The Queensr˙che Discography Thread

[Cruithne]

Blood was another filler song for me, very odd and interesting track though. 

Blood is one of the tracks that really does sound unfinished to me. There's some nice ideas in the song, but I find the chorus to be atrociously bad.

[Kwyjibo]

Tribe for me is the low point in their career. It’s an utter lifeless and boring experience with mostly mid-tempo songs plodding along and often times not even a solo to grab attention. The contributions of DeGarmo aren’t helping either.

Maybe it is because the record is and sounds unfinished.

The Art Of Live is just shit. I only own the audio cd and even that were some bucks better spent on something else.

Queensryche invested heavily in recording technology prior to the 2003 tour. They recorded many (if not all) the shows supporting Tribe.

Reading this I got to wonder what they did wrong. The sound of the audio cd is shit and Geoff Tate is simply out of key on some of the songs. If they recorded a lot of shows they could have chosen versions of songs where Tate was better. Or does this mean that Tate sang off-key every night?

After this snoozefest I was ready to give up on QR.

[wolfking]

Tribe for me is the low point in their career. It’s an utter lifeless and boring experience with mostly mid-tempo songs plodding along and often times not even a solo to grab attention. The contributions of DeGarmo aren’t helping either.

Maybe it is because the record is and sounds unfinished.

The Art Of Live is just shit. I only own the audio cd and even that were some bucks better spent on something else.

Queensryche invested heavily in recording technology prior to the 2003 tour. They recorded many (if not all) the shows supporting Tribe.

Reading this I got to wonder what they did wrong. The sound of the audio cd is shit and Geoff Tate is simply out of key on some of the songs. If they recorded a lot of shows they could have chosen versions of songs where Tate was better. Or does this mean that Tate sang off-key every night?

After this snoozefest I was ready to give up on QR.

You sound surprised that this could be a possibility? 

[Kwyjibo]

Yeah, a little bit.

I know that Tate's singing was deteriorating for a long time, but I always had the impression that the really bad singing started later. And some mentioned above that he sounded good on the 2004 tour. And it's not that he didn't have the range anymore, I knew that, but there are several songs where he just sings off key and it's really cringeworthy.

Who decided to put this out as it is? It would be easy to look for better performances (and there had to be some) or to do some editing in the studio.

[wolfking]

I'd have to watch the DVD again but the video in that sepia tone was just a true WTF moment.  I don't remember the performances being as bad as you say but I can't remember either.  You can tell even on Live Evolution Tate's range was really starting to go then and obviously declined over the years.  I thought the performances on this were alright from memory but could be way off.  Listening to Tribe again today as I said earlier, makes me wonder why I thought it was as good as I thought back then.

[Samsara]

To my ears, Tate was a bit spotty on the Tribe tour (which is when Art of Live was captured). He began singing much better on the tour supporting Art of Live, and that continued through the dates supporting Judas Priest in 2005 (where he sounded pretty damn good, actually).

However, Tate was not out of key a lot on the Tribe tour. I just think the recordings used for Art of Live were total crap. The credits show Eddie Jackson as supervising the audio, and Susan Tate producing. To my knowledge, neither ever filled those roles before. This was a "do it yourself" project that Sanctuary, in its last gasp as a label, put out, and it bombed.

My guess is, Sanctuary gave them some money to film and produce it, and Queensryche gave them it with as little work done as possible to fulfill the commitment. But again, that's a guess. They did have the best of intentions, as it was marketed initially as being full color with 5.1 surround sound. Obviously, that didn't happen, and it has been sort of a black mark/wtf moment in their career for sure.

[bosk1]

A bit more commentary on these two releases from me...

Tribe marked a big shift for me.  HITNF was different, but different in a way I could connect with, and I liked that a lot.  Q2K was something I clearly did NOT connect with in the same way.  But I knew I didn't like it and I knew why.  And it was the band trying to do something different and just missing the mark.  I guess it's just easy to put Q2K in a box, take the few things I like about it, and just disregard the album as a whole.  Tribe was something different from that.  Tribe had a lot of signature Queensryche back in it.  There is a lot of layering and nuance in the music, even though there is a lot missing as well.  The things I liked about it jumped out immediately.  But beyond that, there wasn't anything beneath the surface that hooked me later, and the album thus did not age well or have much staying power. 

One of the biggest issues I had with the album was the lyrics.  Queensryche had always taken on social issues.  When I came to the band, during the Mindcrime and Empire era, they were tackling social issues, politics, and a host of other things with both guns blazing.  And frankly, even where I could tell I differed markedly from what they were selling, I could still embrace what they were doing.  To me, Tribe is a BIG departure from that.  In the past, the band could take on a serious topic, dig deep into it, and take a position, but somehow have me come away feeling like they were making me think, but not telling me WHAT to think.  With Tribe, I just felt like things had shifted and crossed the line.  Now, the topics Geoff were singing about were still the same types of things, but he came across as sanctimonious and preachy.  For the first time, I felt like I was having a viewpoint rammed down my throat.  And the thing is, when I take a deep look at the lyrics, they don't really seem all THAT different than the stuff from the early days.  So I'm not sure what it is.  Maybe it was my own changing and growing as a person and where I was at on some of these issues.  Maybe it was the fact that Geoff's lyrics, which were replete with themes of withholding judgment while simultaneously having an undercurrent of "I searched for truth and became enlightened, and now I know better than the masses, so listen to ME" that came across as hypocritical.  I'm not sure.  But I know it felt different and was something that would continue from this album forward.  And I also know I'm not the only one to feel this way, even if I may not be able to put my finger on exactly why.  But that subtle shift I was feeling was a turnoff.  And for something like music that inspires emotional connections and responses, it is something that made me start to incrementally distance myself from the band.

A bit more on The Art of Live:  If I had to pick one glaring flaw, it is Geoff's vocals.  I had heard him sound strained or miss notes here and there in the past.  But this was different.  He was singing from his throat and was often off-key, as others have mentioned.  And I know that it wasn't something limited to the shows they chose for the release.  Geoff was often off like this for a good portion of the tour cycle.  My first exposure was the performance of Open on the Orlando Jones show.  That song is fantastic, and I was really looking forward to seeing a live version.  I was shocked with how Geoff sounded.  He was clearly singing from the throat and could not stay on key.  And this was baffling considering that it is a pretty easy song to sing, and the range shouldn't be a challenge at all.  The two shows I saw and the bootlegs I heard were a bit better, but still strained and frequently off-key.  Unfortunately, this live release is plagued by those types of moments.

