Electric Guitar - Development

[wrighty]

This is a concept that I've thought about for a while, but was reminded of it last night while watching an AC/DC tribute band.

First generation electric guitarists I call level 1 - guys like Chuck Berry, Les Paul I suppose - don't really know much of them.

Then came Jimi Hendrix - he took playing up to level 2.  Others developed that, and guys like Page, Blackmore, Brian May, Alex Lifeson I'd call level 2+, with a bit of evolution after the Jimi revolution.

Level 3 came with Eddie Van Halen.  As for level 2, others developed and improved, Satch, Vai being two that spring to mind at 3+

Yngwie took playing to Level 4, and guys like Vinnie Moore, JP and Paul Gilbert came in at level 4+

No-one has reached level 5 yet.

Does this work for anyone else?  I'm sure there'll be differing opinions, and it's certainly not a statement that anyone playing at level 4 is better than those at level 3 etc.  But for me, the real gamechangers in electric guitar playing were Hendrix, then EVH, then Yngwie, and that's where we're at right now!

[Skeever]

I think a lot of the guys in "level one" were better, more knowledgeable, more dexterous, and more tasteful players (imo) than the guys you have in levels 2-5.

I'd take it a step further, and say that the players weren't game changers as much as the technology was. What would Les Paul sound like at 18 plugging into a Mesa Boogier rectifier? What kind of player would Petrucci before the age of hyper-compressed, digital tones?

[millahh]

I think there's a step 1.5 missing, for people like George Harrison & Eric Clapton...pre-Hendrix, but certainly their own distinct thing.

Curious how you'd slot in Robert Fripp, who is well outside of that continuum that you've described.

[axeman90210]

I think there's a step 1.5 missing, for people like George Harrison & Eric Clapton...pre-Hendrix, but certainly their own distinct thing.

Curious how you'd slot in Robert Fripp, who is well outside of that continuum that you've described.

I'd slot him right where you store anything else that helps people fall asleep at night

[jakepriest]

I'd put Tosin Abasi and Guthrie Govan above those you mentioned in 4+.

[bosk1]

I think there's a step 1.5 missing, for people like George Harrison & Eric Clapton...pre-Hendrix, but certainly their own distinct thing.

Curious how you'd slot in Robert Fripp, who is well outside of that continuum that you've described.

I'd slot him right where you store anything else that helps people fall asleep at night

If Satch and Vai are in the "3/3+" range, I'm not sure why Yngwie, Gilbert, etc. are in a different range.  Yngwie certainly brought a different style to the table than the others you mentioned.  But in terms of skill, technique, and innovation, he didn't really bring much to the table that was new and took things to a level beyond Satch and Vai.  I'm not seeing that one.

[Elite]

I'd put Tosin Abasi and Guthrie Govan above those you mentioned in 4+.

Me too.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

I think there's a step 1.5 missing, for people like George Harrison & Eric Clapton...pre-Hendrix, but certainly their own distinct thing.

Curious how you'd slot in Robert Fripp, who is well outside of that continuum that you've described.

I'd slot him right where you store anything else that helps people fall asleep at night

If Satch and Vai are in the "3/3+" range, I'm not sure why Yngwie, Gilbert, etc. are in a different range.  Yngwie certainly brought a different style to the table than the others you mentioned.  But in terms of skill, technique, and innovation, he didn't really bring much to the table that was new and took things to a level beyond Satch and Vai.  I'm not seeing that one.

This is kinda what I was thinking.  Malmsteen, Gilbert, Satch, and Vai have historically always been lumped together as far as generations of guitar heroes go.

[wrighty]

I think there's a step 1.5 missing, for people like George Harrison & Eric Clapton...pre-Hendrix, but certainly their own distinct thing.

Curious how you'd slot in Robert Fripp, who is well outside of that continuum that you've described.

I'd slot him right where you store anything else that helps people fall asleep at night

If Satch and Vai are in the "3/3+" range, I'm not sure why Yngwie, Gilbert, etc. are in a different range.  Yngwie certainly brought a different style to the table than the others you mentioned.  But in terms of skill, technique, and innovation, he didn't really bring much to the table that was new and took things to a level beyond Satch and Vai.  I'm not seeing that one.

I was thinking more about how Yngwie spawned a whole generation of imitators with his speed picking, arpeggios, use of classical phrases etc., whereas I always saw Satch and Vai as an evolution of EVH.  You could argue that Vai is in a category of his own, and perhaps he started another branch of 4 separate from Yngwie (In interviews, Yngwie moans about how just about every modern day guitarist has just copied him, except his mate Steve Vai who does different stuff). 

