Author Topic: Racial tension ramping up....  (Read 2807 times)

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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #35 on: August 14, 2017, 08:19:01 PM »
Correct, but slavery was very prominent in the north in the early stages of this country post-1776.

Offline Adami

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #36 on: August 14, 2017, 08:23:05 PM »
Correct, but slavery was very prominent in the north in the early stages of this country post-1776.

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Offline PowerSlave

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2017, 08:31:30 PM »
I started poking around online and found this article.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/slavery/experience/freedom/history.html

Hats off to Kev. I always love reading about history, and this definitely brought something to light that, I'm going to assume, most people have wrong (myself included).
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #38 on: August 14, 2017, 08:48:23 PM »
Correct, but slavery was very prominent in the north in the early stages of this country post-1776.

Totes my goats.

 :tup :tup

I started poking around online and found this article.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/slavery/experience/freedom/history.html

Hats off to Kev. I always love reading about history, and this definitely brought something to light that, I'm going to assume, most people have wrong (myself included).

I think some (not you) have deluded themselves into thinking "the north is and was always so enlightened, while the south is filled with nothing but backwards, racist hicks."

Offline portnoy311

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #39 on: August 14, 2017, 09:13:53 PM »
The other thing to remember is that the Confederate States of America was literally at war with the United States for 100% of its existence. The country was who the US fought in the bloodiest war in our history. Another reason honoring that history might be dubious.

Offline axeman90210

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #40 on: August 14, 2017, 09:29:33 PM »
My own thoughts on the ugliness from this weekend:

- I hope we can all at least agree that the ideology of the KKK/neo-nazis/white nationalists is absolutely reprehensible.

- I'm not going to pretend that every bout of violence was instigated by the right wing protesters, and those on the left who showed up and initiated violent conflict harmed rather than helped.

- That said, I didn't see anything that quite compared to that photo of a group of white supremacists beating a black man with pipes, let alone the vehicular manslaughter.

- I don't agree that all that we should just let them have their demonstration in peace. The Nazi party didn't spring up in Germany fully formed and with concentration camps ready to go. Years before they came to power they were holding demonstrations and rallies, and I'm sure there were plenty of Germans who thought they'd never move past the fringe. I don't mean to come off as hysterical, and I'm not saying we're getting ready to elect the second coming of Hitler to the White House, but if they're going to have public demonstrations I'm damn glad to see Americans showing up in greater numbers to reinforce that their beliefs are vile and antithetical to the character of our nation.

- I view Trump's "many sides" statement and inability to call out the white supremacists/alt-right specifically as a failure of leadership and a reinforcement of what many on the left said about him in the run up to the election as far as him and race relations. Any time a Muslim commits an attack abroad it triggers a tweetstorm about ISIS and radical Islamic terrorists. Here we have what Jeff Sessions called an act of domestic terrorism perpetuated by a white nationalist and the best he could do was talk about violence on many sides. David Duke (who Trump already had a hard time disavowing once) and others involved in the demonstrations talked about how they were trying to fulfill Donald Trump's vision, so clearly they take inspiration from his policies and his rhetoric. Given that, yeah, I think he needed to call them out. He needed to do it on Saturday though, not today.
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Offline portnoy311

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #41 on: August 14, 2017, 10:20:12 PM »
He just retweeted someone asking why the media doesn't cover violence in Chicago instead. Unreal.

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #42 on: August 14, 2017, 11:46:29 PM »
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Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #43 on: August 15, 2017, 06:39:30 AM »
My understanding is that a lot those confederate monuments or statues were put up like 50 or 60 years AFTER the civil war, by people who would have been much too young or not even born to fight in it and with the specific purpose of intimidating the black population of the Jim Crow south.

Offline TAC

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #44 on: August 15, 2017, 06:55:28 AM »
My understanding is that a lot those confederate monuments or statues were put up like 50 or 60 years AFTER the civil war, by people who would have been much too young or not even born to fight in it and with the specific purpose of intimidating the black population of the Jim Crow south.

Huh. Really?
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Offline axeman90210

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #45 on: August 15, 2017, 07:25:31 AM »
My understanding is that a lot those confederate monuments or statues were put up like 50 or 60 years AFTER the civil war, by people who would have been much too young or not even born to fight in it and with the specific purpose of intimidating the black population of the Jim Crow south.

Huh. Really?