[Mladen]

Whereas I found Hear in the now frontier rather average, and Q2K hardly even average, Tribe got me going. This is a good album.

Open grabbed me immediately and the title track is also fantastic, the riffs and the verses are so sinister. I also liked Losing myself as well, it might not truly be a Queensryche song but it rocks and entertains. I'm not sure what's to dislike about Blood - I find the beat and the subdued vocals in the chorus very cool, it would also be one of my favorites.

The album has its share of mediocre songs, but overall, it's a good collection of tracks. It helps that the album isn't very long so there's less chance for filler material. I don't think it's DeGarmo's participation that sold the album for me, it's just that the songwriting is better. This album would probably stand behind the big five on my list - not right behind, but close enough.

[njfirefighter]

Whereas I found Hear in the now frontier rather average, and Q2K hardly even average, Tribe got me going. This is a good album.

Open grabbed me immediately and the title track is also fantastic, the riffs and the verses are so sinister. I also liked Losing myself as well, it might not truly be a Queensryche song but it rocks and entertains. I'm not sure what's to dislike about Blood - I find the beat and the subdued vocals in the chorus very cool, it would also be one of my favorites.

The album has its share of mediocre songs, but overall, it's a good collection of tracks. It helps that the album isn't very long so there's less chance for filler material. I don't think it's DeGarmo's participation that sold the album for me, it's just that the songwriting is better. This album would probably stand behind the big five on my list - not right behind, but close enough.

You and I seem to have the same general idea on this record. Obviously not as good as Warning through PL, but yes I would put it above HITNF and Q2K for sure, and better than the next few albums to come until the S/T 2013 release. Good collection of tracks and just right time length wise Agreed 

[Samsara]

Back with One Foot in Hell Tour (2004-2005)

After the Tribe and Art of Live tour cycles finished, it wasn't long before Queensryche was back on the road. The band decided to revisit a full production of Operation: Mindcrime, doing a tour consisting of two acts – a “greatest hits” hour, followed by a brief intermission and then a performance of the legendary concept record.

At the time, the tour was a bit of a head-scratcher for some fans. Back in the day, after the Building Empires tour, the band had said it wouldn't perform Operation: Mindcrime in its entirety again. However, 12 years later, a lot had changed for Queensryche. After a bunch of unsuccessful records, Queensryche once again found itself without a label and looking for direction. On top of that, allegedly (this could be in the band's 2012 lawsuit declarations, I have not checked) Queensryche got sued by Japanese promoters for cancelling the 2001 tour, and it was rumored they had a hefty settlement to pay.

It was also around this time period that Susan Tate assumed full control of managing Queensryche (it may have been a year later, but it was in this era at some point). So, for a variety of reasons, Queensryche decided to capitalize on Operation: Mindcrime's popularity, using it to help rebuild the band's name, and likely help pay off some debt.

The tour was a huge success on every level. Queensryche sold out large theaters across the United States, as fans flocked to the shows in droves to see Operation: Mindcrime performed. Generally speaking, this began one of the most financially profitable eras in Queensryche's history. During the run, it was at some point decided that Queensryche's next album would be conceptual. Those discussions led to doing a sequel to Operation: Mindcrime.

Editor's note: I said this in a previous write-up, but it is necessary to repeat it. A marketing plan was created to build up attention and suspense for Operation: Mindcrime II by telling anyone who would listen that it was “always planned” to do a sequel to Operation: Mindcrime. THIS IS NOT TRUE. In fact, in all interviews, whenever the band was asked the question about a “Mindcrime 2,” they definitively stated there would be no sequel, it was a complete story (this was through 2004 and into 2005). It was only afterward, once Tate had decided to press forward with the idea, that the story was concocted about Queensryche planning to do a sequel right after 1988, and that they ultimately went another path, etc. That's simply inaccurate and an attempt to re-write history to better serve the band's marketing strategy for 2005-2007.

Simply put, Operation: Mindcrime II was all about money. The band owed money to pay off debts (see Japanese  tour comments above), they needed a record deal, and a sequel to Operation: Mindcrime would help solve those issues -- simply another record would not. So, Queensryche decided to do the sequel, and Rhino Records signed them to a three-album deal on the strength of that plan in 2005.

Come spring 2005, Queensryche (at the conclusion of the Back with One Foot in Hell tour) agreed to serve as direct support for Judas Priest on that band's 2005 tour. The tour was notable as Queensryche played a very “metal” set, pulling out some songs such as “Surgical Strike,” “En Force,” “The Whisper” and a medley of songs from the EP. The band also mostly avoided all songs from Operation: Mindcrime, performing only “The Needle Lies.” Queensryche, did, however, debut a new song, “I'm American,” announcing it as a song from Operation: Mindcrime II. The aggressive tune, featuring a blistering solo by Wilton and Stone, was very well received by most audiences.

Following the tour with Judas Priest, Queensryche went out on another headline tour in September and October 2005, basically reprising the Back in One Foot in Hell format.

At this point, you may be wondering how Queensryche was writing and recording Operation: Mindcrime II, given they had been out on the road. The record was being written by Jason Slater of Snake River Conspiracy. Slater was out on the road with Queensryche for part of 2005 (working with the band behind the scenes), and when he wasn't, he was going over initial ideas with Tate by sharing files via email of songs he had written.

Operation: Mindcrime II (2006)



Geoff Tate – Vocals
Mike Stone – Guitars
Michael Wilton – Guitars
Eddie Jackson – Bass
Scott Rockenfield – Drums

Produced, mixed, and engineered by Jason Slater

Writing Sessions

As mentioned previously, Queensryche had been on the road most of 2005, leaving producer Jason Slater doing most of the heavy lifting, music writing-wise, for Operation: Mindcrime II. Once the band got off the road, writing continued at Geoff Tate's house, as his basement was turned into a makeshift writing studio. According to Slater, Tate would come up with an outline, and then need a song for a particular scene that was based off a certain emotion. Then Slater and Mike Stone (who were staying at Tate's) would come up with the songs to match those emotions.

