Author Topic: Racial tension ramping up....  (Read 3655 times)

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Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #70 on: August 15, 2017, 03:39:37 PM »

Stage your counter-protests. Just put it 10 miles away. Get news coverage of your thousands of people and make sure that if the Nazis get any coverage at all it just looks like a hundred dorks trying to look significant.

This I could potentially get behind.  It's what the women's march post-inauguration was, sort of.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #71 on: August 15, 2017, 03:42:10 PM »
Sometimes. Look at Westboro. There's counter protests to them all the time, and they're not getting more popular.

It sounds really nice to assume that ignoring them will make them dissolve, but honestly that's just not how these things work. It makes them try harder and recruit more. Plus, the cultural zeitgeist right now really breeds a lot of those sentiments. So they're not going to fizzle out. They're going to get bigger either way. And if ignored, they can more subtly infiltrate higher society and become more powerful.
But again, Barto isn't saying to ignore them.  He's saying to not give voice to them.  That's an important distinction.

But not matter what, they aren't going to "dissolve."  I don't think he's saying that is the goal.  And that's because it is an impossible goal, no matter the approach.  They won't dissolve.  But they won't have power either. 
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #72 on: August 15, 2017, 03:53:15 PM »
The problem now is that the counter-protests are staged for confrontation. What good can possibly come from such a battle? I can't point to numerous harms that will result.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #73 on: August 15, 2017, 04:09:46 PM »
So I have two hypothetical question for people (well, they're the same thing just inverted). If it's been asked before, my bad.

Say the original gathering was a pro ISIS (or IS, ISIL, whatever) demonstration. Then there was a counter protest. Then one of the pro ISIS people ran into them with a car and killed one. Would there be a different reaction?

And inverted.

Say the original gathering was anti-ISIS demonstration. Then there was a pro ISIS counter protest. Then one of the anti-ISIS people ran into them with a car and killed one. What would be the reaction?

I have a feeling the questions are going to be sidestepped, but I'd be curious. And this isn't necessarily coming from your perspective. How would Trump have responded to either? How would the media or general population?
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Offline Elite

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #74 on: August 15, 2017, 04:17:34 PM »
It's time for this motherfucker to get out of the White House. When the KKK starts agreeing with you, you're doing something very, very wrong. Your president is an openly racist, white supremacist lunatic and it's completely and utterly ridiculous that he's still holding that position while making your whole country look like idiots.
Hey dude slow the fuck down so we can finish together at the same time.  :biggrin:
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #75 on: August 15, 2017, 04:39:02 PM »
And inverted.



If an ISIS member killed a counter-protester, it would be viewed differently, as their stated goal is to, well, kill us. Which they have done. So publicly, it would be viewed differently. That may be bad optics, but that's what would happen. Your inverted question has me stumped though, I can't say with any certainly how that would play out.
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Offline antigoon

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #76 on: August 15, 2017, 04:59:43 PM »


\_(ツ)_/

Offline El Barto

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #77 on: August 15, 2017, 05:05:51 PM »

Say the original gathering was a pro ISIS (or IS, ISIL, whatever) demonstration. Then there was a counter protest. Then one of the pro ISIS people ran into them with a car and killed one. Would there be a different reaction?
Well, who's on what side makes no difference whatsoever. But since you asked:

"This is why we have to confront radical Islam, which I am doing. This is why we need more secure borders, like what my wonderful immigration ban would insure. It's wonderful. If so-called judges had instituted my ban originally this might not have happened. That beautiful young lady wouldn't have been killed by the terrorists that Obama, the democrats, and so-called judges allowed to be here."


Quote
Say the original gathering was anti-ISIS demonstration. Then there was a pro ISIS counter protest. Then one of the anti-ISIS people ran into them with a car and killed one. What would be the reaction?
"There is no place in this country for ISIS and we should never allow them to openly hold such rallies. The real Americans were the ones standing up to them by exercising their right to protest."

