Author Topic: 'Murtherland  (Read 3231 times)

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Online Stadler

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Re: 'Murtherland
« Reply #35 on: December 04, 2017, 11:07:12 AM »
Maybe not at war, but since when has Russia been an ally?  Politically, economically, or militarily.

col·lu·sion
   /kəˈlo͞oZHən/
noun
secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, especially in order to cheat or deceive others.

Seems like it might fit the situation to me.

But you say that as if it is the right thing and the way it should be.   We would not have been successful in WWII if we didn't at least cooperate with the Soviet Union.  No one, least of all FDR, ever made the mistake of thinking we were "friends" - FDR didn't trust Stalin as far as he could throw him, and being a wheel-chair bound polio sufferer, that wasn't that far - but we did cooperate for the greater good. 

We ABSOLUTELY need to do so now.  CHINA.    Russia is not a wealthy country by any stretch, and they have two things to sell:  oil and military/political acumen.    Putin knows a deal with China is foolhardy, and a deal with the devil.  He will hold out as long as he possibly can.   But without cooperation with the USA, that will be a finite timeframe.   We have to get past this predilection to see Russia as 'the boogey men!' and get with the realpolitik.   

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Re: 'Murtherland
« Reply #36 on: December 04, 2017, 11:10:28 AM »
Copy of Flynn's plea deal.
https://www.justice.gov/file/1015121/download

Does Section 8D mean that he can no longer have a lawyer present when getting questioned?
That's odd, but I suspect there's some oddball lawyer thing where it makes perfect sense. Seems to me he waives the right to counsel during questioning, until he decides to ask for it at which point they'll allow it with no consequences. "We demand that you do X, Y and Z. If you decide not to, eh, you don't really have to."

I think that's right; the first part precludes Flynn from ever making a Constitutional claim against the government for a violation of his constitutional rights (which might then render the entire agreement bogus).   But the second part basically gives Flynn some comfort that he doesn't have to go this alone, and if the government doesn't allow the attorney, the worst that can happen is it's a breach of THIS agreement, again, not a violation of his Constitutional rights.  Admittedly, that doesn't seem to be a very well-drafted clause, but I'm presuming that these lawyers have done this before, found language that works for both parties and moved on.   I'd guess the chances of a large-scale dispute over specifically Section 8D is unlikely at best.

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Re: 'Murtherland
« Reply #37 on: December 04, 2017, 11:12:47 AM »
You guys are right, I support an investigation. I really do. I am just fearful this investigation will know no bounds any more than the one that tried to determine if Bill got his bishop polished by an intern did.

I support an investigation as well, but honestly, does ANYONE think a true bipartisan, objective investigation is even possible in this day and age?  Yeah, Meuller is pretty much above reproach, but beyond that, you can't swing a microphone stand without hitting a partisan participant, and in this climate of "everything on twitter all the time!" and "My opinion MATTERS! I'm IMPORTANT!" I am skeptical. 

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Re: 'Murtherland
« Reply #38 on: December 04, 2017, 11:19:40 AM »
You guys are right, I support an investigation. I really do. I am just fearful this investigation will know no bounds any more than the one that tried to determine if Bill got his bishop polished by an intern did.

I support an investigation as well, but honestly, does ANYONE think a true bipartisan, objective investigation is even possible in this day and age?  Yeah, Meuller is pretty much above reproach, but beyond that, you can't swing a microphone stand without hitting a partisan participant, and in this climate of "everything on twitter all the time!" and "My opinion MATTERS! I'm IMPORTANT!" I am skeptical.

Yea, this seems to be the case.  It sucks we can't have a non biased third party figure things out for the public. 

Offline El Barto

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Re: 'Murtherland
« Reply #39 on: December 04, 2017, 11:37:14 AM »
You guys are right, I support an investigation. I really do. I am just fearful this investigation will know no bounds any more than the one that tried to determine if Bill got his bishop polished by an intern did.

I support an investigation as well, but honestly, does ANYONE think a true bipartisan, objective investigation is even possible in this day and age?  Yeah, Meuller is pretty much above reproach, but beyond that, you can't swing a microphone stand without hitting a partisan participant, and in this climate of "everything on twitter all the time!" and "My opinion MATTERS! I'm IMPORTANT!" I am skeptical.
A bipartisan, objective investigation? Sure. As you said Meuller is beyond reproach. A bipartisan, objective conclusion? No fucking chance. As I've said for two years Trump is bulletproof. Meuller could turn up video of him banging 12 year old Vladivostok girls and congress would decline to act on it.
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Offline portnoy311

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Re: 'Murtherland
« Reply #40 on: December 04, 2017, 01:01:56 PM »
You guys are right, I support an investigation. I really do. I am just fearful this investigation will know no bounds any more than the one that tried to determine if Bill got his bishop polished by an intern did.

