Author Topic: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?  (Read 1909 times)

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Offline gzarruk

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Re: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2017, 10:31:05 PM »
A version of Dream Theater, but with different/younger members? Where have I seen that before?  :justjen *Looks at MP Shattered Fortress*  :lol

Now, seriously, I have no problem with new people replacing the current members, one by one, after they leave, retire or whatever. That's happened with many bands through the years (Megadeth, Stratovarius, Yes, etc). IMO, as long as the band leader/main writer remains, it's no big deal, really.

In the case of DT, like some have already said, Petrucci is (and has always been, no matter what people say about MP) clearly the leader and main songwriter there. As long as there's JP in DT, the band can carry on with different members (of course, the quality should still be up to the DT standards), and it would work just fine.

Take JM, for example, it would suck to see him leave, but aqfter some time has passed, it would't be such a big deal, and he's still one of the two DT members, along with JP, who don't get some/a lot of criticism for their style (JLB, JR and MM usually do).

As I've previously said on a couple other threads, I see James leaving (or being asked to leave) because of his voice limitations in a couple years. Same with Jordan, he'll probably retire after a couple more album cycles due to his age. Should DT continue without them? Sure. As long as the band keeps JP and continues to make great music, I'm in  :metal
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline Drinktheater

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Re: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?
« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2017, 06:05:47 AM »

Interesting Dream Theater album  "Beyond this life!"

Offline |KirK|

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Re: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?
« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2017, 01:54:26 AM »
A version of Dream Theater, but with different/younger members? Where have I seen that before?  :justjen *Looks at MP Shattered Fortress*  :lol

Now, seriously, I have no problem with new people replacing the current members, one by one, after they leave, retire or whatever. That's happened with many bands through the years (Megadeth, Stratovarius, Yes, etc). IMO, as long as the band leader/main writer remains, it's no big deal, really.

In the case of DT, like some have already said, Petrucci is (and has always been, no matter what people say about MP) clearly the leader and main songwriter there. As long as there's JP in DT, the band can carry on with different members (of course, the quality should still be up to the DT standards), and it would work just fine.

Take JM, for example, it would suck to see him leave, but aqfter some time has passed, it would't be such a big deal, and he's still one of the two DT members, along with JP, who don't get some/a lot of criticism for their style (JLB, JR and MM usually do).

As I've previously said on a couple other threads, I see James leaving (or being asked to leave) because of his voice limitations in a couple years. Same with Jordan, he'll probably retire after a couple more album cycles due to his age. Should DT continue without them? Sure. As long as the band keeps JP and continues to make great music, I'm in  :metal
James leaving in a couple years?! I'm not ready for this... :omg: Do you really think he'll be quitting in a few years?!

Offline gzarruk

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Re: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?
« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2017, 06:58:22 AM »
James leaving in a couple years?! I'm not ready for this... :omg: Do you really think he'll be quitting in a few years?!

Well, of course there's really no way to know if this is going to happen or not. Maybe James gets his voice in much better shape in the next couple years and stays in the band for the rest of their career. However, judging by his recent (2016-2017) live performances, he seems to be struggling a lot to keep up with the songs (both old and new), so I think there's a strong chance of him being replaced sometime in the not-so-distant future. Just my thoughts, though.
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline |KirK|

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Re: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?
« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2017, 08:08:59 AM »
Performing I&W every evening in its entirety has not been the best choice for his voice. Of course I appreciated it so much, but just a couple of songs here and there from those years would be OK as well!!!

Offline Stadler

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Re: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?
« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2017, 08:57:39 AM »
To answer the OP, anything is possible.    Yes, technically, has no original members.   

The statement that "Petrucci is irreplaceable" is just opinion, and might ruin the DT experience for you personally, but there is absolutely no reason that he could not be replaced, should he (or more correctly, the group that owns the name) allows it to happen.

I have no doubt that Gene Simmons has an angle that involves money, but Paul has said the same thing, and I think - at least in some of the interviews - that it was meant more existentially.  That "KISS" the entity was bigger than any one person, and whether you like the various incarnations or not, it IS.   They have, at various times, played with replacements for ALL FOUR members, and survived.   

