10 Years of Roadrunner Records

[ToT-147]

  But if someone hates it, why would they invest 2 1/2 hours a shot to listen to it again?

First of all, you can't "hate" an album after the very first listen.. You might dislike it, but I mean, music is not like literature, or like a movie, that it requires much less focus to get into it.. With music you have not images or words [:v] telling you what the whole thing is about.. The effort comes more from each one than from the product itself, and that's why we listen hundreds of times the same song/album that we don't even like so much, but only a few times our favorite movies/read only a few times or even just once our favorite books (generally speaking)..

Now, for a genre like prog, and, even more, for a band like DT, the level of concentration and time that demands judging their work is even higher than with most bands.. For instance, I happened to dislike the album the first two or three listens and now that I'm in like the 50th listen I absolutely love it, and I've read/hear that the same thing happened to many other people, so...

And about listening to it again, I wouldn't understand why they wouldn't.. I mean, if they're listening to it in the first place is becasue they like DT, and most of the album is not far from what they regulary do..

[bosk1]

  But if someone hates it, why would they invest 2 1/2 hours a shot to listen to it again?

First of all, you can't "hate" an album after the very first listen.

Sure you can. 

[MirrorMask]

  But if someone hates it, why would they invest 2 1/2 hours a shot to listen to it again?

First of all, you can't "hate" an album after the very first listen.

Sure you can.

He never heard St. Anger, clearly 

[bosk1]

  Funny you should mention that.  I had always panned the album since it came out.  But I just watched SKOM for the first time this past weekend, and understanding the songs in context, I find a few of them are actually not a bad listen at all if you can get past the production (or if it simply doesn't bother you).  With Metallica in general, I really enjoyed the run from Ride through the black album, and haven't liked any albums since then.  I can understand why they moved in the directions they have moved from album to album, and I can find something to appreciate in each of them.  But as a whole, I just don't care for it much, and it doesn't take a million listens for me to figure that out.  I appreciate and enjoy the albums I like from them.  I don't waste my times on the albums I don't enjoy, and with so much music out there that I genuinely do like, and only so many hours in this fleeting life, it doesn't make sense to try to waste my time trying to make myself like something that doesn't interest me.  (which, by the way, is different than a situation where an album does interest me, but I see that I am not connecting with it and am not getting it)  So on topic, I fully get why someone wouldn't want to spend more time listening to The Astonishing (or any album) when they've given it a few listens and figured out that it just isn't for them. 

[Dublagent66]

I don't think anyone in this forum has said they hated TA after the first listen, including myself.  But, I suppose it is a possibility.  I will always give any album several tries before I make a judgment.  Although, it didn't take very many tries to determine how I felt about St. Anger.   It had a few moments.

[ChuckSteak]

I hated TA in the first listen.


FIRST!!!
 

[ToT-147]

First of all, you can't "hate" an album after the very first listen.

Sure you can. 

Then something is definitely wrong with that someone who does that.. I mean, to hate an album after the first listen?.. You have to be very presumptuous to even believe that you can absorb a 2 hours proggy album by listen to it once... But even if you're the wisest person in the world in this type of music or band, you'd need to have a very agressiveness in yourself or really be in one of the worst days of your life to instantly hate a thing that you can like or dislike, but that at the end of the day is a piece of work and it has weeks and weeks of effort and talent and it was patiently made by several knowing guys..

I fully get why someone wouldn't want to spend more time listening to The Astonishing (or any album) when they've given it a few listens and figured out that it just isn't for them.

Well, but that's another thing.. I'd agree with that, as long as "few" means at least four or five times.. What I wouldn't get is people that have listen to it just once, think they hate it or dislike it bad and don't give it another chance to grow even a little.. I think I discussed this very topic in some other thread not so long ago; my conclusion then is the same as now: every piece of music deserves at least a few listens (which might vary depending on each particular band), and of course you're not forced to "waste your time" in something you don't like, but at least don't go out and say "hey, I hate this new record of X", because people hears/reads these kind of statements and with the so little time we certainly do have in our lives other's opinions become an important thing to know what to listen and what not.. So careful with that, that's just my humble advice..

[Zook]

So I was about to put my Roadrunner era CDs back, and noticed something troubling. I think the wrong logo font was used on the spine of DT12. The easiest way to tell the difference is the tail on the M. The font is small, but that tail looks to be from the fake logo.

[ToT-147]

So I was about to put my Roadrunner era CDs back, and noticed something troubling. I think the wrong logo font was used on the spine of DT12. The easiest way to tell the difference is the tail on the M. The font is small, but that tail looks to be from the fake logo.

Just compared it with TA and guess you're right.. Also, I noticed now that the logo font on TA's spine is noticeably pixelated..