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #46 on: August 15, 2017, 07:42:53 AM »
 In a way.........................................these monuments are the ultimate participation trophies.  :eek

Offline El Barto

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #47 on: August 15, 2017, 08:36:29 AM »
I think some (not you) have deluded themselves into thinking "the north is and was always so enlightened, while the south is filled with nothing but backwards, racist hicks."
I wouldn't put it quite so starkly, but from what I've seen people up North almost always see the civil war as 100% about slavery and reminders of it nothing but monuments from soar losers. Down here things seem to be a bit more nuanced. While there are certainly some racist assholes who celebrate Lee for the wrong reasons, they're the exception.

From my perspective, before he was turned into a political football, Lee was a complicated fellow. He was certainly a slave owner, but he didn't seem to share Lincoln's animosity towards the negro and his opinions on slavery as an institution were complex. Sadly, complexity and nuance are becoming as antiquated and obsolete as statues of the confederacy when it comes to discussions about race. There's simply no room for it in an increasingly dumbed down, binary discussion.

As for myself, I'm not in any position to judge Lee's attitude towards the races, but he certainly seemed to be on better footing than the so-called union heroes of the civil war. As far as I'm concerned his record before and after the war leave room for a bit of statuary regardless of assumptions about his attitudes on race. Before the war he was commandant of the US Military Academy at West Point. He served well for the Army in numerous battles. He turned Washington and Lee into a very successful university and something of a model to go forward. These sorts of things mean more to me than the simple bleating of "but, but, but, slavery!", stated without any reasonable context or rationale.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #48 on: August 15, 2017, 10:04:20 AM »
I generally have no problem with any group that wants to assemble, protest, convene, or do whatever they choose,  provided their intentions or actions do not result in destruction, violation of public rights-of-way, or any other direct or indirect impediments of anyone not involved.

So what if I peaceably, and within my rights, stage a demonstration where I proclaim the white race to be the one true race and all others are inferior and only fit to wash my shoes.   BUT the counter-demonstrators come and THAT gets violent, either amongst themselves or with my group?   

Look, we get to have contrary opinions.   I don't at all support the Nazi ideology (some of this isn't specifically "Nazi-ism", but I guess it gets the right hackles raised, so it's not going away anytime soon) but I do support someone's right to have that ideology.   The onus is on me, not to kill them, not to suppress them, not to deny them their rights, but to come up with cogent, reasonable, factually correct arguments why the Nazi ideology is narrow-minded, self-limiting, and not in keeping with science as we know it.   this notion that one side is "right" and one side is "wrong", is, to me, the absolute wrong way of going about this.   

Offline Stadler

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #49 on: August 15, 2017, 10:07:43 AM »
One of the interesting sides of this which gaining some attention today was the how the police chose to handle this. My understanding is that they essentially were acting like referees and only intervened as needed, otherwise they pretty much just let the whole thing act out. I have no problem with this approach.

And to think this was all about a stupid statue.

I don't know how much more they could have done to be honest. I wouldn't expect this guy to try to go in and preemptively shut these people down.


Why should he?  They have the right to peaceably assemble.   Yeah, we disagree with them, but so what?   Counter them with facts, with ideas and with truth.   



Offline Stadler

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #50 on: August 15, 2017, 10:13:49 AM »
That said, Trump's reaction to it was the most embarrassing thing I've ever seen out of an American president.  He truly is an abomination.

Why should he have done anything different?  If he calls THIS protest "domestic terrorism", then why weren't the liberal-based riots following the election also "domestic terrorism"?   This isn't about Trump's "failure" as a President, it's about not falling prey to PC requirements of faux outrage to preconceived evils.   These protestors are idiots.  They don't have one fact supporting their cause (I would bet my front row tix to Neal Morse and my meet and greet pass that the moron with the 82nd Airborne patch has NO FUCKING CLUE of the irony of his presentation).   

Counter bad ideas with good ones.   Denying that people exist, denying that people harbor unpopular ideas doesn't make them go away.  At least these people have the balls to stand there with no capes on or hoods or masks.  You KNOW that little smelly fucker is a racist, and can act appropriately.   We can now have a dialogue on WHY these people feel so frustrated (forget about emboldened; why do they feel so frustrated in the first place?) and can perhaps try to find a middle ground to deal with that.   

Offline Stadler

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #51 on: August 15, 2017, 10:17:40 AM »
So, nobody likes neo-nazis. They've got very little support amongst the general population which mostly sees them as a joke. So why provide them more attention than they deserve? Seems to me that the counter-protest was counter-productive. It turned the whole thing into the spectacle they needed. Had everybody just ignored those knuckleheads nothing would have come of this. I defend both sides' right to march, protest, whatever. At the same time because you can do something doesn't mean that you should, and those asshat Nazis should have been the only people in town that day.