Once the music was decided upon, Tate would take that, disappear upstairs and come back eventually with lyrics. Much of Operation: Mindcrime II was written in this manner. Writing sessions for Michael Wilton were set up for him to contribute, which produced the basic riffs in what would eventually become “Murderer?” and “The Hands.”

Editor's Note: As was publicly revealed years later during the Queensryche lawsuit, there are differing statements on what went on, writing-wise, for Operation: Mindcrime II. In a nutshell, Wilton claimed he showed up for sessions to find the material already written and was quickly made to feel uncomfortable and unwanted. On the other hand, both Tate and Slater have said that Wilton showed up and didn't contribute anything.

There was also talk that allegedly Tate didn't write all the lyrics himself and that a ghost writer helped write some of the story. No one REALLY knows what is 100 percent accurate with the songwriting, but, like everything in life, the truth is probably in the middle somewhere.

What cannot be understated however, was just how critical both Slater and Stone were to Operation: Mindcrime II. Without them, the record (or any record by Queensryche during this period) likely does not get made.

Recording Sessions

Operation: Mindcrime II was recorded at Tate's house, and at Jason Slater's studio in Palo Alto, Calif. Assisting Slater during the sessions was guitarist Mitch Doran. Ashif Hakik did the orchestration on the album.

Vocals were recorded by Geoff Tate, Pamela Moore (various songs throughout the album, including the closer, “All the Promises”) and the late Ronnie James Dio (featured as the character “Dr. X” on “The Chase”). Tate's daughter Miranda also sings background vocals on “The Hands.” Rhythm and lead guitars were recorded by Mike Stone. Eddie Jackson recorded some bass, but not all, on the album.

As for the rest of Queensryche, some of it is a mystery. Drum-wise, allegedly Scott Rockenfield recorded his drums at home. But Jason Slater has also said that allegedly the performance wasn't nearly as intricate as needed. As a result, some of the drums are completely removed and re-programmed by Slater. Drummer Matt Lucich also recorded some of the drums. The extent of which that Rockenfield appears on the album is a mystery.

Slater, being a bassist, also recorded bass and some guitar tracks on the record. Allegedly, Mitch Doran wrote and recorded the guitar solo in “Murderer?” Wilton's recorded parts are allegedly minimal, consisting of the riffs in “Murderer?” and “The Hands,” along with some of “Hostage,” and perhaps the solo in "I'm American" (unconfirmed). Eddie Jackson recorded bass as well, but there is a mix of both his and Slater's playing on Operation: Mindcrime II.

“Hostage,” discussed earlier as meant for Tribe, was mostly re-recorded. The biggest change from the Tribe demo version to the final version was the addition of courtroom effects to make the tune become a “flashback” scene for Operation: Mindcrime II, and of course, the removal of Michael Wilton's initial solo, which was replaced by a slower, harmonized solo that was recorded by Mike Stone.

The Story and Songs

Stylistically, Operation: Mindcrime II is more of a Broadway-styled rock opera, as opposed to the heavy metal concept album that the original Operation: Mindcrime is. Operation: Mindcrime II leads off with Nikki being released from prison after 18 years of incarceration. Once he's a free man, Nikki is obsessed with getting revenge on Dr. X, particularly as the latter has grown rich and powerful while Nikki has been locked away.

Each song is a “chapter” or “scene” in the story. Ultimately, at the climax, Nikki confronts Dr. X, and kills him in cold blood. The rest of the story is Nikki struggling with his guilty conscience over the murder, as the voice of the dead Sister Mary haunts him. There are references once again to addiction, and Nikki succumbing to the needle. The conclusion of the tale finds Nikki either blowing up the city (as depicted in the inner album art) in “Fear City Slide,” (you can actually hear an explosion sound effect at the end of the song if you raise up the volume) or, as “A Junkie's Blues” hints at, the explosion could be Nikki flat-lining in a drug overdose. The final track, “All the Promises” is a duet between the dead Nikki and the dead Sister Mary, as his consciousness fades away.

Song-wise, with new writers in the fold, the idea was to capture the spirit of the original Operation: Mindcrime. The sequel does that, using motifs from various songs from the orignal album into Operation: Mindcrime II. If you listen closely in “The Hands,” and “A Junkie's Blues,” you'll hear some familiar callbacks.

The album isn't quite a throwback, however. "Re-Arrange You" is completely driven in the verses by orchestration, which isn't something Queensryche had done previously. The song is aggressive throughout and ramps up further in the chorus when the guitars come in. But it certainly has a unique sound for the band. In addition, the legendary Ronnie James Dio takes up lead vocals on "The Chase" with Tate, marking the first and last time a singer of Dio's caliber shared lead vocal duties on a Queensryche record.

The one song, however, that doesn't quite sound like the rest, is “Hostage,” for reasons already discussed. But generally, Operation: Mindcrime II features a mix of Slater's and Stone's respective writing styles. For example, as explained to me by Slater, the tune “One Foot in Hell” was something Stone came up with. Originally, however, the song was a bluesy number. Slater took it and re-arranged it a bit to sound more like a traditional Queensryche song.

Videos were made for the songs "I'm American" and "The Hands." Both tied into the concept to help drive the story along.

Reception and Touring

Operation: Mindcrime II was received fairly well by both the press and the public. There was a  sizeable amount of fans that didn't believe a sequel should have been attempted. But despite that sentiment, critics lauded the record as a return-to-form for Queensryche.

One of the things revealed by Jason Slater was that he was very conscious of noting what fans wanted out of a Queensryche record, and he did his best to give it to them. From more aggressive songs to great guitar solos, he observed what fans were saying online, and tried to marry those wishes that with the material.

Operation: Mindcrime II was also the band's first financially successful record in quite some time (since Empire). Based on album sales, Rhino Records was able to recoup the advance they gave Queensryche to make the record in the first month of the album's release. (This was partly due to writing and recording at Tate's and also at Slater's studio.) So, following that, the revenue from album sales went directly to the band and songwriters. Succinctly put, Operation: Mindcrime II was a slam dunk, financially, for all involved.