In reality the blame is 100% on the asshole driving the car. If we're to start looking at contributing factors then some responsibility comes down to both sides of the debate, and I'd probably shift most of it to the counter- side as they're the ones inviting confrontation. Whether it's pro- or anti- this or that doesn't really matter. That's why some of us get bent out of shape when these things invariably become political footballs. Neither side has the monopoly on what's right, despite assurances from both sides to the contrary and their tendency to judge things based on their feelings.


edit: and as an aside, trying to write like that nimrod really makes my brain hurt.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #78 on: August 15, 2017, 05:56:09 PM »
I think some (not you) have deluded themselves into thinking "the north is and was always so enlightened, while the south is filled with nothing but backwards, racist hicks."
I wouldn't put it quite so starkly, but from what I've seen people up North almost always see the civil war as 100% about slavery and reminders of it nothing but monuments from soar losers. Down here things seem to be a bit more nuanced. While there are certainly some racist assholes who celebrate Lee for the wrong reasons, they're the exception.

From my perspective, before he was turned into a political football, Lee was a complicated fellow. He was certainly a slave owner, but he didn't seem to share Lincoln's animosity towards the negro and his opinions on slavery as an institution were complex. Sadly, complexity and nuance are becoming as antiquated and obsolete as statues of the confederacy when it comes to discussions about race. There's simply no room for it in an increasingly dumbed down, binary discussion.

As for myself, I'm not in any position to judge Lee's attitude towards the races, but he certainly seemed to be on better footing than the so-called union heroes of the civil war. As far as I'm concerned his record before and after the war leave room for a bit of statuary regardless of assumptions about his attitudes on race. Before the war he was commandant of the US Military Academy at West Point. He served well for the Army in numerous battles. He turned Washington and Lee into a very successful university and something of a model to go forward. These sorts of things mean more to me than the simple bleating of "but, but, but, slavery!", stated without any reasonable context or rationale.

Great post!  :tup :tup

Offline pogoowner

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #79 on: August 15, 2017, 06:11:28 PM »
I'm curious how the results of being "outed" will affect further white nationalist demonstrations. The social media mob has identified a huge percentage of those who participated in that rally, and some have lost their jobs already. Does that discourage people from participating in the future? Do they disguise themselves? Or are these people too far gone to care anyway?

Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #80 on: August 15, 2017, 07:45:41 PM »
Continuing the thread of El Barto's talk about General Lee (the guy, not the car), I thought this piece was interesting:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/robert-e-lee-opposed-confederate-monuments/


Offline portnoy311

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #81 on: August 15, 2017, 08:09:00 PM »
 @MittRomney
No, not the same. One side is racist, bigoted, Nazi. The other opposes racism and bigotry. Morally different universes.
5:14 PM - 15 Aug 2017


Mitt is a palatable conservative. I wish he had run.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 08:29:03 PM by portnoy311 »

Offline El Barto

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #82 on: August 15, 2017, 08:19:27 PM »
Continuing the thread of El Barto's talk about General Lee (the guy, not the car), I thought this piece was interesting:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/robert-e-lee-opposed-confederate-monuments/


The interesting part, for me at least, is how he would have felt 40 years later, when the acrimony had settled down. When the statues started going up the North and South were getting along just fine, united in the common goal of keeping the black folk down. In any case, another example of Lee being more complicated than people want to give him credit for.
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Offline TAC

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #83 on: August 15, 2017, 08:20:03 PM »
Mitt is a palpable conservative. I wish he had run.

He did.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline portnoy311

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #84 on: August 15, 2017, 08:27:40 PM »
Great, I was clearly talking about 2016.

Offline antigoon

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #85 on: August 15, 2017, 08:55:08 PM »
@MittRomney
No, not the same. One side is racist, bigoted, Nazi. The other opposes racism and bigotry. Morally different universes.
5:14 PM - 15 Aug 2017


Mitt is a palatable conservative. I wish he had run.

That's a nice thing to say, and it's obviously true, but we've learned nothing about Trump in the past few days that we haven't known for a long time and if Romney was truly opposed to this guy he (and other "never trump" conservatives) could have actually endorsed Trump's opponent.

Online kingshmegland

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #86 on: August 15, 2017, 09:03:14 PM »
The problem is that politics is a business and there are pressures from your party.  This is a bold step for Romney to say. He deserves credit
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Online PowerSlave

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #87 on: August 15, 2017, 09:43:34 PM »
I don't believe that slavery was something that happened in the north. At least, I've never heard mention of it if it did. 