[wrighty]

I'd put Tosin Abasi and Guthrie Govan above those you mentioned in 4+.

Never heard of Tosin Abasi - I'll check him out.  I've seen a bit of Guthrie Govan on YouTube.  Are there any specific examples of 'level 5' playing you could link to for me?

[Architeuthis]

I think JP is all ready at level 5, even David Gilmour for his unique sound and incredibly smooth playing. Alex Lifeson is right up there too for his creativity alone..

[jakepriest]

I'd put Tosin Abasi and Guthrie Govan above those you mentioned in 4+.

Never heard of Tosin Abasi - I'll check him out.  I've seen a bit of Guthrie Govan on YouTube.  Are there any specific examples of 'level 5' playing you could link to for me?

CAFO is pretty much the quintessential Tosin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toLyXi2v2Fk
Or Wave of Babies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt-RoSzsEKA

[bl5150]

I think there's a step 1.5 missing, for people like George Harrison & Eric Clapton...pre-Hendrix, but certainly their own distinct thing.

Curious how you'd slot in Robert Fripp, who is well outside of that continuum that you've described.

I'd slot him right where you store anything else that helps people fall asleep at night

If Satch and Vai are in the "3/3+" range, I'm not sure why Yngwie, Gilbert, etc. are in a different range.  Yngwie certainly brought a different style to the table than the others you mentioned.  But in terms of skill, technique, and innovation, he didn't really bring much to the table that was new and took things to a level beyond Satch and Vai.  I'm not seeing that one.

I was thinking more about how Yngwie spawned a whole generation of imitators with his speed picking, arpeggios, use of classical phrases etc., whereas I always saw Satch and Vai as an evolution of EVH.  You could argue that Vai is in a category of his own, and perhaps he started another branch of 4 separate from Yngwie (In interviews, Yngwie moans about how just about every modern day guitarist has just copied him, except his mate Steve Vai who does different stuff).

Yngwie should go back and listen to his old stuff and try to copy himself as he has been releasing shite for a very long time 

Like Coz (and having lived through it too) I would have Malmsteen in the same level and time period , just a different branch.  If anything Malmsteen came before Satriani in the timeline too.   What Malmsteen did for neoclassical , Satch did for legato and mass market instrumental sales .  Vai made being weird cool      

[millahh]

I think there's a step 1.5 missing, for people like George Harrison & Eric Clapton...pre-Hendrix, but certainly their own distinct thing.

Curious how you'd slot in Robert Fripp, who is well outside of that continuum that you've described.

I'd slot him right where you store anything else that helps people fall asleep at night

Remind me to spill beer on you when you get back to your seat 

[wolfking]

I quite like the level system you outlined in the OP.  There's obviously some tweaks that could be put in but not bad.

Would anyone really want to listen to something level 5 or even 6 going by this?  How far can it go without being ridiculous.  I think MAB has some things to answer for too and is a key figure in the evolution of what is possible and acceptable in terms of guitar playing and acrobatics. 

Some artists should just take it back and listen to some of the old stuff.  Yngwie is also as you guys have said a key figure in what is possible, but he did it so well back then, and he has many imitators now.  As Brent said, he should go back and listen to his old stuff, cause what he is doing now is just him taking steps back but in a very bad way.

[Skeever]

Little disappointing that everyone seems to think the more shred, the more developed the player. I think you guys are still missing that maybe the difference is TECHNOLOGY, rather than SKILL. I'm sorry, but there are so many musical situations where these "higher level" players would be played around a in a circle by cats who were around before Hendrix. Can guys like Tosin and Petrucci or Yingwie weedle-deedle-doo a scale the fastest? Sure.... But there are very basic music situations where you could put any of those guys and I imagine they would struggle to keep up with guys like Les Paul.

I know a place like this is going to be metal focused, but look at the bigger picture here. If prog metal shredders represent the peak of guitar playing development to you I invite you to consider that that particular style of playing is just one relatively small niche in a much wider world of guitar playing.

[Polarbear]

Little disappointing that everyone seems to think the more shred, the more developed the player. I think you guys are still missing that maybe the difference is TECHNOLOGY, rather than SKILL. I'm sorry, but there are so many musical situations where these "higher level" players would be played around a in a circle by cats who were around before Hendrix. Can guys like Tosin and Petrucci or Yingwie weedle-deedle-doo a scale the fastest? Sure.... But there are very basic music situations where you could put any of those guys and I imagine they would struggle to keep up with guys like Les Paul.

I know a place like this is going to be metal focused, but look at the bigger picture here. If prog metal shredders represent the peak of guitar playing development to you I invite you to consider that that particular style of playing is just one relatively small niche in a much wider world of guitar playing.

