, we have an incredible understanding of where we came from and when. Are there still gaps? Sure. There are millions of years where we don't have a skull sample, but when looking at a timeline of tens/millions millions of years, is that a good enough reason to through the whole theory away?



There's a decent gap between Homo Heidelbergensis and Homo Sapien Neanderthalensis, but does that mean the whole theory of our human ancestry is bunk?


What creationist theories had more credibility and integrity than the fossil record?

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2017, 09:35:56 AM »
Is it just me, or do the people/entities that name these things have to step up their game.   I get it, celebrate past titans in the field, and recognize important milestones in the field, but "Heidelbergensis"?  "Neanderthalensis?"   

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2017, 09:42:17 AM »
Look, not taking sides here, at all, but while I don't think that every new fossil found means we blow up every aspect of the theory, but I think after the first couple of anomalies, we've narrowed the field of possible explanations somewhat arbitrarily.    I don't think that's bias, necessarily, but I do think it is a lack of... will for lack of a better word.    I get it, I'm familiar with the (usually misquoted) Occam's Razor and all that, but the great leaps in human knowledge - like, it must be said, Darwin himself - came from people that looked beyond the lines.   I think when it comes to certain topics - and I believe this is one of them - we need to demand that people look beyond the lines more than we do.

I was neutral/leaning pro NDT for a long time, until he made a comment that "we don't need to study that further" when it came to the existence (or not) of God.   I can't disagree with that more strongly than I do.  Unless and until the answer is affirmatively YES, or affirmatively NO (and not "well, there's really no evidence for it") then we should be encouraging study.   Millions of people died throughout history because our knowledge on microorganisms was lacking, because we didn't have the science and technology to detect those creatures.  Yes, the theory came before the actual discovery, but it's a process, and as we found smaller and smaller items in our world, it allowed scientists to make the leap - outside the lines - that maybe there's something even SMALLER, and maybe IT causes that itch in my groinal regions.   Eureka!   :)

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2017, 09:42:55 AM »
Is it just me, or do the people/entities that name these things have to step up their game.   I get it, celebrate past titans in the field, and recognize important milestones in the field, but "Heidelbergensis"?  "Neanderthalensis?"   

Those are both regions where the fossils were found, near Heidelberg and in the Neanderthal valley. It seems appropriate to me to name them such.

:dunno:

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2017, 09:44:50 AM »
Is it just me, or do the people/entities that name these things have to step up their game.   I get it, celebrate past titans in the field, and recognize important milestones in the field, but "Heidelbergensis"?  "Neanderthalensis?"   

Those are both regions where the fossils were found, near Heidelberg and in the Neanderthal valley. It seems appropriate to me to name them such.

:dunno:

I was being a little facetious.  Sorry. 

Online Chino

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2017, 09:46:42 AM »
Disregard

Offline Architeuthis

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2017, 10:44:47 AM »
Arch, I'm not sure if you are taking the position of a traditional creationist but I would say the intelligent design theory might satisfy your questions.  A "creator" that chose to use evolution as a means bring things about.  It works for me.
I don't agree with what a lot of creationists believe. For instance, creationists believe that the earth and all life on it was created in six literal days. I don't believe that at all, the Genesis account doesn't mean six literal days. Each "day" of creation mentioned in Genesis refers to a long time period, perhaps thousands or millions of years.  The bible does say that a thousand years to us is but a day to God, so God's time table is different from ours and much bigger.
 If God did create the earth and all the landscapes, insects, plant and tree life, fish, and animals & humans,, he obviously put a lot of thought into it and it took much longer than 6 literal days..
I agree with the Genesis account that everything was created according to its kind. I respect the scientific community and all the research, to me it just re-enforces the existence of a creator. Many credible scientists agree with that the more in depth research they do on a molecular level. Evolution is only a theory yet it is widely accepted as fact and taught as fact..  While there are forms of evolution, such as certain species of birds growing longer beaks to adapt to their environment, they haven't changed from one species to another.
 As far as mutations, there has been experiments with fruit flies. They took mutated fruit flies only and isolated them, when they bred,  their offspring came out normal.. I found that fascinating.
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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2017, 10:52:28 AM »
Well, yeah, a monkey is not going to change into an elephant even over millions of years. But I would do some reading on speciation (look up allopatric and sympatric speciation). It's fascinating stuff, it's what you're hinting at with your bird-beak example, and I guarantee there is a LOT of interesting stuff to learn about. Check it out sometime. :)
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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2017, 10:59:55 AM »
As far as mutations, there has been experiments with fruit flies. They took mutated fruit flies only and isolated them, when they bred,  their offspring came out normal.. I found that fascinating.

Most mutations are recessive.  Breeding flies with the same mutation does not guarantee that the recessives will line up and propagate the mutation.  That's part of the built-in self-correcting system.

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2017, 11:04:01 AM »
Well, yeah, a monkey is not going to change into an elephant even over millions of years. But I would do some reading on speciation (look up allopatric and sympatric speciation). It's fascinating stuff, it's what you're hinting at with your bird-beak example, and I guarantee there is a LOT of interesting stuff to learn about. Check it out sometime. :)

Perhaps, but they share a common ancestor 105 million years ago.  :)

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2017, 11:06:40 AM »
Arch, I'm not sure if you are taking the position of a traditional creationist but I would say the intelligent design theory might satisfy your questions.  A "creator" that chose to use evolution as a means bring things about.  It works for me.

 If God did create the earth and all the landscapes, insects, plant and tree life, fish, and animals & humans,, he obviously put a lot of thought into it

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2017, 11:15:05 AM »
Arch, I'm not sure if you are taking the position of a traditional creationist but I would say the intelligent design theory might satisfy your questions.  A "creator" that chose to use evolution as a means bring things about.  It works for me.
Evolution is only a theory yet it is widely accepted as fact and taught as fact.. 

Ever hear of the theory of gravity? How about the theory of relativity? Germ theory?