Author Topic: Racial tension ramping up....  (Read 2805 times)

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Offline Nekov

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #105 on: August 16, 2017, 06:54:27 AM »

What's "normalized"?   Who has "normalized" Nazi-ism?    Allowing someone their rights to express themselves doesn't in and of itself "normalize" the content of that speech.   "Normalization" happens individually.   

What's a shock to me is how readily we are to trample on people's constitutional rights to peaceably demonstrate, and to hold a contrary view just because we don't like the message. 

So you think it's ok for people to propagate hate speech?These people were holding flags from a regime that killed millions of people because of their religion, becuase of their skin color, because they didn't think the same way the leaders did. So it's not like people are against this because it's contrary to their beliefs. As Adami pointed out before, tolerating this kind of thing doesn't make it go away but only makes these people feel more empowered to do so and spread their message of hate. And sure as hell Trump should have condemned this, because by not doing it a lot of people now think it's ok to spread that hate. And yes, there's lots of people that will think this is disgusting,  but there are others who might think similarly and join the movemet, which again, won't make them go away.

I believe in the power of ideas, I believe in the power of debate, and I believe, ultimately, that racism will be defeated by peaceful means, through every person doing their best each day to live a race-free life.   

That's very nice but how will you do that if you let these kind of people influence others? How is racism going to dissapear when you let people be openly racist and say it's ok because it's their right to be so? And please be honest, do you really think you could sit down with those guys and by the power of your ideas and your debate skills be able to show them that being racist is wrong?
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #106 on: August 16, 2017, 07:00:59 AM »
So what would YOU say Stadler if you met one those Nazis face to face?   You'd chit chat over tea and and crumpet and say he makes some good points?

For the record, Stadler and I disagree on a ton of stuff and we got along in a parking lot just fine (I think).

You don't think, you know.   I'm looking forward to the next one, frankly.   

As for the deleted post from XeRocks81, I don't know.  That's one option.   I don't usually talk politics in strange situations with people I don't know, but there's a 100 ways to handle that, and very few of them involve taking a club and hitting them for having a different idea.    I'm not perfect, and I'm not immune - I've only punched one person since I was 18 that wasn't on a hockey rink, and it was a scumbag that referred to my friend as "n*****".   Not proud of it, and I feel like I was no better than him at the end of the day, even if it meant something to my friend (who, it turns out, never heard the slur to start with).   

Funny though; I'm supposedly the "arch conservative" and the "Trump guy" (NOT!!!), but I have to DIFFUSE violence more often than I have to get into it with people.  I tell the story often about being in my local bar in Philly, and mentioning how I wasn't impressed with either Obama or McCain, and joking whether I could get four more of Bush (this was around the time of the first Obama election; probably around August or so of 2008) and this kid with his big glasses (the kind that Zoe Deschanel wears on "New Girl" and that no one wears unless they are making a fashion statement) and his man-purse and his trendy faux military jacket got all up in my grill about how I could ever support that murderer and war criminal, and he pushed me into the bar.  I'm not that big - 5'8", 230 at the time - and I had three inches and about 70 pounds on this kid, and I calmly went around him, sat down in his booth, and said, "Sit down, junior." and I sat down with him and his friends and explained my comment.  We weren't magically friends, and we didn't solve world peace, but it diffused whatever violence was there.   I know I didn't change his mind, but I don't know if I gave him anything to think about or not.   Who knows?  My mission isn't to get people to think like me.  It's to get them thinking, period.  They'll come to whatever the right answer is over time (as will I, since I know for a fact - I'm human - that I don't have it all right). 

Online antigoon

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #107 on: August 16, 2017, 07:14:18 AM »
the "alt left" is not a real thing, by the way.

Offline Chino

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #108 on: August 16, 2017, 07:16:06 AM »
the "alt left" is not a real thing, by the way.

[Serious] Why not? We use alt-right to describe people on the right that go to the extremes, what makes you think similar people don't exist on the left? I keep hearing "trump just made that phrase up. It's not real". Well, I never heard "alt-right" until kind of recently. Someone had to just make that up at some point, yet it's considered real.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #109 on: August 16, 2017, 07:20:08 AM »

What's "normalized"?   Who has "normalized" Nazi-ism?    Allowing someone their rights to express themselves doesn't in and of itself "normalize" the content of that speech.   "Normalization" happens individually.   

What's a shock to me is how readily we are to trample on people's constitutional rights to peaceably demonstrate, and to hold a contrary view just because we don't like the message. 

So you think it's ok for people to propagate hate speech?These people were holding flags from a regime that killed millions of people because of their religion, becuase of their skin color, because they didn't think the same way the leaders did. So it's not like people are against this because it's contrary to their beliefs. As Adami pointed out before, tolerating this kind of thing doesn't make it go away but only makes these people feel more empowered to do so and spread their message of hate. And sure as hell Trump should have condemned this, because by not doing it a lot of people now think it's ok to spread that hate. And yes, there's lots of people that will think this is disgusting,  but there are others who might think similarly and join the movemet, which again, won't make them go away.

I disagree.   They feel empowered when they get a rise out of the "n***** loving, J** led media" and all the "libtards that follow that NL,JL media".    You're playing right into their hands.

I don't condone propagating hate speech.  That's not hate speech, though.   You don't like it, it embodies "hate", but it's not "hate speech".   Not my law, not my determination, but the law of the land.   I've already said; I find it abhorrent.  I lost family in a camp in Poland.  I get it. 

But your logic is not sound.   How come someone says "I hate blacks!" and magically it transforms people into raving monsters, and corrupts minds and breeds hate and fosters war and blah blah blah, but it's dismissed as petty bigoted bullshit when the protestors say that "promoting marijuana will turn our kids into drug addicts".   I don't at all believe that just by saying it it renders all this power.  They are still BAD ideas.   


