Author Topic: Top 5 2017 Albums  (Read 3508 times)

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Offline Ninjabait

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Re: Top 5 2017 Albums
« Reply #105 on: December 18, 2017, 06:59:24 PM »
I went on rateyourmusic, searched Chamber Pop and narrowed the search to albums from 2010s. It was #7 on the list, and I managed to find it on Spotify. I don't know if it's on Amazon or iTunes because I honestly haven't used either in months.

I find a lot of good new music this way.

Offline Moor

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Re: Top 5 2017 Albums
« Reply #106 on: December 19, 2017, 05:42:06 AM »
Because of this thread, I listened (several times) to the following albums which were not on my top 5:

Pain of Salvation - The Passing Light of Day
Threshold - Legends of the Shire
SOA-Psychotic Symphony

I was blown away by POS and Threshold! Especially the POS album!
I enjoyed listening to SOA (for 3 times) but there is nothing making me want to listen to it again.

Offline Dreammajesty

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Re: Top 5 2017 Albums
« Reply #107 on: December 19, 2017, 12:15:37 PM »
Here are mine :

Anathema - the optimist
Ayreon - the source
Mastodon - emperor of sand
Primus - the desaturating seven
Manchester Orchestra - a black mile to the surface
The Dear Hunter - all is as all should be
Myrkur - mareridt
Leprous - malina
Soen - lykaia

Offline Kattoelox

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Re: Top 5 2017 Albums
« Reply #108 on: December 19, 2017, 01:24:32 PM »
Strongly considering putting Eminem's new album in my top 5..

Offline Zantera

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Re: Top 5 2017 Albums
« Reply #109 on: December 25, 2017, 12:26:03 PM »
1. Amplifier - Trippin' With Dr. Faustus
2. King Gizzard & the Lizard Wizard - Polygondwanaland
3. Converge - The Dusk in Us
4. Brand New - Science Fiction
5. Kairon; IRSE! - Ruination

https://rateyourmusic.com/list/Zantera/favorite-albums-of-2017/

Offline busty sinclair

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Re: Top 5 2017 Albums
« Reply #110 on: December 26, 2017, 07:42:12 AM »
my top ten for the year

1) steven wilson- to the bone
2) mastodon- the emperor of sand
3) toehider- good
4) pain of salvation- the passing light of day
5) anathema- the optimist
6) big big train- grimspound
7) the contortionist- clairvoyant
8) leprous- manila
9) sons of apollo- psychotic symphony
10) caligulas horse- in contact

Offline Tomislav95

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Re: Top 5 2017 Albums
« Reply #111 on: December 26, 2017, 08:01:58 AM »
Hey guys. I started to count your votes already but feel free to update your list until (let's say) January 7th. And I'd like you to order your lists as that way your votes mean more to overall score. Thanks!

Here's my updated list:

1. Mastodon - Emperor of Sand
2. Pain of Salvation - In the Passing Light of Day
3. Lorde - Melodrama
3. Soen - Lykaia
5. Steven Wilson - To the Bone

...and all 2017 albums I heard, ranked:
https://rateyourmusic.com/list/Ghost_of_Perdition/2017-albums-ranked/
And I knew exactly what to do. But in a much more real sense, I had no idea what to do. - Michael Scott

Offline Parama

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Re: Top 5 2017 Albums
« Reply #112 on: December 26, 2017, 09:43:27 AM »
this still isn't final but i wanna have at least one list up before the year's over so w/e

1. The Hirsch Effekt - Eskapist
2. Venenum - Trance of Death
3. Der Weg einer Freiheit - Finisterre
4. Enslaved - E
5. Cormorant - Diaspora
6. Lorde - Melodrama
7. White Ward - Futility Report
8. Progenie Terrestre Pura - oltreLuna
9. Brand New - Science Fiction
10. Exist - So True, So Bound

HMs (no order):
Fen - Winter
Pain of Salvation - In the Passing Light of Day
Shade Empire - Poetry of the Ill-Minded
Xanthochroid - Of Erthe and Axen (tbh I still have yet to listen to both acts together though, hard to find a good 90 mins to do so :facepalm:)

Xanthochroid may make the list proper & I'm still waiting on Adimiron to ship + a few other late year releases I wanna check out so I dunno but this is still pretty good for now

Offline Train of Naught

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Re: Top 5 2017 Albums
« Reply #113 on: December 26, 2017, 10:02:10 AM »
The new Adimiron is pretty adimehron, too bad you already purchased it

Xanthochroid: The album with a great first act and "why did you guys make this into a double album" second act. Second act is still good, just could've easily combined its best moments with the first act's best moment to make a 1 hour album.

