Author Topic: I feel like I made a pretty good argument about the Confederate flag.  (Read 867 times)

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Offline MetalJunkie

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A former co-worker of mine posted the following image:

 

I responded with the Snopes article that debunked these claims. http://www.snopes.com/confederate-flag-colors-religious/
Then things happened.



Thoughts?
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: I feel like I made a pretty good argument about the Confederate flag.
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2017, 05:36:16 AM »
While I agree that the Confederate flag is a symbol of a dark time in our country, I will play devil's advocate and take issue with this point:

"Considering the feelings of our neighbors."

-While that sounds all warm and fuzzy, it strikes me too much as another case of "let's get rid of/denounce anything that anyone is offended by.  And nowadays, it seems like everyone is offended by something, so by that rationale, we might as well get rid of everything, since feelings are all that matter (generally speaking).  Considering feelings is one thing; basing decisions off feelings is another.

I am guessing that for a lot of people in the south, the confederate flag, regardless of its original meaning, is all about southern pride and not really about racism at all (although for some, I am not sure that is not the case).  Having pride in where you are from or where you have been is not unusual. Heck, look at how over the top people get with school pride when it comes to where they went to college?! :lol :lol

And please note that I am by no means a fan of the Confederate flag.  I am just offering the opinion that many do not see it the same way that others do.

Offline eric42434224

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Re: I feel like I made a pretty good argument about the Confederate flag.
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2017, 07:29:52 AM »
Interesting how, if it really is all about pride in where you are from, one rarely sees people hanging their actual state flag in the back window of their pickup. 

I am fully in support of a persons right to fly any flag they wish on their own property.  On public state property is where I have an issue. 
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Offline Chino

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Re: I feel like I made a pretty good argument about the Confederate flag.
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2017, 07:33:14 AM »
Interesting how, if it really is all about pride in where you are from, one rarely sees people hanging their actual state flag in the back window of their pickup.

My favorite is when people in CT fly it seeing as we fought the south, or even better is when people in a state like Arizona fly it, a state that wasn't formed until almost 50 years after the civil war ended.

Offline eric42434224

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Re: I feel like I made a pretty good argument about the Confederate flag.
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2017, 07:58:24 AM »
Interesting how, if it really is all about pride in where you are from, one rarely sees people hanging their actual state flag in the back window of their pickup.

My favorite is when people in CT fly it seeing as we fought the south, or even better is when people in a state like Arizona fly it, a state that wasn't formed until almost 50 years after the civil war ended.

I suppose it is no different that people with Salt Life stickers on their cars, that do nothing to resemble that lifestyle.  Just trying to be cool
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Offline Stadler

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Re: I feel like I made a pretty good argument about the Confederate flag.
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2017, 10:36:03 AM »
While I agree that the Confederate flag is a symbol of a dark time in our country, I will play devil's advocate and take issue with this point:

"Considering the feelings of our neighbors."

-While that sounds all warm and fuzzy, it strikes me too much as another case of "let's get rid of/denounce anything that anyone is offended by.  And nowadays, it seems like everyone is offended by something, so by that rationale, we might as well get rid of everything, since feelings are all that matter (generally speaking).  Considering feelings is one thing; basing decisions off feelings is another.

I am guessing that for a lot of people in the south, the confederate flag, regardless of its original meaning, is all about southern pride and not really about racism at all (although for some, I am not sure that is not the case).  Having pride in where you are from or where you have been is not unusual. Heck, look at how over the top people get with school pride when it comes to where they went to college?! :lol :lol

And please note that I am by no means a fan of the Confederate flag.  I am just offering the opinion that many do not see it the same way that others do.

I've not seen this before, so I'm going to lay claim to it, but I would say there is a decent enough argument that we actually NEED people to be offended at times.    It's a sign of progress, no?   How can you gauge your progress as a society, as a community, as a species, if no one is uncomfortable about the changes being wrought?   