Did you skip history class in school? ;)

I admit that I very well could be missing/forgetting something that's obvious/common knowledge.

I do remember reading that it was legal for slave catchers from the south to cross borders into northern states to retrieve runaway slaves, but I don't remember seeing anything saying that it was legal in the north. Also, I think of the 3/5 compromise in the constitution as being a benefit to the south etc. etc...

The 3/5 compromise helped both sides.  It was not a judgment on the worth of the black man (as is often stated, wrongly, today) but rather a way of establishing representation.   When determining representation (number of Representatives in Congress, for example) the South wanted slaves to count man for man (they would get more reps that way).  The North didn't want them to count at all, on the grounds that if you didn't give them the rights and obligations under the Constitution, you shouldn't get the benefit of their presence in tallying the population for representation purposes.   The "3/5" was a way of bridging that gap.

Yes, the secession plans called for slavery to be a part of the new union, but the Founding Fathers had notoriously punted on the slavery issue, allowing that it was a problem, but understanding that there would be no union if it was made an issue, and the only way to RESOLVE the issue was to have a union.  It is a profound example of a Catch-22.   But the basis for slavery wasn't racism, or human rights, it was economic.   Only something like 10 to 20% of households owned  slaves.  They were expensive, and they were considered a taxable asset. There were even free Negro landowners in the south that owned slaves.    It is 240 years later and we see the difficulty in our farming enterprises being profitable; imagine 200 years ago, with the advent of the steam engine and the rest of the industrial revolution; slavery was very much a matter of survival for the Southern states.  The bigger issue was the idea of Federalism; that Washington could and did dictate the way of life for the given states... it was not an idea that swallowed easily. 

(And we wonder today about the power of our government, and issues like the Electoral College and what not.)

I do realize that the 3/5 compromise was a representation issue, but I keep running into a mental roadblock with it from a couple of aspects.

1. The slaves weren't considered citizens of the colonies. From my understanding, they were considered to be property that had no more rights than a farm animal. How can a piece of property be granted full or partial representation in any government?

2. The second thing kind of goes hand in hand with the first, but in my view a representative government should be held in check by being answerable to its constituents. How can someone represent someone/something (based on that person being considered property with no rights) that they don't have to answer to?

I realize that I have a 20th-21st century liberal mindset about it, and that I'm far removed from situation by a few centuries, but I'm failing to grasp the rationale behind it at all. A representative government should be constrained to the number of citizens that it answers to directly, and those that it serves. At the time of the writing of the constitution, it only really fully served rich white land owners. In turn, this was a boon to the states in the south. The House of Representatives was initially setup to grant more power to a region of the country that did less in service to those in its area than the other part of the country, unless you consider holding another human being captive, under the constant threat of death, physical punishment or spontaneous removal from your family and familiar surroundings as being in service to them.

As you mentioned, I understand why the representatives from the northern colonies did this. They had to give something to entice their southern counterparts, but the thought behind it will always baffle me. Maybe that's my short coming, but I'm reluctant to give in to that.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #88 on: August 15, 2017, 10:24:14 PM »
The problem is that politics is a business and there are pressures from your party.  This is a bold step for Romney to say. He deserves credit

It's a sad day when being anti-nazi is something to really praise someone for.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #89 on: August 15, 2017, 11:30:49 PM »
If an ISIS member killed a counter-protester, it would be viewed differently, as their stated goal is to, well, kill us. Which they have done. So publicly, it would be viewed differently. That may be bad optics, but that's what would happen. Your inverted question has me stumped though, I can't say with any certainly how that would play out.


The stated mission of the Nazis and KKK and so forth is also to kill people. In the case of the Nazis, destroying America was up there.
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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #90 on: August 15, 2017, 11:33:27 PM »
The problem is that politics is a business and there are pressures from your party.  This is a bold step for Romney to say. He deserves credit

It's a sad day when being anti-nazi is something to really praise someone for.

It's quite disturbing to see what is so quickly and easily normalized in the US.  No offense Joe, but publicly stating the obvious should not be considered "bold".
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #91 on: August 15, 2017, 11:53:12 PM »
The stated mission of the Nazis and KKK and so forth is also to kill people. In the case of the Nazis, destroying America was up there.