It's all down to the ownership of the name and the authority of the members that control that name.  And it need not be a band member.   Let's say I was the manager of "Yes", and let's say Chris Squire was the sole owner of the name.  If as part of the estate planning process, he transferred that name to me upon his death, I could, legally, float an official version of "Yes", and pick five new members to comprise that band.  Whether it would sell music, whether it would attract fans, whether it would be credible, these are all legit questions, but none of them actually decide whether it's possible or not.   

Except in the event that one member - Steve Harris (Maiden), David Coverdale (Whitesnake), Neal Schon (Journey) likely fall into this group - owns the name and controls the entity, the idea that a band member is "irreplaceable" is largely opinion, and largely about taste and preference.   For example, to me, Sabbath isn't Ozzy or Iommi (though also Iommi) but Geezer.  I saw Sabbath multiple times with Geezer and without, and it's a different band without him, and an inferior band if you ask me in my humble opinion.   I am a die-hard Kiss fan, and frankly, having seen the band multiple times with and without Peter Criss, he's a liability.  It's a better, truer Kiss WITH Eric Singer in the band than with Peter Criss, if you ask me in my humble opinion.    I understand and respect that others see different, but at the end of the day, our opinions are meaningless, and only Tony and Ozzy can decide (for Sabbath) and Paul and Gene (for Kiss).  We can only choose not to go or not to buy.

Offline Tony From Long Island

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Re: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?
« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2017, 01:42:34 PM »


When MP left he may have been thought irreplaceable, but he wasn't.


Some people still disagree with you   :-)
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Offline Tony From Long Island

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Re: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?
« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2017, 01:43:51 PM »
As a DT tribute band, sure.  As DT?   Nope.
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Offline WheyWaffles

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Re: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?
« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2017, 05:36:10 PM »
I don't really see them doing that. And I don't even want them to. Even more than anyone else, I consider Petrucci the key member. When he retires that's it. It's no longer Dream Theater

It stopped being Dream Theater the day Charlie Dominici laced up his high tops and swaggered out of the room.

Offline Cable

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Re: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?
« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2017, 06:07:45 PM »
I don't think it has been mentioned? Sorry if I'm repeating it. Is there a precedent for a rock band continuing after all original members have died?
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Offline gzarruk

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Re: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?
« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2017, 07:51:13 PM »


When MP left he may have been thought irreplaceable, but he wasn't.


Some people still disagree with you   :-)

But not the DT guys :-)
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline WheyWaffles

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Re: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?
« Reply #46 on: September 12, 2017, 08:48:34 PM »


When MP left he may have been thought irreplaceable, but he wasn't.


Some people still disagree with you   :-)

But not the DT guys :-)

Myung wishes MP was still in the band. When MP wanted back in shortly after his impulse-driven departure, Myung suggested they let him come back to play his Taurus 3 pedals. Unfortunately, he was overruled.

Offline Grizz

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Re: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?
« Reply #47 on: September 12, 2017, 09:29:58 PM »
This mostly depends on where you stand with the problem of Thaddeus' Ship.

My personal belief is that "Thaddeus' Ship" (within the context of the problem) is a tangibly meaningless name, an identity made by humans who just did so to simplify things, which we all do, constantly, at a subconscious level. The strength of its identity is significantly, but not completely, based on the sum of the contributions of its parts to said identity.

In my opinion the name and the identity of Dream Theater does not hinge on the presence of John Petrucci. If the ship had been completely replaced gradually, except the sails were original, the ship would not cease to be worthy of the title "Thaddeus' Ship" if the sails were replaced. If JP retired, and at some point in the future, a band called Dream Theater was touring with JR, MP, MM, JLB, and a worthy guitarist, I would take no issue. I feel similarly in the practical example of Robert Fripp. This applies even moreso because King Crimson's identity as a music group is dominated with several generations of frontmen, and his contributions are a minority to that identity.

