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How would you rate psycotic Symphony on a scale from 1 to 10?

10 (highest)
8 (3.4%)
9
13 (5.6%)
8
23 (9.9%)
7
43 (18.5%)
6
33 (14.2%)
5
32 (13.8%)
4
24 (10.3%)
3
14 (6%)
2
7 (3%)
1 (lowest)
7 (3%)
0. Their online behaviour ruined it (won't listen)
28 (12.1%)

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Author Topic: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)  (Read 464228 times)

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Offline cramx3

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Re: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)
« Reply #2310 on: November 18, 2017, 02:57:05 PM »
I had yet to hear Opus Maximus until this morning (YT is the only place I have checked out their songs and that song wasn't uploaded there until earlier this week), but now having heard it, what the hell?  What a complete and utter mess that song is. Songs like that are what give prog a bad name.  It is a total wankfest, bouncing from idea to idea with no cohesion or flow whatsoever.  If they wrote the whole album in 10 days, it sounds like they threw that one together in less than an hour.  Holy smokes, can I please have those 9 minutes back?

I've heard that song like 4-5 times at least and I honestly cannot remember a single moment outside of the fact that there was a cool drum/bass thing at one point, but i have no idea what it sounds like, just that I enjoyed it when I heard it.

I think I'm one of the few who enjoys this song but then again I also think JSSs vocals may be my least favorite part of the album.

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Re: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)
« Reply #2311 on: November 18, 2017, 03:08:18 PM »
James should be pretty much the captian of the ship for calling the shots on the vocals. He did an outstanding job on TA!
It doesn't mean that the songwriters and band members can't offer suggestions..

Suggestions, yes.  But if you're the singer, and the guitarist and drummer for some reason are there in the booth with you telling you how to sing certain parts, that's gotta suck.

It depends who wrote it. I mean, imagine you wrote a movie script, and noticing an actor is just NOT saying a line how you wrote it, do you just say "well, they're the actor so they get to decide?" or do you tell them how you wrote it?
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Offline Anguyen92

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Re: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)
« Reply #2312 on: November 18, 2017, 03:38:58 PM »
James should be pretty much the captian of the ship for calling the shots on the vocals. He did an outstanding job on TA!
It doesn't mean that the songwriters and band members can't offer suggestions..

Suggestions, yes.  But if you're the singer, and the guitarist and drummer for some reason are there in the booth with you telling you how to sing certain parts, that's gotta suck.

It depends who wrote it. I mean, imagine you wrote a movie script, and noticing an actor is just NOT saying a line how you wrote it, do you just say "well, they're the actor so they get to decide?" or do you tell them how you wrote it?

I think this is the point where you going to have to trust the actor's judgment since they probably have the best idea of how to express the right emotion that fits the scene.  I mean if an actor/vocalist recites a line/lyric, word for word, people could interpret that kind of approach thinking that the actor/vocalist lacks passion.

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Re: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)
« Reply #2313 on: November 18, 2017, 03:42:52 PM »
Yes, but 100% of the time? For instance I just finished recording vocals to my album with a cool singer. Most everything he got fine. I sent him the demos of me doing and he got it. But a few parts he did the wrong accents (like emphasizing the wrong word in a sentence or something) and I had to correct him. I don't see an issue with that.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)
« Reply #2314 on: November 18, 2017, 04:16:31 PM »
Arjen knows how to work with and push the Singers he gets.

MP felt like songs needed tough guy vocals so he did them instead.

I bet JSS would be a lot better if he had free reign. But Derek wanted vocals a certain way and he got them his way, I'm sure JSS said "it feels better this way" yet DS shot him down hence the arguments.
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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)
« Reply #2315 on: November 18, 2017, 04:44:13 PM »
JSS tweeted before that he liked Alive because he was already part of the writing. Based on the credits, it appears that Alive and Divine Addiction are the last two songs to be written. Incidentally, those songs had the best vocals in the album.

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)
« Reply #2316 on: November 18, 2017, 04:56:30 PM »
I mean, imagine you wrote a movie script, and noticing an actor is just NOT saying a line how you wrote it, do you just say "well, they're the actor so they get to decide?" or do you tell them how you wrote it?

If you wrote a film script, you are not on the set directing the actors on how to deliver their lines. Chances are you never even met with the actors at any point in the process. You probably wrote the lines before the movie was even cast. Working as a band writing an album is a different process.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)
« Reply #2317 on: November 18, 2017, 06:15:47 PM »
Isn't this just what managers do in companies? That is, you have to strike the fine balance between enough guidance to get the best end result, but not micromanaging in order not to stifle people's creativity.
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Re: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)
« Reply #2318 on: November 18, 2017, 06:19:29 PM »
I mean, imagine you wrote a movie script, and noticing an actor is just NOT saying a line how you wrote it, do you just say "well, they're the actor so they get to decide?" or do you tell them how you wrote it?