Quote
I believe in the power of ideas, I believe in the power of debate, and I believe, ultimately, that racism will be defeated by peaceful means, through every person doing their best each day to live a race-free life.   

That's very nice but how will you do that if you let these kind of people influence others? How is racism going to dissapear when you let people be openly racist and say it's ok because it's their right to be so? And please be honest, do you really think you could sit down with those guys and by the power of your ideas and your debate skills be able to show them that being racist is wrong?

"Let them influence others"?   What, are people hypmotized sheep that can't form a coherent thought for themselves?   Do you honestly think there are millions of people sitting at home saying "you know, honey, I think that guy with the no teeth and the pretty flag has a point.  Kids, whaddya say, want to kill some immigrants next vacation?"    Racism, I believe, WILL disappear if you let those ideas out in the sunlight (I question the use of the word "be"; what does that mean?  I'm not advocating letting them kill minorities or take action that deprives someone else of their rights). 

I don't at all think that I could sit down with them and "show them that being a racist is wrong".  So what?  That's not the point.   My job isn't to get the entire population to think like me.  If someone wants to be a racist, that's their business, and I'm not really that interested in changing them.  What I would hope to do is to touch that next wave, that wave that doesn't take what the generation that came before says on faith, but has to figure it out for themselves, and give them the chance to hear both ideas.   Not only, in my view, does the racist viewpoint not hold water, but it makes the NON racist viewpoint make more sense.   

I don't get this mindset that says "all bad things are like plague and we have to snuff them out, because even mentioning them will breed more of it!" but kind of ignores that there are exponentially more people preaching the good side and it's not eradicating the plagues.  I'm in the middle of "The Order of the Phoenix" right now, and I can't help but think that J.K. Rowling was on to something when she had every character say "You Know Who" and cringe when someone said "Voldemort", but Dumbledore and Harry Potter - not at all coincidentally the two that did the most to actually STOP Voldemort - were the only two characters to refuse to use the euphemism. 

Online antigoon

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #110 on: August 16, 2017, 07:20:41 AM »
Quote
[Serious] Why not? We use alt-right to describe people on the right that go to the extremes, what makes you think similar people don't exist on the left? I keep hearing "trump just made that phrase up. It's not real". Well, I never heard "alt-right" until kind of recently. Someone had to just make that up at some point, yet it's considered real.


people have been self-identifying as alt-right for a while now. It's a specific term those guys chose for themselves that has meaning. "alt-left" started as a smear by centrist democrats against people to the left and now Trump is using it. Also there's no equivalence between white supremacists and what...people who want single payer and state-funded higher-education? C'mon.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 07:28:00 AM by antigoon »

Offline Stadler

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #111 on: August 16, 2017, 07:20:53 AM »
the "alt left" is not a real thing, by the way.

[Serious] Why not? We use alt-right to describe people on the right that go to the extremes, what makes you think similar people don't exist on the left? I keep hearing "trump just made that phrase up. It's not real". Well, I never heard "alt-right" until kind of recently. Someone had to just make that up at some point, yet it's considered real.

Exactly. 

Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #112 on: August 16, 2017, 07:27:13 AM »
Quote
[Serious] Why not? We use alt-right to describe people on the right that go to the extremes, what makes you think similar people don't exist on the left? I keep hearing "trump just made that phrase up. It's not real". Well, I never heard "alt-right" until kind of recently. Someone had to just make that up at some point, yet it's considered real.


people have been self-identifying as alt-right for a while now. It's a specific term those guys chose for themselves that has meaning. "alt-left" started as a smear by centrist democrats against people to the left and now Trump is using it. Also there's no equivocation between white supremacists and what...people who want single payer and state-funded higher-education? C'mon.

thank you

Offline Stadler

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #113 on: August 16, 2017, 07:38:08 AM »
Quote
[Serious] Why not? We use alt-right to describe people on the right that go to the extremes, what makes you think similar people don't exist on the left? I keep hearing "trump just made that phrase up. It's not real". Well, I never heard "alt-right" until kind of recently. Someone had to just make that up at some point, yet it's considered real.


people have been self-identifying as alt-right for a while now. It's a specific term those guys chose for themselves that has meaning. "alt-left" started as a smear by centrist democrats against people to the left and now Trump is using it. Also there's no equivalence between white supremacists and what...people who want single payer and state-funded higher-education? C'mon.

Don't simplify it down to where it seems to be a "logical fallacy".   I'm for single-payer for god's sake, and I'm not exactly the poster boy for "alt-Left".    Extremism of all forms embodies the emphasis on the rights of the subject group over the rights of the collective.   The alt-right wants to assert their rights to the detriment of minorities.   You're kidding yourself if you don't believe that the alt-left is doing the exact same thing in a different context.  Your earnings? Fuck that, you have no earnings.  They go to the collective.    Your right to free think?  Fuck that, you have to abide by the agenda of the identity politics du jour.   Your right to the pursuit of happiness?  Fuck that, the state owns your business.     Don't try to convince us with a straight face that no one has ever died as a result of the socialist exertion of power.   

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #114 on: August 16, 2017, 07:43:24 AM »

Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #115 on: August 16, 2017, 07:59:18 AM »


Don't simplify it down to where it seems to be a "logical fallacy".

   


Your earnings? Fuck that, you have no earnings.  They go to the collective.    Your right to free think?  Fuck that, you have to abide by the agenda of the identity politics du jour.   Your right to the pursuit of happiness?  Fuck that, the state owns your business.   

If that's your idea of rational discourse,  then you're not much better than what you accuse us of being.

Offline Nekov

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #116 on: August 16, 2017, 08:01:51 AM »

Quote
I believe in the power of ideas, I believe in the power of debate, and I believe, ultimately, that racism will be defeated by peaceful means, through every person doing their best each day to live a race-free life.   