Fair enough, I typed that on my lunch break from building a deck all day, and it made sense at the time.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #92 on: August 16, 2017, 12:02:18 AM »
The stated mission of the Nazis and KKK and so forth is also to kill people. In the case of the Nazis, destroying America was up there.

Fair enough, I typed that on my lunch break from building a deck all day, and it made sense at the time.

Haha no I totally got you. I think in my original question, it was people who support ISIS and not necessarily people who want to murder everyone.

Since a lot of the people defending the white nationalists say that every single view point should be allowed (which I agree), but that would include ISIS supporters.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #93 on: August 16, 2017, 12:25:30 AM »
Since a lot of the people defending the white nationalists say that every single view point should be allowed (which I agree), but that would include ISIS supporters.
[/quote]

Viewpoints, yes, right to assemble, protest... within the confines of the law.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #94 on: August 16, 2017, 12:28:36 AM »
Since a lot of the people defending the white nationalists say that every single view point should be allowed (which I agree), but that would include ISIS supporters.

Viewpoints, yes, right to assemble, protest... within the confines of the law.
[/quote]

Exactly. Which I meant to imply in my original questions. Assuming of course, people think the white nationalists kept everything within the confines of the law (minus the whole killing the other people of course).
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #95 on: August 16, 2017, 06:05:18 AM »
Does simply ignoring hate always work though? As someone else pointed out, the original Nazis were simply ignored and tolerated as well. It's not black and white.

This isn't the case of 4-5 people, this is thousands if not more. Their numbers don't suddenly shrink if we ignore them. Although I agree that violence is never the answer and don't believe they should ever be fought with violence.

I just think it's easy for people, especially those whom these groups have no issues with, to simply look the other way, while others, with whom these groups pose an actual threat, might not be able to do so easily.

But my point is their numbers don't shrink by lowering ourselves to their standards.   Look, Trump's a maniac, but he wasn't totally wrong in his press conference yesterday:   it takes two to riot.   I think we are advanced enough, and educated enough and intelligent enough to see the difference between a party that had secured elected office, including the highest position in the land, and a group - be it single digits or "thousands" (I tend to think the rally was somewhere in between) - that is pleading for publicity any way it can get it.   

And who's to say I don't have issue?   Who's to say that they DON'T pose an actual threat?  This isn't about ME (or any one person).  That's the point.  What's good for ME (or any one person) may not be good for the collective.   We have this mindset today, in the Twitter age, that MY FEELINGS MATTER, and what is good for MY FEELINGS somehow MUST BE good for everyone.  I call bullshit on that, hardcore.  It's why I spend so much time defending the attacks against people I disagree with (vehemently, in some cases).  What's good for me has no bearing whatsoever on - and is sometimes antithetical to - what is good for the collective.   

Society is an implicit contract between people wherein we consciously agree that our individual rights may come in conflict, and we (used to, anyway) agree that in such cases, we would find a way to compromise those rights so that the most people still have the most rights.  We agree that we can have different opinions, and we agree that as long as we don't act on them, we're good.  We agree our freedom of, say, privacy is such that I can't exert that if it means that my actions deprive you of one of your other rights, like "life".   It's all a compromise of rights.   And it's funny, because nowhere in any of the documentation supporting this country, not in the Declaration of Independence, not in the Constitution, not in the Bill of Rights, not in any of the writings of the Founding Fathers, not in any of the State Constitutions (some of which contributed to the national documents) is there the right to deny someone else their rights in any way shape or form in order for your right to be offended to be preserved.   

Offline Stadler

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #96 on: August 16, 2017, 06:10:11 AM »
So I have two hypothetical question for people (well, they're the same thing just inverted). If it's been asked before, my bad.

Say the original gathering was a pro ISIS (or IS, ISIL, whatever) demonstration. Then there was a counter protest. Then one of the pro ISIS people ran into them with a car and killed one. Would there be a different reaction?

And inverted.

Say the original gathering was anti-ISIS demonstration. Then there was a pro ISIS counter protest. Then one of the anti-ISIS people ran into them with a car and killed one. What would be the reaction?