Honestly, what did the counter-protesters hope to achieve? Bigger numbers? Let people know they disapprove of something damn near everybody else already does? Any escalation they provide to the Nazis only furthers their cause by giving them a bigger microphone. Next time they decide to rally at a park somewhere, the counter-protest should take place 10 miles away. The organization should be to make sure that everybody avoids the area, so the only people who see them are a bunch of board cops.

I used to live about three miles from the court house outside of which Larry Flynt was shot and paralyzed (and ultimately confined to the wheelchair he uses to this day).    The week before I moved into my house there, the Klan staged a rally on the grounds adjacent to that courthouse.    The police - my brother was on the job at that point - increased patrols, but there was little press, there was little outrage, and as a result, there was little controversy.  A handful of locals yelled and screamed under their hoods, and after a couple hours, it was all over and the jokes (at the Klan's expense) began. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #52 on: August 15, 2017, 10:24:45 AM »
So, nobody likes neo-nazis. They've got very little support amongst the general population which mostly sees them as a joke. So why provide them more attention than they deserve? Seems to me that the counter-protest was counter-productive. It turned the whole thing into the spectacle they needed. Had everybody just ignored those knuckleheads nothing would have come of this. I defend both sides' right to march, protest, whatever. At the same time because you can do something doesn't mean that you should, and those asshat Nazis should have been the only people in town that day.

Honestly, what did the counter-protesters hope to achieve? Bigger numbers? Let people know they disapprove of something damn near everybody else already does? Any escalation they provide to the Nazis only furthers their cause by giving them a bigger microphone. Next time they decide to rally at a park somewhere, the counter-protest should take place 10 miles away. The organization should be to make sure that everybody avoids the area, so the only people who see them are a bunch of board cops.

Spot. On.

I hear what you guys are saying, and all of me basically agrees. However, part of me is glad that people do this. I think it's important for the rest of the world, especially in today's political environment, to know that these people don't speak for this country, and there are many people in the US that seriously frown upon this behavior. If our own president won't denounce these groups, I'm glad someone else is.

I don't want other countries thinking that the majority of Americans are cool with this


But Chino, we can't put undue emphasis on this subjective, arbitrary, and transient "denouncement".  I don't want to be judged by someone else's arbitrary standard of what level of "denouncement" is enough.   I had family wiped out (in Poland) by Hitler's death squads.  I had two uncles land in Europe to (indirectly) try to save them, one in Normandy, and one in Italy.   I'm Catholic, but if you believe Ancestry.com, I have a non-negligible level of "Jew" in the family tree.   But I feel far more strongly about the rights and privileges of this country, that have survived for 240 years, and the right for these dirtbags to have contrary opinions, than I feel it necessary to state the glaringly obvious, and to put on faux piety and express a contrived outrage from my basement, wearing sweatpants and blaring Neal Morse records.   

I think Trump went far enough in his first statement.  I think his second statement came off contrived and forced (BECAUSE IT WAS), and at the end of the day... nothing has changed.  The people that hate him, hate him, and the people that support him, support him, and the people that are in between are still here with me, in between.   


Offline Stadler

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #53 on: August 15, 2017, 10:42:24 AM »
I don't believe that slavery was something that happened in the north. At least, I've never heard mention of it if it did. 

Did you skip history class in school? ;)

I admit that I very well could be missing/forgetting something that's obvious/common knowledge.

I do remember reading that it was legal for slave catchers from the south to cross borders into northern states to retrieve runaway slaves, but I don't remember seeing anything saying that it was legal in the north. Also, I think of the 3/5 compromise in the constitution as being a benefit to the south etc. etc...

The 3/5 compromise helped both sides.  It was not a judgment on the worth of the black man (as is often stated, wrongly, today) but rather a way of establishing representation.   When determining representation (number of Representatives in Congress, for example) the South wanted slaves to count man for man (they would get more reps that way).  The North didn't want them to count at all, on the grounds that if you didn't give them the rights and obligations under the Constitution, you shouldn't get the benefit of their presence in tallying the population for representation purposes.   The "3/5" was a way of bridging that gap.

