Author Topic: Harvey Weinstein  (Read 12033 times)

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Offline bosk1

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #700 on: December 16, 2017, 09:17:43 PM »
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline The King in Crimson

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #701 on: December 17, 2017, 03:30:39 PM »
Inevitable.
http://bravewords.com/news/gene-simmons-sued-by-tv-radio-broadcaster-for-unwanted-unwarranted-sexual-advances

This may very well be the least surprising thing I have heard in my entire life.
I wonder if there will be a separate suit filed against his tongue.


Yes, I know, I'm sorry. That joke was really tasteless. I apologize.

Offline Kattoelox

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #702 on: December 18, 2017, 08:08:51 AM »
Inevitable.
http://bravewords.com/news/gene-simmons-sued-by-tv-radio-broadcaster-for-unwanted-unwarranted-sexual-advances

This may very well be the least surprising thing I have heard in my entire life.
I wonder if there will be a separate suit filed against his tongue.


Yes, I know, I'm sorry. That joke was really tasteless. I apologize.

Oh come on, it's funny. You made a good joke

Offline cramx3

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #703 on: December 18, 2017, 09:47:56 AM »
https://www.yahoo.com/news/mario-batali-apologizes-sexual-harassment-180325332.html

Wow, that apology has me in tears laughing, but this is ridiculous that these people think this is the OK way to apologize.

Offline sylvan

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #704 on: December 18, 2017, 09:48:55 AM »
Inevitable.
http://bravewords.com/news/gene-simmons-sued-by-tv-radio-broadcaster-for-unwanted-unwarranted-sexual-advances

This may very well be the least surprising thing I have heard in my entire life.
I wonder if there will be a separate suit filed against his tongue.


Yes, I know, I'm sorry. That joke was really tasteless. I apologize.

Oh come on, it's funny. You made a good joke

Can a joke about a tongue be tasteless?  :hat

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #705 on: December 18, 2017, 11:56:43 AM »
https://www.yahoo.com/news/mario-batali-apologizes-sexual-harassment-180325332.html

Wow, that apology has me in tears laughing, but this is ridiculous that these people think this is the OK way to apologize.

I'm more curious about that "rape room".

But all these incidents happened in the past, which is now biting them in the ass. Thats why you don't get too drunk and stupid, doing idiotic things. If you did at least live up to it.

These rape allegations are just that allegations. These people are employed by companies, which likely have a no tolerance policy, and were probably silent about a lot of it. Since its now known, the company can't be silent anymore and has to implement its policy by firing or releasing said person.

Its up to the judge/jury to decide if they're innocent or guilty. So if you're upset that they're losing their jobs or getting their careers ruined then complain to the company that fired them, not the accusers.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #706 on: December 18, 2017, 11:59:47 AM »
Not sure if that was a general statement or directed at me, but my comment was only about how his apology was a joke since it had "PS. Check out my new recipe" at the end of it.  Just boggles my mind that they think that's a good thing to include in an apology.  Almost as good as Spacey's coming out of the closet at the end of his apology.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #707 on: December 18, 2017, 12:44:59 PM »
I'm kind of fascinated by apologies in this context. I'm not sure it's even worth it. Kind of seems like you when you issue an apology you're just going on Maury Povich and waiting to see if the cretins in the audience cheer or boo. Acting is just as important as facts or truth now. It's like a high-stakes version of At the Movies.

"Well, I liked the way he worded it, but it just didn't seem quite sincere enough."
"Oh, I don't know, Roger, I thought he was very well meaning and seemed genuinely remorseful."
"But what about the cookie recipe? That didn't turn you off?"
"It seemed out of place, but I think he was trying to interject a bit of levity in there, and it didn't effect what I saw as an earnest attempt to own up to his actions."
"Well, there you have it folks. Gene thought it was a well meaning apology, interjected with bits of humor, and I think he's a fucking asshole who should be shot into the sun."
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #708 on: December 18, 2017, 12:47:36 PM »
Yea but if you just apologize it allows people to start to get over it.  No one talks about Louis CK anymore.  Yet, Hoffman, Spacey, and the rest are routinely in the news.  I'm pretty sure it's mostly BS, but I think it helps getting the media off your ass to just do it.  But adding a recipe just seems like you missed the point completely even if it is all BS.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #709 on: December 18, 2017, 12:55:31 PM »
Not sure if that was a general statement or directed at me, but my comment was only about how his apology was a joke since it had "PS. Check out my new recipe" at the end of it.  Just boggles my mind that they think that's a good thing to include in an apology.  Almost as good as Spacey's coming out of the closet at the end of his apology.

