Author Topic: Harvey Weinstein  (Read 26222 times)

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Online sylvan

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #175 on: October 27, 2017, 02:43:22 PM »
Interestingly, should Harvey be able to go back and recoup the monies paid out and protected under NDAs if those NDAs were broken?
I would think that has long been decided. Shirley there's precedent about violating NDAs, right? Or were you asking should, like from an ethical standpoint. I'd think he's well beyond that point now.

Well, I know where I stand on this, but I was hoping to start a conversation.  Most NDAs have language that allow for disclosure when there is a crime or as part of a required reporting to government agencies, but not all of the cases I read about fall into that category.

Again, let's look at Rose McGowan's case. She claims Harvey raped her. I'm not sure what the NDA says, or if it specifies some sort of harassment/assault, but not rape, if that changes the legality of the NDA. Let's assume that her NDA is binding and that she is opening herself up to litigation by breaking it, like potentially giving back the $100k, or maybe even additional penalties. She still made the decision that it's better to get this information out rather than protect herself legally. Good for her...

Now look at Corey Feldman. The statute of limitations is up on his alleged abuses, so he hasn't named any names yet because of the legal trouble he would be in (which I'm assuming is not criminal, but civil litigation). What if Feldman decided to make the same decision as McGowan, and put the interest of the greater good ahead of himself? What if he sat in front of a camera and said, "The list of names I'm about to read you is everyone that I know for a FACT, UNEQUIVOCALLY, WITHOUT DOUBT, molested or abused child stars in Hollywood. I know that these things can't be proven and that I am forever changing the lives of those listed, and anyone affiliated with these individuals. Therefore, the only names I will read are ones that I KNOW TO BE TRUE. I've been trying to tell people for 25 years... Listen up fuck faces, cuz shit's about to get real."

Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #176 on: October 27, 2017, 03:43:10 PM »
This is perhaps the only subject I tiptoe around and generally just keep my thoughts to myself (I'm temporarily breaking that rule now), because it's obviously an extremely sensitive issue, sexual assault is among the most serious crimes a person can commit, it's not for me to define it, and it's certainly not my place to say what kind of behaviour should and shouldn't make somebody uncomfortable, and how and when victims of it should speak out.

But with that said, I really can't help thinking certain arms of the media need to be more responsible when they report on these scandals. Take the BBC (a liberal organization which has never forgiven John Major for his friendship with Bush Snr). They have been reveling the last few days in reporting on George H. W. Bush's "sexual assault" (their phrase) of Heather Lind, trying desperately to connect him in the readers' minds with Weinstein's actions. They have absolutely loved this story. And while Heather Lind should of course speak out about how she felt, we're talking here about an addled 89-year-old codger touching her backside and making an off-colour joke. This is "sexual assault"? Ok, if so, then fine, I'm not qualified to argue with the definition, but I can't help thinking of Bill Burr's routine about old people and racism here, about how you can find yourself getting a moral caning just for living too long and being from a different era. Is Harvey Weinstein a scumbag who should be buried underneath the prison? It certainly seems so. But George H.W.Bush?? You're really going to lump him in with Weinstein, BBC, based only on Heather's story*?

Christmas has come early for the media right now. There is nothing they love more than a wide-ranging sex scandal or sex crime (Kelvin Mackenzie, scumbag former editor of The Sun newspaper and Murdoch lackey once said that the worst days in his job were when a missing child was returned safely to her parents unraped and unmurdered), and I can't help thinking they contribute to the trivializing of the crime when they gleefully hurl around labels like 'rape' and 'sexual assault' and 'pedophile' (look up the case of the English soccer player Adam Johnson, currently serving 6 years for basically kissing a 15 year old, and whom the English tabloids never miss a chance to call a "pedophile"). There are a set of questions which, at least where I'm from, are still taboo to ask, and among them is "Was it actually rape, as I used to understand that term?" Rose McGowan is putting together an uprising as I type this, and although the way I've written that sounds dismissive and condescending, I don't mean it to. Good luck to her, she's brave to be doing what she's doing. But I don't want this issue to go only one way. I want to be able to learn from it too, I want to be able to ask questions, and if I were one of the talk show hosts she's scheduled to speak to, one of the questions I'd ask Rose (and Asia Argento, and the others), is "You say he raped you. Can you describe exactly what he did, just so I can understand the terms we're using now?" But I don't feel I can ask that question, and the media sure as shit are steering well clear of it. Yet that ought to be the place we begin, since understanding the language being used is the starting point to beginning the conversation. 