Take it out of the context of "race" for a second; look at art.   Almost all the transformative (as opposed to iterative, or incremental) changes in art have been met with pushback from the Establishment.  Hell, the Beatles were dismissed at first as a "fad" and a "dangerous aberration" (quotes, but my words).   They are, arguably (and whether you agree is not really material for this discussion; I think we can all concede they are at least in the conversation) the most innovative and transcendent band in the history of rock.    I don't want to suggest that all racists are just afraid of change (though that is part of it, it is too reductionist) but any of the discussions that don't take all of these elements into consideration are destined for failure, in my opinion.

The flag discussion is one such topic.   We don't think twice about wearing gear about a football team.  Hell, there are people here that have band logos tattooed on their flesh (ridiculous, in my opinion).  Why is having a flag that embodies an ethos that odd?  What's different about the "skull and crossbones", or the "rainbow flag" and this?  I'm sure to some it has racist elements, but for example, my daughter has one on her computer because she was born in Georgia.  It is a part of her history, such that it is, and while she is aware of the connotations, she doesn't share those connotations, and has to deal with that.  She isn't getting it tattooed on her arm, but it IS a part of her life.   

Offline Chino

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Re: I feel like I made a pretty good argument about the Confederate flag.
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2017, 10:51:54 AM »
The flag discussion is one such topic.   We don't think twice about wearing gear about a football team.  Hell, there are people here that have band logos tattooed on their flesh (ridiculous, in my opinion).  Why is having a flag that embodies an ethos that odd?  What's different about the "skull and crossbones", or the "rainbow flag" and this? I'm sure to some it has racist elements, but for example, my daughter has one on her computer because she was born in Georgia.  It is a part of her history, such that it is, and while she is aware of the connotations, she doesn't share those connotations, and has to deal with that.  She isn't getting it tattooed on her arm, but it IS a part of her life.   

I get what you're saying with this, and I'm confident that that your daughter isn't a racist at all, but I'm always curious as to why that's the 'part of history' that people want to display. Why don't people put Georgia's flag on their computers, or the symbol of Atlanta University that was founded to educate former slaves, or the Terminus logo symbolizing the railway Georgia built to connect much of the south together? Why don't we fly the British flag anywhere here in New England? Why don't German students put Nazi flag stickers on their cars? It's all 'part of history'. Again, not knocking your daughter, just admitting that I don't understand the desire to put that particular piece of history front and center on anything.

Offline bosk1

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Re: I feel like I made a pretty good argument about the Confederate flag.
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2017, 10:53:56 AM »
Yeah, I tend to agree with that in principle, Stadler (I do disagree with a few of the specific examples, but there's no real reason to debate them). 

MetalJunkie, I think you raised some really good points, and I think you raised them respectfully and articulately.  But I also think Elizabeth's position is important to the discussion as well (even if some of it may be misinformed).  I mean, like Stadler points out, people have a certain ethos attached to symbols, and that is important on a personal level and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand, IMO.

This is just one of those situations that has competing interests.  As someone who is far enough removed from the specific controversy and its context, I can appreciate the fact that I probably shouldn't take too strong a position on one side or the other since I can't really put myself in the shoes of either side.  So that being said, I am content to not weigh in and just stand back and observe however it plays out.  I will just say in the abstract that I sympathize with points on both sides of the argument, some of them being:  The flag is a symbol that is important and has an emotional, historical context to some for reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with racism; Those that may hold that symbol dear for legitimate reasons need to understand that the historical context of that symbol may make it highly offensive to others.  Personally, I think it's kind of a shame that we react to the point of practically revising history in order to avoid offending some segments of our population, and I think it is better to use it as a teaching opportunity for all sides to grow from.  But I get the counterarguments as well and feel compelled to acknowledge their validity.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: I feel like I made a pretty good argument about the Confederate flag.
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2017, 11:09:48 AM »
The flag discussion is one such topic.   We don't think twice about wearing gear about a football team.  Hell, there are people here that have band logos tattooed on their flesh (ridiculous, in my opinion).  Why is having a flag that embodies an ethos that odd?  What's different about the "skull and crossbones", or the "rainbow flag" and this? I'm sure to some it has racist elements, but for example, my daughter has one on her computer because she was born in Georgia.  It is a part of her history, such that it is, and while she is aware of the connotations, she doesn't share those connotations, and has to deal with that.  She isn't getting it tattooed on her arm, but it IS a part of her life.   