[Setlist Scotty]

First of all, you can't "hate" an album after the very first listen.

Sure you can. 

Then something is definitely wrong with that someone who does that.. I mean, to hate an album after the first listen?

ToT-147, I'm sure there is a style/genre of music that you absolutely cannot stand. Maybe it's country music or hard core rap. So let's have you listen to a typical album from an artist in one of those styles - would you need more than one listen to know that you hate it? Doubtful.

Yes, this example might be extreme and yes, it's of a style/genre different that you wouldn't normally listen to, but the point stands that you can listen to a CD one time and hate it. In the case of TA or any other DT album, if the music just hits someone the wrong way so that they find it offensive or abhorrent, then why should it be any different? Even then, most fans will at least try to listen to it a couple more times to make sure, but if they still feel the same way, why can they not hate it? Seems silly for you to judge someone who's not you over a personal opinion.

[ToT-147]

ToT-147, I'm sure there is a style/genre of music that you absolutely cannot stand.

Yes, and you're already saying it yourself: I'd be not standing it, disliking it, (therefore ignoring it in my case)... not hating it.. That's a big difference.. I don't listen to things I don't like.. But again, this isn't like trying new styles of music for the first time; if you're listening to the 13th album of a band is because you like at least something of it.. You can dislike it, and yes, even hate the new album, even if is your favorite band, yes, you can, and I do get that... but after one single listen?.. Neither I'm saying you should try to make yourself like an album that you don't like, but this judgment needs more than a mere first impression, thing I think I'm not the only one here saying it..

In the case of TA or any other DT album, if the music just hits someone the wrong way so that they find it offensive or abhorrent, then why should it be any different? Even then, most fans will at least try to listen to it a couple more times to make sure, but if they still feel the same way, why can they not hate it? Seems silly for you to judge someone who's not you over a personal opinion.

Really? Offensive?.. Is not like they made Jordan growl all over the album.. But, seriously, this is just my opinion, you don't have to agree with it and I'm not saying any of you should; just giving a little different view over this.. Ultimately, is kind of an obvious thing to do every time you express your opinion, so I don't know how that's silly.. Every time we think about something we're already judging, but this belongs to another thread/section..

Edit: about the italicized sentence, and to be even more clearer, I never said that ppl can't hate something after those more couple of listens.. And I'm not even literally saying that people cannot hate an album even after just listen to a few songs of it (which in the case of TA I unfortunately know very well a case exactly like that).. Yeah they can, all I'm saying is they shouldn't, IMO..

About my "First of all, you can't 'hate' an album after the very first listen" I was talking specifically about TA, or any DT album at this stage (DT or whatever other band someone likes).. Phrase was taken out of context..

[Train of Naught]

About my "First of all, you can't 'hate' an album after the very first listen" I was talking specifically about TA, or any DT album at this stage (DT or whatever other band someone likes).. Phrase was taken out of context..

No. You were addressing music in general in the initial post. Why does it seem like you feel the need to 'protect' TA of anyone who might hate it without reaching your requirements of a 'fair judgement'? Anyone can form any opinion about any subject matter at any given moment in time. That does not change because Dream Theater are supposedly an otherwordly prog band that requires more attention than the average (prog) band (paraphrasing here but you did say something like this in the initial comment).

You love the album? Good for you! It means you are getting more enjoyment from the band in their current state than those so-called haters. I personally did not hate the album after one listen and actually still like it a bit, but it's perfectly fine for people to do so. They probably don't like feeling this way themselves either, arguably a band that was at some point their favourite put out a record they hate, I don't think they're proud of it, they just happen to feel this way.

[bosk1]

But, seriously, this is just my opinion, you don't have to agree with it and I'm not saying any of you should

And that would all be fine if expressed as just an opinion.  The problem is when you then say things like this:

First of all, you can't "hate" an album after the very first listen.

Sure you can. 

Then something is definitely wrong with that someone who does that..

You don't get to make that call and say something is "wrong" with someone simply because they disagree with you, and you certainly don't get to attack others on this forum by doing so.  You clearly do not understand the concept of agreeing to disagree without resorting to making it personal by saying there is something "wrong" with someone if they do not hold your opinion.  That won't be tolerated here, period.

[Dublagent66]

I hated TA in the first listen.


FIRST!!!
 

Well, there it is.  It actually is possible and I really can't say that I blame you. 

[ToT-147]

@Train of Naught: No, I wasn't.. I said that right before and right after talking about TA, although I understand it could be read as if I were talking about music in general, ok.. My comment was directed to TA because the thread is about it, among other albums, and someone said something specifically about that record.. That's the reason why I started talking about it, but I do <happen to feel the same way> about any music in general, as I said in the very quote you made.. I was answering to Setlist Scotty, who thought I wouldn't accept people hating nothing at all.. I never said that, I don't think that..