* A couple more women have since come forward about Bush Snr, but it doesn't alter my point. The BBC were running with the Weinstein-like "sexual assault" angle when they only had Heather Lind's account of his touching her backside and telling a "dirty joke".
« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 04:24:53 PM by Dave_Manchester »
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #177 on: October 27, 2017, 03:49:18 PM »
I'm not excusing anything or anyone here.  But to further elaborate on your point, Dave, I heard a commentator this morning make a point that I thought was well taken.  The gist of it is that we are doing a service to pretty much everyone involved in both sets of situations by using the same term, "sexual assault," to describe the entire range of conduct from Weinstein to Bush Sr.  Raping kids and women like Weinstein and his ilk should not be considered conduct of the same quality and character as what Bush Sr. did, and by doing so, we not only eliminate the ability to have constructive dialog, but also end up minimizing conduct at one of the spectrum or the other by lumping it all together.  I dunno.  I'm probably not articulating this very well, but I'm basically agreeing with you, Dave.
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Online El Barto

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #178 on: October 27, 2017, 03:57:41 PM »
Sounds like Bush Sr. is the stereotypical dirty old man. Unfortunately for him that's no longer tolerable. For people of his generation it was written off as harmless. Now there's just no telling what constitutes harm, and if there's indignation to be thrown about then it becomes all the more variable. I'm clearly destined to become a dirty old man, myself, but by the time I get there I'm afraid simply eyeing a girl walking down the street will be considered harmfully objectifying them.

I was unaware there were more allegations, but when I looked this came up. Good description of his ill-behavior.

She's absolutely correct that she shouldn't shrug it off because he's president. Perhaps she should if she figures it to be the harmless behavior of an old man making a silly joke, though.
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Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #179 on: October 27, 2017, 04:05:55 PM »
I was unaware there were more allegations

3 so far, all corroborating his apparent penchant for ass-squeezing and literary jokes ("Do you know what my favourite book is? David Cop-A-Feel!" I won't lie, I laughed):

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41771986
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Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #180 on: October 27, 2017, 04:41:09 PM »
I think it's not so much a changing of definitions but a broader understanding of how it happens.  At least that's been my awakening in the last few years, that a lot more rape or sexual assault happens with someone close to the victim than with the hypothetical stranger in a dark alleyway. 

Offline cramx3

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #181 on: October 27, 2017, 04:48:16 PM »
Dave, good post.  I think you hit on some topics that are hard to discuss because you don't want to come off as insensitive nor do you want to come off as defending people like Harvey.  I was trying to make similar points yesterday while doing the same.  It's really a hard topic to discuss and I agree that the media lumping all these stories together doesn't do the situation justice in terms of understanding what's really going on here.  I do think it's great that people are coming out and #MeToo is opening up woman to speak about their sexual abuses, but that doesn't mean Bush/Harvery/Halperin are all the same story nor should they all be treated the same.  BUT we do need to look into these and understand why and how they have happened and had gotten away with that behavior for so long and we don't get that understanding by lumping everything as Rape and closing discussions because they are tough.

Online El Barto

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #182 on: October 27, 2017, 05:11:38 PM »
I think it's not so much a changing of definitions but a broader understanding of how it happens.  At least that's been my awakening in the last few years, that a lot more rape or sexual assault happens with someone close to the victim than with the hypothetical stranger in a dark alleyway.
While the latter might be true, the definitions are absolutely changing. I've provided several examples, but I just read this in the National Harlot Review and it's another good one.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/27/married-substitute-teacher-26-accused-bathrobe-man-cave-sex-with-her-teen-boy-student.html
While NHR will only say "teenager," he's a 17 year old who got it on with a hot substitute teacher, and understandably went back for more a few days later. In 2017 we're calling this a sexual assault. Presumably on the basis that this particular consensual act was non-consensual and he just didn't know it. Is that what you thought of as sexual assault 15 years ago?
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Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #183 on: October 27, 2017, 09:01:05 PM »

Is that what you thought of as sexual assault 15 years ago?