I have a feeling the questions are going to be sidestepped, but I'd be curious. And this isn't necessarily coming from your perspective. How would Trump have responded to either? How would the media or general population?

I can't and won't try to put myself in Trump's brain to see how he would have responded.   But the response to the two scenarios WOULD have been different, and that's the problem.   You'd have people rationalizing their side, and whichever group seemed to have "numbers", the media would have fed that like your concubine feeds you grapes.   

It's REALLY bugging me, 16 hours later (plus or minus) the way that female reporter kept on at Trump about "So, are you saying that the alt-Left and the alt-Right are just as bad?"   "So, President Trump, are you REALLY saying that the alt-Left is just as bad as the alt-Right?" as if the answer was plain as the cold sore on your upper lip.    Yeah, EXTREMISM IS BAD, lady.  And you have to stop embracing so readily your OWN extremism as somehow "controllable" and "just" when it suits you. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #97 on: August 16, 2017, 06:17:16 AM »
It's time for this motherfucker to get out of the White House. When the KKK starts agreeing with you, you're doing something very, very wrong. Your president is an openly racist, white supremacist lunatic and it's completely and utterly ridiculous that he's still holding that position while making your whole country look like idiots.


What?  Since when do we witch hunt our leaders because of innuendo and personal perception?  (Wait...)

I don't at all agree with that highly emotional analysis.  He's a fucking idiot, but unfortunately, that's not grounds for impeachment (we've had two relative idiots since I was born, and we'll have more, unfortunately).  That someone else agrees with you - good or bad - is not grounds for impeachment.    Personally, I think the vast majority of people in the United States understand that racism is narrow-minded, limiting and ultimately not a productive line of thought.   I believe in the power of ideas, I believe in the power of debate, and I believe, ultimately, that racism will be defeated by peaceful means, through every person doing their best each day to live a race-free life.   

I am far more bothered when a group like the Teachers Union agrees with my President, because it means we've got 50% of the population that is economically up their ass, and THAT'S truly dangerous.   Those are what experts call "numbers".    That a group agrees - or can find agreement in their twisted maniacal view of the world - with a President doesn't mean that they're right, or that the President is wrong. 

It's just that some how "race" has been framed as the "Silver Bullet Issue"TM that trumps all things, including reason, fairness, the right to disagree, and the obligation to abide by the law. 
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 06:36:07 AM by Stadler »

Offline Chino

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #98 on: August 16, 2017, 06:18:05 AM »
Does simply ignoring hate always work though? As someone else pointed out, the original Nazis were simply ignored and tolerated as well. It's not black and white.

This isn't the case of 4-5 people, this is thousands if not more. Their numbers don't suddenly shrink if we ignore them. Although I agree that violence is never the answer and don't believe they should ever be fought with violence.

I just think it's easy for people, especially those whom these groups have no issues with, to simply look the other way, while others, with whom these groups pose an actual threat, might not be able to do so easily.

But my point is their numbers don't shrink by lowering ourselves to their standards.  Look, Trump's a maniac, but he wasn't totally wrong in his press conference yesterday:   it takes two to riot.   I think we are advanced enough, and educated enough and intelligent enough to see the difference between a party that had secured elected office, including the highest position in the land, and a group - be it single digits or "thousands" (I tend to think the rally was somewhere in between) - that is pleading for publicity any way it can get it.   


He's definitely not wrong in that regard, but he's entirely wrong in how he says it. He words these little outbursts in such a way that make it seems like he thinks the "alt-left" and these KKK and Nazi folk are equally horrible (I think that he actually does for the record). These situations need to be handled delicately, and vindicating a group of people that would hang liberals in the street (I don't mean that figuratively) if given the chance isn't the way to do it. He could have expressed deep disgust at the fact that we have Nazis and KKK members marching through our streets, while at the same time acknowledging the reality that there has been recorded incidents of violence from protesters at gatherings such as these. Instead of shouting over and interrupting reporters, or walking out of the room when a question hits too close to home, we need someone who can stand with demeanor and calmly answer questions in a mature and presidential way.  He needs to acknowledge the anger the "alt-left" feels, but plead with them to not escalate it to violence. Do not come armed. Do not damage property. Do not instigate and record for instagram likes. Exercise your rights as Americans to protest, but don't behave like the people you're trying to condemn. He also needs to emphasize over and over again that this is a very small subset of people, on both sides. Not all democrats/liberals are part of the antifa movement, and not all republicans are kkk members and nazi sympathizers. But he can't. He's either not smart enough, not well spoken enough, or deliberately going out of his way to not anger the small, true group of supporters that he has.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #99 on: August 16, 2017, 06:23:11 AM »
I'm curious how the results of being "outed" will affect further white nationalist demonstrations. The social media mob has identified a huge percentage of those who participated in that rally, and some have lost their jobs already. Does that discourage people from participating in the future? Do they disguise themselves? Or are these people too far gone to care anyway?