Tomislav you can replace my old top 5 with this one, Brand New and Converge replaced Soen and Ulver. Hirsch Effekt is also climbing rankings, prob top 10 now but not top 5

1. Artificial Language - The Observer
2. Leprous - Malina
3. The Contortionist - Clairvoyant
4. Brand New - Science Fiction
5. Converge - The Dusk In Us

Too many honorable mentions to go through right now. The highs of this year weren't as high as 2016 (but that's never gonna happen anyways) but there were a lot of great releases

Offline Parama

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Re: Top 5 2017 Albums
« Reply #114 on: December 26, 2017, 10:12:03 AM »
i dug the album when i listened to it so whatever  :corn
eww artificial language though

Offline Evermind

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Re: Top 5 2017 Albums
« Reply #115 on: December 26, 2017, 10:17:13 AM »
I don't know if I should do the list this year, I haven't checked a lot of albums at all, hoping to fix that in 2018. But here we go:

1. Pain of Salvation - The Passing Light of Day
2. Leprous - Malina
3. Need - Hegaiamas
4. Artificial Language - The Observer
5. Ayreon - The Source



Offline twosuitsluke

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Re: Top 5 2017 Albums
« Reply #116 on: December 26, 2017, 03:34:54 PM »
I'm trying to compile my ranking of all the albums I've given a good listen to this year (probably like 30+ I guess) but I'm pretty sure my top 5 is set:

1. Mastodon - Emperor of Sand
2. Leprous - Malina
3. Artificial Language - The Observer
4. Steven Wilson - To the Bone
5. The Hirsch Effekt - Eskapist

Saying that though, The Dear Hunter are releasing their new EP in a few days so that is almost definitely going to be in my top 5. I can't see it not! It's gonna have to be quite special to knock Emperor of Sand off my top spot but who knows.

So my updated list has only changed slightly:

1. Mastodon - Emperor of Sand
2. Leprous - Malina
3. Artificial Language - The Observer
4. Steven Wilson - To the Bone
5. The Dear Hunter - All is as All Should Be (EP)

I've only got like two albums to rank out of all the albums I listened to this year. I'll try and get that sorted at some point.

Offline Puppies_On_Acid

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Re: Top 5 2017 Albums
« Reply #117 on: December 26, 2017, 05:26:08 PM »

eww artificial language though
Agreed. Everyone around here kept talking it up like it was the best album of the year.....Let's just say I was disappointed.

Offline Elite

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Re: Top 5 2017 Albums
« Reply #118 on: December 27, 2017, 04:17:59 AM »
Will do a proper list later.

Let's make a definitive list now. I don't expect myself to listen to much more new stuff before the year is over. This year I've listening to 'older' stuff way more than new music, so my list is quite short. I only listened to to 33 albums released this year and I don't want to rank them all. Here's a top 10:

(1. Radiohead - OK Computer OKNOTOK 1997-2017)
Yes, I know this is a freaking reissue, but this is the best sounding re-release I have ever heard. The bonus tracks are a huge plus as well. Since OK Computer is a top 10-15 album of all time for me, not having this one top the list would be ridiculous. Phenomenal stuff!


1. Ulver - The Assassination of Julius Caesar
Ulver cemented themselves as one of my favourite musical groups by the end of last year. They completely blew me away with this particular record as well. Astounding achievement from an ever-evolving band.

2. Steven Wilson - To the Bone
I can see how many people would not enjoy the pop-direction Steven Wilson chose on this record, but honestly, I think the people who say that are deceiving themselves; Steven Wilson has always had lots of pop influences in all his work. They're just more on the forefront here and my god, he sure knows how to exploit them. This man never disappoints.

3. Caligula's Horse - In Contact
I might be in the minority here, but I think this album is amazing. Not groundbreaking by any means, for the progressive metal music these guys make is rather straight-forward. It's just done so well that I can't help but rock out every time I hear this album. Quality stuff.