Excellent post! Agree with this 100%.

[King Postwhore]

Little disappointing that everyone seems to think the more shred, the more developed the player. I think you guys are still missing that maybe the difference is TECHNOLOGY, rather than SKILL. I'm sorry, but there are so many musical situations where these "higher level" players would be played around a in a circle by cats who were around before Hendrix. Can guys like Tosin and Petrucci or Yingwie weedle-deedle-doo a scale the fastest? Sure.... But there are very basic music situations where you could put any of those guys and I imagine they would struggle to keep up with guys like Les Paul.

I know a place like this is going to be metal focused, but look at the bigger picture here. If prog metal shredders represent the peak of guitar playing development to you I invite you to consider that that particular style of playing is just one relatively small niche in a much wider world of guitar playing.

Completely agree.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

Yeah, I totally didn't read it that way.  I don't know that anybody is saying shred = more developed.  I think maybe they're saying shred is a different type of development, a building upon the foundations of those that came before.  The shred players that a lot of us revere DO play fast, because they're able to, but that doesn't mean that if you put them in the midst of a blues jam with Buddy Guy, Eric Clapton, and god knows who else, that they wouldn't be capable of showing restraint.  That's part of why we revere them.  Their ability to shred AND understand when it's appropriate not to.

[wolfking]

Little disappointing that everyone seems to think the more shred, the more developed the player. I think you guys are still missing that maybe the difference is TECHNOLOGY, rather than SKILL. I'm sorry, but there are so many musical situations where these "higher level" players would be played around a in a circle by cats who were around before Hendrix. Can guys like Tosin and Petrucci or Yingwie weedle-deedle-doo a scale the fastest? Sure.... But there are very basic music situations where you could put any of those guys and I imagine they would struggle to keep up with guys like Les Paul.

I know a place like this is going to be metal focused, but look at the bigger picture here. If prog metal shredders represent the peak of guitar playing development to you I invite you to consider that that particular style of playing is just one relatively small niche in a much wider world of guitar playing.

Yeah, I don't think any of us said that shred is the sole focus on the discussion here, it doesn however play a big part.  A good point though, but can you give us some other examples of what you are saying then?

[wrighty]

Little disappointing that everyone seems to think the more shred, the more developed the player. I think you guys are still missing that maybe the difference is TECHNOLOGY, rather than SKILL. I'm sorry, but there are so many musical situations where these "higher level" players would be played around a in a circle by cats who were around before Hendrix. Can guys like Tosin and Petrucci or Yingwie weedle-deedle-doo a scale the fastest? Sure.... But there are very basic music situations where you could put any of those guys and I imagine they would struggle to keep up with guys like Les Paul.

I know a place like this is going to be metal focused, but look at the bigger picture here. If prog metal shredders represent the peak of guitar playing development to you I invite you to consider that that particular style of playing is just one relatively small niche in a much wider world of guitar playing.

Skill is part of it, sure.  And practice.  Classical musicians codified virtuosity on their instruments centuries ago - check out Paganini's caprices, or Czerny's etudes - but it's only recently that electric guitarists have bothered with things such as theory and practice.  At least as far as I can tell.  It's well documented that players like Steve Vai, Vinnie Moore etc put in 8-10 hours practice a day to develop their chops.  Does anyone think Jimi Hendrix did similar, or did he just make cool noises to impress the girls?

I'm not really talking about musicality here, which is extremely subjective in any case.  Of course I'd prefer to listen to Dave Gilmore rather than MAB, but I'm sure MAB could play the solo to comfortably numb, whereas Gilmore couldn't play 'No Boundaries'.

I've stuck to rock music because that's what I know, and I don't know much of that.  I'm aware that Al Di Meola is a big influence on players like Vinnie Moore and JP, and that Eddie Van Halen was a big fan of Alan Holdsworth, but I really don't know much of the jazz world, let alone any other genres of electric guitar playing.

As for Tosin Abasi being at level 5 - I'll stick to level 4 and below for my listening choices I think 

[Art]

Yeah, I totally didn't read it that way.  I don't know that anybody is saying shred = more developed.  I think maybe they're saying shred is a different type of development, a building upon the foundations of those that came before.  The shred players that a lot of us revere DO play fast, because they're able to, but that doesn't mean that if you put them in the midst of a blues jam with Buddy Guy, Eric Clapton, and god knows who else, that they wouldn't be capable of showing restraint.  That's part of why we revere them.  Their ability to shred AND understand when it's appropriate not to.

I agree, but i think Malmsteen is the exception. He would shred like there's no tomorrow, even in this situation. 

[bosk1]

I quite like the level system you outlined in the OP.  There's obviously some tweaks that could be put in but not bad.