That's very nice but how will you do that if you let these kind of people influence others? How is racism going to dissapear when you let people be openly racist and say it's ok because it's their right to be so? And please be honest, do you really think you could sit down with those guys and by the power of your ideas and your debate skills be able to show them that being racist is wrong?

"Let them influence others"?  What, are people hypmotized sheep that can't form a coherent thought for themselves?   Do you honestly think there are millions of people sitting at home saying "you know, honey, I think that guy with the no teeth and the pretty flag has a point.  Kids, whaddya say, want to kill some immigrants next vacation?"    Racism, I believe, WILL disappear if you let those ideas out in the sunlight (I question the use of the word "be"; what does that mean?  I'm not advocating letting them kill minorities or take action that deprives someone else of their rights). 


Actually I do, not millions but surely a couple thousand. And I think you are assuming that because you are able to form coherent thoughts for yourself that everyone else is but that is not the case. Not everyone has had an education where they were taught to think things through with logic. There are people that have grown in places where school is not an option, where the people that surround them are the same people that were participating in that "protest". There are lots of people out there that are prone to being influenced or that just want to be a part of something bigger than themselves and will find exactly that when looking at these people.
And this doesn't just impact people who can't form a thought for themselves, there are lots of people out there that think that same way but are not vocal about it becuase they know that society will condemn them and now they are being invited to be outspoken when it comes to hate. Or even someone might be on the edge, not clearly knowing where to stand and seeing these people and this message might push them to the hate side. Again, the fact that this is not the case for you doesn't mean that those people don't exist.

I don't condone propagating hate speech.  That's not hate speech, though.   You don't like it, it embodies "hate", but it's not "hate speech".   Not my law, not my determination, but the law of the land.   I've already said; I find it abhorrent.  I lost family in a camp in Poland.  I get it

If you find it abhorrent then why do you defend it the way it is right now? I get that free speech is something that is necessary, but don't you think that when it comes to hate and harming of others there should be something there to prevent it? I know it's the law, but the fact that it's a law doesn't make it right. Law is not perfect, there's a reason it's changed all the time.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #117 on: August 16, 2017, 08:14:54 AM »


Don't simplify it down to where it seems to be a "logical fallacy".

   


Your earnings? Fuck that, you have no earnings.  They go to the collective.    Your right to free think?  Fuck that, you have to abide by the agenda of the identity politics du jour.   Your right to the pursuit of happiness?  Fuck that, the state owns your business.   

If that's your idea of rational discourse,  then you're not much better than what you accuse us of being.

It's not my idea of "rational discourse".   I just wrote two pages of cogent, reasonable (not to say "right") rational discourse.   I use a little hyperbole to reinforce the idea that under a socialist regime it's not a choice, and that the concept of "rights" is a joke to be dismissed by the government, and you're going to call me on that?   


Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #118 on: August 16, 2017, 08:30:47 AM »
Until Trump said it yesterday, I'd never heard the term Alt-left.  And the counter-protesters didn't drive a car through a crowd of the "protestors".  However, yes... extremism is bad regardless of the direction it flows to.

I'm scared.  I'm literally scared for the path that North American (because what happens into the US affects Canada a shit-ton) society is on.  There's just too much in some of these posts that I can't believe I'm reading.  Sure, it takes 'two to tango'.  So what... no one should oppose anything?  By that logic, the US is holds culpability in Korea, Vietnam, Nicaragua, Afghanistan, on and on.  Would it have been better just to sit idly by?  It's ok when the US gov't organizes violence and stands up to a differing position, or potential attack on western way of life, but when citizens do it themselves, POTUS has the audacity to call them out as the problem as much the instigators?  Ya know, that rape victim was extremely violent to scratch and claw at the eyes of her attacker.   ::)

As for normalizing, Trump's behaviour has been normalized by his base and Republicans so much that by saying it isn't normalized just proves that it's the new norm.  Anyone who thinks his statements yesterday are anything but abhorrent and reprehensible has accepted this as a new norm.  To so voraciously oppose certain acts of terrorism, but then borderline condone others is mind-boggling; to claim facts were needed before a statement could be issued when that's never been the case before is laughable; to talk about ones own house and winery in the face of these events is mind-boggling.

Hypnotized sheep... no most are not.  But you're kidding yourself if you don't think there is a meaningful number of people that have beliefs leaning towards the extreme right who will surely be influenced by the recent events.  If there was a strong, absolute, and consistent message of opposition of these beliefs, then perhaps they wouldn't be further swayed.

Extreme socialism... sure, those beliefs are and should be concerning.  However, when was the last time a "protest" was staged from that position (in the US) like we saw this weekend?  When was the last time that anyone had REAL concern for their safety and well-being because of extreme socialists?

Stadler... say it all you want, state your family history all you want... I don't believe that you do get it.  If you consider "Jews will not replace us" free speech, that's fucked up.  That is hate speech.  Watch the video of the dude with the "Radical Agenda" tee-shirt. 

--> "I don't think that you could feel the way about race that I do and watch that Kushner bastard walk around with that beautiful girl"

Spreading those beliefs constitutes "free speech"?

Sadly, this will change nothing politically.  If Sandy Hook showed anything, it's that nothing changes politically.  My only hope is that we've taught enough morality in younger generations that they can and will raise their voices and drown out the extremism.  But that's going to take a time.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #119 on: August 16, 2017, 08:34:51 AM »

Quote
I believe in the power of ideas, I believe in the power of debate, and I believe, ultimately, that racism will be defeated by peaceful means, through every person doing their best each day to live a race-free life.   

That's very nice but how will you do that if you let these kind of people influence others? How is racism going to dissapear when you let people be openly racist and say it's ok because it's their right to be so? And please be honest, do you really think you could sit down with those guys and by the power of your ideas and your debate skills be able to show them that being racist is wrong?