Yes, the secession plans called for slavery to be a part of the new union, but the Founding Fathers had notoriously punted on the slavery issue, allowing that it was a problem, but understanding that there would be no union if it was made an issue, and the only way to RESOLVE the issue was to have a union.  It is a profound example of a Catch-22.   But the basis for slavery wasn't racism, or human rights, it was economic.   Only something like 10 to 20% of households owned  slaves.  They were expensive, and they were considered a taxable asset. There were even free Negro landowners in the south that owned slaves.    It is 240 years later and we see the difficulty in our farming enterprises being profitable; imagine 200 years ago, with the advent of the steam engine and the rest of the industrial revolution; slavery was very much a matter of survival for the Southern states.  The bigger issue was the idea of Federalism; that Washington could and did dictate the way of life for the given states... it was not an idea that swallowed easily. 

(And we wonder today about the power of our government, and issues like the Electoral College and what not.)



Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #54 on: August 15, 2017, 10:53:08 AM »
I really don't understand, just from a practical standpoint,  how one is supposed to camly and rationally point by point refute a bunch of dudes with torches shouting nazi slogans... 

Offline axeman90210

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #55 on: August 15, 2017, 10:54:38 AM »
That said, Trump's reaction to it was the most embarrassing thing I've ever seen out of an American president.  He truly is an abomination.

Why should he have done anything different?  If he calls THIS protest "domestic terrorism", then why weren't the liberal-based riots following the election also "domestic terrorism"?   This isn't about Trump's "failure" as a President, it's about not falling prey to PC requirements of faux outrage to preconceived evils.   These protestors are idiots.  They don't have one fact supporting their cause (I would bet my front row tix to Neal Morse and my meet and greet pass that the moron with the 82nd Airborne patch has NO FUCKING CLUE of the irony of his presentation).   

Two things I would say. One, unless I'm failing to remember something, none of those post election protests featured anyone deliberately murdering anyone. A US citizen was murdered by a homegrown extremist. Especially given Trump's rhetoric against radical Islamic terrorism, failing to specifically call out these groups reeks of "it's only terrorism when brown people do it". Two, there are quotes from these people saying they were doing it to fulfill his vision, or something to that effect. Basically they think he's on their side. Given that shouldn't he make it clear that isn't the case.

Honestly, it's very much exacerbated by what he did as a candidate in a way that for many confirms fears about what kind of person/leader he was. He *did* do things on the campaign trail to give credence to the white nationalist movement (initially fail to disavow David Duke, give a press pass and interview access with one of his kids at one of his rallies to the host of a KKK/white supremacist podcast, use graphics/memes that were overtly or covertly racist and originated from one of the cesspools of the internet where these people congregate). He did have no problem calling out terrorist groups when the perpetrators were muslim.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #56 on: August 15, 2017, 11:42:59 AM »
I really don't understand, just from a practical standpoint,  how one is supposed to camly and rationally point by point refute a bunch of dudes with torches shouting nazi slogans...
For one thing, why would you feel the need to? Would you want to calmly go point by point with a hysterical child about why she can't a pony, or would you rather wait until she's not acting like a rotten little shit? But more to the point, sometimes it's better to let nimrods collapse under their own stupidity. I saw Roger Waters last month, and he did something quite clever. Not once did he say anything about Trump. The only direct reference was the "TRUMP IS A PIG" message at the end of Pigs (and I still maintain that he's a Dog, BTW). What he did do was show lots of Trump quotes. Quotes that, as so many of his do, make him look like a complete idiot. Roger didn't need to badmouth Trump because Trump does such a bang-up job on his own. I'd say the same about the Nazi nimrods.

Simply put, you're not going to convince any of these people that they're wrong, and the attempt is only going to empower them.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #57 on: August 15, 2017, 02:16:13 PM »
Looks like the cops declined to intervene in the toppling of the statue yesterday, but got video of everybody involved, who are now facing felony charges. Personally, I approve. Yet I suspect we're going to hear a ton of defense about prosecuting good people who only wanted to fight racism. You can hear the victim card approaching quickly. Man, I really hate being on the side of defending Clansmen and Nazis, but the opposite side is so fucking stupid I can't really defend them, either. And yet so few are willing to hear an argument that they're all a bunch of shitheads. 
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #58 on: August 15, 2017, 02:21:19 PM »
That said, Trump's reaction to it was the most embarrassing thing I've ever seen out of an American president.  He truly is an abomination.

Why should he have done anything different?  If he calls THIS protest "domestic terrorism", then why weren't the liberal-based riots following the election also "domestic terrorism"?   This isn't about Trump's "failure" as a President, it's about not falling prey to PC requirements of faux outrage to preconceived evils.   These protestors are idiots.  They don't have one fact supporting their cause (I would bet my front row tix to Neal Morse and my meet and greet pass that the moron with the 82nd Airborne patch has NO FUCKING CLUE of the irony of his presentation).   