I get what you're saying with this, and I'm confident that that your daughter isn't a racist at all, but I'm always curious as to why that's the 'part of history' that people want to display. Why don't people put Georgia's flag on their computers, or the symbol of Atlanta University that was founded to educate former slaves, or the Terminus logo symbolizing the railway Georgia built to connect much of the south together? Why don't we fly the British flag anywhere here in New England? Why don't German students put Nazi flag stickers on their cars? It's all 'part of history'. Again, not knocking your daughter, just admitting that I don't understand the desire to put that particular piece of history front and center on anything.

One, convenience.  When you go to the Big E (a local fair/festival that happens every year mid-September) and go into the booths that have nothing but stickers (all those Calvins pissing on car logos, the stick figure representations of families, etc.) there are 20 confederate flags, and nary a Georgia flag.  Same reason people put those oval "OBX" stickers on their cars instead of the North Carolina flag. 

Two, she has a Union Jack on her wall; something to do with Harry Potter and/or Harry Styles.   I bought it for her for Christmas one year.   She also has a "Fall Out Boy" flag too (can't all be winners. :)).   

Three, I can't speak for the Nazi symbol; it DOES mean "peace" historically.  I HAVE seen Indian women with that henna-like artwork on their hands with symbols that look like "swastikas".  I'm not sure what to say here.   Intellectually, it's not any different, but spiritually, I think it is undeniable that it is different. 

Offline Adami

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Re: I feel like I made a pretty good argument about the Confederate flag.
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2017, 11:13:47 AM »
Just a minor correction, swastikas have historically been more about other things (not really peace, but it's all good) but not the Nazi swastika. That one is a bit different and specific.

The question is still good though. Should German people be allowed to wave the Nazi flag or put up statues of Hitler in their communities without anyone being allowed to protest it or disagree with openly?
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Offline Stadler

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Re: I feel like I made a pretty good argument about the Confederate flag.
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2017, 11:14:55 AM »
Yeah, I tend to agree with that in principle, Stadler (I do disagree with a few of the specific examples, but there's no real reason to debate them). 

MetalJunkie, I think you raised some really good points, and I think you raised them respectfully and articulately.  But I also think Elizabeth's position is important to the discussion as well (even if some of it may be misinformed).  I mean, like Stadler points out, people have a certain ethos attached to symbols, and that is important on a personal level and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand, IMO.

This is just one of those situations that has competing interests.  As someone who is far enough removed from the specific controversy and its context, I can appreciate the fact that I probably shouldn't take too strong a position on one side or the other since I can't really put myself in the shoes of either side.  So that being said, I am content to not weigh in and just stand back and observe however it plays out.  I will just say in the abstract that I sympathize with points on both sides of the argument, some of them being:  The flag is a symbol that is important and has an emotional, historical context to some for reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with racism; Those that may hold that symbol dear for legitimate reasons need to understand that the historical context of that symbol may make it highly offensive to others.  Personally, I think it's kind of a shame that we react to the point of practically revising history in order to avoid offending some segments of our population, and I think it is better to use it as a teaching opportunity for all sides to grow from.  But I get the counterarguments as well and feel compelled to acknowledge their validity.

Here's my high level agreement with Bosk's last paragraph:   through dialogue we learn.  We learn about the intents of some, the offense of others, and how they interrelate.   Removing the symbol stymies the debate, and, in my opinion, the opportunity to communicate and learn.

Let me posit this:  what's better?   A world with no symbols of racism, no symbols of hate, but plenty of seething hate and racism, undulating under the surface, or a world with an infinite number of things that CAN be symbols, but don't have any of the requisite (negative) emotions underneath?  I get it, that's a false, and perhaps na´ve, equivalency, but I don't mean it literally.   I do mean it in the sense that the two aren't necessarily related, and the "fight" against hate/racism often makes the same false equivalency (to the detriment of their argument, in my opinion). 