I do love the album, but it doesn't have to do with how I feel about the album, but only about how I feel about the attitude some have towards it.. And I'm not "protecting" anything here, only explaining my thoughts..


@bosk1: In my opinion, saying something is "wrong", or something is "right", "ugly","beautiful", etc, is all part of a personal opinion.. I did not 'attack' anyone.. Not only because I didn't name an specific person, but because I didn't use insultive words, which would be out of place anyways, since we're talking about a tiny issue here and it's not by any chance a big deal.... and this is why I'm surprised by your reaction to my posts as if they were offensive in someway or were talking about something truly important..

I get why is not so crystal clear to all of you [it's my twisted way to look at things, right?], but I'll try to explain it once more: these people that hate an album after the first listen and decide to not give it a second try, they would disagree with me about the quality of that album, right?.. Ok, in that same way, I disagree with them.. From their point of view, I'm wrong, because I'm enjoying something they don't, and viceversa.. Let the false modesty aside, this is how it happens in most cases, that we want to admit it or not is something else..

I'm not disqualifying anyone, just expressing my disagreement with them; but then again, as all of this turned to something bigger than it should (we're talking about the 10% of the fanbase if not less -I hope so-) and if you keep thinking I am actually attacking ppl, then I repeat what I said before:

this belongs to another thread/section..

I'll stop it right here..

On topic: long live to BC&SL!..

[bosk1]

And again, nothing is wrong with that until you say "if you think X, something is wrong with you."  In earlier posts, you implied that, which is a problem.  In the post I quoted, you outright said it.  Saying something is wrong with someone crosses the line from (1) disagreeing with the opinion to (2) attacking the person.  "Something is wrong with you" is #2.  #1 is fine.  #2 is not.  Do you see the difference?

You are right that liking or disliking an album is a small issue.  And when it comes to the album, I even agree with you!  I love it!  That should be obvious.  It is only your statement toward others who think differently that is the problem.

[ToT-147]

But then you're doing the same thing I'm doing by thinking my opinion is a problem, or my attitude towards other's opinions is a problem.. Because saying that what I'm thinking is a problem means that what I'm doing, according to you, is wrong.. And that's fine, I have no problem with that.. The #1-#2 thing that you wrote is correct, but only when applied to a straight opinion.. Mine (about the first listen haters) and yours (about my whole point of view) are different kind of opinions: are opinions about opinions.. And that's right where the trick is.. If I'm talking about something, I say "I like it", "I dislike it", etc; but when talking about someone who has judged something without really knowing that very same thing, then doing something about it (ignore it, which is fine, until the next thing happens) and after that saying they hate or love that something, I don't understand why I shouldn't express myself against that attitude, and say that what he/she is doing is not right for me; which is the same that saying that is wrong, for me..

About my posture itself, I see that is not clear yet.. My statement wasn't against those who think different in terms of how much they like the album, or whatever other thing; it was against those who think they know something when they haven't dedicated the enough time to that thing yet.. I mean, I for instance *hate* Just Let Me Breathe.. But I developted that feeling only after a few listens, a thing that, IIRC, you said you agree with.. I don't consider myself capable of proccessing DT's music at the very first time I'm listening to it.. I used to think, after the first two listens, that I hated TDEN, but then I decided to give it another chance and now I can't say I love it, but I do strongly like it.. I was wrong then, I admit it.. Now I think differently, and I know that before saying those kind of things ("I hate X", "is bs" and such) I should first give it a proper listen.. If not, I can easily say that I didn't like it and that I don't think I will, and that's it.. Not unnecessarily scatter hatred for something I should not be caring at all..

Love and hate are strong feelings as I see it.. And I could never feel them only after listen to one single album one time.. But ok, I know is not the common stuff to think..

[bosk1]

I don't understand why I shouldn't express myself against that attitude, and say that what he/she is doing is not right for me; which is the same that saying that is wrong, for me..

Because he/she is expressing an opinion about an album--a thing.  And they are just stating a subjective opinion about that thing.

In contrast, you are attacking a person by saying, "if you think X, there is something wrong with you." 

I am not making a judgment about you as a person.  I am, however, saying that your conduct in attacking other users here is unacceptable and will not be tolerated.  If you don't understand that, I'm not sure what else to tell you.  But if you don't abide by it, your posting privileges here will be suspended.

[King Postwhore]

You can say "I disagree with your thoughts on the album" but you can't say, "You've got to be an idiot for not liking this album."

[ToT-147]

I don't understand why I shouldn't express myself against that attitude, and say that what he/she is doing is not right for me; which is the same that saying that is wrong, for me..