Two things I would say. One, unless I'm failing to remember something, none of those post election protests featured anyone deliberately murdering anyone. A US citizen was murdered by a homegrown extremist. Especially given Trump's rhetoric against radical Islamic terrorism, failing to specifically call out these groups reeks of "it's only terrorism when brown people do it". Two, there are quotes from these people saying they were doing it to fulfill his vision, or something to that effect. Basically they think he's on their side. Given that shouldn't he make it clear that isn't the case.

But for.  There was violence in those riots, and but for the fact that no one ACTUALLY died from it, we get to give them a pass?   

This logic of "Trump has to disavow" is ridiculous, I'm sorry.   Jodie Foster is not at all accountable when John Hinkley cites her as a rationale for his evil deeds.   

I get it, I do.  If there is a consistency issue, Trump has to account for that.  HE should be answering these questions, not me, and explaining his rationale.   If it bears scrutiny, then so be it, if not he should be accountable.

Quote
Honestly, it's very much exacerbated by what he did as a candidate in a way that for many confirms fears about what kind of person/leader he was. He *did* do things on the campaign trail to give credence to the white nationalist movement (initially fail to disavow David Duke, give a press pass and interview access with one of his kids at one of his rallies to the host of a KKK/white supremacist podcast, use graphics/memes that were overtly or covertly racist and originated from one of the cesspools of the internet where these people congregate). He did have no problem calling out terrorist groups when the perpetrators were muslim.

This is an impossible conversation.  You're (and not "you", I mean generally those criticizing Trump) are using a tautology.   You can't say he has to disavow this stuff, because he didn't disavow last time and some how this is a result of that.  "Disavowing" has nothing to do with it.  Presidents have been doing this PC response dance for decades and where are we?  We're STILL talking about this stuff.  We've been trying to ignore this heinous stuff and sweep it under the rug and pretend - like the press is now in the Trump press conference (one female reporter is trying to get Trump to say that the "alt-Left" is on the "same moral plane" as the "alt-Right" and her tone is so crystal clear - that there is no fucking way that they can possibly be on the "same moral plane" - as to be sickening; extremism is extremism, and we should view ALL extremism with skepticism) - that this stuff doesn't exist and shouldn't be talked about, and yet it gets worse and worse.    Most of these people don't want to have Hitler back, ddon't want to have a "white America"; they just don't want to be called stupid or deplorable.   

Offline Adami

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #59 on: August 15, 2017, 02:21:58 PM »
Looks like the cops declined to intervene in the toppling of the statue yesterday, but got video of everybody involved, who are now facing felony charges. Personally, I approve. Yet I suspect we're going to hear a ton of defense about prosecuting good people who only wanted to fight racism. You can hear the victim card approaching quickly. Man, I really hate being on the side of defending Clansmen and Nazis, but the opposite side is so fucking stupid I can't really defend them, either. And yet so few are willing to hear an argument that they're all a bunch of shitheads.

It's interesting. Did we consider the people who toppled Saddam's statues to be vandals or people celebrating their liberation? Same in tons of other countries.

Not taking sides on this specific issue, just pointing out that it's pretty different when it's your country vs. another country.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #60 on: August 15, 2017, 02:22:37 PM »
Looks like the cops declined to intervene in the toppling of the statue yesterday, but got video of everybody involved, who are now facing felony charges. Personally, I approve. Yet I suspect we're going to hear a ton of defense about prosecuting good people who only wanted to fight racism. You can hear the victim card approaching quickly. Man, I really hate being on the side of defending Clansmen and Nazis, but the opposite side is so fucking stupid I can't really defend them, either. And yet so few are willing to hear an argument that they're all a bunch of shitheads.

WORD.

Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #61 on: August 15, 2017, 02:25:37 PM »
Quote
Most of these people don't want to have Hitler back, ddon't want to have a "white America"; they just don't want to be called stupid or deplorable.   

Wait, who are you even talking about here?  THEY HAD ACTUAL SWASTIKAS

Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #62 on: August 15, 2017, 02:33:15 PM »
Looks like the cops declined to intervene in the toppling of the statue yesterday, but got video of everybody involved, who are now facing felony charges. Personally, I approve. Yet I suspect we're going to hear a ton of defense about prosecuting good people who only wanted to fight racism. You can hear the victim card approaching quickly. Man, I really hate being on the side of defending Clansmen and Nazis, but the opposite side is so fucking stupid I can't really defend them, either. And yet so few are willing to hear an argument that they're all a bunch of shitheads.