Offline Chino

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Re: I feel like I made a pretty good argument about the Confederate flag.
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2017, 11:16:13 AM »
The flag discussion is one such topic.   We don't think twice about wearing gear about a football team.  Hell, there are people here that have band logos tattooed on their flesh (ridiculous, in my opinion).  Why is having a flag that embodies an ethos that odd?  What's different about the "skull and crossbones", or the "rainbow flag" and this? I'm sure to some it has racist elements, but for example, my daughter has one on her computer because she was born in Georgia.  It is a part of her history, such that it is, and while she is aware of the connotations, she doesn't share those connotations, and has to deal with that.  She isn't getting it tattooed on her arm, but it IS a part of her life.   

I get what you're saying with this, and I'm confident that that your daughter isn't a racist at all, but I'm always curious as to why that's the 'part of history' that people want to display. Why don't people put Georgia's flag on their computers, or the symbol of Atlanta University that was founded to educate former slaves, or the Terminus logo symbolizing the railway Georgia built to connect much of the south together? Why don't we fly the British flag anywhere here in New England? Why don't German students put Nazi flag stickers on their cars? It's all 'part of history'. Again, not knocking your daughter, just admitting that I don't understand the desire to put that particular piece of history front and center on anything.

One, convenience.  When you go to the Big E (a local fair/festival that happens every year mid-September) and go into the booths that have nothing but stickers (all those Calvins pissing on car logos, the stick figure representations of families, etc.) there are 20 confederate flags, and nary a Georgia flag.  Same reason people put those oval "OBX" stickers on their cars instead of the North Carolina flag. 

Two, she has a Union Jack on her wall; something to do with Harry Potter and/or Harry Styles.   I bought it for her for Christmas one year.   She also has a "Fall Out Boy" flag too (can't all be winners. :)).   

Three, I can't speak for the Nazi symbol; it DOES mean "peace" historically.  I HAVE seen Indian women with that henna-like artwork on their hands with symbols that look like "swastikas".  I'm not sure what to say here.   Intellectually, it's not any different, but spiritually, I think it is undeniable that it is different.

The nazi flag and the swastika are different things IMO. And I was giving your daughter the benefit of the doubt, but Fall Out Boy? ... I'm offended. I don't know why, but I am.

Offline Stadler

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Re: I feel like I made a pretty good argument about the Confederate flag.
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2017, 11:16:45 AM »
Just a minor correction, swastikas have historically been more about other things (not really peace, but it's all good) but not the Nazi swastika. That one is a bit different and specific.

The question is still good though. Should German people be allowed to wave the Nazi flag or put up statues of Hitler in their communities without anyone being allowed to protest it or disagree with openly?

My own minor correction:  the beef isn't the "protest" or "disagreement".  I encourage the disagreement and the discussion.  My beef is the next step; the rewriting of history and the corresponding control of speech.

Offline Stadler

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Re: I feel like I made a pretty good argument about the Confederate flag.
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2017, 11:21:20 AM »
The nazi flag and the swastika are different things IMO. And I was giving your daughter the benefit of the doubt, but Fall Out Boy? ... I'm offended. I don't know why, but I am.

Sidebar (but still about "symbols" in a way):  Fall Out Boy to me symbolizes everything it means to me to be a parent.  I shake my head at the band.  I have deep problems (intellectually) with the notion of Pete Wentz (and the marriages, and the reality shows that go along with it, blah blah blah), it just seems to be calculated angst.   I'm a huge fan of "Live at Darryl's House" and Patrick was one of the very few that didn't show a deep and previously unseen musicianship (he was frankly out of his league), BUT... the music moves her, and she got to see them and I guess the band ran through the crowd, and both Pete and Patrick (Stump, singer) shook her hand and said some form of "hi!", and it made a difference for her.  So I put my cynicism aside and see that music touched her and know that it is good. 

Offline Adami

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Re: I feel like I made a pretty good argument about the Confederate flag.
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2017, 11:28:34 AM »
Just a minor correction, swastikas have historically been more about other things (not really peace, but it's all good) but not the Nazi swastika. That one is a bit different and specific.

The question is still good though. Should German people be allowed to wave the Nazi flag or put up statues of Hitler in their communities without anyone being allowed to protest it or disagree with openly?