Dream Theater, however, has not had "new parts" since it was new itself. The five original members of Majesty were born in 1967. Every band member that has joined since 1987 has been older than these five (Sherinian only marginally so, but he was still not younger), so the idea of new members perpetually keeping the band active doesn't really work. Additionally, DT's identity has become fairly solidified by now. ADToE and DTXII generally seem to be considered very "safe" albums that do not tread much new ground. The three albums of the past ten years that tried to deviate from the formula have been rather controversial. Live performances have become quite a bit more predictable and "Greatest Hits"-oriented in recent years. JP and JLB are considered vital parts of DT's identity. JM has to a similar extent. JR is also closely associated, but the history of keyboardists in the band kind of limits how heavily his contributions play into the identity. MM came when DT's identity was pretty solid, and was selected because of how well he can maintain the stylistic status quo (aka his "chemistry" with the rest of the band).

Basically, unless DT starts to become more stylistically dynamic again, to the point that their identity starts to grow (think the radical shift of 80s King Crimson), the era from Images and Words through about Octavarium or so will probably be what people think of when they think "Dream Theater." Thus, the spirit of the band wouldn't be able to survive further replacements. Couple that with the fact that the original members were the youngest, so there wasn't really any generational torch-passing, and the answer is no, IMO.
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Offline MirrorMask

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Re: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?
« Reply #48 on: September 13, 2017, 01:12:43 AM »
I agree with you, Grizz. The general idea of original band members being gradually replaced could work, but in Dream Theater's case, it simply won't. Hell, if DT should colonize Mars to fill it with prog metal leaving Earth behind, and Mike Portnoy would claim the name for Sons of Apollo, that would still feel weird, and at least MP is a founding member. A generational shift with no original members would feel even weirder and just wrong.
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Offline Dublagent66

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Re: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?
« Reply #49 on: September 13, 2017, 10:03:26 AM »
DT's got about 10 years to go max.
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Offline gzarruk

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Re: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?
« Reply #50 on: September 13, 2017, 10:43:25 AM »
I agree with you, Grizz. The general idea of original band members being gradually replaced could work, but in Dream Theater's case, it simply won't. Hell, if DT should colonize Mars to fill it with prog metal leaving Earth behind, and Mike Portnoy would claim the name for Sons of Apollo, that would still feel weird, and at least MP is a founding member. A generational shift with no original members would feel even weirder and just wrong.

Yes has no original members and are still around, same with Stratovarius.

DT's got about 10 years to go max.

I agree.
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline MirrorMask

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Re: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?
« Reply #51 on: September 13, 2017, 11:30:58 AM »
Nobody cared about the first incarnation of Stratovarius (sorry to the few fans of that era). The first incarnation of DT already had Myung, Petrucci and Portnoy.
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Offline Grizz

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Re: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?
« Reply #52 on: September 13, 2017, 11:34:57 AM »
I agree with you, Grizz. The general idea of original band members being gradually replaced could work, but in Dream Theater's case, it simply won't. Hell, if DT should colonize Mars to fill it with prog metal leaving Earth behind, and Mike Portnoy would claim the name for Sons of Apollo, that would still feel weird, and at least MP is a founding member. A generational shift with no original members would feel even weirder and just wrong.

Yes has no original members and are still around, same with Stratovarius.
Yes's identity isn't strongly tied to any set of members, especially founding members. Bruford is closely associated with Yes, but Alan White has been playing with them long enough to count as a "legitimate member" of Yes. Squire's dying wish was for Sherwood to  keep it going, and Sherwood has history with Yes. Banks isn't as closely associated with Yes as Squire despite being a founder. Kaye isn't too relevant to Yes's identity; most think of Wakeman. Wakeman and Anderson have their own Yes.

Plus, Yes' membership has been a lot more fluid than that of DT, so young blood like Sherwood and Davidson wouldn't be as egregious.
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Offline Bertie_Wooster

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Re: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?
« Reply #53 on: September 20, 2017, 12:24:31 AM »
Clone them and upload their memories to the clones.
Have them play scenes from a memory with lyrics about
Their past lives

Offline Drinktheater

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Re: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?
« Reply #54 on: September 22, 2017, 10:41:22 AM »
Clone them and upload their memories to the clones.
Have them play scenes from a memory with lyrics about
Their past lives

But Cloned JP might just hunt for NOMACS!!!