If you wrote a film script, you are not on the set directing the actors on how to deliver their lines. Chances are you never even met with the actors at any point in the process. You probably wrote the lines before the movie was even cast. Working as a band writing an album is a different process.

Sometimes. Sometimes the writers are there, especially if they're also directing. But that totally misses my point either way.
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Offline bill1971

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Re: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)
« Reply #2319 on: November 18, 2017, 06:50:01 PM »
I had yet to hear Opus Maximus until this morning (YT is the only place I have checked out their songs and that song wasn't uploaded there until earlier this week), but now having heard it, what the hell?  What a complete and utter mess that song is. Songs like that are what give prog a bad name.  It is a total wankfest, bouncing from idea to idea with no cohesion or flow whatsoever.  If they wrote the whole album in 10 days, it sounds like they threw that one together in less than an hour.  Holy smokes, can I please have those 9 minutes back?

Same hear. I only heard the songs on YT as well. Sometimes I like to hear songs before buying them. Terrible song.

Offline gzarruk

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Re: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)
« Reply #2320 on: November 18, 2017, 08:56:37 PM »
I had yet to hear Opus Maximus until this morning (YT is the only place I have checked out their songs and that song wasn't uploaded there until earlier this week), but now having heard it, what the hell?  What a complete and utter mess that song is. Songs like that are what give prog a bad name.  It is a total wankfest, bouncing from idea to idea with no cohesion or flow whatsoever.  If they wrote the whole album in 10 days, it sounds like they threw that one together in less than an hour.  Holy smokes, can I please have those 9 minutes back?

Same hear. I only heard the songs on YT as well. Sometimes I like to hear songs before buying them. Terrible song.

Yeah, what Kev said. This reminds me of something very interesting Gavin Harrison said here: https://youtu.be/woI6t8dCQcQ?t=47m20s (47:20 - 48:10). He talks about writing songs from great ideas vs getting a bunch of liks and pasting them together and call it a song. Opus Maximus, and most of the SOA album, suffers a lot from the latter.
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline portnoy311

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Re: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)
« Reply #2321 on: November 18, 2017, 10:05:28 PM »
I love Gavin. I think his approach to music and playing are perfect foils for a lot of the critiques I have of MP as a drummer and his projects.

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Re: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)
« Reply #2322 on: November 19, 2017, 03:02:56 AM »
The melodic intro and outro of Opus Maximus is not that bad, actually it's quite good. It's everything else in between that it's kinda forgettable.
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Offline ytserush

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Re: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)
« Reply #2323 on: November 19, 2017, 11:11:19 AM »
Am I the only one here who is bothered by this Slam Bam Thank You Mam approach to music? People always rag on music quality, vinyl vs CD, but I cringe when I see bands apparently just not caring enough about their output to spend more than a week on it. Feels like they're working a union job, not clocking a second longer than their contract says.

I don't like it either, but in a world of declining revenue it's more cost effective to do it that way. 

Not a fan of musicians working on projects without ever spending a second in the same room together, but that's just me.  Seems to be where we are at.


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Re: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)
« Reply #2324 on: November 19, 2017, 11:43:43 AM »
It's a tough call.  The person who wrote the song has a vision for how they want it to sound, how they want the melodies and instrumentals to work, everything.  Or at least it's not uncommon.  To that end, they'll work with the others and try to get the song to sound like how they want it.  You can tell the bassist that you had a specific thing in mind, or the drummer, or the keyboard player, but not the vocalist?  Is the vocalist somehow off limits and gets to do things however he wants?

That said, I can see how having both JP and MP there telling JLB what to do would get pretty oppressive.

Um, I'm pretty sure that if Bruce and Clarence/Roy/Max/Garry/Stevie/Nils have a disagreement on whether a sax/keys/drum/bass/guitar part works or not, only one voice counts.   Same with Bon Jovi.  Same with AC/DC.   Same with Iron Maiden.   

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Offline Orbert

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Re: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)
« Reply #2325 on: November 19, 2017, 06:31:27 PM »
Only one voice counts?  Whose?

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Re: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)
« Reply #2326 on: November 19, 2017, 10:32:10 PM »
I'm not even disagreeing with you, Stadler, I honestly don't know what you're saying.  Who are Bruce, Clarence, Roy... wait, the E-Street band?  That's Bruce's band.  What would that have to do with a band like Dream Theater, a supposed collective?  Bon Jovi is obviously Jon Bon Jovi's band, duh.  But I don't know enough about AC/DC or Iron Maiden to know who the obvious one voice would be.