Just a statement. And yeah I agree, its interesting seeing these half-ass, required, forces apologies. I'm not dismissing them as not having feeling, nor am I defending their actions.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #710 on: December 18, 2017, 01:33:05 PM »
Yea but if you just apologize it allows people to start to get over it.  No one talks about Louis CK anymore.  Yet, Hoffman, Spacey, and the rest are routinely in the news.  I'm pretty sure it's mostly BS, but I think it helps getting the media off your ass to just do it.  But adding a recipe just seems like you missed the point completely even if it is all BS.
Which is just as bad, in my book. Lewis CK's apology has to have been the most stunningly full of shit one to date, simply because he's smart enough to it was. Whereas, before the landslide of allegations, Spacey got destroyed for his and I thought it was perfectly reasonable.

Here's what I can tell you. If I were accused of something like this, there's no way I could issue a sincere apology. It's just not within me. It wouldn't come off as sincere and I'd probably instinctively throw in a "but" here and there. However, I bet I could write a perfect one with absolutely no semblance of truthiness and sell it.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #711 on: December 18, 2017, 01:52:36 PM »
And would you go that route then?

It's most certainly easier to write out an apology than actually give a heart felt one.  I'd also bet that some of these people are not sorry, just saying it.  I'm sure some don't even understand or "get it" when it comes to waht they did wrong, but do the apology due to pressure, which I think none of us "buy" but it does get the media and pressure off your back.  It does allow people to move on.  If I were in these guys shoes, I'd own up and try to move on.  Just to allow the media to continue to bash you, only makes more people hate you and make it harder to continue your career. 

As much as I agree with Louis' BS apology, I think he's more likely to make a comeback in his career than some of the others because he addressed it quickly and didn't tag along jokes with it or try to sell a product.  It may have been BS but it was sincere BS.

Offline lordxizor

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #712 on: December 18, 2017, 02:22:28 PM »
I doubt any of the apologies are sincere. Not that quickly after the allegations come out. At that point they're only sorry they got called out and are probably at least partially in denial that they even did anything wrong. It takes time and reflection to become truly sincere with stuff like this.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #713 on: December 18, 2017, 03:27:51 PM »
And would you go that route then?
Hell yeah. If it's all bullshit anyway, might as well play the game to win. Like I said when his story first came out, I'd make stuff up to apologize for, just to get away from the nonsense stuff he was on the hook for. Apologizing for bullshit would just make me angry and ruin the attempt.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #714 on: December 19, 2017, 10:57:24 AM »
I doubt any of the apologies are sincere. Not that quickly after the allegations come out. At that point they're only sorry they got called out and are probably at least partially in denial that they even did anything wrong. It takes time and reflection to become truly sincere with stuff like this.

They're only sorry they got fired and are issuing apologies which seem to be..."I got fired for doing this and I'm sorry."
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #715 on: December 20, 2017, 08:26:50 PM »
Am I the only one that thinks the idea of an "apology" is bullshit and just part of the hustle?   Part of the need for the accuser to make the accused bleed a little bit?   

Maybe it's me, but if someone wrongs me, and puts an apology on the front page of a newspaper, I'm saying "No dice".   It's a PR move, nothing more, nothing less. 

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #716 on: December 20, 2017, 10:45:38 PM »
I thought it was generally accepted that these apologies are just part of the game. Having been in a courtroom a few times, there is definitely a sense of "I am truly sorry I got caught your honor." He needs to hear you say it. In my cases, they weren't allegations. I was 100% guilty. Was I sorry for what I did? Definitely. Was I sorry I got caught? Hell yes. But apologizing to the judge is a lot different than doing it to the "court of public opinion."
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Offline Adami