My own minor correction:  the beef isn't the "protest" or "disagreement".  I encourage the disagreement and the discussion.  My beef is the next step; the rewriting of history and the corresponding control of speech.


Unless the government is doing it, then the speech isn't being controlled. Some people are telling other people to shut up. Which is fine.
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Offline Chino

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Re: I feel like I made a pretty good argument about the Confederate flag.
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2017, 11:32:01 AM »
The nazi flag and the swastika are different things IMO. And I was giving your daughter the benefit of the doubt, but Fall Out Boy? ... I'm offended. I don't know why, but I am.

Sidebar (but still about "symbols" in a way):  Fall Out Boy to me symbolizes everything it means to me to be a parent.  I shake my head at the band.  I have deep problems (intellectually) with the notion of Pete Wentz (and the marriages, and the reality shows that go along with it, blah blah blah), it just seems to be calculated angst.   I'm a huge fan of "Live at Darryl's House" and Patrick was one of the very few that didn't show a deep and previously unseen musicianship (he was frankly out of his league), BUT... the music moves her, and she got to see them and I guess the band ran through the crowd, and both Pete and Patrick (Stump, singer) shook her hand and said some form of "hi!", and it made a difference for her.  So I put my cynicism aside and see that music touched her and know that it is good.

That's cool. I'm just messing around, and "Live at Daryl's House" is great. I have a soft spot for Brand New's album "Your Favorite Weapon", even though I hate the rest of the genre. I like it because of the way a few songs resonated with me when I was like 17.

Offline Stadler

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Re: I feel like I made a pretty good argument about the Confederate flag.
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2017, 11:33:52 AM »
Just a minor correction, swastikas have historically been more about other things (not really peace, but it's all good) but not the Nazi swastika. That one is a bit different and specific.

The question is still good though. Should German people be allowed to wave the Nazi flag or put up statues of Hitler in their communities without anyone being allowed to protest it or disagree with openly?

My own minor correction:  the beef isn't the "protest" or "disagreement".  I encourage the disagreement and the discussion.  My beef is the next step; the rewriting of history and the corresponding control of speech.


Unless the government is doing it, then the speech isn't being controlled. Some people are telling other people to shut up. Which is fine.

Fair point; it may be "fine" to tell someone to "shut up" but is a pretty shitty argument, intellectually, and a pretty ineffective one, practically.   

Offline Adami

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Re: I feel like I made a pretty good argument about the Confederate flag.
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2017, 12:20:19 PM »
Just a minor correction, swastikas have historically been more about other things (not really peace, but it's all good) but not the Nazi swastika. That one is a bit different and specific.

The question is still good though. Should German people be allowed to wave the Nazi flag or put up statues of Hitler in their communities without anyone being allowed to protest it or disagree with openly?

My own minor correction:  the beef isn't the "protest" or "disagreement".  I encourage the disagreement and the discussion.  My beef is the next step; the rewriting of history and the corresponding control of speech.

Unless the government is doing it, then the speech isn't being controlled. Some people are telling other people to shut up. Which is fine.

Fair point; it may be "fine" to tell someone to "shut up" but is a pretty shitty argument, intellectually, and a pretty ineffective one, practically.

In most cases, yes. I feel all relevant discussions on racism have been had. We're showing that we disagree with it without feeling the need to pointlessly rehash hundreds of arguments that have already fallen on deaf ears.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 06:24:27 PM by Adami »
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Offline Orbert

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Re: I feel like I made a pretty good argument about the Confederate flag.
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2017, 04:20:33 PM »

Offline Stadler

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Re: I feel like I made a pretty good argument about the Confederate flag.
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2017, 09:03:41 AM »
Just a minor correction, swastikas have historically been more about other things (not really peace, but it's all good) but not the Nazi swastika. That one is a bit different and specific.

The question is still good though. Should German people be allowed to wave the Nazi flag or put up statues of Hitler in their communities without anyone being allowed to protest it or disagree with openly?

My own minor correction:  the beef isn't the "protest" or "disagreement".  I encourage the disagreement and the discussion.  My beef is the next step; the rewriting of history and the corresponding control of speech.

Unless the government is doing it, then the speech isn't being controlled. Some people are telling other people to shut up. Which is fine.