It will, in my opinion, make the fringe people, who don't fully buy in, scared to voice their opinion (which is a wonderful thing in a democracy, huh?).   It will embolden and empower the hard core, by giving them a cause to stand behind.  "I was silenced by the liberal-loving, commie bureaucracy that can't abide a little truth now and again."  Actually, that's not entirely true, because they won't know what a word like "abide" means.   But they will gain a temporary justification, blaming their job loss on the Jews, or the N*****s, or someone else, anyone but themselves.   "Racism" is not a condition that survives a tremendous amount of self-scrutiny, and that kind of hate only festers in an environment of self-hate. 

Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #100 on: August 16, 2017, 06:25:11 AM »
edit: nevermind it's too early for me to read Stadler's posts    carry on

Offline Chino

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #101 on: August 16, 2017, 06:26:54 AM »
So what would YOU say Stadler if you met one those Nazis face to face?   You'd chit chat over tea and and crumpet and say he makes some good points?

For the record, Stadler and I disagree on a ton of stuff and we got along in a parking lot just fine (I think).

Offline Stadler

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #102 on: August 16, 2017, 06:30:59 AM »
@MittRomney
No, not the same. One side is racist, bigoted, Nazi. The other opposes racism and bigotry. Morally different universes.
5:14 PM - 15 Aug 2017


Mitt is a palatable conservative. I wish he had run.

That's a nice thing to say, and it's obviously true, but we've learned nothing about Trump in the past few days that we haven't known for a long time and if Romney was truly opposed to this guy he (and other "never trump" conservatives) could have actually endorsed Trump's opponent.

You learned nothing.  You have taken those bits that fit the world view that you already had, and rejected those pieces that don't fit.  Just like people have been doing for months.

I get CNN newsfeeds on my phone, and it's blowing up to day with "the REAL Donald Trump has exposed himself" and "Now we know the REAL Donald Trump".  You know shit.   Trump is pandering to all sides like he has for months going on years.  He's argumentative, and he can't POSSIBLY agree with the "Fake News Liberal Media".    This isn't about Trump's true colors, least of all as a "racist". Honestly?  I don't think he cares one way or the other.   Being a "racist" requires him to dig in, take a stand, and take a side, and he can't do that.   

And as a sort of quasi-"Never Trump", you're dead wrong.   He DID oppose Trump at the primary stage, but the Republicans, unlike the Democrats led by Debbie Wasserman-Scrimshaw, who decided to ram their preferred candidate through (and we see how effective that was), let the process play out the way it was supposed to.    At the national election stage, well, I don't know how Mitt voted, personally, but believe me, the choices were not good.  "A guy who COULD be a racist, COULD be a closet Democrat, but also COULD be the businessman and practical leader we know we need" versus a career politician who's sense of entitlement wafted through every room she was in like a Taco Bell/Schlitz beer fart, and who perjured herself repeatedly to avoid further investigations into a crime that could (in her view) derail her destiny... please.     

Offline Stadler

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #103 on: August 16, 2017, 06:34:50 AM »
The problem is that politics is a business and there are pressures from your party.  This is a bold step for Romney to say. He deserves credit

It's a sad day when being anti-nazi is something to really praise someone for.

It's quite disturbing to see what is so quickly and easily normalized in the US.  No offense Joe, but publicly stating the obvious should not be considered "bold".

What's "normalized"?   Who has "normalized" Nazi-ism?    Allowing someone their rights to express themselves doesn't in and of itself "normalize" the content of that speech.   "Normalization" happens individually.   