Queensryche hit the road in summer 2006 to play the European festivals. The entirety of Operation: Mindcrime II was not performed, although various cuts from it were. Pamela Moore accompanied Queensryche on tour for it, singing background vocals and her lead vocals when needed.

The Operation: Mindcrime II tour began in earnest later that fall. It was, production-wise and length-wise the biggest tour Queensryche had undertaken in almost a decade. It featured complete performances of the original Operation: Mindcrime and Operation: Mindcrime II, and a two-song encore. The show spanned well over two hours with an intermission between the performance of each record.

The band's staging from across its history (as far back as pieces of Scott's drum riser from the Rage for Order tour) was taken out of storage and ripped apart to make new staging for the tour. There was a courtroom scene, a scene with Sister Mary committing suicide, and various other sets throughout the show. Most of the actors were members of the crew, and some fans got selected each show to sit in the “jury box” during “Hostage.”

Queensryche toured relentlessly in North America on the two releases through the end of 2006. They recorded three nights at the Moore Theater in Seattle on October 13, 14, 15 for a CD/DVD package that would be released in 2007.

Samsara's top-3 tracks from Operation: Mindcrime II – Re-Arrange You, Murderer, Signs Say Go

Mindcrime at the Moore (2007)



Vocals: Geoff Tate
Guitars: Mike Stone
Guitars: Michael Wilton
Bass: Eddie Jackson
Drums: Scott Rockenfield

Additional Vocals: Pamela Moore

In July 2007, Queensryche released Mindcrime at the Moore, its 2 CD/DVD (and eventually Blu-ray a couple years later) set that documented the 2006 Operation: Mindcrime and Operation: Mindcrime II tour. Recorded over three nights at the Moore Theater in Seattle in late 2006, Mindcrime at the Moore is 34 tracks in length, the set is also notable for the DVD carrying the one performance Ronnie James Dio did of “The Chase” with Queensryche as an extra/bonus cut on the special features of the disc. That took place in Los Angeles.

Queensryche didn't do a tour specifically to support the release in 2007. However, the band did play sporadic dates playing an abridged version of both Mindcrime albums in Japan, and a few other markets. The Japan dates are notable, as it is the first time Queensryche had played Japan since the Road to the Promised Land tour in 1995 (and I assume fences were mended with promoters given the 2001 shows the band did not fly to).

Editor's Notes: There were some issues with recording at the Moore Theater. Allegedly, the first night's performance was unusable. The second and third nights were used for the recording. Geoff Tate was also sick with a bad cold for the entire slate of shows. In addition, it should be noted that Mindcrime at the Moore was set to have the below art as its cover, before a decision was made to instead use the one that highlighted Geoff Tate.



Queensryche circa 2006-2007:



Next Up: 2007-2008 Tours and Take Cover

[MirrorMask]

Now that I read about it, I almost feel bad for first anticipating, and then moderately enjoying Mindcrime II 

I mean, such a legendary album should have never had a sequel, and if it had to have one, it should have all about the band members wanting to do it, not the band needing money and the first producer walking by writing it. It's like having someone else write Metropolis pt.2 for DT after some disliked albums!

Still, I like it, and the duet with Dio in The Chase is an absolute highlight.

The tour for this album finally gave me the chance to see them live for the first time. And what a way to start!!! I know, I know, people like me that love Mindcrime above anything else are a bit like people knowing only More than Words from Extreme, but c'mon, the (original, of course) album is just that amazingly mindblowingly good. So, from the second row (and eventually first in the second set, someone walked away), I managed to see the entire Operation Mindcrime album, the sequel of course, and then the first encore song was Jet City Woman, then Geoff said "One more?" and they played Empire. I thought that was it - Mindcrime at the Moore was already out by that time so I knew there were two encore songs, but Geoff asked once again "One more?"... and they played Silent Lucidity.

I know most of you are sick of the song by now, but we've all heard Fear of the Dark and Enter Sandman live for the first time once. So, the first time I see Queensryche I get their whole damn best album and Jet City Woman, Empire AND Silent Lucidity as encore... color me more than satisfied!!!

[bosk1]

I know most of you are sick of the song by now, but we've all heard Fear of the Dark and Enter Sandman live for the first time once. So, the first time I see Queensryche I get their whole damn best album and Jet City Woman, Empire AND Silent Lucidity as encore... color me more than satisfied!!!

Well, they may have been played to death, but they are still fantastic songs, so you'll get no grief from me.

[Dublagent66]

They are fantastic songs and personally I never get sick of O:MC.  Love that album.  However, O:MC2 was disappointing and after reading Samsara's write up, it doesn't surprise me that money was the reason they did it.

[Lowdz]

As I've said, QR were dead to me by this time. When I heard the stories that they were doing O:MII, I really didn't want them to do it. The original is my joint favourite album of all time and QR were now fucking shit. It was going to be awful.

I bought it, of course. I had to. And I didn't hate it. I even enjoyed some of it.
I was oblivious to the way it was made until I read the Slater interview over on Samsara's site, but it makes sense.
QR couldn't make a QR album, they'd proved that over recent years, but someone else had the sense to at least try.

I really liked the DIO duet.

I even went to see them on the tour at Manchester Academy - I'd had an operation on my wrist and was in a cast, and I drew a tri ryche on it that hot a lot of compliments on the night it was a good gig.

Still, it should never have been made.

[bosk1]

Slater is a VERY good writer.  I'll post a more detailed writeup later.  But I will say that one thing he figured out early on, and even more so on the next album, was how to write songs that sounded like Queensryche. 

[jjrock88]

During this time period, I was getting rejuvenated with Queensryche.  Hearing the set list, and performances of Queensryche from the Judas Priest tour really got my interest going along with knowing that a sequal to O:M was upcoming.  I didn't know any behind the scenes information, so I figured that the band was back on track and trying to turn the ship around towards a metal/hard rock direction.

Hearing "I'm American" from the Priest tour confirmed to me at least that the band was going in the right direction.  I figured at the very least, there would be one new track on O:M2 that was a fast ass kicker.