I didnít think about it to be honest and thatís the point, I didnít have to.  Plus there was a lot of shit I didnt know as a dumb 21 year old :loser:

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #184 on: October 30, 2017, 09:00:05 AM »
Next at bat, Kevin Spacey

Offline Adami

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #185 on: October 30, 2017, 09:13:52 AM »
Next at bat, Kevin Spacey

People are apparently NOT happy with how he handled that. Especially the LGBT community.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #186 on: October 30, 2017, 09:16:25 AM »
Next at bat, Kevin Spacey

People are apparently NOT happy with how he handled that. Especially the LGBT community.

And they shouldn't be.  I just had read one article before making that post here so I may not know all the details, but it comes off as deflection.  Honestly, people should be mad at the media as well for running with the wrong story. 

Offline Adami

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #187 on: October 30, 2017, 09:18:34 AM »
Yea, I read somewhere someone made a good point about it.

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Online Chino

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #188 on: October 30, 2017, 09:45:22 AM »
Next at bat, Kevin Spacey

People are apparently NOT happy with how he handled that. Especially the LGBT community.

And they shouldn't be.  I just had read one article before making that post here so I may not know all the details, but it comes off as deflection.  Honestly, people should be mad at the media as well for running with the wrong story.

This. The headlines are reading "Kevin Spacey Comes Out as Gay" instead of "Kevin Spacey Attempted to Have Sex With Minor"

Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #189 on: October 30, 2017, 09:59:15 AM »
Kevin Spacey should have fully owned up to doing that.  At the very least it would have  been only fair to Anthony Rapp who's had to live with the memory of that experience for years.

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #190 on: October 30, 2017, 10:00:21 AM »
IF his apology is true, and I have no reason to doubt it,* what is Spacey supposed to do? Make something up? What's the good move here? Seems he's supposed to proffer up a sincere apology whether he knows what it's for or not.

*Do we all remember drunken shit we did 30 years go?

Something else I find amusing as hell is that nine times out of ten when you're reading about something like this from a castigating source, along the right side of the page is a never ending stream about what some hot chick wore to the beach or whose what busted out their clothes walking a red carpet somewhere. "Rose McGowan goes after Kevin Spacey."  "Charlotte McKinney suffers wardrobe malfunction!" Bunch of bleeding hypocrites. FOX is particularly bad about this when reporting on their daily harlot.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #191 on: October 30, 2017, 10:09:13 AM »
I mean, if the dude doesn't remember it, then that's fine. As you said, we're all human.

But his apology was mostly focused on coming out as gay, which people are seeing as a huge deflection. Don't apologize "if" you did something. Apologize that you did something. If he doubts he did it, then say that. But don't deny it but then not own it. He can't have it both ways.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #192 on: October 30, 2017, 11:00:04 AM »
And here I thought that was a well-reasoned response. Shows you what I know.

And if every guy had to tweet out an apology for every time he tried to get someone to hook up with him (in whatever form that may have taken) the internet would literally blow up. 

Quote
Rapp is publicly alleging for the first time that in 1986, Spacey befriended Rapp while they both performed on Broadway shows, invited Rapp over to his apartment for a party, and, at the end of the night, picked Rapp up, placed him on his bed, and climbed on top of him, making a sexual advance.

Ok, so sounds worse that I initially interpreted it. Disregard my earlier comment.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #193 on: October 30, 2017, 11:05:40 AM »
I think it's not so much a changing of definitions but a broader understanding of how it happens.  At least that's been my awakening in the last few years, that a lot more rape or sexual assault happens with someone close to the victim than with the hypothetical stranger in a dark alleyway.

Actually, the list of women that I know that have stated they feel they've been raped is shockingly long, and yet, NOT ONE OF THEM was from a stranger, and most are from family members or acquaintances.    That sickens me.

Offline kaos2900

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #194 on: October 30, 2017, 11:21:30 AM »
I guess I don't see the issue with Spacey's comments. People are assuming his mention of being gay was used to deflect but do we know that for sure? Also, what is the point of this guy bringing this up now? Why do it in public? I'm having a hard time with this one. Maybe it's a double standard or maybe I'm choosing to give him the benefit of doubt since he seems to be decent dude.

Now there is a story about Adam Sandler touching some gals knee. I'm sure he'll apologize for hit and was just making a joke.