4. Leprous - Malina
Took me way too long to get into this record and, while I don't believe it's nearly as strong as the predecessors (in fact, I think the only album they have made that's worse is Coal, this disc surely has a lot of great moments. It's not without reason that these guys are at the helm of modern progressive metal today.

5. Semistereo - Trans Earth Injection
Some love for my fellow countrymen of Semistereo. Got into these guys way too late and should have done so a lot earlier. They're great guys and this album, which was completely DIY in every single aspect, could floor you easily. It's heavy, it's not, it's progressive, it's post, it's poppy and technical, all at once.

6-10 (unranked)
Perihelion Ship - To Paint a Bird of Fire
Pain of Salvation - In the Passing Light of Day
Anathema - The Optimist
Mastodon - Emperor of Sand
Overhaul - Notes by an Unstable Muser (yeah, that's my own band :lol)
Hey dude slow the fuck down so we can finish together at the same time.  :biggrin:
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Offline Lethean

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Re: Top 5 2017 Albums
« Reply #119 on: December 27, 2017, 08:42:55 AM »
Need - Hegaiamas
Leprous - Malina
Threshold - Legends of the Shires
Voyager - Ghost Mile

Not sure about #5 yet. I still have some albums to get to and it won't be until next week.

Offline Puppies_On_Acid

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Re: Top 5 2017 Albums
« Reply #120 on: December 27, 2017, 08:50:37 AM »
I have about 12 more albums that I need to properly rank. Once I do that my list will be set in stone. Hopefully by the end of this week. I have high hopes for Perihelion Ship and Xanthochroid breaking the top 10.

Offline Pettor

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Re: Top 5 2017 Albums
« Reply #121 on: December 28, 2017, 04:23:42 AM »
Been a slow and maybe disappointing year for new releases. Leprous, Aryeon and Steven Wilson all wasn't my cup of tea. However, discovered a lot of old prog rock album that I love and, in the end, seeing Pain of Salvation back was  :metal

1. Pain of Salvation - In The Passing Light of Day
If they released The Passing Light of Day as a single track it would still destroy all the competition this year. Great come back!

2. Thåström - Centralmassivet
This is a Swedish artist. Great stuff.

3. Major Parkinsson - Blackbox
Such a great surprise. This sounds like Sleepytime Gorilla Museum goes progressive.

4. Big Big Train - Grimspund
Folklore is better but this is none the least a great new album.

5. Ayreon - The Source
A bit disappointing but still always some stuff on Ayreon album I can't avoid no matter how cheesy. The Ayreon formula is getting a bit repetitive and maybe even a bit uninspired.

Offline Ninjabait

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Re: Top 5 2017 Albums
« Reply #122 on: December 30, 2017, 04:05:56 PM »
I'm going to give this as my final, official ranking of the 50 newly released albums I listened to this year. No thoughts or brief reviews of any sort, since there's...y'know, 50 albums.

5.0/5.0
01. Ne Obliviscaris - Urn
02. Lorde - Melodrama

4.5/5.0
03. Diablo Swing Orchestra - Pacifisticuffs
04. Soen - Lykaia
05. Artificial Language - The Observer

4.0/5.0
06. Ayreon - The Source
07. Dear Hunter - All is As All Should Be
08. Taylor Swift - reputation
09. The Hirsch Effekt - Eskapist
10. Epica - The Solace System
11. Big Big Train - The Second Brightest Star
12. Enslaved - E
13. Flux Conduct - Yetzer Hara
14. Mastodon - Emperor of Sand
15. Mastodon - Cold Dark Place
16. We Came as Romans - Cold Like War
17. Leprous - Malina
18. King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard - Polygondwanaland
19. Trivium - The Sin and the Sentence
20. Persefone - Aathma
21. Infected Mushroom - Return to the Sauce
22. The Dark Element - The Dark Element
23. Caligula's Horse - In Contact
24. Краснознамённая дивизия имени моей бабушки - Посмертные приключения
25. Epica - Epica vs Attack on Titan Songs