"Let them influence others"?  What, are people hypmotized sheep that can't form a coherent thought for themselves?   Do you honestly think there are millions of people sitting at home saying "you know, honey, I think that guy with the no teeth and the pretty flag has a point.  Kids, whaddya say, want to kill some immigrants next vacation?"    Racism, I believe, WILL disappear if you let those ideas out in the sunlight (I question the use of the word "be"; what does that mean?  I'm not advocating letting them kill minorities or take action that deprives someone else of their rights). 


Actually I do, not millions but surely a couple thousand. And I think you are assuming that because you are able to form coherent thoughts for yourself that everyone else is but that is not the case. Not everyone has had an education where they were taught to think things through with logic. There are people that have grown in places where school is not an option, where the people that surround them are the same people that were participating in that "protest". There are lots of people out there that are prone to being influenced or that just want to be a part of something bigger than themselves and will find exactly that when looking at these people.
And this doesn't just impact people who can't form a thought for themselves, there are lots of people out there that think that same way but are not vocal about it becuase they know that society will condemn them and now they are being invited to be outspoken when it comes to hate. Or even someone might be on the edge, not clearly knowing where to stand and seeing these people and this message might push them to the hate side. Again, the fact that this is not the case for you doesn't mean that those people don't exist.

But Nekov, why are we all of a sudden worried about "people" and there ability to make cogent decisions?   Why weren't we worried about that when we're discussing the popular vote in 2016?  Why weren't we worried about that when people were voting for Obama (or Bush, or Clinton, or Bush Sr.)?  I don't at all buy in to that "deplorable" mentality; that some of our population is "deplorable" and we have to save them.  For me, I don't view the racist - who wrongly believes that blacks are inferior (a mistake of fact) - any differently than the person that wrongly believes that taxing the rich is a reasonably, reliable, rational solution to paying for programs we CANNOT afford (also a mistake of fact).  I don't see any difference between the person that wrongly believes that the Jews control "all the money" (a mistake of fact) and the person that wrongly believes that banning guns will reduce violent crime (a mistake of fact).  It's still ignorance. 

Quote
I don't condone propagating hate speech.  That's not hate speech, though.   You don't like it, it embodies "hate", but it's not "hate speech".   Not my law, not my determination, but the law of the land.   I've already said; I find it abhorrent.  I lost family in a camp in Poland.  I get it

If you find it abhorrent then why do you defend it the way it is right now? I get that free speech is something that is necessary, but don't you think that when it comes to hate and harming of others there should be something there to prevent it? I know it's the law, but the fact that it's a law doesn't make it right. Law is not perfect, there's a reason it's changed all the time.

Because the law isn't based on "what Stadler thinks is abhorrent"!  Or any one person.   I'm a pretty open minded guy, but there's a lot sexually I find "abhorrent".   It's not my call what someone does with another consenting human being.  I find abortion "abhorrent", and yet I am adamantly pro-choice.   

Specific point, though:  I separate "hate" and "harming others".   I'm not at all advocating any action that would be a crime under other circumstances.  I don't agree that "offending someone" is necessarily "harm".  I don't have a right to not be "offended".   Someone saying they hate me, because I'm Polish, or Catholic or white, or male... it's offensive, but I am not "harmed".   If I'm beaten because I'm any of those things, then all bets are off, no question.   I'm not advocating violence in any way (and in fact, I would hope you'd get from this exactly the opposite).   

Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #120 on: August 16, 2017, 08:38:29 AM »
Quote
For me, I don't view the racist - who wrongly believes that blacks are inferior (a mistake of fact) - any differently than the person that wrongly believes that taxing the rich is a reasonably, reliable, rational solution to paying for programs we CANNOT afford (also a mistake of fact).  I don't see any difference between the person that wrongly believes that the Jews control "all the money" (a mistake of fact) and the person that wrongly believes that banning guns will reduce violent crime (a mistake of fact).  It's still ignorance. 

That's... It's like you live on a different planet than I do.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #121 on: August 16, 2017, 08:40:33 AM »
So you think it's ok for people to propagate hate speech?

I can't speak for Stadler, but I will answer for myself:  Absolutely, unequivocally, YES.  The freedom of speech doesn't exist to protect speech everyone agrees is good and inoffensive.  It exists to protect that speech that offends somebody, even if it offense pretty much EVERYBODY.  I don't like it.  But when we get into the business of censoring one group because we don't like the message, there is nothing to prevent the government from censoring our own message because someone else deems it offensive.  So, yes, I do very much think it is okay for people to propagate "hate speech." 

...but there are others who might think similarly and join the movemet, which again, won't make them go away.

...That's very nice but how will you do that if you let these kind of people influence others? How is racism going to dissapear when you let people be openly racist and say it's ok because it's their right to be so?

But there is NO WAY to make them go away.  Racism and other ugly ideas will ALWAYS exist, and it is naïve to think otherwise.  I'm not saying we throw up our hands and accept it.  Civilized society should NOT accept it.  But the goal isn't and shouldn't be to "make it go away" because that isn't realistic.  The goal should be to dissuade as many people as possible from it to keep it from actually harming (which is not the same thing as "keep it from actually offending) others. 

And a second point, which is similar to the point above about speech in general (in fact, it is actually the same point, but has application here):  Once government or society makes it its business to "make [offensive group X] go away," we have crossed a dangerous line that should never be crossed, because the moment you believe or espouse something that is offensive to someone, they now have the power to make your group "go away."
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Offline Cable

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #122 on: August 16, 2017, 08:50:35 AM »
Quote
[Serious] Why not? We use alt-right to describe people on the right that go to the extremes, what makes you think similar people don't exist on the left? I keep hearing "trump just made that phrase up. It's not real". Well, I never heard "alt-right" until kind of recently. Someone had to just make that up at some point, yet it's considered real.


people have been self-identifying as alt-right for a while now. It's a specific term those guys chose for themselves that has meaning. "alt-left" started as a smear by centrist democrats against people to the left and now Trump is using it. Also there's no equivalence between white supremacists and what...people who want single payer and state-funded higher-education? C'mon.