And I still don't see how that applies to Dream Theater.  JLB is recording vocals.  Both JP and MP are literally breathing on him, telling him what to sing and how to sing it.  Whose is the one voice that counts?

Offline bosk1

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Re: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)
« Reply #2327 on: November 20, 2017, 09:24:53 AM »
I'm not even disagreeing with you, Stadler, I honestly don't know what you're saying.  Who are Bruce, Clarence, Roy... wait, the E-Street band?  That's Bruce's band.  What would that have to do with a band like Dream Theater, a supposed collective?  Bon Jovi is obviously Jon Bon Jovi's band, duh.  But I don't know enough about AC/DC or Iron Maiden to know who the obvious one voice would be.

And I still don't see how that applies to Dream Theater.  JLB is recording vocals.  Both JP and MP are literally breathing on him, telling him what to sing and how to sing it.  Whose is the one voice that counts?
Well, from everything I've heard, for AC/DC, Angus ultimately calls the shots, and the music gets put together the way he ultimately wants it.  In Maiden, the same goes with Steve Harris.  When you have guys that have worked together that long, there is a lot of trust built up over the years that leads to a lot of freedom being given.  So it may not look/feel like one person has the final say to someone on the outside.  But that's still the reality when you get right down to it.  I think Rumborak's analogy is pretty spot on:

Isn't this just what managers do in companies? That is, you have to strike the fine balance between enough guidance to get the best end result, but not micromanaging in order not to stifle people's creativity.

With DT, I think your view of them as a "collective" is inaccurate.  I mean, it isn't a dictatorship.  But when it comes to writing the music and the creative vision, not all voices are equal in the band, and it has been that way since day 1.  Remember that when they started, the idea was that the instrumentalists (primarily JP and MP) called the creative shots.  Charlie was told in no uncertain terms that, basically, his job was to come in and sing what he was told to sing, and stay out of the way to let the instrumentalists shine.  Same thing with James when he was brought in.  The tricky thing is, it's also real life, and expectations and how they are applied in real life change.  They don't stay exactly the same, and are dynamic and fluid.  So remember that by the time they got to the recording of SFAM, James basically decided that, since he didn't really have much input into the music, and would just come in and sing the parts assigned to him once the music was done, he would rather be outside playing basketball than be present in the studio when the others were writing/recording.  And some or all of the others decided they didn't really like that.  Hence, they told him they wanted him more engaged when it came to the SDOIT sessions.  But still, going forward even from that point, John and Mike still drove the overall direction of the songs, including providing oversight and direction on a lot of James' vocals.  It has basically ALWAYS been that way in DT, even if the amount of oversight and direction has ebbed and flowed from time to time.

Mike was part of that in DT.  And that is the environment when Derek was in DT.  So it is natural for them to have a similar model in SoA.  And as far as we know, it is working for them, so it really isn't for us on the outside to say that it is somehow wrong. 
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)
« Reply #2328 on: November 20, 2017, 11:48:03 AM »
So I ask again: whose is the one voice that counts?  I keep hearing "MP and JP".  That's two.

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Re: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)
« Reply #2329 on: November 20, 2017, 12:06:30 PM »
So I ask again: whose is the one voice that counts?  I keep hearing "MP and JP".  That's two.

I’m sure I’ve heard them say it was decided by who fought the hardest for a particular idea.

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Re: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)
« Reply #2330 on: November 20, 2017, 12:50:51 PM »
Apparently I'm not being clear.

I agree that the singer is subject to "suggestions" as to how to perform any particular part, the same as any of the instrumentalists.  I even asked the rhetorical question about whether or not the singer was somehow exempt from that.

I then said that it would still suck to have the fucking drummer and guitarist telling you how to do things.  Because it would.  I'm thinking in particular of that one picture with James at the mike, recording his parts, and both MP and JP are there telling him what to do.  Let's face it, no one likes being told what to do, but if it's your job to do what you're told, okay.  But two people, both there, both telling you what to do?

Then Stadler started talking about Bruce and Roy and a bunch of other people and how there's only one voice that counts.

So the question is:  Whose is the one voice that counts?  There does not appear to be an answer for that, even though everyone seems to say that there's definitely one.