Fair point; it may be "fine" to tell someone to "shut up" but is a pretty shitty argument, intellectually, and a pretty ineffective one, practically.

In most cases, yes. I feel all relevant discussions on racism have been had. We're showing that we disagree with it without feeling the need to pointlessly rehash hundreds of arguments that have already fallen on deaf ears.

As a general proposition though - and I'm not going to rehash the entire Jingle conversation, but that has a lot of this idea in it - I bristle when someone says "I feel all relevant discussions... have been had".   What on this planet can't be improved upon (besides the glaringly obvious:  Margot Robbie, Ritchie Blackmore and Charlize Theron)?    If we stood pat after the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, where would we be?  We'd have, among other things, slavery.  If we stood pat after the Emancipation Proclamation, where would we be?   We'd have, among other things, separate bathrooms and water fountains.

I think that following eight years of an African American president - THE most powerful man on the planet - which gives lie to at least some of the notion of "no opportunity", and yet we're still having issues involving race... we have a lot to discuss, and a lot of relevant conversations yet to be had.     

Offline TL

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Re: I feel like I made a pretty good argument about the Confederate flag.
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2017, 04:32:37 PM »
I will say, I will probably never understand the affinity some people have for the confederate flag. I know that there are plenty of people who aren't racist and just want to use it as a symbol of southern pride. You like where you're from; that's great! It just seems like maybe a less loaded symbol with less baggage might be better?

Sure, it's all well and good for someone displaying the flag to say that they're not using it in a racist way. For instance, in the case of Stadler's daughter, I absolutely believe that she is not racist.  Here's the thing though. Other people who see that flag being displayed don't automatically know everything about the character and views of the person displaying it. Onlookers don't necessarily know the context in which it's being displayed. If anything, I would think that a non-racist person wouldn't want to voluntarily use a symbol where those kinds of assumptions can even be so readily made. There has to be some way people from the American south can display their pride in their region without having to constantly make clarifications about their intent.

Not to mention, the confederacy hasn't existed in a long time, and for almost its entire existence it was at war with the United States, with one of the main causes being that they wanted to keep slavery. Continuing to wave that flag around seems like a very anti-American thing to do, at least from my perspective. Again though, that's just my opinion. It's all well and good to say you aren't displaying the flag for those reasons, but the negative connotations don't disappear just because they're not what you're there for.

Offline bosk1

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Re: I feel like I made a pretty good argument about the Confederate flag.
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2017, 04:45:22 PM »
I always thought displaying the Confederate flag was simply a means of expressing appreciation for The Dukes of Hazzard.  :dunno:
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Offline Stadler

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Re: I feel like I made a pretty good argument about the Confederate flag.
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2017, 07:53:14 AM »
I always thought displaying the Confederate flag was simply a means of expressing appreciation for The Dukes of Hazzard:dunno:

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Offline XJDenton

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Re: I feel like I made a pretty good argument about the Confederate flag.
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2017, 07:57:50 AM »
Seems to me if you have pride in something you would want to choose a symbol that represents the thing at its best, not its worst.

Offline Stadler

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Re: I feel like I made a pretty good argument about the Confederate flag.
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2017, 08:18:58 AM »
I will say, I will probably never understand the affinity some people have for the confederate flag. I know that there are plenty of people who aren't racist and just want to use it as a symbol of southern pride. You like where you're from; that's great! It just seems like maybe a less loaded symbol with less baggage might be better?

Sure, it's all well and good for someone displaying the flag to say that they're not using it in a racist way. For instance, in the case of Stadler's daughter, I absolutely believe that she is not racist.  Here's the thing though. Other people who see that flag being displayed don't automatically know everything about the character and views of the person displaying it. Onlookers don't necessarily know the context in which it's being displayed. If anything, I would think that a non-racist person wouldn't want to voluntarily use a symbol where those kinds of assumptions can even be so readily made. There has to be some way people from the American south can display their pride in their region without having to constantly make clarifications about their intent.