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Offline SebastianPratesi

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Re: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?
« Reply #55 on: September 25, 2017, 11:19:19 PM »
Kaye isn't too relevant to Yes's identity; most think of Wakeman.
I'm no expert, but I'm not sure about that. I mean, Tony's playing appears on The Yes Album (which, according to some books/webs I've read, was the band's first successful album in North America) and the two block-buster albums from the '80s.

I do think of Wakeman as the main Yes keyboardist like you said, but that might be just because I've seen more videos of his era in the band, or I like his Yes albums more. I'm sure something equivalent happens to other people with Tony.

Offline Lax

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Re: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?
« Reply #56 on: September 26, 2017, 02:39:01 AM »
I'll see first if my heart can handle JP's retirement when it comes, it's gonna be as hurtful as the lost of our childhood icons to me.
Hope he'll reincarnate into his own successor, the spirit carries on ;)

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?
« Reply #57 on: September 26, 2017, 03:55:48 AM »
JLB joked in last night's concert that with the warm reception of the crowd, he expect us to still watch them during the 50th anniversary tour. They would be having canes and wheelchairs.  :lol

Offline Bertielee

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Re: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?
« Reply #58 on: September 27, 2017, 08:46:39 AM »
JLB joked in last night's concert that with the warm reception of the crowd, he expect us to still watch them during the 50th anniversary tour. They would be having canes and wheelchairs.  :lol

 :rollin Yeah, I can totally picture that.

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Offline gzarruk

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Re: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?
« Reply #59 on: September 27, 2017, 09:05:24 AM »
JLB joked in last night's concert that with the warm reception of the crowd, he expect us to still watch them during the 50th anniversary tour. They would be having canes and wheelchairs.  :lol

Hope they never get to that :lol

I would totally be on board, though, with a couple lineup changes through the years if that helps keep DT alive and strong, at least for a few more years. Many of the older bands (Yes, Journey, etc) have done that and I don't see why DT shouldn't (as long as there's no issues with who has the name rights and all that legal stuff). I just want more DT  ;D
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline pg1067

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Re: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?
« Reply #60 on: September 27, 2017, 10:39:08 AM »
In the YesYears video (released shortly after the Union tour), Rick Wakeman discusses the notion of Yes continuing long after all of the then current members were dead and gone.  In that discussion, he draws an allusion to the London Symphony Orchestra.  In that regard, any band could continue in perpetuity.  Of course symphony orchestras and rock bands operate very differently, including, particularly, the fact that symphony orchestras don't (typically) write original music and, instead, perform compositions of others.  The biggest issue for a rock band would be acceptance by the fans.  Would the fans accept a Dream Theater without any of Labrie, Myung, Petrucci, Portnoy or Rudess?  It's one thing to replace one original member, as when Sherinian replaced Moore and then was replaced by Rudess or when Mangini replaced Portnoy, but the band still has the Labrie/Myung/Petrucci core (I'm intentionally not factoring in Dominici since the band was largely unknown when he left).

I saw Yes a few years back with Squire, Howe, White, Downes and Davison and got to meet the band after the show.  Chris's playing was an influence on me way back when, so meeting him was great, and I'd met Howe and White before (although they're not original members, they've both been around so long that they might as well be), but I didn't really care too much about D&D.  So, while this is a theoretical possibility, I'm not sure it's practical to think that fans will accept rock bands with no original members or members who were around for the band's heyday.

Offline IdoSC

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Re: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?
« Reply #61 on: October 12, 2017, 04:15:17 PM »
Eh, anything's possible, but I think DT leans a lot more towards the "band defined by the personnel" side. The fanbase took it a lot harder when MP left than other bands, the crowds are still smaller because of it and the albums are still very divisive with tons of people claiming it's been happening "since MP left". I really think this nearly broke the band and they couldn't go on with another of the 4 old-time members leaving.

I'm counting LaBrie and Rudess in it too even though they're not founding members because they've been in the band for "quite a while" now and the people who still follow the band regularly most likely consider them irreplaceable at this point. Rudess is a main composer and a leading force in this band, LaBrie is the signature voice. If any of these 4 guys left instead of MP back in 2010 I still think they maybe could've carried on, but 2 primary members leaving, I just can't see this band carrying on like that.