3.5/5.0
26. Ed Sheeran - Divide [Deluxe Edition]
27. Bent Knee - Land Animal
28. Scale the Summit - In a World of Fear
29. Steven Wilson - To the Bone
30. Demi Lovato - Tell Me You Love Me
31. Threshold - Legends of the Shires
32. Nova Collective - The Further Side
33. Big Big Train - Grimspound
34. Paramore - After Laughter
35. Pain of Salvation - In the Passing Light of Day
36. Lana Del Ray - Lust for Life
37. Lindsey Stirling - Warmer in the Winter
38. Dragonforce - Reaching Into Infinity
39. The Thirteenth Sun - Stardust
40. Queens of the Stone Age - Villains
41. Hadise - Şampiyon
42. Anathema - The Optimist

3.0/5.0
43. Toehider - Good
44. Incubus - 8
45. Dutch Uncles - Big Balloon
46. Converge - The Dusk in Us

2.5/5.0
47. Sons of Apollo - Psychotic Symphony
48. Iglooghost - Neō Wax Bloom

2.0/5.0
49. Igorrr - Savage Sinusoid

1.5/5.0
50. Mount Eerie - A Crow Looked At Me

Offline Anguyen92

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Re: Top 5 2017 Albums
« Reply #123 on: December 30, 2017, 04:51:15 PM »
^^ About your list, I find it humorous that if you google translate "Краснознамённая дивизия имени моей бабушки - Посмертные приключения," you would get "Red Banner Division named after my grandmother - Posthumous Adventures." 

Anyway, I'm surprised to see a Lorde album get mentioned here as well as rated highly.  For me, I did not enjoy it, except for her last track, but honestly, I came to the conclusion that it's just not going to be for me.

Ed Sheeran's Divide album still tops the pop album of 2017 for me and is honestly, my album of the year.  The reason mainly is that with the exception of "Shape of You" I had a enjoyable listen to it front-to-back while the majority of the albums I heard I thought, "Good album, a few great songs here, but the overall album listening experience was not great as I hoped."

All right, this is actually my final top 5 albums ordering for 2017.

1. Ed Sheeran's Divide
2. Big Wreck's Grace Street
3. Trivium's The Sin and the Sentence
4. Mastodon's Emperor of Sand
5. Steven Wilson's To The Bone
« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 05:04:34 PM by Anguyen92 »

Offline Parama

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Re: Top 5 2017 Albums
« Reply #124 on: December 30, 2017, 05:52:52 PM »
melodrama is a grower, i liked at first but reeaally like it by now, dozens of spins later

Offline devieira73

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Re: Top 5 2017 Albums
« Reply #125 on: December 30, 2017, 06:05:27 PM »
My 10 favorites, in no particular order:
Pain of salvation - In the passing light of day. A great combination of PoS from the first 4 CDs with the Road Salts.
Mastodon - Emperor of Sand. A continuation of the excellent and more accessible phase of the band.
Sons of Apollo - Psychotic Symphony. Nice cross between FII, SC, BC&SL and classic rock.
KXM - Scatterbrained. Killer hard groove rock with a monster drummer.
Living Colour - Shade. Almost at the same level of the fantastic first three.
Steven Wilson - To the bone. Excellent prog pop. Excellent Steven Wilson as always.
Revolution Saints - Light in the Dark. AOR done with perfection.
Next to None - Phases. Prog metal with a lot of originality IMO.
Marty Friedman - Wall of Sound. Very impressive. Almost all instrumental, very creative and diverse, yet relentlessly heavy.
Primus - The Desaturating Seven. A version of the classic Primus, with a prog and psychedelic edge.
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Offline Ninjabait

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Re: Top 5 2017 Albums
« Reply #126 on: December 30, 2017, 06:27:22 PM »
^^ About your list, I find it humorous that if you google translate "Краснознамённая дивизия имени моей бабушки - Посмертные приключения," you would get "Red Banner Division named after my grandmother - Posthumous Adventures."

I noticed that too haha. I have no idea what the story behind that name is, but it's probably one of my favorite band names right now. 

Anyway, I'm surprised to see a Lorde album get mentioned here as well as rated highly.  For me, I did not enjoy it, except for her last track, but honestly, I came to the conclusion that it's just not going to be for me.

Understandable, honestly. I'm a big Lorde fan and I like pop music in general which makes me a bit of a unicorn among progheads I guess. I gave my thoughts on the album earlier on in the thread, so I'll skip explaining myself again, but it's an album I really enjoy.

melodrama is a grower, i liked at first but reeaally like it by now, dozens of spins later

Also, this. Both of her albums were huge growers for me (Melodrama less so because it basically just went from a 4.5 to a 5). I didn't even like Pure Heroine at first (to be fair this was back when I was a bit more musically close-minded and didn't like much pop on principle), but I listened to it again a year or two ago and found that I actually really digged it. It just kind of "clicked" for me.