Because he/she is expressing an opinion about an album--a thing.  And they are just stating a subjective opinion about that thing.

In contrast, you are attacking a person by saying, "if you think X, there is something wrong with you." 

I am not making a judgment about you as a person.  I am, however, saying that your conduct in attacking other users here is unacceptable and will not be tolerated.  If you don't understand that, I'm not sure what else to tell you.  But if you don't abide by it, your posting privileges here will be suspended.

I'm not attacking any users here, didn't quote anyone; just said something general, an opinion, about what to me is an excessive reaction by some to this particular album; but ok, if I'm not allowed to write those kind of things, I won't do it again.. FWIW, I do know and actually just pointed out the difference you made between a person and a thing, therefore the italics in my previous post; that we're both seeing and saying almost the same things, except the most important, is proof enough to me that this is just a disagreement..

You can say "I disagree with your thoughts on the album" but you can't say, "You've got to be an idiot for not liking this album."

(You might be joking, or not.. I'll answer as if you weren't)

Ok, I now strongly feel I'm talking to a wall here.. I didn't say "idiot" for starters, but neither I said something is wrong with those that don't like the album... or even hate it.. I don't think there's nothing wrong with them.. Just with those people that don't give, not in a whole year and a half, just another chance to the album and keep saying they hate it.. Is that so wild?..

[King Postwhore]

I'm not saying you did.  That was just an example I typed.  If you took it that way I'm sorry.


 If you come off strong sometimes what you type can be misconstrued. A good example was how you read my post.

[ToT-147]

Ok, yeah, maybe sometimes I do that and don't realize it.. Hard thing to write in another language as I said the other time, and I happen to be very obsessive in writing/talking to much about the same issue, even if is something not so important like this..

[Dublagent66]

There's an old DTF proverb.  It goes like this.  "It's not so much what you say, but how you say it."  I ain't no angel either.  Been guilty plenty of times.  The subjectivity of music can be a difficult thing to get one's head around.

[ToT-147]

You mean *I* am not an angel?.. I thought I was..

[Renzo]

On topic: long live to BC&SL!..

Yes. 

[gm5k]

ADTOE is easily the most consistently great album, but TA has my favorite songs (sections may be a more appropriate term in some cases ) that they've done since 6DOIT outside of TCOT.  I think TA has some of DT's most creative songwriting ever.  It's just so spread out, and sometimes you can't help but want the brilliant creative moments to last longer.

[OpenYourEyes311]

ADTOE is easily the most consistently great album, but TA has my favorite songs (sections may be a more appropriate term in some cases ) that they've done since 6DOIT outside of TCOT.  I think TA has some of DT's most creative songwriting ever.  It's just so spread out, and sometimes you can't help but want the brilliant creative moments to last longer.

That's interesting, because I find that album VERY up-and-down. Very high highs, but very low lows. DT12, for my money, is the most consistent album of there's since Portnoy left, and probably since they signed to RoadRunner (although SC is pretty consistently good... but it does have Repentence).

[TheOutlawXanadu]

I've never taken the time to do this, but I think a "Best of the Roadrunner Years" playlist would actually be quite good. While the Astonishing songs may sound a little out-of-element, I think you could make it work.

[bosk1]

Certainly.  I've thought about that very thing.  And if I were to take my list from the previous page and make that into a playlist, I'd be pretty happy with it.

[MirrorMask]

Such a compilation should be on one or two discs? just to try my hand at it 

[Zook]

Would the songs be in order or all mixed up?

[gzarruk]

I've been thinking about the same thing for a while, now. I think it could be similar to the previous compilation they released (Greatest hit...and 21 other pretty cool songs), a two disc album showing different aspects of these albums on each disc.

I think I'll try to make one too 

[bosk1]

For fun, I just created a playlist based mostly on the tracks I listed earlier.  The problem with a lot of the songs is that they have long intro or outro parts that should be edited out for a playlist like this.  But I just did the best I could with it.  Flow is pretty good, other than the transition issues I mentioned:

1.  Dystopian Overture
2.  The Gift of Music
3.  In the Presence of Enemies I and II
4.  Behind the Veil
5.  The Count of Tuscany
6.  A Better Life
7.  Bridges in the Sky
8.  Constant Motion
9.  Along for the Ride
10.  A Nightmare To Remember
11.  Ravenskill
12.  Forsaken
13.  Outcry
14.  Beneath the Surface
15.  Our New World
16.  Illumination Theory

That's 3 songs per album, which is a pretty good representation (plus using Dystopian Overture as an "intro" track).

[Dublagent66]

No BAI in that list?  Shame on you!   

[bosk1]

Why would I want to include my least favorite song from that album?