I don't mind people toppling statues (I know it's easy for me to say)  but I also have no problem with them facing the consequences of vandalism,  as long as the punishment fits the crime. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #63 on: August 15, 2017, 02:35:13 PM »
Quote
Most of these people don't want to have Hitler back, ddon't want to have a "white America"; they just don't want to be called stupid or deplorable.   

Wait, who are you even talking about here?  THEY HAD ACTUAL SWASTIKAS

Okay, so?  Those people are nuts.  What are you hoping for me to say?  You want a platitude about how "heinous" they are, because they have a different idea of society than you or I have?  What does that do?  It stokes the fire.   

If every time I disagreed with you I responded to one of your posts with "Listen, you stupid deplorable dumbass crazy-ass fuck.  Just shut up, keep quiet, and agree with me, because I have numbers on my side, bitch."   How effective is that debate going to be? 

They don't have enough political will to win a free cup of coffee at Dunkin' Donuts, and yet the liberal media has now given them almost a week of free publicity, pictures all over the goddamn place, most importantly a CAUSE TO FIGHT FOR (the oppression of their rights by big gubmint and the libtard media*), and metaphorical bullhorn to spew their hate through.


*I'm making a point here.

Offline Adami

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #64 on: August 15, 2017, 03:05:12 PM »
Does simply ignoring hate always work though? As someone else pointed out, the original Nazis were simply ignored and tolerated as well. It's not black and white.

This isn't the case of 4-5 people, this is thousands if not more. Their numbers don't suddenly shrink if we ignore them. Although I agree that violence is never the answer and don't believe they should ever be fought with violence.

I just think it's easy for people, especially those whom these groups have no issues with, to simply look the other way, while others, with whom these groups pose an actual threat, might not be able to do so easily.
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Offline Cable

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #65 on: August 15, 2017, 03:08:01 PM »
Does simply ignoring hate always work though? As someone else pointed out, the original Nazis were simply ignored and tolerated as well. It's not black and white.

This isn't the case of 4-5 people, this is thousands if not more. Their numbers don't suddenly shrink if we ignore them. Although I agree that violence is never the answer and don't believe they should ever be fought with violence.

I just think it's easy for people, especially those whom these groups have no issues with, to simply look the other way, while others, with whom these groups pose an actual threat, might not be able to do so easily.


Yup, Kershaw's famous statement of "the road to Auschwitz was built by hate, but paved with indifference."
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Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #66 on: August 15, 2017, 03:23:48 PM »

I just think it's easy for people, especially those whom these groups have no issues with, to simply look the other way, while others, with whom these groups pose an actual threat, might not be able to do so easily.

very well said   :tup

Offline TAC

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #67 on: August 15, 2017, 03:29:53 PM »
I still cannot believe that "white supremacy" and the KKK are even things. I guess I'm dumb.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #68 on: August 15, 2017, 03:31:18 PM »
These particular Nazis are neither tolerated nor accepted. They're mostly loathed by the overwhelming majority of citizens. I'm not suggesting that apathy or indifference is the solution. I'm suggesting that not giving voice to them is. Would we rather that they simmer and stew in their backyard fallout shelters or become a cause in the national spotlight?  All the last week has done was move them to the forefront of national attention and now they're going to milk it for everything it's worth. People are researching them. They're discussing their beliefs. Progressive nimrods are exposing themselves. While I think it's a damn shame, they got pitched a slow ball right over the plate and turned it into a 3-run moonshot, and they're clamoring for another at bat in the coming weeks. Which of course they'll get. Counter-protests will doubt in size now. Fascists will wear their shit-eating grins and progressive will wring their hands at how awful it all is and make bad Hitler analogies.

Stage your counter-protests. Just put it 10 miles away. Get news coverage of your thousands of people and make sure that if the Nazis get any coverage at all it just looks like a hundred dorks trying to look significant.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #69 on: August 15, 2017, 03:34:13 PM »
Sometimes. Look at Westboro. There's counter protests to them all the time, and they're not getting more popular.

It sounds really nice to assume that ignoring them will make them dissolve, but honestly that's just not how these things work. It makes them try harder and recruit more. Plus, the cultural zeitgeist right now really breeds a lot of those sentiments. So they're not going to fizzle out. They're going to get bigger either way. And if ignored, they can more subtly infiltrate higher society and become more powerful.
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