Ed Sheeran's Divide album still tops the pop album of 2017 for me and is honestly, my album of the year.  The reason mainly is that with the exception of "Shape of You" I had a enjoyable listen to it front-to-back while the majority of the albums I heard I thought, "Good album, a few great songs here, but the overall album listening experience was not great as I hoped."

That's pretty much my exact thoughts on the album. It has a lot of really great tunes on it, but it ends on a rather disappointing note (ending with a weak ballad? What?) in both the regular and deluxe versions and the album doesn't "flow" as well as I would like. That, and Ed Sheeran rapping is something I can tbh live without.

Offline devieira73

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Re: Top 5 2017 Albums
« Reply #127 on: December 30, 2017, 06:47:23 PM »
I forgot Sepultura - Machine Messiah. Really powerful and complex album by the band!
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Offline Mladen

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Re: Top 5 2017 Albums
« Reply #128 on: December 30, 2017, 11:13:07 PM »
1.5/5.0
50. Mount Eerie - A Crow Looked At Me
I know almost nothing about this album, but I've seen reviewers list it as one of the best albums of the year. Care to elaborate the low grade?

Offline Parama

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Re: Top 5 2017 Albums
« Reply #129 on: December 30, 2017, 11:22:51 PM »
it's literally not art & incredibly one note
one of the reviewers i follow refused to rate it because of how it was literally not art
everyone else praises it for being "an interesting reflection on death" despite it literally not being that
i listened to it once and got everything i would ever need from it out of that one listen and have no clue what people are seeing in it besides that

Offline Zantera

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Re: Top 5 2017 Albums
« Reply #130 on: December 31, 2017, 03:56:12 AM »
It's a pretty solid lo-fi singer/songwriter album, VERY minimalist sounding. Whether that's your thing or not will highly affect how you grade it. Emotional lyrics but what some would call lacking music to go with it. I personally enjoyed it (though not one of the best of the year for me), but could easily see why someone wouldn't. If you're not hugely into lyrics and the message of the music, you won't really get much from it musically, which is kinda my problem with it.

Offline NoseofNicko

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Re: Top 5 2017 Albums
« Reply #131 on: December 31, 2017, 03:58:52 AM »
it's literally not art

What the fuck does that even mean?

Offline Nachtmerrie

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Re: Top 5 2017 Albums
« Reply #132 on: December 31, 2017, 05:16:25 AM »
1. Mastodon - Emperor of Sand (+ Cold Dark Place)
2. Ne Obliviscaris - Urn
3. Soen - Lykaia
4. Threshold - Legends of the Shires
5. Need - Hegaiamas: a Song for Freedom

1. Mastodon - Emperor of Sand (+ Cold Dark Place)
2. Ne Obliviscaris - Urn
3. Soen - Lykaia
4. Caligula's Horse - In Contact
5. Need - Hegaiamas: a Song for Freedom

Got some great recommendations out of this topic.
I gave Artificial Language, Enslaved and Xanthochroid a first spin and will revisit them next for week.

Same with Daydream XI and ZAIUS which I discovered recently form the Ultimatemetal top 50 by Harvester

Offline Ninjabait

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Re: Top 5 2017 Albums
« Reply #133 on: December 31, 2017, 07:30:05 AM »
1.5/5.0
50. Mount Eerie - A Crow Looked At Me
I know almost nothing about this album, but I've seen reviewers list it as one of the best albums of the year. Care to elaborate the low grade?

Sure thing. I'll give what little background on the album I know first: this album was essentially Phil Elverum performing a "musical exorcism" to move past the death of his wife. I don't know much about him, his wife, or the situation (this is literally my introduction to his work) so I'll refrain from going into too much detail to avoid getting something wrong. It's essentially 45ish minutes of letting it all out so the grief doesn't overcome him. I saw a lot of people (on rym at least) give it good scores or no scores because of this. The phrase "I think giving this album a score misses the point" came up a lot. It's definitely and very obviously an album that he needed to make, but it's SO extremely personal that it's almost impossible to relate to at times.