Don't simplify it down to where it seems to be a "logical fallacy".   I'm for single-payer for god's sake, and I'm not exactly the poster boy for "alt-Left".    Extremism of all forms embodies the emphasis on the rights of the subject group over the rights of the collective.   The alt-right wants to assert their rights to the detriment of minorities.   You're kidding yourself if you don't believe that the alt-left is doing the exact same thing in a different context.  Your earnings? Fuck that, you have no earnings.  They go to the collective.    Your right to free think?  Fuck that, you have to abide by the agenda of the identity politics du jour.   Your right to the pursuit of happiness?  Fuck that, the state owns your business.     Don't try to convince us with a straight face that no one has ever died as a result of the socialist exertion of power.


Communism, in the original form, is a worker-class initiated and driven uprising. This has never happened in "communist" regimes, nor is it likely. Your over-exaggerations as you call them strike a 1984, or McCarthy era fear of what is not true of the original ideology.




Don't simplify it down to where it seems to be a "logical fallacy".

   


Your earnings? Fuck that, you have no earnings.  They go to the collective.    Your right to free think?  Fuck that, you have to abide by the agenda of the identity politics du jour.   Your right to the pursuit of happiness?  Fuck that, the state owns your business.   

If that's your idea of rational discourse,  then you're not much better than what you accuse us of being.

It's not my idea of "rational discourse".   I just wrote two pages of cogent, reasonable (not to say "right") rational discourse.   I use a little hyperbole to reinforce the idea that under a socialist regime it's not a choice, and that the concept of "rights" is a joke to be dismissed by the government, and you're going to call me on that?


Socialism is established in a democratic manner.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

Which is no different than how our two parties are democratically elected, and then we have no direct say in their actions.
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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #123 on: August 16, 2017, 08:52:01 AM »
So, yes, I do very much think it is okay for people to propagate "hate speech." 

That's fucked up.  Sure, SCOTUS allows it from a legal perspective, but from a moral perspective, that's fucked up.  Would you feel that way if ethnic/hate speech was directed to your family?
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #124 on: August 16, 2017, 08:55:15 AM »
(I'm using alt-left moving forward. People here understand my take on these people and I think it's a good description without having to parse every syllable.)

About once a year a topic like this comes up, relating to the suppression of free thought. Make no mistake, that's exactly what we're talking about here. When it does I watch Inherit the Wind. Partly because I'm a big Spencer Tracey fan and partly because it's amazingly topical no matter the era. Everybody should make a point to watch it and determine who they are. I for the life of me can find no difference between the alt-left and the Matthew Bradys of the world. Both so terrified of an idea that they it's mere expression becomes a matter of existential import. I have no doubt that all of these people who feel compelled to go out and confront racist ideology would be the ones cheering on Henry Drummond as he rails against the ignorant ramblings of a devout Christian grandstander, blissfully unaware that they do the same thing, equally convinced of their rightness.

What's the difference between demanding that nobody be allowed to teach evolution and that nobody be allowed to suggest that they're superior to another? Yeah, I know, one's a proven fact and the other mysticism and dogma. Yet to the practitioners of that mysticism it's every bit as real and compelling, is it not? They're wrong because we know they are. And, teaching evolution harms no one and the spreading of hate speech harms the hated. Doesn't the teaching of values that are fundamentally opposed to our own, and threatening to their very soul, harm our own children? Both the alt-left and the Brady's of the world base their arguments on the absolute certainty that they are right and the wrong are dangerous. Brady would no doubt find a reason to distance himself from the racist fucks of the world, just as the intolerant of intolerance gang will find a way to distance themselves from his anti-humanist worldview, but take it from one of the Hornbecks, you're all a bunch of narrow-minded apes.
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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #125 on: August 16, 2017, 08:56:46 AM »
So, yes, I do very much think it is okay for people to propagate "hate speech." 

That's fucked up.  Sure, SCOTUS allows it from a legal perspective, but from a moral perspective, that's fucked up.  Would you feel that way if ethnic/hate speech was directed to your family?
That is irrelevant.  Most of what we might deem hate speech is immoral.  That isn't the issue.  The issue is whether they should have the right to say it.  And, yes, I believe they should, whether it is directed at me, my family, or whoever.
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Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #126 on: August 16, 2017, 09:03:33 AM »
(I'm using alt-left moving forward. People here understand my take on these people and I think it's a good description without having to parse every syllable.)

About once a year a topic like this comes up, relating to the suppression of free thought. Make no mistake, that's exactly what we're talking about here. When it does I watch Inherit the Wind. Partly because I'm a big Spencer Tracey fan and partly because it's amazingly topical no matter the era. Everybody should make a point to watch it and determine who they are. I for the life of me can find no difference between the alt-left and the Matthew Bradys of the world. Both so terrified of an idea that they it's mere expression becomes a matter of existential import. I have no doubt that all of these people who feel compelled to go out and confront racist ideology would be the ones cheering on Henry Drummond as he rails against the ignorant ramblings of a devout Christian grandstander, blissfully unaware that they do the same thing, equally convinced of their rightness.