I saw them perform in September 2005 and I was very impressed.  This was the first time I saw the band (and only time) and I thought Geoff sounded better than he had in years.  Band sounded great, songs sounded great, and the tease of "Hostage" at the end of the show really got me pumped up for the release of O:M2.  This was probably the most excited I've been for an upcoming release.

When I bought it first day, I was impressed overall.  It was nice to actually hear QR play some heavier tunes along with having some guitar solos.  But I noticed the second half of the album was a major downgrade into the sap fest zone and mid tempo music they had been putting out the last decade.  So I guess you could say I was happy and slightly disappointed at the exact same time.  But I played the heck out of that cd for the fist month- Re Arrange You, Hostage, Murderer, Chase, Im American are the standouts.  But the novelty I guess wore off abit after that month, because I have probably only played that cd in its entirety maybe 10 times since that first month of playing.  Good album overall though.

[njfirefighter]

As for the record itself. I came into this record upon purchase, not knowing any of the behind the scenes background or controversy as to who actually wrote and played on it and what not, with the presumption that there wasn't much of a chance that it would be anything short of a let down, given the fact that the original is an untouchable, I thought they had brass balls to even try it. I gave it a fair opportunity, I listened to it several times almost trying to force myself to accept and like it. The end result of that.... I thoroughly enjoyed I'm American, The Hands, Murderer, and Hostage. I thought the Dio duet thing was half decent as well. Beyond that I thought everything else was sub par and of no real interest.

 As time went on, I continued to pull it out mainly for the songs aforementioned, but I would periodically skim through other songs or play it in it's entirety again, seeing if it resonated differently to me. To this day I stick with those four songs as my standouts, everything else on this record quite honestly would not be out of place on Frequency Unknown or Geoff's first two records of the trilogy, nothing really stands out and some of the faster tracks are just too cluttered with too much background noise going on.


This time period, however was awesome, from the standpoint of the live shows, both in quality and reception from the fans as well as the sheer number of shows the band were performing during this two year period of 2005-2006. I saw the band live during this two year stretch a total of ten times (seven times in 2005, and three times in 2006), eight of those being headlining shows, and two with the Priest tour. Every time I turned around they were back in my area. The shows I attended were:
2/1/05 Turning Stone Casino (Verona NY)
2/2/05 Northern Lights (Clifton Park NY)
2/5/05 Electric Factory (Philadelphia PA)   
6/10/05 PNC Arts Center (Holmdel NJ) w/ Judas Priest 
6/18/05 Tweeter Center (Camden NJ) w/ Judas Priest
10/6/05 State Theatre (New Brunswick NJ)   
10/7/05 Borgata Casino (Atlantic City NJ)
9/23/06 House of Blues (Atlantic City NJ)
11/3/06 Electric Factory (Philadelphia PA)
11/8/06 State Theatre (New Brunswick NJ)

Never before and never since have I seen the band, or any band for that matter, so many times in any where near a short span like this. So that part of it was very cool and was a memorable time to be a fan in my book.

The album itself. It's kinda right up there with HITNF, Q2K, and Tribe in my opinion. Each of those all contain on average about four or five songs that I fully enjoy and appreciate. This however would be the last album until the 2013 S/T album with Todd,  that I can say that about, as the last two with Tate (studio records, omitting Take Cover) to me contained very little to get excited about. Also after learning that OMII wasn't much of a total band effort and the background of the album, I have long given up any and all effort to try and appreciate the record further than where it already stands.       

[Kwyjibo]

When I first heard that QR wanted to make O:M II I was strongly opposed. It could only blow and kind of tarnish the legacy of the original.

When the album was dropped I thought it half decent, it wasn’t as terrible as I feared. O:M II starts strong but loses a lot of steam in the second half, it just goes on too long. And the story isn’t half as interesting as the original.

But the biggest problem I have with it is that it’s all about the money. I felt like the band lost their integrity. Up to this they seemed to do what they wanted to do, regardless of quality. I hated Tribe but I still thought it was what QR wanted to do at the time, so from an artistic standpoint is was okay to do it. The idea of O:M II just yelled sell-out to me. And the details of the writing and recording (although I didn’t know it at that time) just confirmed it.

I understand that they had bills to pay and everyone has to make a living, but for me this was a turning point. They were no longer a band with a vision but another one of those going through the motions. Doing records, going on tour but no longer really caring about their music.

And I think this is still the aftermath of DeGarmo leaving. Apart from the music and guitar playing, he was the one with the vision and he was the one to steer the band. After he left only Tate kinda tried to fill the void. The rest of the band just didn’t want to take any responsibility, they took their backseats and watched Tate running the band into the ground.

I never cared for Mindcrime At The Moore, never heard or saw it.

[Mladen]

Good God, what a terrible and messy way to make an album.

I'll give it a fair chance, though. What I think is important to realize is that, with every band, the chemistry and writing process change over time. Some members that were once very active take a back seat at some point and allow other people to come to the forefront. Some albums are band efforts, some are driven by one or two people in the band, some are influenced by outside writers. That's what makes a band history interesting. Judging from what I've known, this is the first album of the three-album-run of Tateryche - although Tate was also a dominant songwriter on Tribe and Q2K, this is officially the beginning of the era where the other band members got less important and Tate started hiring outside writers and performers.

[Lowdz]

Mindcrime at the Moore - I own it and I watched it a few times, but I haven't been back to it since release time. Not that it was bad, just if I want to play O:M I'll put on Livecrime, and I'm very unlikely to play the sequel.

The thing about playing both back to back is that it highlights the gap in quality. I thought O:M2 was ok, but only in comparison with the last few QR albums. It's a million miles from being on a par with the first. And it was always going to be that way.

The original had become more than just an album - it had become legendary. How can you hope to meet that kind of expectation?

[MirrorMask]

I feel you Lowdz, I enjoyed seeing Mindcrime II live, but once I have seen the original album, I was already happy. Everything else was just a bonus, not "wow, we're only halfway through the show"... I already got what I came for.

[Grappler]

In 2006, I was still really into the band and had no problem with them releasing Mindcrime II.   I don't feel that it tarnishes the legacy because it's not like the original album disappeared from our shelves when this one came out.  I loved the first 1/2 of the album - it had a nice flow and the songs harkened back to the Queensryche of old.  Geoff killed it on Rearrange you.  But the story was completely pathetic. 