I support an investigation as well, but honestly, does ANYONE think a true bipartisan, objective investigation is even possible in this day and age?  Yeah, Meuller is pretty much above reproach, but beyond that, you can't swing a microphone stand without hitting a partisan participant, and in this climate of "everything on twitter all the time!" and "My opinion MATTERS! I'm IMPORTANT!" I am skeptical.

It's the FBI. So, yes. It's their job and they're the best our country has to offer at this stuff.

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Re: 'Murtherland
« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2017, 03:18:41 PM »
You guys are right, I support an investigation. I really do. I am just fearful this investigation will know no bounds any more than the one that tried to determine if Bill got his bishop polished by an intern did.

I support an investigation as well, but honestly, does ANYONE think a true bipartisan, objective investigation is even possible in this day and age?  Yeah, Meuller is pretty much above reproach, but beyond that, you can't swing a microphone stand without hitting a partisan participant, and in this climate of "everything on twitter all the time!" and "My opinion MATTERS! I'm IMPORTANT!" I am skeptical.

It's the FBI. So, yes. It's their job and they're the best our country has to offer at this stuff.

And it's sad that they are the best and can't keep their own bias out of it still http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/04/politics/peter-strzok-james-comey/index.html

Offline portnoy311

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Re: 'Murtherland
« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2017, 03:51:38 PM »
Do we think he only changed that because of his biases? It seems Comey was OK with it and it matches the overall message he was going for - she fucked up, but not recommending charges, which this language does.

I dunno, maybe he was crooked. I just tend to think if anyone in this is actually trustworthy, it's the FBI. It's not like the dude was removed for being over the top corrupt, or anything workwise he really did, at least far as I know. More that Mueller is going incredibly by the book.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 04:32:26 PM by portnoy311 »

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Re: 'Murtherland
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2017, 05:00:08 PM »
Well his private text messages show which way he leans.  Hard to say that his bias swayed the decision, but makes you wonder and that was a big decision to change that wording.  I don't think the FBI bias is due to Trump alone, the bias has been there and will be there due to the human element.  I'd like to think the FBI is the most trustworthy department in the fed, but I'm not sure there's many options for most trustworthy in government.

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Re: 'Murtherland
« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2017, 09:38:32 AM »
Do we think he only changed that because of his biases? It seems Comey was OK with it and it matches the overall message he was going for - she fucked up, but not recommending charges, which this language does.

I dunno, maybe he was crooked. I just tend to think if anyone in this is actually trustworthy, it's the FBI. It's not like the dude was removed for being over the top corrupt, or anything workwise he really did, at least far as I know. More that Mueller is going incredibly by the book.

But we're not talking OJ here, with blood everywhere, enough DNA to impregnate Canada, and THREE murder weapons (including a pair of gloves split into TWO crime scenes).   

Look, I don't expect people to not have opinions; that's the way life goes, right?    But there comes a time when you have to make decisions and prioritize.   Maybe, while we're investigating the participants in an election, I voluntarily forgo my vote.   Or if I'm investigating a politician, maybe I temporarily stick to twats about the Patriots and Kiss, and keep my political opinions to myself, no?   

Next time I'm having beers with el Barto, I'm bringing this up:   I am continually, and perpetually AMAZED at the amount of information people feel COMPELLED to cast out into the universe via social media.   Dick picks, political opinions, etc.   I know, I know, Stadler's on it again, but there's a good many problems in this world that could have been avoided by just a modicum of judgment and circumspection.   

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Re: 'Murtherland
« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2017, 09:42:18 AM »
Do we think he only changed that because of his biases? It seems Comey was OK with it and it matches the overall message he was going for - she fucked up, but not recommending charges, which this language does.

I dunno, maybe he was crooked. I just tend to think if anyone in this is actually trustworthy, it's the FBI. It's not like the dude was removed for being over the top corrupt, or anything workwise he really did, at least far as I know. More that Mueller is going incredibly by the book.