Yeah, I should have said this as well.  Despite that I might disagree with some of the specifics, the idea behind this thread and the original post is pretty cool to discuss.

Would anyone really want to listen to something level 5 or even 6 going by this?  How far can it go without being ridiculous. 

Well, but the thing is, we don't really know what level 5 and 6 look like.  I mean, before EVH started tapping and using some traditional classical runs in his electric guitar playing, nobody really thought of doing that, and I suspect the thought of it would have seemed "ridiculous" to many.  But now, those are pretty much standard rudiments of modern rock guitar playing.  If all we are talking about is levels of shredding, then yeah, you can only go so far without it being ridiculous.  But as the last few posts have elucidated, that's not really what we are talking about. 

Little disappointing that everyone seems to think the more shred, the more developed the player. I think you guys are still missing that maybe the difference is TECHNOLOGY, rather than SKILL. I'm sorry, but there are so many musical situations where these "higher level" players would be played around a in a circle by cats who were around before Hendrix. Can guys like Tosin and Petrucci or Yingwie weedle-deedle-doo a scale the fastest? Sure.... But there are very basic music situations where you could put any of those guys and I imagine they would struggle to keep up with guys like Les Paul.

I know a place like this is going to be metal focused, but look at the bigger picture here. If prog metal shredders represent the peak of guitar playing development to you I invite you to consider that that particular style of playing is just one relatively small niche in a much wider world of guitar playing.

As others (including me, in this same post) have said, it isn't really about metal shredding.  That's part of it.  But we are basically talking about the evolution and development of rock guitar playing.  Of course there are plenty of other styles out there.  But that isn't really the focus of this thread.  And even within the universe of rock guitar, I think we are focusing more on style and innovation than simply the ability to shred.  Sometimes, that innovation comes from incorporating other styles.  Sometimes, it comes from creating something unique and new.  Sometimes, it is a blend of both.  Heck, even though more "acoustic" than electric, tell me Rodrigo Y Gabriela aren't rock guitar innovators:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-qgum7hFXk  And that has nothing to do with shred.  Overall, I don't disagree with what you said in your post.  But I think your post misses the point of what is actually being discussed here.

[wrighty]

Would anyone really want to listen to something level 5 or even 6 going by this?  How far can it go without being ridiculous. 

Well, but the thing is, we don't really know what level 5 and 6 look like.  I mean, before EVH started tapping and using some traditional classical runs in his electric guitar playing, nobody really thought of doing that, and I suspect the thought of it would have seemed "ridiculous" to many.  But now, those are pretty much standard rudiments of modern rock guitar playing.  If all we are talking about is levels of shredding, then yeah, you can only go so far without it being ridiculous.  But as the last few posts have elucidated, that's not really what we are talking about. 

This is what I'm talking about.  EVH wasn't the first to fret notes with his picking hand - Billy Gibbons and Brian May, and no doubt many others did it long before 1978 - but I think it's fair to say that on hearing 'Eruption' most guitarists' jaws would have hit the floor and it changed things forever.  Same with Yngwie - others had put classical runs in their playing, he lauds Ritchie Blackmore as a big influence, but his first album had legions of guitarists listening with open mouths to 'Far Beyond The Sun', and then going on to try and play Bach and Paganini at speed.  He started shredding.

There may never be a level 5 - perhaps it's all been done.  Maybe that was being said in (real world) chatrooms in 1977!

[bosk1]

Would anyone really want to listen to something level 5 or even 6 going by this?  How far can it go without being ridiculous. 

Well, but the thing is, we don't really know what level 5 and 6 look like.  I mean, before EVH started tapping and using some traditional classical runs in his electric guitar playing, nobody really thought of doing that, and I suspect the thought of it would have seemed "ridiculous" to many.  But now, those are pretty much standard rudiments of modern rock guitar playing.  If all we are talking about is levels of shredding, then yeah, you can only go so far without it being ridiculous.  But as the last few posts have elucidated, that's not really what we are talking about. 

This is what I'm talking about.  EVH wasn't the first to fret notes with his picking hand - Billy Gibbons and Brian May, and no doubt many others did it long before 1978 - but I think it's fair to say that on hearing 'Eruption' most guitarists' jaws would have hit the floor and it changed things forever. 

Yup, exactly.  And when I said "nobody thought of doing that," I meant that nobody really did it much and made it a signature part of their sound.  Eddie took those techniques and made people notice them and made them near indispensable rock guitar techniques.  And that is so often what happens with "innovators" in almost any field or discipline.  It isn't necessarily that they have a "new" idea--they just take add in something that isn't yet mainstream and make people take notice. 