Over time, I've come to really dislike the album.  I have no interest in a disc that doesn't feature performances from the band members and it seems more cheesy than anything else.  I think the production and sound of the disc is terrible too.

Mindcrime at the Moore - never bought the audio CD, but I did buy the DVD.  I eventually sold it a handful of years later when I purged a bunch of my collection.  I saw this tour once in Chicago and really enjoyed it, even though I had seen two of the Mindcrime 2005 shows, so half of it was the same.  It was my 9th overall Queensryche show.

This was the last time I saw Geoff Tate sing with QR, and the last time I saw the band for 7 years, having seen them on every album's tour since 1999.  I was getting burnt out on seeing them, hearing the same old schtick (Hey, you want to hear some old Queensryche......*band plays Walk in the Shadows*), and just getting into other bands and styles of metal. 

[TAC]

I will say that after taking the last two albums and live stuff off, O:M2 was the first QR album I bought since HITNF. I thought it might be interesting. It has been probably 10 years since I have listened to it. I remember that it was OK and then ran out of steam. But I also remember that they just didn't have the same magic.

[Cruithne]

So, the story of Operation: Mindcrime II goes something like this:

1) Nicky gets out of jail, thinks about going after Dr. X then decides to go after Dr. X.
2) Nicky kills Dr. X.
3) Nicky kills himself.

That's basically it. Oh yeah, he seems to have a dialogue with Mary a couple of times, which goes unexplained to the best of my knowledge (though I've not dug into that because it's hardly worth it).

Questions such as...
- How in the hell is a mass murderer out of jail so soon? (perhaps they only ever tied him to Mary's death and let him off with diminished responsibility due to the volume of drugs in his system... but we don't know because no-one thought to question Tate on it).
- Did Operation: Mindcrime work? Apparently Dr. X has watched his fortune grow, but come on, surely the point of Mindcrime was way more than Dr. X making a few extra bucks, it was to overturn the political establishment, put his own guys in charge and build political influence and power?
- Given Dr. X's increase in wealth, let's assume he has also built up that political power base that was surely the aim of the game, why is it that Nicky's release from jail has gone unnoticed and he seems to have been able to pretty much just wander up to Dr. X and do him in with no resistance???
- How/why are we hearing Mary's voice occasionally and why is Nicky seemingly unperturbed by this?
...are avoided/ignored.

Instead we find out that Nicky is an American (and apparently living in 1985 as he has a skinny neck tie???), he has one foot in hell, has the hands of a murderer, feels like he's a hostage to something (not sure what), laments losing a big chunk of life to prison time... then once he's done with Dr. X he's pretty sure he's done killing people, starts walking around in circles, wishes he could have his life back then decides to kill himself. Yay.

The irritating thing is that if you take the context of the original Mindcrime story away from it and just have a new story about someone getting out of jail, drifting for a while, trying to find meaning in a vendetta against the person who put him there, then losing meaning again after seeing through the vendetta and deciding that suicide's the only way out... then it'd probably not feel like such a shit excuse for a story. The big problem is that it's trying to be a character piece in the framework of much bigger story that's not addressed properly and leaves too many questions dangling leaving it seeming ill thought through.

Now, there are a few good songs on there and overall it's musically not bad. Hostage is a good song. The Signs Say Go/Re-Arrange You/The Chase trio is a good run, and the album closes superbly with Fear City Slide!

Oh wait... it doesn't close superbly with that one, we get an absolute clunker piece of nonsense finishing off the album instead

Also, it sounds like a good set of demos rather than a professionally recorded effort.

Overall: 5/10. Take the Mindcrime II label off it and record it properly and I might've rated it higher, but the whole thing just leaves a bitter aftertaste. Mindcrime is my favourite album of all time... this is so far off that standard it's not funny.

[bosk1]

Mindcrime II...

Yeah, this was an interesting time.  Forgive me, but I have a lot to say here.

Through the years, I hadn't really been plugged into the hardcore Queensryche community.  I considered myself a fairly hardcore fan, since they had been my favorite band for about a decade.  But I didn't really know that many who were more than casual Queensryche fans.  But in the run from Promised Land up through Q2K, a lot of fans had jumped ship.  I could be wrong, but I don't feel like they lost fans with Tribe.  I think that with that album, they pretty much just held course.  They definitely didn't bring many fans back.  But those that were still following the band seem to have generally found enough to like with that album that they didn't leave. 

Mindcrime II was different.  It created a genuine buzz in the hard rock community about this album.  Once it finally came out, I'm not sure it "won" a lot of fans back permanently into the Queensryche camp.  But it generated a ton of interest that got people to buy the album and come see the shows, and a lot of that from fans that had previously walked away from the band. 

My own take on the album is similar to the next Tate/Slater offering:  There is some REALLY good stuff going on, but so many bad decisions and missed opportunities as well that drag the album down. 

I remember hearing The Hands when it debuted, and for the most part, I couldn't be happier.  The "oooo! ahhh!" background vocals were cheesy and a bit out of place.  But aside from that, it is a really solid song.  And most importantly, it sounded like Queensryche.  AND it had just enough subtle callbacks/reprises to Mindcrime to make a positive connection to the original without that being overdone.  This song got me legitimately excited about Mindcrime II and the prospect that the band could actually pull off something credible. 

Let me once again say that I think Slater nailed it.  The dude really did an outstanding job of studying what made Queensryche sound like Queensryche, and bringing that to this album.  If his helping the band write an album could get them reconnected with their classic sound like this, I was all for it.  Of course, I had no idea at the time just how much the band was excluded.  That was a problem.  Another problem that would become more apparent on the next two releases is that, while Slater was doing a great job of channeling early Queensryche, he unfortunately did not carry enough influence to coax Geoff's best from him.  And for this album, that was fine. There are definitely some weak Tate moments.  But overall, I think Geoff was either in a place where the vocal deterioration wasn't hampering him as much, or he was self-motivated enough just by doing a Mindcrime sequel, or a combination of both that he mostly sounded pretty good on this album. 