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #717 on: December 20, 2017, 10:53:20 PM »
Would you guy prefer it if the wrong doer apologized directly to the victim and not on social media or in the press?
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #718 on: December 21, 2017, 12:29:48 AM »
Were you asking me? If an accused wants to apologize to their victim, that is their choice, just as it is the victim's choice to accept their apology or not. If an accused celebrity wants to issue an apology to the public as they are a public figure, that is fine, I will decide whether or not to accept your apology. Just don't make it this grand twitter spectacle. Let's not shame or guilt this person in to an apology for something they 1) don't feel sorry for, 2) don't recall doing 3) honestly don't feel they did anything wrong.   
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #719 on: December 21, 2017, 08:50:05 AM »
I thought it was generally accepted that these apologies are just part of the game. Having been in a courtroom a few times, there is definitely a sense of "I am truly sorry I got caught your honor." He needs to hear you say it. In my cases, they weren't allegations. I was 100% guilty. Was I sorry for what I did? Definitely. Was I sorry I got caught? Hell yes. But apologizing to the judge is a lot different than doing it to the "court of public opinion."
In general, I tend to agree.  But I also don't think it is that black and white either, and I think there ARE reasons why a public apology can sometimes be a good thing and not simply PR/damage control.  Yes, in many cases it seems to be just that.  I'm not arguing with you.  But let's take a hypothetical situation.

This is a completely made up example.  But let's take a male celebrity with a really big fan following and let's say he went through a period where he did truly engage in some out-of-bounds despicable conduct.  But then something happens where he truly gains an understanding and appreciation for how wrong he was and how he hurt people, and he is genuinely sorry and even tries to go back and make amends where possible.  Other than a few people behind closed doors, nobody else knows about it.  And he doesn't publicly come out about it, because why would anyone?  But he continues to try to do what he can to make amends and do good work behind the scenes.  Years later, what he did comes to light.  At that point, he has at least two choices:  (1) stay silent, and in doing so, have the court of public opinion write him off and lump him in with Harvey Weinstein and all the others and just assume that silence = guilt and the guy must just be a typical run-of-the-mill Hollywood dirtbag; or (2) do his best to offer a public apology.  With #2, he can at least try to repair some of the damage done by what he did by continuing to be an advocate and letting people know that, although he is like all the others in that he did the things he was accused of, he is not like the others in that he truly acknowledges the problem and wants to make right.  I think there is a lot of value to the second approach.

The world will always have bad people who do bad things, as well as good people who do bad things and later regret it.  While I agree that, generally, trying to make something right is best done behind the scenes and not in a way as to garner public approval.  But sometimes, I think society is better when we allow fallen heroes the opportunity to get back up instead of just shuffling them off out of sight while sharpening our pitchforks and waiting for the next witch hunt.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #720 on: December 23, 2017, 03:46:08 PM »
Would you guy prefer it if the wrong doer apologized directly to the victim and not on social media or in the press?

Deeply.    In person.  Face them, and man up - not through a publicist, not via a Twitter handle - and look them in the eye.   

Offline Adami

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #721 on: December 23, 2017, 03:55:07 PM »
Would you guy prefer it if the wrong doer apologized directly to the victim and not on social media or in the press?

Deeply.    In person.  Face them, and man up - not through a publicist, not via a Twitter handle - and look them in the eye.   

I agree. Given logistics, I get that in person isnít always possible, but if the victim wishes to publucally talk about a private person apology, fine, but yes. All of these apologies should be directly to the person and private.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #722 on: December 23, 2017, 07:29:32 PM »
Totally agree.  Not sure why these things need to be aired in public.  Other than if someone is a habitual offender, then maybe they need to be shamed into knocking it off.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #723 on: December 23, 2017, 07:32:13 PM »
The only people who I can see needing to ALSO apologize publicly are politicians, since they actually represent the public and should apologize to the public, but also should apologize privately to the victim.
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Offline Phoenix87x

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #724 on: December 27, 2017, 03:26:39 PM »
For anyone that has 30 mins and doesn't mind subtitles, here is how Spain and Isreal approaches allegations:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjgBfklmYj8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahZTWBB26Cw

Thoughts?
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #725 on: January 13, 2018, 08:07:00 AM »
For those who had followed this story a few months back...