[Skeever]

I guess my problem with the OP then is that it assumes players like Petrucci are the pinnacle of rock/metal playing, with a big question mark for where guitar playing could have possibly gone from there. I love Petrucci, and his skill is undeniable, but there is a lot that fits into the rock/metal category that he barely touches.

It seems to me that many rock guitar players these days seem to favor vintage tones, lower gain amps and sumptuous amounts of delays and reverb, and lots of clean compressed licks that often utilize taps and other techniques. There's also the broad usage of alternate tunings these days, which the likes of Petrucci has never really dabbled in. This all stems from punk rock, grunge, and more experimental players like Johnny Greenwood. That level of rock guitar development isn't captured at all in the tiers, which just follow a line of good rock soloists from Les Paul to Petrucci.

So if we're talking the development of "rock solo proficiency" from Gen 1 - Gen 5, I have no qualms with the thread, but if we're talking about the development of rock guitar in general, I just think the OP is missing a whole separate branch which has produced some of the most exciting players of the day.

[wolfking]

I guess the thing to take into consideration is that there is probably a lot of subjectivity in the topic itself also but a very interesting topic and discussion.

[PowerSlave]

Michael Schenker and Uli Roth should always be mentioned in a topic like this. Both were immensely influential to the development of the guitar in the hard rock genre'.

[Architeuthis]

Alex Skolnick deserves an honorable mention in this discussion. 

[Stadler]

Little disappointing that everyone seems to think the more shred, the more developed the player. I think you guys are still missing that maybe the difference is TECHNOLOGY, rather than SKILL. I'm sorry, but there are so many musical situations where these "higher level" players would be played around a in a circle by cats who were around before Hendrix. Can guys like Tosin and Petrucci or Yingwie weedle-deedle-doo a scale the fastest? Sure.... But there are very basic music situations where you could put any of those guys and I imagine they would struggle to keep up with guys like Les Paul.

I know a place like this is going to be metal focused, but look at the bigger picture here. If prog metal shredders represent the peak of guitar playing development to you I invite you to consider that that particular style of playing is just one relatively small niche in a much wider world of guitar playing.

I agree.

I love me some Yngwie, I really do, but I tend to think that the REAL innovation in his playing was done by ...  Ritchie Blackmore.   He didn't shit the turd, he polished it.

So to speak. 

[Stadler]

As for EVH, I was there, and you can't over-estimate how unique that was at the time.   

There are a ton of guitar players where you hear them the first time and you go "Wow, that was neat."  "That sounded cool." or "That was pretty excellent."

There are only a very select few - can only name one or two - where you stop what you're doing and go "What the fuck was THAT?"   Eddie is that guy. 

[bosk1]

Michael Schenker and Uli Roth should always be mentioned in a topic like this. Both were immensely influential to the development of the guitar in the hard rock genre'.

Alex Skolnick deserves an honorable mention in this discussion. 

Not at all.  The point isn't to mention every single influential rock guitar player.  How would you even do that?  The point is that the OP picked a few that he feels are representative of each phase.  No particular player "needs" or "deserves" to be mentioned in the discussion.  It isn't about that.

As for EVH, I was there, and you can't over-estimate how unique that was at the time.   

There are a ton of guitar players where you hear them the first time and you go "Wow, that was neat."  "That sounded cool." or "That was pretty excellent."

There are only a very select few - can only name one or two - where you stop what you're doing and go "What the fuck was THAT?"   Eddie is that guy. 

Yup.  True.  And I'll repeat a story that was told to me years ago from the guys in Y&T (I forget now whether it was Joey or Dave) in case you haven't heard it.  Van Halen were as yet a relative unknown and hadn't even been signed, and were set to open for Y&T.  I'm not sure if this was THE gig where they were discovered and then signed, or if that was a subsequent one.  But in any case, the guys in Y&T had no clue who this opening band were and thought the name sounded funny.  Joey Alves went and watched their set.  He then excitedly came back to the dressing room with Eddie in tow and began raving about his playing.  Dave Meniketti, Phil Kennemore, and Leonard Haze didn't seem all that interested.  Then Eddie plugged in and started playing.  Jaws were left on the floor.

[KevShmev]

Prior to the release of their first album, EVH had the rep for always turning his back to the audience whenever he would tap, because he didn't want anyone to see what he was doing and do it on record before he could.  Not that he was the first tap, but he took it to a level never seen before.

[Mosh]

People like to point out that Steve Hackett and Ace Frehley were already tapping, which is true, but if you watch their tapping and then listen to EVH there's no comparison. It's also not just the tapping. The huge guitar tone blows away anything else from the same time.