This album's biggest weakness, to me, is a combination of the story and pacing of the album on the latter half.  And I mention those together because I think they fed each other.  One of the reasons the album takes the turn it does and loses so much momentum is because the story Geoff wrote called for that.  So Slater's hands were tied somewhat by that.  I mean, on its own, the concept is actually kind of cool:  Nikki is driven for revenge.  But the twist is that, once he has it, he is left empty.  And driven by that emptiness, the ghosts of his past, and his lost love, he is utterly consumed and destroyed.  On paper, that totally works.  But in execution, it fails.  The story just wanders a bit aimlessly toward the end.  And the love story takes the center stage and feels so out of place and...well, just dumb. 

To me, the album is OUTSTANDING through Re-Arrange You.  Speed of Light is really the only break in the pace, and I really like the vibe of that song and what it adds to the album.  The first sign of trouble is The Chase.  At first, I loved it.  I mean, it had Dio!  Come on!  But it was just so over the top and melodramatic that I feel it ultimately took away from the album more than it added to it, and that's a shame and a HUGE missed opportunity.  RJD doing a guest spot on your metal album should unquestionably be the high point.  Here, it fell flat.  And the stupid imagery from the live presentation that is forever burned into my mind didn't do the song any favors. 

From there, the album is really hit and miss.  There are still some high points.  But lots of lows as well.  Murderer? has some cool moments.  Circles is different, but interesting.  If I Could Change It All...just no.  An Intentional Confrontation is another one that had some cool moments that leaves me feeling like it could have been so much more.  A Junkie's Blues is a decent song.  And the orchestrated Anarchy X reprise is AMAZING.  But the album just seems to have wandered too far astray by this point to feel like it matters.  Kind of the same with Fear City Slide.  Pretty cool song.  But not strong enough to bring the album back.  Although if it ended here, or with some big instrumental reprise that somehow brought the story full circle, I think that would have made the album as a whole a lot stronger.  But instead, we end with...All the Promises.  I'll just say that, as I was revisiting the album this morning to do this writeup, I just turned it off a few seconds into this song.  I just couldn't be bothered.  I see what Geoff was trying to do.  But this is just NOT how you end your epic sequel to your epic concept album masterpiece.  I really hesitate to substitute my judgment for an artist's because the artist is ultimately in the best position to know what he or she wants to do to try to artistically realize his or her vision.  But I think ending the story this way was a huge mistake.  If Geoff viewed having a huge rocker or epic track as the closer as too cliché or predictable, I get that.  But at the end of the day, there's a reason concept albums typically end that way:  it works.  This ending, unfortunately, does not.  And that is why this album, overall, fails.  I mean, overall, I think it's a "good" album, at least from the standpoint of the quality of music.  The first half is really good and leaves me a satisfied Queensryche fan.  But as a concept/story, it just doesn't cut it.  And since it is all about the concept/story, that failure to execute drags it down as a whole. 

But do I like it or do I hate it?  That is actually really difficult to answer.  I think the answer is: both.  There are things I really like about it.  And I enjoy it overall when I revisit it (which I still do).  But it also has a stigma that I can't shake.  So it's a mixed bag.

This album was a calculated risk.  It was destined to pull fans back in and make money.  But it was also destined to disappoint.  It couldn't possibly have lived up to its predecessor just because that earlier album is so legendary.  I get that it was done out of necessity for the band's continued survival.  I can't criticize that too much, and if I'm in their shoes and someone pitches the idea to me, I would have said, without reservation, "yes, let's do it."  But I think it was a short-term gain and long-term loss because, to many, it really put a serious dent in the band's credibility, especially when the behind-the-scenes details eventually came to light.  And the way the writing went down, I think it caused irreparable harm internally that would fester and grow until the split. 

But the album did bring some commercial success and got the band out on the road and back into the conversation in the hard rock community.  This was a good thing.  I did not see the band on this tour cycle.  For whatever reason, it just didn't work out.  Coinciding with Take Cover, I got a copy of Mindcrime at the Moore courtesy of the band.  (more on that later when we get to that timeframe)  Presenting both Mindcrimes together was an interesting choice.  And the presentation itself I thought was pretty cool.  It was different.  But I felt that it worked and had some cool moments.  As someone else said, one perhaps unintentional negative consequence is that it highlighted the difference in quality between the two albums.  I can mostly agree.  But I don't think it was that much of a problem until the latter half of Mindcrime 2.  But one more serious thing I think it highlighted was that Stone was not the best fit for the band.  He is a heck of a player.  But I remember him being criticized by a lot of fans for not being true enough to the original solos when he soloed on songs.  I disagreed at the time and defended his right to put his own spin on things.  To me, the bigger problem was his shrill tone, and his overall stage presence, image, sound just didn't seem to quite mesh with the band as a whole.  The other subtle problem with Mindcrime at the Moore was the album/DVD cover.  As details of the band's inner workings had begun to be discussed more and more, that cover seemed to take on a different significance.  It was telling that the only band member on the cover was Geoff, and that he was at the center facing the fans.  That didn't sit right with a lot of us.  Partly because of the cracks that had begun to show in the band and because Mindcrime 2 ultimately fell flat once the initial hype and hysteria began to wear off, there were rumblings among the fan base that were anything but positive.  And what should have been a reinvigorating of the fan base was instead something that left many questioning the future of the band. 

[njfirefighter]

One thing I do remember about those live shows where both Mindcrimes were performed was the entire Mindcrime II set really tested the crowds patience. There were lots of yawns, bathroom breaks, bar runs, people deviating away from the music and conversing. It was definitely a bring down and mood killer with only a handful of high points. But was well worth it for the original album performance, the few best tracks from OMII and the encores. I remember being pretty damn bored and really having to force myself to stay interested and try to pay attention during the Mindcrime II sets, as I too was practically uninterested and nodding off.   

[bl5150]

One thing I do remember about those live shows where both Mindcrimes were performed was the entire Mindcrime II set really tested the crowds patience. There were lots of yawns, bathroom breaks, bar runs, people deviating away from the music and conversing. It was definitely a bring down and mood killer with only a handful of high points. But was well worth it for the original album performance, the few best tracks from OMII and the encores. I remember being pretty damn bored and really having to force myself to stay interested and try to pay attention during the Mindcrime II sets, as I too was practically uninterested and nodding off.