We have a guy at work who would absolutely be fired if the woman he makes comments to ever reported him to HR.  Long story short, he wanted to date, she did not (despite leading him on big time), and he is a little bitter about it.  If I ever hear him say anything, I will usually tell him to simmer down or knock it off (we are friendly, but he is a very socially awkward guy who complains all the time about everything), and he just laughs it off and says that he is sure a day will come when he gets fired.  She usually tells him to shut the hell up and then 10 minutes they are talking and laughing (they sit 15 feet from each other, backs to each other).  For example, she usually comes to work in jeans and a hoodie (we are business casual, but they don't really enforce it as long as you do a good job; I dress up every day except on Casual Friday because I like dressing nice. but that is another story :lol), but on her kid's first day of preschool, she came in wearing a sun dress and he apparently made the comment to her that he wanted her to sit on his face.  No one else heard it - she told someone about it and I heard about it eventually - but that is so inappropriate and just plain disrespectful. 

My boss is aware of the bitterness on his part and all of that nonsense, but I doubt he is aware of the comments he makes, and I am not about to be the one to report him to HR; that is not my place.  Maybe I am wrong for thinking that way, but I am not about to go get someone fired.  I think some would throw this under the "he knows about it and does nothing" banner, but I do not think it is that black and white.  Anyone disagree?

I honestly do not know if it makes her uncomfortable.  They have a hot and cold "friendship."  She is very bipolar, and if she is being nice to him, they get along great, but if she is not, he gets all upset and literally won't talk to anyone. It's pretty messed up, really.  She told him she would go out with him last winter if he bought her an Apple Watch for V-Day, so he did :facepalm:, and of course she didn't go out with him.  Then, right before her birthday this summer, she really hooked him in again, and boom, he bought her a Coach purse, and again, no date.  We are now prepping for her to reel him again just long enough for Christmas. :lol :lol  She is basically a terrible person.  Not that she deserves to be sexually harassed (no one does!!), but just giving more insight as to why he probably says the shit he does.  He is a big fan of the South Park style of humor, so he is basically firing that kind of humor at her to take shots as payback for continuously jerking him around.  Like I said, it really is messed up. 

If/when the day comes that he gets the axe for sexual harassment, he will absolutely deserve it.

..here is an update:

-The 22-year old woman in this story quit two weeks ago and our boss told her last Thursday that it would be her last day (1 day shy of the first of her two weeks notice).  She basically saved him the trouble of firing her the next time she made a glaring mistake at work; she had been suspended for a day the prior week for not being helpful at all with training someone new in her mini-department.  She saw the writing on the wall, especially since had been there for 2 1/2 years and was still in the same entry level position, while others kept getting hired and moved up. Very few at work will miss her, her attitude and her big mouth.

-The 29-year old socially awkward guy with the massive crush was bummed when her last day was so impromptu and she was gone literally 10 minutes later with barely a word to anyone.  His comment was, "I thought she'd at least give me a hug." :facepalm: :facepalm:  But apparently he had made a comment to her when she had given her notice that he had been looking for a new job for a while, which she let "slip" to the right person (her aunt, who is also an account manager at our company, but she does a great job, unlike the niece), who told the boss.  Earlier this week, my boss (who is a great boss) pulled him into his office for a friendly chat and to see if he was unhappy, and the 29-year old guy, feeling blindsided a tad, basically said that he was tired of his job and he felt that no matter what he does, it is wrong.  That comes from the one customer he manages, who DOES bitch at him for literally everything, not from our boss, who is very up front and will tell you if you are not doing a good job.  Anyway, he told our boss that he wants to quit as soon as he finds something else, and our boss told him that he will hire his replacement and keep him on as long as he can while he looks for something else, which is pretty gracious.  I think he has been unhappy for a while, and now that his crush is gone, he probably figures there is no reason to stay, especially since he probably thinks he is a laughingstock now after the way she strung him along last year and kept getting stuff out of him.

And thus, there ends the drama at work... :tup :tup

Offline lordxizor

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #726 on: January 14, 2018, 08:36:42 PM »
So Aziz Ansari is the latest accused. Now without the full story, what I'm reading is a direct reflection of my huge concerns with the whole movement. It sounds like he was on a date, went back to his place, he was sexually aggressive and now she's accusing him of sexual misconduct. Honestly, other that being horny, I'm not getting anything from the info I've read that anything wrong was done. If she didn't say no or try to stop him there's no way to know she didn't want what he wanted. Maybe there's more to the story, but I just don't get it. I guess for those who think anything less than specifically saying yes in advance is assault.... I don't know. I get that she felt uncomfortable and didn't like what's going on. Honestly I think there are two key things that need to come out of this whole thing. Men need to stop acting like dicks and women need to be empowered to say no right in the moment.