The media is flooding the airwaves with story after story of this with quotes of social media outrage from xyz celebrity. They better be careful how they handle these stories because eventually people are going to start tuning this out and the real issues and need for change will be missed (See Trump, See Kaepernick, etc).

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #195 on: October 30, 2017, 11:23:39 AM »
And here I thought that was a well-reasoned response. Shows you what I know.

And if every guy had to tweet out an apology for every time he tried to get someone to hook up with him (in whatever form that may have taken) the internet would literally blow up. 

Quote
Rapp is publicly alleging for the first time that in 1986, Spacey befriended Rapp while they both performed on Broadway shows, invited Rapp over to his apartment for a party, and, at the end of the night, picked Rapp up, placed him on his bed, and climbed on top of him, making a sexual advance.

Ok, so sounds worse that I initially interpreted it. Disregard my earlier comment.

I haven't read anything about Spacey yet, but given JUST the above, what about that is "sexual assault"?     We just weathered six years of horribly written sexual fantasy (50 Shades of Grey, 2011) about doing just what Kevin allegedly did to that guy.   This is increasingly seeming like an outcome based standard, and that's a problem for me.   it's also increasingly becoming a THIRD PARTY standard, which - especially when you are talking about the mindset of the participants - is EXCEEDINGLY problematic for me.   

I seriously question ANY crime where the "victim" gets to just later decide how they feel and can then act accordingly.   I was watching "He Said She Said" recently (don't judge me!) and there's a scene where Kevin Bacon and Elizabeth Perkins are talking, and he leans in and just kisses her, uninvited.   She laughs (which turns into a plot point) but technically speaking, that's sexual assault on today's terms.   Given that, basically every date that I've ever been on since high school that ended in a kiss has the potential to be a "sexual assault" claim against me. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #196 on: October 30, 2017, 11:26:53 AM »
I guess I don't see the issue with Spacey's comments. People are assuming his mention of being gay was used to deflect but do we know that for sure? Also, what is the point of this guy bringing this up now? Why do it in public? I'm having a hard time with this one. Maybe it's a double standard or maybe I'm choosing to give him the benefit of doubt since he seems to be decent dude.

Now there is a story about Adam Sandler touching some gals knee. I'm sure he'll apologize for hit and was just making a joke.

The media is flooding the airwaves with story after story of this with quotes of social media outrage from xyz celebrity. They better be careful how they handle these stories because eventually people are going to start tuning this out and the real issues and need for change will be missed (See Trump, See Kaepernick, etc).

Except the media doesn't care; they're on to the next thing (Hillary, Manafort, uranium).   Who should be worried are those unfortunate women that were undeniably, without interpretation raped by scumbags like Weinstein.   Lind is not helping her case, enpowered though she may feel.   

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #197 on: October 30, 2017, 11:29:10 AM »
And here I thought that was a well-reasoned response. Shows you what I know.

And if every guy had to tweet out an apology for every time he tried to get someone to hook up with him (in whatever form that may have taken) the internet would literally blow up. 

Quote
Rapp is publicly alleging for the first time that in 1986, Spacey befriended Rapp while they both performed on Broadway shows, invited Rapp over to his apartment for a party, and, at the end of the night, picked Rapp up, placed him on his bed, and climbed on top of him, making a sexual advance.

Ok, so sounds worse that I initially interpreted it. Disregard my earlier comment.

I haven't read anything about Spacey yet, but given JUST the above, what about that is "sexual assault"?     We just weathered six years of horribly written sexual fantasy (50 Shades of Grey, 2011) about doing just what Kevin allegedly did to that guy.   This is increasingly seeming like an outcome based standard, and that's a problem for me.   it's also increasingly becoming a THIRD PARTY standard, which - especially when you are talking about the mindset of the participants - is EXCEEDINGLY problematic for me.   

I seriously question ANY crime where the "victim" gets to just later decide how they feel and can then act accordingly.   I was watching "He Said She Said" recently (don't judge me!) and there's a scene where Kevin Bacon and Elizabeth Perkins are talking, and he leans in and just kisses her, uninvited.   She laughs (which turns into a plot point) but technically speaking, that's sexual assault on today's terms.   Given that, basically every date that I've ever been on since high school that ended in a kiss has the potential to be a "sexual assault" claim against me.