What's the difference between demanding that nobody be allowed to teach evolution and that nobody be allowed to suggest that they're superior to another? Yeah, I know, one's a proven fact and the other mysticism and dogma. Yet to the practitioners of that mysticism it's every bit as real and compelling, is it not? They're wrong because we know they are. And, teaching evolution harms no one and the spreading of hate speech harms the hated. Doesn't the teaching of values that are fundamentally opposed to our own, and threatening to their very soul, harm our own children? Both the alt-left and the Brady's of the world base their arguments on the absolute certainty that they are right and the wrong are dangerous. Brady would no doubt find a reason to distance himself from the racist fucks of the world, just as the intolerant of intolerance gang will find a way to distance themselves from his anti-humanist worldview, but take it from one of the Hornbecks, you're all a bunch of narrow-minded apes.

Well then you, Stadler and Bosk are just as extreme in your own way.   Radical centrism or something.

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #127 on: August 16, 2017, 09:08:09 AM »
So, yes, I do very much think it is okay for people to propagate "hate speech." 

That's fucked up.  Sure, SCOTUS allows it from a legal perspective, but from a moral perspective, that's fucked up.  Would you feel that way if ethnic/hate speech was directed to your family?
That is irrelevant.  Most of what we might deem hate speech is immoral.  That isn't the issue.  The issue is whether they should have the right to say it.  And, yes, I believe they should, whether it is directed at me, my family, or whoever.

I'll chalk that response up to the (US) lawyer in you.  Hate speech is a crime in Canada - and many other countries. 
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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #128 on: August 16, 2017, 09:10:18 AM »
The issue is whether they should have the right to say it.  And, yes, I believe they should, whether it is directed at me, my family, or whoever.
As a person from Europe, this sounds a bit crazy. I get you holding this view in its logical consistency, but for people who actually identify as Nazis and have the exact same ideas, I don't think it should be allowed.

Again, I do get why you would feel that way. This is just my pet theory, but I have a feeling that Americans don't have a lot of "baggage" from WW2, in a sense that you did take the blow and bombings and spend your money and invent tech and invest men's lives in the positive outcome, but you're not intimately familiar with Nazis and their adjacents just rampaging through your country, on foot, by plane, ravaging everything, leaving you to starve and rebuild from the literal ashes. Like, I have living grandparents with intimate memories of all that shit who were almost under line of fire several times, and that's just the women. I have late grandpas who were POW's and only survivors of minor battles. When you have something like that just a generation away, it's hard to say "yes, but free speech applies even to Nazis", it just sounds like a big no-no.

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #129 on: August 16, 2017, 09:16:11 AM »
Sure, it's a lot easer for me as an American in 2017 to distance myself from that.  But I still maintain that that isn't the issue.  The conduct you are talking about is clearly wrong and harmful, and should at every cost be prohibited.  But that is different from the idea and speech. 
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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #130 on: August 16, 2017, 09:17:08 AM »
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[Serious] Why not? We use alt-right to describe people on the right that go to the extremes, what makes you think similar people don't exist on the left? I keep hearing "trump just made that phrase up. It's not real". Well, I never heard "alt-right" until kind of recently. Someone had to just make that up at some point, yet it's considered real.


people have been self-identifying as alt-right for a while now. It's a specific term those guys chose for themselves that has meaning. "alt-left" started as a smear by centrist democrats against people to the left and now Trump is using it. Also there's no equivocation between white supremacists and what...people who want single payer and state-funded higher-education? C'mon.

thank you

I didn't realize that "single payer" and "state-funded higher-education" were considered to be the values of those on the extreme left. C'mon guys. I hate Trump just as much as you, but it's clear as day that the "alt-left" he's referring to are the ones who, under the guise of protesting, are destroying property, beating people on the right, tearing down statues and monuments, and pepper spraying old ladies who support Trump.

The people who want single payer are not the "alt-left". The people who do this are.








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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #131 on: August 16, 2017, 09:18:45 AM »
The issue is whether they should have the right to say it.  And, yes, I believe they should, whether it is directed at me, my family, or whoever.
As a person from Europe, this sounds a bit crazy. I get you holding this view in its logical consistency, but for people who actually identify as Nazis and have the exact same ideas, I don't think it should be allowed.

Again, I do get why you would feel that way. This is just my pet theory, but I have a feeling that Americans don't have a lot of "baggage" from WW2, in a sense that you did take the blow and bombings and spend your money and invent tech and invest men's lives in the positive outcome, but you're not intimately familiar with Nazis and their adjacents just rampaging through your country, on foot, by plane, ravaging everything, leaving you to starve and rebuild from the literal ashes. Like, I have living grandparents with intimate memories of all that shit who were almost under line of fire several times, and that's just the women. I have late grandpas who were POW's and only survivors of minor battles. When you have something like that just a generation away, it's hard to say "yes, but free speech applies even to Nazis", it just sounds like a big no-no.
My experience in talking with Europeans is that they simply don't understand our distrust of government. Perfectly understandable. We don't want the government in a position to determine what is a good or bad idea, and have codified that at the most fundamental level. By extension, we also don't trust the morally superior to act as an intermediary to do what we prohibit the government from doing. Alas, the morally superior rarely recognize the flaw.
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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #132 on: August 16, 2017, 09:25:02 AM »
Chino I don't condone those actions,  but those aren't a self-identified movement in the same way the alt-right is.     That's what it means when people say the "alt-left" isn't a thing. 

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #133 on: August 16, 2017, 09:26:02 AM »
The issue is whether they should have the right to say it.  And, yes, I believe they should, whether it is directed at me, my family, or whoever.
As a person from Europe, this sounds a bit crazy. I get you holding this view in its logical consistency, but for people who actually identify as Nazis and have the exact same ideas, I don't think it should be allowed.