What's a shock to me is how readily we are to trample on people's constitutional rights to peaceably demonstrate, and to hold a contrary view just because we don't like the message.  What's - unfortunately - been "normalized" is this idea that because someone is "offended" that someone else must logically be held accountable.   

Offline Stadler

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #104 on: August 16, 2017, 06:44:55 AM »
Does simply ignoring hate always work though? As someone else pointed out, the original Nazis were simply ignored and tolerated as well. It's not black and white.

This isn't the case of 4-5 people, this is thousands if not more. Their numbers don't suddenly shrink if we ignore them. Although I agree that violence is never the answer and don't believe they should ever be fought with violence.

I just think it's easy for people, especially those whom these groups have no issues with, to simply look the other way, while others, with whom these groups pose an actual threat, might not be able to do so easily.

But my point is their numbers don't shrink by lowering ourselves to their standards.  Look, Trump's a maniac, but he wasn't totally wrong in his press conference yesterday:   it takes two to riot.   I think we are advanced enough, and educated enough and intelligent enough to see the difference between a party that had secured elected office, including the highest position in the land, and a group - be it single digits or "thousands" (I tend to think the rally was somewhere in between) - that is pleading for publicity any way it can get it.   


He's definitely not wrong in that regard, but he's entirely wrong in how he says it. He words these little outbursts in such a way that make it seems like he thinks the "alt-left" and these KKK and Nazi folk are equally horrible (I think that he actually does for the record).

So do I, for the record.   I'm an idea guy.  The idea is sacred, and at the end of the day, I truly believe the good ideas will outlast the bad.    I disagree with extremism, and I believe that from an extreme idea perspective, the alt-Left and the alt-Right are equally bad.   They both seek to tell others how to think, how to live their lives, and what choices they should be making.    And while it might be more overt on the right (or should I say, in a form that we more readily recognize and feel disgust toward) the violence on the left is every bit as real, and every bit as destructive.   

Look, say what you want, the videos of the counter-protestors BEATING the protestors with sticks and fist is still, when you boil it down, one human beating another because they have different ideas.  I find that morally and practically abhorrent. 

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These situations need to be handled delicately, and vindicating a group of people that would hang liberals in the street (I don't mean that figuratively) if given the chance isn't the way to do it. He could have expressed deep disgust at the fact that we have Nazis and KKK members marching through our streets, while at the same time acknowledging the reality that there has been recorded incidents of violence from protesters at gatherings such as these.

Chino, I listened to the press conference in real time.  THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HE DID.  I heard it with my own two ears.  And by the way, no one (that I know, anyway) is "vindicating" any group.  The Nazi and KKK groups are not right.   Their ideas are not conducive to a democracy where everyone is created equal.    Hearing them out is not "vindicating" them.   We let criminals, as a matter of law and a matter of right, be heard in EVERY criminal case we have.  That does not in any way "vindicate" those that actually committed their crimes.


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Instead of shouting over and interrupting reporters, or walking out of the room when a question hits too close to home, we need someone who can stand with demeanor and calmly answer questions in a mature and presidential way.  He needs to acknowledge the anger the "alt-left" feels, but plead with them to not escalate it to violence. Do not come armed. Do not damage property. Do not instigate and record for instagram likes. Exercise your rights as Americans to protest, but don't behave like the people you're trying to condemn. He also needs to emphasize over and over again that this is a very small subset of people, on both sides. Not all democrats/liberals are part of the antifa movement, and not all republicans are kkk members and nazi sympathizers. But he can't. He's either not smart enough, not well spoken enough, or deliberately going out of his way to not anger the small, true group of supporters that he has.

I agree with all of this 100%.  I think you're spot on on this.   He DID handle it poorly.  He was angry.  I think the Trump haters (somehow, YOUR hate is good, but other's hate?   Not so much...) have it wrong that he was angry at an ideology being attacked.  I think he was angry that HE was being attacked.  That the media didn't report what he saw, and that being a President who is measured, fair, and willing to look at both sides.    He THOUGHT he was being Kennedy on that podium.   What he didn't know is that it was Jamie, not John F.   But that's a very big and important difference.