Agreed Stads, that's I where I struggle with how I feel about a lot of this. Luckily I'm married and don't have to worry about dating. Also, I have two young daughters and if this truly results in positive change for women and it reduces the likely hood of facing something like this then I'm happy.

Honest question, if this guy was hit on by a woman at 14 would he be complaining today?

Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #198 on: October 30, 2017, 11:35:31 AM »
Kevin Spacey didn't commit sexual assault as far as I know.  That's not what Anthony Rapp said either.  He made sexual advances on a minor.    And maybe making it about ourselves and a "fear" of potentially being accused(what?)  is really not the point, just saying. 

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #199 on: October 30, 2017, 11:35:59 AM »
And here I thought that was a well-reasoned response. Shows you what I know.

And if every guy had to tweet out an apology for every time he tried to get someone to hook up with him (in whatever form that may have taken) the internet would literally blow up. 

Quote
Rapp is publicly alleging for the first time that in 1986, Spacey befriended Rapp while they both performed on Broadway shows, invited Rapp over to his apartment for a party, and, at the end of the night, picked Rapp up, placed him on his bed, and climbed on top of him, making a sexual advance.

Ok, so sounds worse that I initially interpreted it. Disregard my earlier comment.

I haven't read anything about Spacey yet, but given JUST the above, what about that is "sexual assault"? 

Spacey was 26 and Rapp was 14 when this happened.  I think that is the part that is raising eyebrows, more so than just a sexual advance.

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #200 on: October 30, 2017, 11:44:25 AM »
Here's an example of something that happened last year  http://variety.com/2016/film/news/devin-faraci-birth-movies-death-sexual-assault-1201885262/

birth.movies.death is website I still read and comment on almost everyday and I had been following Devin Faraci's writing for years.   A woman reminded him that ten years prior he had basically assaulted her in a bar and made fun of her to his friends. Initially he said he didn't remember, he was drunk etc but he owned to up to his actions and faced the consequences.   

edit:  I'm not saying Kevin Spacey should be run out of town and never work again or anything like that. 

Offline bosk1

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #201 on: October 30, 2017, 12:02:35 PM »
I think it's not so much a changing of definitions but a broader understanding of how it happens.  At least that's been my awakening in the last few years, that a lot more rape or sexual assault happens with someone close to the victim than with the hypothetical stranger in a dark alleyway.

Actually, the list of women that I know that have stated they feel they've been raped is shockingly long, and yet, NOT ONE OF THEM was from a stranger, and most are from family members or acquaintances.    That sickens me.

I am happy to say that the list I am aware of from my own list of acquaintances is VERY short, and that only one was NOT from a family member or acquaintance.  Gotta give props for self control, moral living, and not engaging in sex outside of marriage.  That alone drastically reduces the odds of something like that happening.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #202 on: October 30, 2017, 12:14:52 PM »
Kevin Spacey didn't commit sexual assault as far as I know.  That's not what Anthony Rapp said either.  He made sexual advances on a minor.    And maybe making it about ourselves and a "fear" of potentially being accused(what?)  is really not the point, just saying.

If I was really scared of being accused I would have used "terrified", but I didn't.  :) :) :)

No, seriously, I'm not at all making it "about ourselves".  I'm pointing out, in real terms (since I feel like there's at least someone here that can sympathize with what I'm saying) that the standard is not at all conducive to stopping the behavior we are castigating, but rather promoting a witch hunt, which can only backfire.   It's the equivalent of telling kids NOT to listen to that "evil rock music".

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #203 on: October 30, 2017, 12:21:51 PM »
Here's an example of something that happened last year  http://variety.com/2016/film/news/devin-faraci-birth-movies-death-sexual-assault-1201885262/

birth.movies.death is website I still read and comment on almost everyday and I had been following Devin Faraci's writing for years.   A woman reminded him that ten years prior he had basically assaulted her in a bar and made fun of her to his friends. Initially he said he didn't remember, he was drunk etc but he owned to up to his actions and faced the consequences.   

edit:  I'm not saying Kevin Spacey should be run out of town and never work again or anything like that.