Again, I do get why you would feel that way. This is just my pet theory, but I have a feeling that Americans don't have a lot of "baggage" from WW2, in a sense that you did take the blow and bombings and spend your money and invent tech and invest men's lives in the positive outcome, but you're not intimately familiar with Nazis and their adjacents just rampaging through your country, on foot, by plane, ravaging everything, leaving you to starve and rebuild from the literal ashes. Like, I have living grandparents with intimate memories of all that shit who were almost under line of fire several times, and that's just the women. I have late grandpas who were POW's and only survivors of minor battles. When you have something like that just a generation away, it's hard to say "yes, but free speech applies even to Nazis", it just sounds like a big no-no.
My experience in talking with Europeans is that they simply don't understand our distrust of government. Perfectly understandable. We don't want the government in a position to determine what is a good or bad idea, and have codified that at the most fundamental level. By extension, we also don't trust the morally superior to act as an intermediary to do what we prohibit the government from doing. Alas, the morally superior rarely recognize the flaw.

That sums it up better than I could have.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #134 on: August 16, 2017, 09:32:27 AM »
Chino I don't condone those actions,  but those aren't a self-identified movement in the same way the alt-right is.     That's what it means when people say the "alt-left" isn't a thing.

Like it or not, it is now. The origins of words mean nothing over time. "Faggot" was originally a term for a bundle of sticks, now it's a word for people to hurt homosexuals with, or for Milo Yiannopoulos to describe himself. I never self-identified myself as a Millennial, but at some point someone came up with a date range and now I'm referred to as one.

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #135 on: August 16, 2017, 09:43:29 AM »
Quote
[Serious] Why not? We use alt-right to describe people on the right that go to the extremes, what makes you think similar people don't exist on the left? I keep hearing "trump just made that phrase up. It's not real". Well, I never heard "alt-right" until kind of recently. Someone had to just make that up at some point, yet it's considered real.


people have been self-identifying as alt-right for a while now. It's a specific term those guys chose for themselves that has meaning. "alt-left" started as a smear by centrist democrats against people to the left and now Trump is using it. Also there's no equivalence between white supremacists and what...people who want single payer and state-funded higher-education? C'mon.

Don't simplify it down to where it seems to be a "logical fallacy".   I'm for single-payer for god's sake, and I'm not exactly the poster boy for "alt-Left".    Extremism of all forms embodies the emphasis on the rights of the subject group over the rights of the collective.   The alt-right wants to assert their rights to the detriment of minorities.   You're kidding yourself if you don't believe that the alt-left is doing the exact same thing in a different context.  Your earnings? Fuck that, you have no earnings.  They go to the collective.    Your right to free think?  Fuck that, you have to abide by the agenda of the identity politics du jour.   Your right to the pursuit of happiness?  Fuck that, the state owns your business.     Don't try to convince us with a straight face that no one has ever died as a result of the socialist exertion of power.


Communism, in the original form, is a worker-class initiated and driven uprising. This has never happened in "communist" regimes, nor is it likely. Your over-exaggerations as you call them strike a 1984, or McCarthy era fear of what is not true of the original ideology.

I wouldn't put "communism" as the same as "alt-left".   So I'm not sure what we're arguing here.  I'm not a McCarthy-ist in any sense of the word.  I don't agree with communism, but I don't consider it an extremist form of government. 


Quote


Don't simplify it down to where it seems to be a "logical fallacy".

   


Your earnings? Fuck that, you have no earnings.  They go to the collective.    Your right to free think?  Fuck that, you have to abide by the agenda of the identity politics du jour.   Your right to the pursuit of happiness?  Fuck that, the state owns your business.   

If that's your idea of rational discourse,  then you're not much better than what you accuse us of being.

It's not my idea of "rational discourse".   I just wrote two pages of cogent, reasonable (not to say "right") rational discourse.   I use a little hyperbole to reinforce the idea that under a socialist regime it's not a choice, and that the concept of "rights" is a joke to be dismissed by the government, and you're going to call me on that?


Socialism is established in a democratic manner.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

Which is no different than how our two parties are democratically elected, and then we have no direct say in their actions.

In some cases; if a people opt for that form of government, then I have no objection to it.  Stalin didn't have to kill 20 million political dissidents because the people opted for that form of government freely.   There were not barriers because it was a form of "democracy".  People weren't shot in the "No Man's Land" of Check Point Charlie because they were there of their free will. 

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #136 on: August 16, 2017, 10:02:37 AM »
Until Trump said it yesterday, I'd never heard the term Alt-left.  And the counter-protesters didn't drive a car through a crowd of the "protestors".  However, yes... extremism is bad regardless of the direction it flows to.

I'm scared.  I'm literally scared for the path that North American (because what happens into the US affects Canada a shit-ton) society is on.  There's just too much in some of these posts that I can't believe I'm reading.  Sure, it takes 'two to tango'.  So what... no one should oppose anything?  By that logic, the US is holds culpability in Korea, Vietnam, Nicaragua, Afghanistan, on and on.  Would it have been better just to sit idly by?  It's ok when the US gov't organizes violence and stands up to a differing position, or potential attack on western way of life, but when citizens do it themselves, POTUS has the audacity to call them out as the problem as much the instigators?  Ya know, that rape victim was extremely violent to scratch and claw at the eyes of her attacker.   ::)

I wrote a long post and lost it.  Karma?

Look, don't conflate action with ideas, and don't conflate government interaction for personal accountability.   I'm not at all saying that the girl being attacked can't fight back.  I'm saying that if someone says to her "I'd love to fuck you" she can't resort to clawing their eyes out. 

He called out VIOLENCE.  I think we both agree that violence is bad?   I think you're more upset that he didn't rationalize and reinforce your views on race, and frankly, I have no problem with that. 

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As for normalizing, Trump's behaviour has been normalized by his base and Republicans so much that by saying it isn't normalized just proves that it's the new norm.  Anyone who thinks his statements yesterday are anything but abhorrent and reprehensible has accepted this as a new norm.  To so voraciously oppose certain acts of terrorism, but then borderline condone others is mind-boggling; to claim facts were needed before a statement could be issued when that's never been the case before is laughable; to talk about ones own house and winery in the face of these events is mind-boggling.