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Re: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)
« Reply #2331 on: November 20, 2017, 01:23:50 PM »
Ah, got it, should have read higher. Count me in the “let the singer do his thing” camp. Unless he’s fucking up your song.  :facepalm:

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Re: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)
« Reply #2332 on: November 20, 2017, 01:26:34 PM »
Count me in the “let the singer do his thing” camp. Unless he’s fucking up your song.  :facepalm:

That's a huge gray area though. Someone might equate "He isn't doing it exactly like I asked!!!" as "fucking up their song."
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Re: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)
« Reply #2333 on: November 20, 2017, 02:00:46 PM »
Count me in the “let the singer do his thing” camp. Unless he’s fucking up your song.  :facepalm:

That's a huge gray area though. Someone might equate "He isn't doing it exactly like I asked!!!" as "fucking up their song."

True, it would hugely depend on the personality of the writer.

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Re: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)
« Reply #2334 on: November 20, 2017, 02:31:58 PM »
I'm not even disagreeing with you, Stadler, I honestly don't know what you're saying.  Who are Bruce, Clarence, Roy... wait, the E-Street band?  That's Bruce's band.  What would that have to do with a band like Dream Theater, a supposed collective?  Bon Jovi is obviously Jon Bon Jovi's band, duh.  But I don't know enough about AC/DC or Iron Maiden to know who the obvious one voice would be.

And I still don't see how that applies to Dream Theater.  JLB is recording vocals.  Both JP and MP are literally breathing on him, telling him what to sing and how to sing it.  Whose is the one voice that counts?

AC/DC:   If Malcolm says (said) "Jump!" I'm pretty sure that Cliff, Brian and [whoever is in the drum chair; this is why Phil left the first time] says "How high?"
Maiden:  Harris
Skid Row:   Bach is not in the band because Rachel Bolan and Dave Sabo run the show.   

I think it gets a little squirrelly in a collective, but you can only have five opinions going so far, IF one decides to push back on the prevailing winds.   Many bands just have members - Charlie Watts - that let the others get on with it.   

There's a great bootleg of the recording of Going For The One where Anderson is literally telling Rick Wakeman what to play (on the swirling ending, with the circular, ascending keyboard parts).   

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Re: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)
« Reply #2335 on: November 20, 2017, 02:51:22 PM »
So the question is:  Whose is the one voice that counts? 

Bosk.

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would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)
« Reply #2336 on: November 20, 2017, 07:47:40 PM »
Apparently I'm not being clear.

I agree that the singer is subject to "suggestions" as to how to perform any particular part, the same as any of the instrumentalists.  I even asked the rhetorical question about whether or not the singer was somehow exempt from that.

I then said that it would still suck to have the fucking drummer and guitarist telling you how to do things.  Because it would.  I'm thinking in particular of that one picture with James at the mike, recording his parts, and both MP and JP are there telling him what to do.  Let's face it, no one likes being told what to do, but if it's your job to do what you're told, okay.  But two people, both there, both telling you what to do?

Then Stadler started talking about Bruce and Roy and a bunch of other people and how there's only one voice that counts.

So the question is:  Whose is the one voice that counts?  There does not appear to be an answer for that, even though everyone seems to say that there's definitely one.

It doesn't necessarily have to be "one."  That isn't the point.  In DT now, I think it boils down to JP.   But since JP and MP co-produced when MP was still in the band, I think they both had a lot of say.  It seems like Mike was allowed a lot of input into the vocals.  But then again, over the course of SEVERAL album's worth of "making of" vidoes, we get maybe, what, 10 minutes of total time to judge by?  So it's hard to say for sure.  But that's how it goes. 

And I think you're wrong that it "sucks" to have someone tell you how to do your job.  I could be wrong, but I just don't think most people in established bands that write original music look at it that way.
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Re: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)
« Reply #2337 on: November 20, 2017, 10:28:36 PM »
It doesn't necessarily have to be "one."  That isn't the point. 

Yes, it is.  I was speaking in general terms, about trying to do your job while two guys are telling you what to do, and someone said that there's only one voice that counts.  So I asked who that one person would be.  I got lots of answers, but no one actually answered the question I asked.  So I restated it, and still no one answered it.  Look, I wouldn't even give a shit, but I made what I thought was a general statement, and someone started talking about Dave and Brian and Marty or whoever, and how there's only one voice that counts.  I would just like to know who that one person is.  That is the point I was making.

And I think you're wrong that it "sucks" to have someone tell you how to do your job.  I could be wrong, but I just don't think most people in established bands that write original music look at it that way.

I never said that, either.  I said it would suck to be trying to do your job while two people are telling you how to do it.  Because it does.


This has gone on far too long, and I obviously am the one lacking in communication skills here, since no one seems to understand what I'm saying, no matter how many different ways I phrase it, so I'm out.