That was my experience too.   I got a hold of the album mostly because I was going to the shows but the album did little for me and so we had it all sussed out.  The OM1 set , then bathroom breaks and pass outs for McDonalds and came back for the encore 

I only listened to it a couple of times and that was my only album purchase between HITNF and the s/t with Todd.............pretty sad for a band that was all time Top 5 for me. 

[wolfking]

yeah I saw them on that tour and pretty much the same thing.  Once the Mindcrime 2 songs hit it was like a balloon getting deflated.  The air got pumped back in when the encores hit.  Surely the band recognized this.

I don't remember much from the album, just the first half being pretty good but the second half shithouse.

[romdrums]

At this point my interest in QR tanked.  I viewed OMII as little more than a Tate-fueled cash grab and the ultimate example of, "just because you can, doesn't mean you should."  The fact that it was largely written by outsiders and had little contributions from the actual band (although just how little the band had to do it wasn't fully known until later) was always disappointing to me, especially considering how much Wilton had to do with the original.  I thought the mix was bland and there was little that connected it to the original.  At this point, I had effectively moved on and didn't buy any QR until the self titled in 2013.

[bill1971]

I was excited about O:M2 coming out. Really enjoyed the album. Thoroughly loved the live show. Don't think I've heard the entire O:M2 in about 8 or 9 years. Too many fictional characters.

[King Postwhore]

This is where thr band fell off the earth for me.   I listened to it three or four times and I don't think I've touched it since.  I jumped back on board when Todd join the band.

[njfirefighter]

This is where thr band fell off the earth for me.   I listened to it three or four times and I don't think I've touched it since.  I jumped back on board when Todd join the band.

You sure as hell weren't alone. I think a large majority of the fan base that stuck around up to this point, shortly thereafter departed and continued to do so from 2007 through 2012's implosion, that is until 2013's resurgence and welcomed re-birth which have brought most of them back and deservedly so.   

[Dittomist]

I think Operation Mindcrime II is a very impressive and versatile album, but it sure was upsetting to learn that the founding members of the band had minimal contributions to the writing sessions. There were many moments that genuinely felt like a return-to-form for Queensryche. Obviously it was never going to be as jaw-droppingly epic as Operation Mindcrime, but it was just so nice to hear the band concentrating on heavy metal again.

In addition to the many frenetic guitar solos and aggressive tunes, it also made me happy to hear sound effects being employed again, and I loved the haunting atmosphere in If I Could Change it All (that ending gave me chills the first time I heard it). My other favorites are Hostage, All the Promises, The Hands, and Re-Arrange You (featuring Geoff's best vocals in many years).

[Mosh]

Mindcrime II is way better than it should've been or deserves to be. It's not great, but it's a major step up compared to some of what has come before. I actually have the CD for this and was familiar prior to the thread, but it's even more mind boggling in context of the band's history. I figured at least Tribe might build up to this quality wise, but turns out that's not really the case.

The album's biggest success is that the songs are pretty good. I didn't know the album was basically written by Slater, but he did a good job. I forgot how catchy some of the songs were, like The Hands and Re-Arrange You (I love the orchestral stuff). Musically it's far better than anything since HITNF. However, I will disagree with Bosk that Slater made it sound like Queensryche. I suppose at this point you could really argue about what that even means after so many stylistic changes, but I would expect a Mindcrime sequel to sound like Mindcrime. To me it sounds like a completely different band. I hear less progressive Metal and more early 00's Hard Rock and even Nu Metal. But it's a moot point, Slater wrote some good tunes.

And that's pretty much all the nice things I have to say about it. After Re-Arrange You, there are some really big WTF moments. Murderer is just a mess, The Chase is disappointing, and the rest just gets bogged down in mediocre songs that are obviously meant to move the story and not much more. The original Mindcrime also suffers from that toward the end, but it's such a brief decline. With Mindcrime II, pretty much the entire second half of the album is throwaway.

The story is awful. It's simple, uninteresting, answers questions that nobody asked, and even manages to wreck aspects of the original story. I think the live performance also retconned parts of the original? Been awhile since I watched that. Not surprising at all to learn that they mostly did this for financial reasons. I will say Fear City Slide is a bit of a hidden gem and a couple other songs have some OK moments.

Samsara, I have to say after reading about how involved DeGarmo was with the vocal melodies, his absence is felt so much more for me on these albums. I always thought something about Geoff's vocals on Mindcrime were off, and I still think that's partly due to his voice just not aging well, but the lack of captivating vocal melodies really stuck out to me on this listen. Tate is the MVP on the original Mindcrime but he owes a lot to DeGarmo. On Mindcrime II he's a weak link.

The production is so bad. It just sounds weak and flat. The drums might as well be a machine, again not surprised at all to learn there were problems with the drums. And honestly if it's true that Rockenfield's drumming wasn't intricate enough or whatever, his original takes must have been pretty bad because the final product is pretty average. Guitar sound is also bad. I can't really tell who's who as far as solos go, but some of the lead tones are just ugly. The rhythm tones aren't great either. The production in general is also muddy. Especially The Chase, Dio is almost buried at times.

Speaking of The Chase: I first heard the album around the time Dio died. He was an early discovery for me so I was a big fan of his before, but it was mostly limited to his work in the 80s. Dio's death inspired me to get into his back catalog more, especially Rainbow. After hearing masterpieces like Rising, I couldn't believe that Dio would appear on such a meh song. If you're going to get Dio on your track it can't be anything less than spectacular. I guess its place in the story is pivotal, but musically it just kind of seems like a throwaway. Still, a testament to his greatness, Dio turns in a great performance.

Overall, after all the bizarre twists and turns throughout Queensryche's history, Mindcrime II has to be the biggest head scratcher. There are aspects of it that are exactly what you'd expect, especially with the story, but it's also not nearly as bad as you'd expect either. This would've been the final nail in the coffin for a lot of other bands, but somehow it seemed to do a lot of course correcting for them too.

[MirrorMask]

I like The Chase, of course it's because of Dio, but I think he shines on that. "Believe me or not, you owe me! ("I owe you nothing!" ) - I gave your life a purpouse!!!" gets me everytime.