Sure that's the article you want to use to make your point?   Your source, not mine, but I was interested to read about Devin's reaction to Trump.  :)  :) :)

More to the point, though, Devin DIDN'T really "own it".  He didn't admit to it, only said that "I believe you" and that he would step down to make himself a better man.    I can only assume that he's done this before, it wasn't a surprise and that he was getting out of the kitchen before the fire got too hot, but - again - I have real problems with ACCUSATIONS being the catalyst for this.  What about "innocent until proven guilty"?   What about the right to face your accuser (which, at this point we only know as "spacecrone")?

We've talked about the rules a lot here - with the tacit understanding that there are no "rules" - but we're using some really bad examples by which to set parameters.   

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #204 on: October 30, 2017, 07:12:15 PM »
It won't surprise me at all if this is true and the stories about Spacey being a piece of shit are true, but it's amazing how many just automatically believe any allegation nowadays. 

This truly has become a world of "guilty until proven innocent" world when it comes to the court of public opinion.

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #205 on: October 30, 2017, 07:35:28 PM »
I've never heard any bad stories about Spacey, but I am not a frequent reader the Hollywood rags. Not having been there, picking someone up, putting them on a bed, and climbing on top of them can run a pretty broad spectrum between drunken playfulness to aggressive assault.
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Offline lordxizor

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #206 on: October 31, 2017, 06:09:54 AM »
While sexual assault is a horrible crime, I have a hard time with people coming out with these stories years or decades after they happen and telling the media about it instead of the proper authorities. I get we're in a cycle of empowering people to tell their stories, but it just seems wrong to me to do it in this way. Though if the statute of limitations is up on the crime, I guess there's no point in going to the police about it. It just doesn't seem right to me to throw these people to the whims of public damnation instead of going through proper channels where there is an investigation and all parties get to tell their stories. That being said, I tend to give the victims the benefit of the doubt when they tell their stories.

Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #207 on: October 31, 2017, 07:33:19 AM »
While sexual assault is a horrible crime, I have a hard time with people coming out with these stories years or decades after they happen and telling the media about it instead of the proper authorities.

More annoying to me are the usual rabble of d-list celebs now coming out of the woodwork to claim they "always knew" about this stuff. Last night Rosie O'Donnell (never more than 5 yards away from a righteous cause) got into a lengthy Twitter exchange about Kevin Spacey. Long story short, she posted on his account "Fuck you Kevin, we always knew about you". Several people then quite reasonably asked her why this "we" she speaks of never did anything about it at the time, when it would have made a difference to the people being abused. Her response? She was "afraid" to speak out because the "white men" (she specified the skin colour for some reason) who were doing it were so powerful.

Let that sink in a moment. Rosie O'Donnell (as only one example, there are many others coming out now) was "afraid" to speak out about the likes of Harvey Weinstein and Kevin Spacey because of their "power", yet she has no issue hurling any and every insult and accusation, no matter how baseless, at the most powerful man in America, the President. She and others have no "fear" when it comes to speaking out against whatever opportunistic cause they've decided to care about that day (the NRA, Vladimir Putin, the fur and meat trade, Wall Street, globalisation, you name it), regardless of whether they actually have the first clue what they're talking about, but on the issue of rape and child molestation (which they claim to "know" about) they are "afraid" to speak out? Ashley Judd is another one. She says she didn't speak out earlier on behalf of others because she was "in fear" of Weinstein. This is a woman who a few months back stood on a stage and read a poem about that "Cheeto-dust skin", daughter-lusting, racist, sexist, woman-abusing, homophobic "pig" of a President, Donald Trump. No "fear" of the "white men in power" then?

I'm not diminishing the effect of being abused and how it can force a person into silence. That is a separate issue. The issue here for me is that you can't claim it was the "power" of the man which made you keep your silence while also throwing around accusations against world leaders. That's not bravery, that's cowardice and hypocrisy. Rosie O'Donnell is the first to ignorantly whine about Russia's "LGBT rights abuses", yet she keeps quiet about child molestation going on under her nose? Go fuck yourself, Rosie, you fear only for your career and nothing else. If you "knew all along", why didn't you do something about it when it would have mattered? You and your buddies were happy to use your platform to push your own various interests and beliefs and agendas when it suited you, but not when it came to standing up for molested children and raped women? 