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Re: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)
« Reply #2338 on: November 20, 2017, 10:36:33 PM »
I think I see the situation here.

Stadler: Only one voice matters.

Orbert: Whose is the one voice that matters?

Other people not Stadler: It's not one voice that matters.
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Re: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)
« Reply #2339 on: November 20, 2017, 10:42:36 PM »
I think I get Orbert's point. Having one guy who's a clear boss (e.g. Steve Harris or Frank Zappa) is one thing because those are the conditions that are expected in those bands. I imagine having two guys telling you what to do could possibly cause more pressure or create the feeling of being ganged up on. JP and MP may have been the one collective "voice" but it's still two guys telling one person what to do.
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Re: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)
« Reply #2340 on: November 20, 2017, 10:56:19 PM »
Reminded me of this for some reason.


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Re: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)
« Reply #2341 on: November 20, 2017, 11:04:16 PM »
Well if I were a singer and had to sing that, like what somebody tells me to - I would not be happy. I'm a bassist and of course I agree with any criticism thrown in me, but when somebody tells me what to play, and how to play I get angry. And of course, my performance is worse then. But, I think it all depends from people with You are working to... If somebody tells You what to do, for example like that - "Play, or sing LIKE THAT AND NO ANY OTHER WAY" - it's bad. But when somebody is trying to get to You in that way - "You know, maybe You should try something like that, or that. What You're playing is good, but maybe something else would be better". Not saying what to do in 100% to somebody but to left some space for musicians mind to figure it out themselves, is better.

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Re: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)
« Reply #2342 on: November 21, 2017, 04:29:11 AM »
I finally got around to listening to this album today.  I had it in the car so got a pretty good earful.  I might have been one of the blandest, uninspiring, generic prog metal releases I've heard in a long time.  I have no desire to listen to it again. 

The songs lack good songwriting and all the riffs on offer are pedestrian and unimaginative.  JSS does great to be honest, but the melodies just don't do him any favours.  I thought Alive was the most natural and ebtertaining piece that didn't feel forced liked all the others. 

The structures are disjointed and a lot of the album feels like just pieces put together and lacks flow.  Ron is the shining light here and if anything makes me realise how good of a guitarist he is, and probably should check some of his work out. 

MP's backsup though make me cringe to be honest.  And I don't know why all the heavy instrumental sections he's trying to make sound like This Dying Soul.  To me anyway.  Disappointing and MP and Derek really should stop shooting their mouths off, because they certainly don't back it up here.
Everyone else, except Wolfking is wrong.

Offline mikeyd23

  • Posts: 5479
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Re: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)
« Reply #2343 on: November 21, 2017, 08:09:28 AM »
I finally got around to listening to this album today.  I had it in the car so got a pretty good earful.  I might have been one of the blandest, uninspiring, generic prog metal releases I've heard in a long time.  I have no desire to listen to it again. 

The songs lack good songwriting and all the riffs on offer are pedestrian and unimaginative.  JSS does great to be honest, but the melodies just don't do him any favours.  I thought Alive was the most natural and ebtertaining piece that didn't feel forced liked all the others. 

The structures are disjointed and a lot of the album feels like just pieces put together and lacks flow.  Ron is the shining light here and if anything makes me realise how good of a guitarist he is, and probably should check some of his work out. 

MP's backsup though make me cringe to be honest.  And I don't know why all the heavy instrumental sections he's trying to make sound like This Dying Soul.  To me anyway.  Disappointing and MP and Derek really should stop shooting their mouths off, because they certainly don't back it up here.

I agree with pretty much all that wolf.

Offline bill1971

  • Posts: 743
Re: Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)
« Reply #2344 on: November 21, 2017, 08:42:27 AM »
I finally got around to listening to this album today.  I had it in the car so got a pretty good earful.  I might have been one of the blandest, uninspiring, generic prog metal releases I've heard in a long time.  I have no desire to listen to it again. 

The songs lack good songwriting and all the riffs on offer are pedestrian and unimaginative.  JSS does great to be honest, but the melodies just don't do him any favours.  I thought Alive was the most natural and ebtertaining piece that didn't feel forced liked all the others. 

The structures are disjointed and a lot of the album feels like just pieces put together and lacks flow.  Ron is the shining light here and if anything makes me realise how good of a guitarist he is, and probably should check some of his work out. 

MP's backsup though make me cringe to be honest.  And I don't know why all the heavy instrumental sections he's trying to make sound like This Dying Soul.  To me anyway.  Disappointing and MP and Derek really should stop shooting their mouths off, because they certainly don't back it up here.

I agree with pretty much all that wolf.

So do I.