That said, I evaluate albums based on the music in it, not the background. This album, musically speaking, is bad. The arrangements are sparse to the point of being uninteresting and dull, the production is sloppy, some of the lyrical phrasing can be pretentious and ridiculous at times ("When I take out the garbage at night / I'm not exactly with you / I'm with the universe"), and the singing and melodic writing is bad. He mumbles through each line, sings completely in monotone, and wrote some of the most unnatural, meandering, and exhausting melodic lines. Each melodic line just stumbles head-long into the next one, and lacks any sort of stable construction. There's no melodic phrasing, rhythmic structure, or anything of the sort. This is probably a by-product of the lyrics (which aren't lyrics so much as blog/letter-esque writing), and the endless recitative effect gets tiring. Fast.

The problem is that if the album were about literally anything else, I think it would not have been evaluated so highly. But because of how personal it is, reviewers are afraid to show any negative thought towards it (heck, that thought crossed my mind once or twice). I'm a huge proponent (both as a listener and an artist) of "the death of the author". I believe that when evaluating any piece of art (whether it be literary, visual, film, or music) the actual person who wrote it and their thoughts, intentions, and biography should not be considered. I don't need to know that Mozart wrote his Requiem while dying, or that Freddie Mercury sang "The Show Must Go On" in one take while literally dying from AIDs, or that Beethoven's 9th Symphony was the first symphony to incorporate choral elements. Those facts don't affect my enjoyment of those pieces of music. The art should be able to stand on its own, and I don't think this particular piece of art does.

Offline Mladen

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Re: Top 5 2017 Albums
« Reply #134 on: December 31, 2017, 10:42:44 AM »
Great post, thanks for the insight.  :tup

I think the albums sometimes can benefit quite a bit from the context and personal meanings, but they also need to stand on their own. When both factors come together, the album can be truly fantastic.

Offline Puppies_On_Acid

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Re: Top 5 2017 Albums
« Reply #135 on: December 31, 2017, 11:51:56 AM »
I plan on doing a top 100 of 2017 at some point in January. So far I've listened to 253 albums enough to be able to rank them, but I have several more that I need to give a few more listens to. And yes I listen to a lot of new music every year.....

As of right now my top 5 are...
1. Der Weg Einer Freiheit - Finisterre
2. The Great Old Ones - EOD: A Tale of Dark Legacy
3. The Hirsch Effekt - Eskapist
4. Ne Obliviscaris - Urn
5. Caligula's Horse - In Contact

These could change at any time up to the end of the year though.
Update of my top 5.
1. Der Weg Einer Freiheit - Finisterre
2. The Great Old Ones - EOD: A Tale of Dark Legacy
3. The Hirsch Effekt - Eskapist
4. Ne Obliviscaris - Urn
5. Dvne - Asheran

Still not sure if the new Xanthochroid album will crack my top 5. I'll give it a couple more listens.

Offline Parama

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Re: Top 5 2017 Albums
« Reply #136 on: December 31, 2017, 12:20:30 PM »
i've tried and tried with EOD and just can't get much out of it (hence not buying it despite that i've listened through it like, 4-5 times LOL  :facepalm:)
A+ to your #1 and #3 though, of course

Offline Puppies_On_Acid

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Re: Top 5 2017 Albums
« Reply #137 on: December 31, 2017, 01:42:49 PM »
I've seen lots of mixed reviews for EOD, so it's understandable it doesn't work for everyone, but for me everything just clicked.

Offline Lowdz

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Re: Top 5 2017 Albums
« Reply #138 on: December 31, 2017, 02:30:17 PM »
A recent YouTube find has to feature in my list.

Daydream XI - The Circus of the Tattered and Torn.

Prog metal. DTesque. Concept album. Lots of widdly widdly. Very good singer.


Offline bl5150

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Re: Top 5 2017 Albums
« Reply #139 on: December 31, 2017, 02:32:50 PM »
A recent YouTube find has to feature in my list.

Daydream XI - The Circus of the Tattered and Torn.

Prog metal. DTesque. Concept album. Lots of widdly widdly. Very good singer.

I liked that one and it'll feature in the podcast but for me there was something not quite there in the songwriting (vs the technical skill) on many of the tracks -only one track where everything came together for me.  But they have huge potential .
"I would just like to say that after all these years of heavy drinking, bright lights and late nights, I still don't need glasses. I drink right out of the bottle." - DLR