But we're not talking OJ here, with blood everywhere, enough DNA to impregnate Canada, and THREE murder weapons (including a pair of gloves split into TWO crime scenes).   

Look, I don't expect people to not have opinions; that's the way life goes, right?    But there comes a time when you have to make decisions and prioritize.   Maybe, while we're investigating the participants in an election, I voluntarily forgo my vote.   Or if I'm investigating a politician, maybe I temporarily stick to twats about the Patriots and Kiss, and keep my political opinions to myself, no?   

Next time I'm having beers with el Barto, I'm bringing this up:   I am continually, and perpetually AMAZED at the amount of information people feel COMPELLED to cast out into the universe via social media.   Dick picks, political opinions, etc.   I know, I know, Stadler's on it again, but there's a good many problems in this world that could have been avoided by just a modicum of judgment and circumspection.

Can I come?

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Re: 'Murtherland
« Reply #46 on: December 05, 2017, 09:57:36 AM »
I'll meet you guys at the bar as well  :lol

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Re: 'Murtherland
« Reply #47 on: December 05, 2017, 10:07:32 AM »
All welcome.  I was actually just lamenting that I don't have any sort of "meet up" concerts on the calendar and it bummed me out.  A lot, actually.   I was hoping SoA would be that, but that firecracker seems to be fizzling pretty damn quick, and I'm not traveling to Battle Creek, Michigan to see them.  :)

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Re: 'Murtherland
« Reply #48 on: December 05, 2017, 10:22:34 AM »
Yea with the limited SOA tour and no DT or IM next year, not sure what DTF meet ups are in store.  My concert calendar is starting to build up though and I am going to Atlanta for ProgPower, I'm sure there will be DTFers there.  My gf's schedule next year is real tough for her to take time off for a vacation so I may end up traveling for some other show or two as well to use my vacation time.

Offline El Barto

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Re: 'Murtherland
« Reply #49 on: December 05, 2017, 10:26:16 AM »
With a little luck I'm spending my vacation time (and then some) in Europe. You guys are going to have to come to Texas for a change (Cram excluded in that).
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Offline Adami

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Re: 'Murtherland
« Reply #50 on: December 05, 2017, 10:27:22 AM »
Well if anyone gets bored discussing Trump and wants to come to LA and discuss the Middle East, make sure to do it when I'm not here.
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Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: 'Murtherland
« Reply #51 on: December 05, 2017, 10:40:54 AM »
And if anyone wants to discuss the Russian investigation over a bowl of Borscht a la Polonium-210, you're always welcome!

Barto, which European countries you thinking of hitting?
"As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts' desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" - H.L.Mencken, 26th July 1920.

Offline El Barto

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Re: 'Murtherland
« Reply #52 on: December 05, 2017, 11:25:50 AM »
And if anyone wants to discuss the Russian investigation over a bowl of Borscht a la Polonium-210, you're always welcome!

Barto, which European countries you thinking of hitting?
Predominantly Germany and the Italian Alps. I want to drive a BMW3 all over the autobahn and I didn't spend enough time in the Lake Como area last time I was there.
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Re: 'Murtherland
« Reply #53 on: December 05, 2017, 12:20:39 PM »
With a little luck I'm spending my vacation time (and then some) in Europe. You guys are going to have to come to Texas for a change (Cram excluded in that).

I was supposed to be in Fort Worth; that has fallen through for the time being. I love Texas, so it's a matter of opportunity more than anything.

I've done the "BMW - Autobahn" thing and it was a thrill beyond measure.  Except when I was just crossing the old "East/West" line on the way to Berlin, doing about 200km/hr, and I was passed on the left by a guy on a yellow BMW motorcycle like I was standing still.   Guy had to be going 150mph.   

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Re: 'Murtherland
« Reply #54 on: December 05, 2017, 12:35:26 PM »
I've never driven myself on the autobahn but my boss has driven me multiple times between Amsterdam and Frankfurt (5 times to be exact) and our rental cars are usually BMWs or Mercedes being that it's Germany. Not top of the line, but good enough to have a nice drive.  Although after driving the Camaro last weekend, a type of car I've never experienced driving before, hitting that autobahn again is something I'd really like to do.

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Re: 'Murtherland
« Reply #55 on: December 05, 2017, 01:06:21 PM »
Well if anyone gets bored discussing Trump and wants to come to LA and discuss the Middle East, make sure to do it when I'm not here.