Not to mention, the confederacy hasn't existed in a long time, and for almost its entire existence it was at war with the United States, with one of the main causes being that they wanted to keep slavery. Continuing to wave that flag around seems like a very anti-American thing to do, at least from my perspective. Again though, that's just my opinion. It's all well and good to say you aren't displaying the flag for those reasons, but the negative connotations don't disappear just because they're not what you're there for.

Lemme ask you this, though:  why is this ostensibly a different conversation when "Race" is in play?   Because it is, and it's not limited to "the confederate flag".   Why do we celebrate ANYTHING from history, knowing that historically women didn't vote, gays were in the closet, cocaine use was not only legal but encouraged as an elixir, when children's toys basically involved firearms, explosives and sharp knives, and most of us thought God would strike you down in the street for the mildest of transgressions?   

Why, with most other issues (and independent of the size of the groups in question) does one have to put their moral beliefs on hold, and not just tolerate, but ACCEPT, say, for example, the homosexual, assume they are a wholesome contributor to the moral fabric of our society (and not a sexual deviant), but we don't afford the same courtesy when talking about race?

Now, I'm making examples here; I do not at all - not even a little bit - feel that there is a moral or deviant component to one's sexuality (I am firmly in the "biological" camp, though there is room within that for further understanding), but the point stands:  why do we change the framing just because it's "race"? 
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 08:24:49 AM by Stadler »

Offline bosk1

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Re: I feel like I made a pretty good argument about the Confederate flag.
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2017, 08:48:14 AM »
Seems to me if you have pride in something you would want to choose a symbol that represents the thing at its best, not its worst.

I agree.  I mean, it's like carelessly flying the union jack.  You know, the same union jack that was flown with pride as the British raped and subjugated India.  Or that was flown with pride when the royal army stole, burned, and pillaged and slaughtered its own countrymen in the American colonies for decades BEFORE the American revolutionary war.  Or...well, you get the idea.

The thing is, while you are correct in the abstract, I think you know that it isn't so cut-and-dry in practice.  For almost any symbol we can choose, there are groups that have historically adopted that symbol to perpetrate ugliness  and hate.  Does that mean that symbol can then ONLY be used to refer to that same ugliness and hate, or is there a chance that those flying the flag or brandishing whatever the symbol are more focused on what they see as the positive historical legacy that is behind it?  I think it's a legitimate question, and I think we shouldn't be so hasty to rush to judgment over what flag someone identifies with.  When is the line crossed where a given symbol is primarily or almost exclusively representative of only ugliness and hate, and not something legitimate at the same time?  Yes, we may have reached a point in our history where most of us collectively feel that flying that particular flag (the Confederate flag) is, at best, misguided and distasteful, and at worst, something much more insidious.  But I think we also need to be a bit more tolerant and realize that not everyone looks at it that way, and there are still a significant number of people who see it is a positive symbol of their regional history, separate and apart from the fact that others see it as a historic symbol of slavery and White oppression.  To me, it's a tough call.  I think some understanding of both sides of the argument is probably a better approach (as is true with most issues, I think).
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 09:42:38 AM by bosk1 »
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Stadler

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Re: I feel like I made a pretty good argument about the Confederate flag.
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2017, 09:38:33 AM »
The Union Jack is a great example; ask Joe Elliott (or Rick Allen), Pete Townsend, Iron Maiden, or Noel Gallagher about those things.   I know you said "carelessly", but that's up for debate as to what that means in a different context.

Offline XJDenton

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Re: I feel like I made a pretty good argument about the Confederate flag.
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2017, 01:06:32 PM »
@Bosk: What is the positive historical legacy of the confederacy?

Offline bosk1

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Re: I feel like I made a pretty good argument about the Confederate flag.
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2017, 01:23:12 PM »
That question misses the point.  What is the positive historical legacy of any particular geographical location?  You'd probably be best served by asking the folks that live there.  To those that do, and feel personally invested in or enriched by the history of that region, that is in and of itself a positive historical legacy.  My point is that I don't think it's fair for those of us on the outside to invalidate it or dismiss it out of hand because of some specific negative connotations. 
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline XJDenton

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Re: I feel like I made a pretty good argument about the Confederate flag.
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2017, 01:33:59 PM »
Would you be okay with someone flying a Swastika outside their house so long as they were personally invested in or enriched by the history of the third Reich?