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #727 on: January 14, 2018, 09:34:39 PM »
First of all.. who?

I guess for those who think anything less than specifically saying yes in advance is assault....

It has been a while since I have been single, but my current understanding is more and more people are operating under the notion that without a "yes," there is no consent.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #728 on: January 14, 2018, 09:40:02 PM »



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Offline Phoenix87x

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #729 on: January 15, 2018, 05:11:09 AM »
My mind is my church, and reason is my God.

Offline lordxizor

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #730 on: January 15, 2018, 06:02:20 AM »
Yes means yes has already been law for a while in california

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/09/29/352482932/california-enacts-yes-means-yes-law-defining-sexual-consent


I'm really on the fence about that. Though hopefully it will protect people. I just don't think it's practical at all.

Offline Chino

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #731 on: January 15, 2018, 06:08:12 AM »
So Aziz Ansari is the latest accused. Now without the full story, what I'm reading is a direct reflection of my huge concerns with the whole movement. It sounds like he was on a date, went back to his place, he was sexually aggressive and now she's accusing him of sexual misconduct. Honestly, other that being horny, I'm not getting anything from the info I've read that anything wrong was done. If she didn't say no or try to stop him there's no way to know she didn't want what he wanted. Maybe there's more to the story, but I just don't get it. I guess for those who think anything less than specifically saying yes in advance is assault.... I don't know. I get that she felt uncomfortable and didn't like what's going on. Honestly I think there are two key things that need to come out of this whole thing. Men need to stop acting like dicks and women need to be empowered to say no right in the moment.

This is what bothers me about this whole movement. His accuser seems more vindictive than anything. By these definitions, I could be accused of sexual misconduct by at least half a dozen women. Making a unwanted advance on a girl is not misconduct. What you do after she lets you know it's unwanted is what important. If I misread a situation and go in for a kiss, and the girl pulls her head away, does that make me a sexual predator in any capacity? I I start sliding my hand up a girls leg after 3 hours of flirting and she pushes my hand away, am I making an attempt to rape her? I don't think so, but based on a lot of these accusations, it sounds like many might. Now, had she pulled away and I tried again and again, or verbally badgered her about it, maybe you could start putting a case together.

I had a fuck buddy years ago at work and we basically used each other to take out our sexually frustrations (I liked it). After about 3 months of nastiness everywhere we went, she started not liking herself for it. She said she wanted to stop and we did. I never brought it up again. I started dating my current GF about 4.5 years ago, and about 6 months into the relationship she starts snap chatting me and text messaging me that we should hang out again. She got pissed when I said that wasn't going to happen (for obvious reasons) and she immediately went on the defensive. She started talking about how the stuff we did together wasn't her, and that I manipulated her and used my 'powers' to get her to think and behave in ways she otherwise never would have. Now if I was a celebrity, I feel like she could go to the press and put a nail in my coffin, especially if she could somehow bring up the texts. Despite the fact that she said things like "I want you to fuck my throat till it bleeds", I feel like she could still play the victim card and paint me in a terrible light.

That's the kind of shit that needs to stop. I'm not saying that there aren't women who legitimately get taken advantage of and have every right to publicly shame men for their actions, but I feel like this argument/movement is very one sided. I think there are plenty of women who voluntarily put themselves in these positions (like this woman with Aziz) and then regret how they behaved. These kind of accusations undermine the women that have legitimately been abused and sexually assaulted.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 06:42:01 AM by Chino »

Offline lordxizor

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #732 on: January 15, 2018, 06:38:18 AM »
Be the standards being pushed today I think just about every guy could be accused of sexual misconduct. Me just because I was an inept, nervous mess around women.

Offline sylvan

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #733 on: January 15, 2018, 07:05:34 AM »
I read her full account of the evening, and I just continuously found myself saying, "What the fuck? Just leave, or say NO." But instead it's all handies and beejs, and then talking about how she didn't want to do any of it. Then why did she? There was no power dynamic here. She had nothing to lose by saying NO, and that seemingly includes her immediate safety, as he wasn't described as trying to intimidate her physically. Am I missing something here?

Offline lordxizor

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #734 on: January 15, 2018, 07:11:58 AM »
People are ripping him for not being able to pick up on the fact that she was uncomfortable. How is he supposed to do that? I get that there was likely no affirmative consent. But apart from that I see nothing wrong here based on the info available.