OK, I'll take Embassies in Jerusalem for 800 Alex...
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Re: 'Murtherland
« Reply #56 on: December 05, 2017, 01:18:33 PM »
I've never driven myself on the autobahn but my boss has driven me multiple times between Amsterdam and Frankfurt (5 times to be exact) and our rental cars are usually BMWs or Mercedes being that it's Germany. Not top of the line, but good enough to have a nice drive.  Although after driving the Camaro last weekend, a type of car I've never experienced driving before, hitting that autobahn again is something I'd really like to do.

When I went to Florida a few months ago I rented a convertible Mustang GT. The thing handled like a boat and couldn't hook up off the line to save its life, but damn did that thing go like hell on the highway.

Offline El Barto

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Re: 'Murtherland
« Reply #57 on: December 05, 2017, 01:25:30 PM »
I've never driven myself on the autobahn but my boss has driven me multiple times between Amsterdam and Frankfurt (5 times to be exact) and our rental cars are usually BMWs or Mercedes being that it's Germany. Not top of the line, but good enough to have a nice drive.  Although after driving the Camaro last weekend, a type of car I've never experienced driving before, hitting that autobahn again is something I'd really like to do.

When I went to Florida a few months ago I rented a convertible Mustang GT. The thing handled like a boat and couldn't hook up off the line to save its life, but damn did that thing go like hell on the highway.
Sounds just like an American muscle car.
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Re: 'Murtherland
« Reply #58 on: December 05, 2017, 01:30:31 PM »
I've never driven myself on the autobahn but my boss has driven me multiple times between Amsterdam and Frankfurt (5 times to be exact) and our rental cars are usually BMWs or Mercedes being that it's Germany. Not top of the line, but good enough to have a nice drive.  Although after driving the Camaro last weekend, a type of car I've never experienced driving before, hitting that autobahn again is something I'd really like to do.

When I went to Florida a few months ago I rented a convertible Mustang GT. The thing handled like a boat and couldn't hook up off the line to save its life, but damn did that thing go like hell on the highway.
Sounds just like an American muscle car.

Nice, I tested out my new fake go pro, had it clipped onto the passenger mirror and FLEW through downtown Dallas.  Also drove it down a dirt road as fast as I could then turned around and went back down it while the dust was all still a cloud.  Just for fun.  Some of this footage is going to be in my DT Images and Words video I'm working on as part of my "intermission" part of the video.

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Re: 'Murtherland
« Reply #59 on: February 16, 2018, 11:56:47 AM »
Damn

Special counsel's office charges 13 Russian nationals, 3 Russian entities with interfering in US political process.

https://www.justice.gov/file/1035477/download

Page 24:
Defendants and their co-conspirators thereafter destroyed evidence for the purpose of impeding the investigation. On or about September 13, 2017, KAVERZINA wrote in an email to a family member: "We had a slight crisis here at work: the FBI busted our activity (not a joke). So, I got preoccupied with covering tracks together with the colleagues." KAVERZINA further wrote, "I created all these pictures and posts, and the Americans believed that it was written by their people."


It's just a witch hunt folks! Fake news!

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: 'Murtherland
« Reply #60 on: February 16, 2018, 12:00:01 PM »
I think any entity actually hacking an voting facility is 1,000,000,000x more serious than someone posting some propaganda on facebook. I saw a couple articles about that a week or two ago, and then... nothing. *shrug
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Re: 'Murtherland
« Reply #61 on: February 16, 2018, 12:04:33 PM »
I think any entity actually hacking an voting facility is 1,000,000,000x more serious than someone posting some propaganda on facebook. I saw a couple articles about that a week or two ago, and then... nothing. *shrug

"Someone posting some propaganda on facebook" is not the same as a foreign non-ally having a small army of people trying to psychologically manipulate a subset of voters in key swing districts.


From at least April 2016 through November 2016, Defendants and their co-conspirators, while concealing their Russian identities and ORGANIZATION affiliation through false personas, began to produce, purchase, and post advertisements on U.S. social media and other online sites expressly advocating for the election of then-candidate Trump or expressly opposing Clinton. Defendants and their co-conspirators did not report their expenditures to the Federal Election Commission, or register as foreign agents with the U.S. Department of Justice. The political advertisements included the following:

April 6, 2016 "You know, a great number of black people support us saying that #HillaryClintonlsNotMyPresident"
April 7, 2016 "I say no to Hillary Clinton / I say no to manipulation"
April 19, 2016 "JOIN our #HillaryClintonForPrison2016"
May 10, 2016 "Donald wants to defeat terrorism ... Hillary wants to sponsor it"
May 19, 2016 "Vote Republican, vote Trump, and support the Second Amendment!"
May 24, 2016 "Hillary Clinton Doesn't Deserve the Black Vote"
June 7, 2016 "Trump is our only hope for a better future!"
June 30, 2016 "#Never Hillary #Hillary F orPrison #Hillary4 Prison #HillaryForPrison2016 #Trump2016 #Trump #Trump4President"
July 20, 2016 "Ohio Wants Hillary 4 Prison"
August 4, 2016 "Hillary Clinton has already committed voter fraud during the Democrat Iowa Caucus."
August 10, 2016 "We cannot trust Hillary to take care of our veterans!"
October 14, 2016 "Among all the candidates Donald Trump is the one and only who can defend the police from terrorists."
October 19, 2016 "Hillary is a Satan, and her crimes and lies had proved just how evil she is."

To pay for the political advertisements, Defendants and their co-conspirators established various Russian bank accounts and credit cards, often registered in the names of fictitious U.S. personas created and used by the ORGANIZATION on social media. Defendants and their coconspirators also paid for other political advertisements using PayPal accounts.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: 'Murtherland
« Reply #62 on: February 16, 2018, 01:28:37 PM »
Where's the informative post at that details how corrupt ol' Hillary was/is concerning the FISA warrant and the fake dossier? That's FAR worse than a dozen Russian people posting cliche'd hashtags on social media. They didn't vote illegally.....they posted crap that whomever believed it was already wasn't going to vote for Hillary. The likelihood of their effort swaying hundreds of thousands of votes is minimal.

Hillary lost because she was a horrible candidate. Period.
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Re: 'Murtherland
« Reply #63 on: February 16, 2018, 01:49:07 PM »
Where's the informative post at that details how corrupt ol' Hillary was/is concerning the FISA warrant and the fake dossier? That's FAR worse than a dozen Russian people posting cliche'd hashtags on social media. They didn't vote illegally.....they posted crap that whomever believed it was already wasn't going to vote for Hillary. The likelihood of their effort swaying hundreds of thousands of votes is minimal.

Hillary lost because she was a horrible candidate. Period.
If anyone actually has a highly informative post about the details of that topic they're free to post it  :tup From the way some people rave about it it sounds like it might be a fascinating tale, but unfortunately I somehow only seem to catch the posts where people post a string of buzzwords which seem to just appeal to the existing fandom for the story.

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Re: 'Murtherland
« Reply #64 on: February 16, 2018, 01:53:29 PM »
Where's the informative post at that details how corrupt ol' Hillary was/is concerning the FISA warrant and the fake dossier? That's FAR worse than a dozen Russian people posting cliche'd hashtags on social media. They didn't vote illegally.....they posted crap that whomever believed it was already wasn't going to vote for Hillary. The likelihood of their effort swaying hundreds of thousands of votes is minimal.

Hillary lost because she was a horrible candidate. Period.
If anyone actually has a highly informative post about the details of that topic they're free to post it  :tup From the way some people rave about it it sounds like it might be a fascinating tale, but unfortunately I somehow only seem to catch the posts where people post a string of buzzwords which seem to just appeal to the existing fandom for the story.

there's a whole lot of that going around these days
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Re: 'Murtherland
« Reply #65 on: February 16, 2018, 02:52:08 PM »
Where's the informative post at that details how corrupt ol' Hillary was/is concerning the FISA warrant and the fake dossier? That's FAR worse than a dozen Russian people posting cliche'd hashtags on social media. They didn't vote illegally.....they posted crap that whomever believed it was already wasn't going to vote for Hillary. The likelihood of their effort swaying hundreds of thousands of votes is minimal.

Hillary lost because she was a horrible candidate. Period.

"Cliche'd hashtags" is a terribly simplistic description of what's taken place here. This was calculated social media warfare. These fuckers had a million dollar a month budget and were holding opposing rallies blocks from each other all over the country.

Regardless who won, that's fucked up, and people being kind of okay with it because of something else Hillary may have done is really lame.

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Re: 'Murtherland
« Reply #66 on: February 16, 2018, 02:59:09 PM »
I am not ok with it, but what's the solution? Bar any and all groups from launching a social media campaign? Prohibit everyone from having rallies?
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Re: 'Murtherland
« Reply #67 on: February 16, 2018, 03:02:26 PM »
I am not ok with it, but what's the solution? Bar any and all groups from launching a social media campaign? Prohibit everyone from having rallies?