What's mindboggling is how much the PC mentality has been "Normalized".   God I hate that word; it's nothing more than another rationalization for why people think differently than you do.   "If they won't accept my logic, then I attack the core of the system that allows their belief".    Please.   The only think "normalized" by trump is that he is the inevitable conclusion of 25 years of progression (pun very much intended) towards this idea that "opinions matter!" and "as long as I think it, it MUST be right!" that has characterized the emphasis on identity politics (and thus the PC movement) over the last decade.   Trump is President not because of "racists", or the "deplorables"; he is President because a significant number of people decided that identity politics are important, but they do not act as a Silver Bullet negating any other discourse, or idea, or point of view.   I've seen numbers as high as 15 million, the NY Times says 9.2 million, OBAMA VOTERS who voted for Trump.  Do you honestly think that these people woke up one day and just decided to be "racist" or "deplorable"?   Of course not. 

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Hypnotized sheep... no most are not.  But you're kidding yourself if you don't think there is a meaningful number of people that have beliefs leaning towards the extreme right who will surely be influenced by the recent events.  If there was a strong, absolute, and consistent message of opposition of these beliefs, then perhaps they wouldn't be further swayed.

Why then ignore all those that are swayed the other way?  You think human nature is a one-way street?   Personally, I think the odds are pretty strong that for every person swayed to the "Dark Side", there's at least two swayed back.    Hell, I think I cited here, that the other "big name" in white supremacist politics - Don Black - just had his son come out and denounce the entire movement.  If that guy can be turned, all hope is not lost.

There is ALWAYS going to be that faction of people - either through mental defect or social conditioning, or simple sociopathy - that are going to take contrarian positions.   The idea that it can - or even should - be "stamped out" is naïve, and equally dangerous (Bosk already told us why). 

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Extreme socialism... sure, those beliefs are and should be concerning.  However, when was the last time a "protest" was staged from that position (in the US) like we saw this weekend?  When was the last time that anyone had REAL concern for their safety and well-being because of extreme socialists?

Stalin, anyone?  20 million a big enough number?    How about the violence from the "RESIST!" movements immediately following the election.   See also Chino's post.

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Stadler... say it all you want, state your family history all you want... I don't believe that you do get it.  If you consider "Jews will not replace us" free speech, that's fucked up.  That is hate speech.  Watch the video of the dude with the "Radical Agenda" tee-shirt. 

--> "I don't think that you could feel the way about race that I do and watch that Kushner bastard walk around with that beautiful girl"

Spreading those beliefs constitutes "free speech"?

Of courses it does.  Other than it is factually incorrect (and simple math can tell you that) why wouldn't that be "free speech"?  Because we disagree with it?  I disagree with 95% of what Bernie Sanders says, and half of it is provably, factually incorrect, and yet...

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Sadly, this will change nothing politically.  If Sandy Hook showed anything, it's that nothing changes politically.  My only hope is that we've taught enough morality in younger generations that they can and will raise their voices and drown out the extremism.  But that's going to take a time.

What would you expect to change?   Get a president you like?   God forbid.  :)    Shut down ideas you don't like?  Let me know when I can do that, because I have a long list.   Look; Trump is the inevitable conclusion (and actually not even that; I dread the next President, frankly) of 25 years of movement in this direction. 

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #137 on: August 16, 2017, 10:09:03 AM »
Fox News's live coverage didn't even try to spin that press conference yesterday

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/foxs-kat-timpf-goes-off-on-trump-presser-im-wondering-if-it-was-actually-real-life/

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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #138 on: August 16, 2017, 10:09:26 AM »
So, yes, I do very much think it is okay for people to propagate "hate speech." 

That's fucked up.  Sure, SCOTUS allows it from a legal perspective, but from a moral perspective, that's fucked up.  Would you feel that way if ethnic/hate speech was directed to your family?
That is irrelevant.  Most of what we might deem hate speech is immoral.  That isn't the issue.  The issue is whether they should have the right to say it.  And, yes, I believe they should, whether it is directed at me, my family, or whoever.

I'll chalk that response up to the (US) lawyer in you.  Hate speech is a crime in Canada - and many other countries.

Hate speech is (or can be) a crime here, too.  The difference is what YOU think should be "hate speech" and what actually IS "hate speech".   "Hate speech" isn't defined by whether it is "offensive" or not.  There is no "hate speech" exception to free speech.    The Supreme court has held, THIS YEAR, that "Speech that demeans on the basis of race, ethnicity, gender, religion, age, disability, or any other similar ground is hateful; but the proudest boast of our free speech jurisprudence is that we protect the freedom to express “the thought that we hate.” United States v. Schwimmer, 279 U. S. 644, 655 (1929) (Holmes, J., dissenting).   Justice Kennedy wrote, in that same opinion (written by Alito): "A law that can be directed against speech found offensive to some portion of the public can be turned against minority and dissenting views to the detriment of all. The First Amendment does not entrust that power to the government’s benevolence. Instead, our reliance must be on the substantial safeguards of free and open discussion in a democratic society."



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Re: Racial tension ramping up....
« Reply #139 on: August 16, 2017, 10:12:24 AM »
 I sometimes cringe at some of the things Trump says but...

Trump said both sides are wrong and the media is killing him for saying it. Reality is, you are not justified to respond with violence because you are responding to hate groups. That's not acceptable. Would I get in someones face? Maybe, but it wouldn't make me right for doing so.

Its up to law enforcement to handle it, not a vigilante mob. You have to address the fact that no violence is ok. You don't you send the message its ok to respond with violence as long as your on the right side. No.

Now saying both sides have some really great people is just a moronic thing to say.
Yup. Tick is dead on.  She's not your type.  Move on.   Tick is Obi Wan Kenobi