On the one hand I don't care about any of this, Hollywood will hopefully die away soon and that whole cesspit of a town can fade away into oblivion. But on the other hand, I'm happy to see these "I was afraid to defend them" hypocrites being called out, even if it is only on their social media pages. This won't be forgotten. The next time one of them stands on a stage and loudly proclaims "we need to resist the President!" (as is their right by the way, I'm not saying they shouldn't do that), I hope someone will say "It's a shame you weren't so vocal in resisting the rape and child abuse of your colleagues which you claim you knew about".
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 09:00:13 AM by Dave_Manchester »
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #208 on: October 31, 2017, 08:17:24 AM »
I've never heard any bad stories about Spacey, but I am not a frequent reader the Hollywood rags. Not having been there, picking someone up, putting them on a bed, and climbing on top of them can run a pretty broad spectrum between drunken playfulness to aggressive assault.

Yeah, me too.  He's been, heretofore, a pretty stand up guy, and frankly, the more I read about this the more I think Kevin is getting a raw deal.   I'm aware of the law - statutory rape, etc. - but I'm hard pressed to see the ILLEGALITY of what Kevin did.  And regardless, if we're talking about "legality" and "the law", let's let Kevin exercise his Constitutional rights to have a jury of his peers and to face his accuser.   As for him coming out, I thought the LGBT community was the community of tolerance.  I would think that how I come out is the same as how I conduct myself in the privacy of my bedroom, i.e. MY OWN BUSINESS.   

This just stinks.  And as I said to my wife (an abuse survivor), this kind of "accusation" has a detrimental impact for the women that were well and truly and provably raped by pieces of shit like Weinstein. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #209 on: October 31, 2017, 08:21:48 AM »
Let that sink in a moment. Rosie O'Donnell (as only one example, there are many others coming out now) was "afraid" to speak out about the likes of Harvey Weinstein and Kevin Spacey because of their "power", yet she has no issue hurling any and every insult and accusation, no matter how baseless, at the most powerful man in America, the President. She and others have no "fear" when it comes to speaking out against whatever opportunistic cause they've decided to care about that day (the NRA, Vladimir Putin, the fur and meat trade, Wall Street, globalism, you name it), regardless of whether they actually have the first clue what they're talking about, but on the issue of rape and child molestation (which they claim to "know" about) they are "afraid" to speak out? Ashley Judd is another one. She says she didn't speak out earlier on behalf of others because she was "in fear" of Weinstein. This is a woman who a few months back stood on a stage and read a poem about that "Cheeto-dust skin", daughter-lusting, racist, sexist, woman-abusing, homophobic "pig" of a President, Donald Trump. No "fear" of the "white men in power" then?

I'm not diminishing the effect of being abused and how it can force a person into silence. That is a separate issue. The issue here for me is that you can't claim it was the "power" of the man which made you keep your silence while also throwing around accusations against world leaders. That's not bravery, that's cowardice and hypocrisy. Rosie O'Donnell is the first to ignorantly whine about Russia's "LGBT rights abuses", yet she keeps quiet about child molestation going on under her nose? Go fuck yourself, Rosie, you fear only for your career and nothing else. If you "knew all along", why didn't you do something about it when it would have mattered? You and your buddies were happy to use your platform to push your own various interests and beliefs and agendas when it suited you, but not when it came to standing up for molested children and raped women? 

On the one hand I don't care about any of this, Hollywood will hopefully die away soon and that whole cesspit of a town can fade away into oblivion. But on the other hand, I'm happy to see these "I was afraid to defend them" hypocrites being called out, even if it is only on their social media pages. This won't be forgotten. The next time one of them stands on a stage and loudly proclaims "we need to resist the President!" (as is their right by the way, I'm not saying they shouldn't do that), I hope someone will say "It's a shame you weren't so vocal in resisting the rape and child abuse of your colleagues which you claim you knew about".

If we were drunk at a party, I'd throw you on the bed...  I'm kidding.    Well said.   There's a very fine line between "empowering" and emboldening the "mob mentality" and I think we're starting to veer into that territory.   I'm also asking explicitly for permission to take that idea - not your words, but the idea.   I think it's a fair question to ask of some of these people (on both sides of the argument).  You can't make the argument that is convenient, you have to make the argument that is RIGHT, and regardless of the emotion of that argument, it has to sustain itself in the face of inquiry.   Increasingly, some of this is not withstanding the review, and as such I feel badly for those who were truly and provably abused by these pieces of shit.