The confederacy was not simply a "geographical region". It was a specific regime, with a specific sets of laws and values, of which the flag is a symbolic representation. The same way the swastika is not a symbol of just "Germany", but instead a symbol that embodies the values and policies of the Nazi regime. Neo-nazis do not fly that flag out of some pride of Germany: it is a call to arms to enact the values and policies that regime represented.

Hence, I think it is important to be reflective as to what the confederacy and its values represent in the context of flying a symbol of that regime when discussing whether or not it is appropriate to fly it. Hence, why I ask, what is their positive historical legacy?
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 01:44:47 PM by XJDenton »

Offline El Barto

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Re: I feel like I made a pretty good argument about the Confederate flag.
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2017, 01:39:30 PM »
@Bosk: What is the positive historical legacy of the confederacy?
Bosk's reply is correct. What I can tell you down here is that we have a different association with the flag than the folks up North. To us it's emblamatic of the South. Nothing more. Up North it seems to be interpreted as "fuck yeah, slavery rules!" So, as Bosk correctly pointed out, seeing it from your perspective doesn't invalidate ours.

I'll also throw out that I don't see a significant historical legacy. I see a huge cultural difference, though. That to me is something worth celebrating. Myself, I'm troubled by the backlash the flag has caused, simply because I think the interpretation is wrong. However, I'd be just fine with any flag conveying the message we in the South associate with it. AFAIC, a flag with a taco, a cowboy hat, and a little old lady offering a slice of pecan pie would be just fine.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: I feel like I made a pretty good argument about the Confederate flag.
« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2017, 01:44:06 PM »
Would you be okay with someone flying a Swastika outside their house so long as they were personally invested in or enriched by the history of the third Reich?
Would you be okay with a Buddhist of Hindu person flying a Swastika flag out their house? This pretty much nails my extrapolation of the point I believe Bosk was making. You're basing your dislike on your own interpretation of their meaning.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline XJDenton

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Re: I feel like I made a pretty good argument about the Confederate flag.
« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2017, 01:47:02 PM »
Would you be okay with a Buddhist of Hindu person flying a Swastika flag out their house?

Yes. The symbols in that case would be distinct from Nazi Iconography.

Offline bosk1

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Re: I feel like I made a pretty good argument about the Confederate flag.
« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2017, 01:47:47 PM »
Would you be okay with someone flying a Swastika outside their house so long as they were personally invested in or enriched by the history of the third Reich?

"Okay with" in terms of, do I think they should have a right to have it?  Yes.  Free speech, and all that.  "Okay with" in terms of, do I think anyone doing so should be immune from criticism?  Nope, I'm not personally okay with it.  But those two symbols are also not equivalent.  A swastika is clearly over the line.  The Confederate flag?  Not so much.  Like I said, maybe we are at a point in our history where we recognize that it is over the line.  But so much so that it is clearly a bright line?  No, far from it.  There is too much mixed history behind that symbol.  With the swastika, there is not.

The confederacy was not simply a "geographical region". It was a specific regime, with a specific sets of laws and values, of which the flag is a symbolic representation. The same way the swastika is not a symbol of just "Germany", but instead a symbol that embodies the values and policies of the Nazi regime.

Well, except that it's not as simple as that.  Yes, the flag was adopted as a symbol of the Confederate states that attempted to secede.  But it is also generally a symbol of the South as a region, as Barto points out.  I'm not saying we shouldn't second guess whether to publicly fly that flag.  But I am saying that it is far more nuanced than you make it out to be, and I don't think we should be so quick to condemn.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline XeRocks81

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Re: I feel like I made a pretty good argument about the Confederate flag.
« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2017, 02:07:40 PM »
Would you be okay with someone flying a Swastika outside their house so long as they were personally invested in or enriched by the history of the third Reich?
Would you be okay with a Buddhist of Hindu person flying a Swastika flag out their house? This pretty much nails my extrapolation of the point I believe Bosk was making. You're basing your dislike on your own interpretation of their meaning.

it's not just HIS interpretation though,  I know that doesn't change your point but still.