Identify Russian located social media groups for things like "GOP of Texas" and shut their pages down?

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Re: 'Murtherland
« Reply #68 on: February 16, 2018, 05:06:02 PM »
So no foreign national should be able to set up a page on the FaceTwittGram? Should they be able to protest? What about marching? Or writing an Op-Ed piece for the local fishwrap?

I am not trying to bait you, I just cannot tell what your ideal endgame is.
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Online RuRoRul

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Re: 'Murtherland
« Reply #69 on: February 16, 2018, 10:58:39 PM »
So no foreign national should be able to set up a page on the FaceTwittGram? Should they be able to protest? What about marching? Or writing an Op-Ed piece for the local fishwrap?

I am not trying to bait you, I just cannot tell what your ideal endgame is.
People can set up social media accounts, but if someone sets up multiple fake accounts and pages in order to coordinate activities then isn't it better if people find that out, so they know that the "Stand Up To Islamic Terror" rally they see posted on Facebook wasn't actually created by a local group as it claims, but by another organisation that also created an "Stand Up To Islamophobia" rally event across the street with another fake account. If people are violating the rules of the site they use by doing this, then they can also be removed from the site for doing so. If people are committing crimes in their activities (as it seems there is at least enough evidence for indictments on these guys) then they can be prosecuted. If a foreign nation is spending millions to fund an entire operation doing this, then the government can maybe stand up to them and respond in a way that makes clear to any nation that might try it that making thousands of accounts to spread disinformation to try to sway elections or cause division isn't acceptable, all while taking steps to counter any such efforts in the future. And if it turns out that Americans committed crimes by engaging in a criminal conspiracy with the operation (for example providing them voter data that they can use to target their operations, or knowingly coordinating with them on bow to use stolen information) then those crimes should be prosecuted as well.

Also, you agree that voting machines being hacked and vote counts being altered would be a big deal. What about voter registration databases being hacked, so that rather than adjusting the votes after they are cast, you simply remove voters so that their votes cannot be cast? It has been reported that voter rolls were attacked in many states and that in at least some states the systems were successfully penetrated. Wouldn't it be worth a thorough investigation into what exactly happened in those hacking attempts? Shouldn't there be some efforts made to prevent it happening again? Shouldn't whoever did it receive some sort of repercussions? If they can get away with hacking some politicians, flooding social media with troll accounts, and hacking into voter rolls, why not go for the vote counts next time?

There is indeed a huge difference between propaganda campaigns and hacking voting machines in terms of how effective and direct they are in influencing an election. But surely on this forum we are capable of considering that something can exist in different degrees - it doesn't have to be either "there was zero interference in the election from Russia" or "the votes weren't even counted, Putin just typed the result he wanted into a spreadsheet". There's plenty of space in between. Arguing that nothing happened or that it doesn't matter as long as the vote counts weren't altered directly is a poor straw man.

If some Russians say that Hillary sucks and Americans should vote for this guy Donald Trump, and some Americans think "I agree, these guys are right" and are swayed by that, then fair enough. But why would anyone think that the part of making thousands of false social media accounts purporting to be Americans, to coordinate messages and to share knowingly false news stories to deceptively try to sway people and increase division, is acceptable? Rather than hold our hands up and say "Well that's social media for you, nothing we can do", there are actually measures that can be taken, even if it is a very difficult task to combat it. One first step would be at least to acknowledge that this occurred, so that people are aware and might perhaps be slightly more discerning about what they consume on social media.

And there's the simple issue of whether something is against the law. Just making an account and trolling may not be against the law, but these guys are getting charges for things like bank fraud, identity theft. Hacking email accounts and stealing information is also a crime. Campaign officials having communications with hackers about stolen information and not reporting it may also be a crime. Obstruction of Justice is a crime. Regardless of whether someone buys that the Russian interference could actually change the outcome, I don't get how "Hillary would have lost anyway!" is equivalent to "Don't bother investigating or prosecuting crimes!". Whether or not these efforts actually swung the election (which is something we can never really know for sure anyway, as there is no way to see how the election turns out if things don't go this way) doesn't actually change whether or not they happened, whether or not they were legal, or whether or not they are worth guarding against in the future.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 11:55:11 PM by RuRoRul »