Offline Drinktheater

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Re: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?
« Reply #62 on: October 13, 2017, 12:00:40 PM »
I'll see first if my heart can handle JP's retirement when it comes, it's gonna be as hurtful as the lost of our childhood icons to me.
Hope he'll reincarnate into his own successor, the spirit carries on ;)

It will indeed a sad day, I hope there will be another day, I think I will be falling into infinity by then until some can take away my pain.

Offline DT1138

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Re: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?
« Reply #63 on: November 16, 2017, 08:47:24 AM »
Could it go on?  Yes.  But it all depends on who controls the rights etc after the band ends, splits up, etc.  I think the Kiss and holographic examples are great comparisons of what could happen.   But it's all return on investment, and as stated above DT is a niche band so there would have to be a lot of things ironed out.  Time will tell I guess. 

I have no interest without the current members, just my opinion.

Offline MirrorMask

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Re: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?
« Reply #64 on: November 16, 2017, 09:23:05 AM »
I'd only welcome a hologram of Myung tackling LaBrie on stage, but that wasn't even filmed when it happened so I'm not interested.
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Offline ToT-147

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Re: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?
« Reply #65 on: November 17, 2017, 07:07:53 PM »
Awesome thread, interesting and also funny as hell..  :lol

My answer to the OP would be that it could happen, but I don't see it happen with DT.. Anyways, this only they -will- know..

In order to be a bit empiricist about the issue, I know each band is a different world, but I could say a little more of the Stratovarius case, not only since the Yes one seems to be very well known in general around here (and with reason, being a prog band like DT), but also because it appears to be the ideal of the potential situation we're talking..

1- Petrucci a founding member and the main composer? Well, Timo Tolkki (guitars) was not only that, but also practically the only composer in Stratovarius.. After his departure no one thought the band would keep playing and even less making songs, but they did exactly that, and without folding or losing its fanbase at all.. Moreover, Tolkki was also the one having the rights for the name of the band, but he decided to give them to the band.. So, not even if JP was the only composer and the owner of the names and songs as Tolkki, would be impossible to replace.. This only leaves the "sound/style/talent" aspect over the table.. (Worth to mention that Tolkki's replacement, Matias Kupiainen -a DT fan btw-, is brilliant at playing AND composing)..

2- And here come the "but".. While in DT a replacement was never really younger than the rest of the band (just as Grizz pointed out), Stratovarius has been doing exclusively that.. When back in 2005 the average age of the band was 40, the first replacement (in ten years at least), the bassist Lauri Porra, was only 27.. In 2009, Matias replaced Tolkki with 26 years, and later on in 2012 the drummer Jorg Michael was replace by 24 years old Rolf Pilve (note that the age of the new guy is not only less than the average, but also inversely proportional).. This apparently supports the idea of the legacy, but the thing is that neither Kotipelto or Johansson have in mind to keep doing these kind of replacements, as they both have said in different interviews (well, the two candidates to leave would be precisely them, so maybe that's one important reason for them to not want that ;D).. Again, I just don't think the DT guys would like the idea.. If someone leaves, the most probable is that they replace him with someone with almost the same age, not with their kids (;))..
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 07:20:09 PM by ToT-147 »
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Offline MirrorMask

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Re: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?
« Reply #66 on: Today at 01:04:06 AM »
Timo Tollki was NOT a founding member of Stratovarius. He was not in the band since day one.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?
« Reply #67 on: Today at 01:08:53 AM »
Timo Tollki was NOT a founding member of Stratovarius. He was not in the band since day one.

Crazy right? Literally all of the founding members could have formed another band like years and years ago, even while Timo was in the band.
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Offline ToT-147

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Re: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?
« Reply #68 on: Today at 03:56:32 AM »
Timo Tollki was NOT a founding member of Stratovarius. He was not in the band since day one.

That's correct.. But he was since the first album, made all the songs and even sung by then.. He was the soul of the band, a lot more than MP in Dream, and that didn't stop the continuity of the band after he left..

But yeah, my bad, not a founding member..
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Offline ?

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Re: Could DT still be touring in 50 years time?
« Reply #69 on: Today at 07:19:47 AM »
To be fair, Stratovarius didn't really hit it big or become an influential band until after Kotipelto and Johansson had joined, just like DT didn't have a breakthrough until James came on board and I&W became a success.