Iron Maiden Discography Thread: Senjutsu

[RodrigoAltaf]

No Prayer for me is Maidens fun throw away album.  I can chuck this album up and enjoy it all the way though.  Nothing boring or bland (sadly this cannot be said for the other 90's albums).   While none of the songs are classics, they do play surprisingly well together as an cohesive album.   I much prefer this over Fear of the Dark, which may have better high points - but Christ on a bike the bad songs on that album are utterly shite (and there are quite a few of them).

I'll also side with Mosh.  'Hooks in you' is perfectly decent (if you don't concentrate on the lyrics too much )

Totally agree with this. No Prayer is quite cohesive, if not the most inspired collection of songs. FOTD has some highs, but awful lows. Plus, the songs on No Prayer are short, so if you don't like anything, it goes by quickly.

[TAC]

I have to say though, Bruce talked a lot of BS in the 90s and even the early 00's. I don't trust a lot of what he says to be completely truthful. 

Bruce has always been full of BS. Full of it.

No Prayer for me is Maidens fun throw away album.  I can chuck this album up and enjoy it all the way though.   

Yeah, I don't have any issue with this. I enjoy it. But I'm also aware that for me, it's their worst collection of songs.

  I much prefer this over Fear of the Dark, which may have better high points - but Christ on a bike the bad songs on that album are utterly shite (and there are quite a few of them).

I can go 8 songs deep easy on FOTD. Unfortunately I can really only go 1 song deep on No Prayer.

[kaos2900]

I think I prefer Fear over Prayer as well.

[Mosh]

I have to say though, Bruce talked a lot of BS in the 90s and even the early 00's. I don't trust a lot of what he says to be completely truthful. 

Bruce has always been full of BS. Full of it.

Absolutely. But in the 90s especially so, to the point where many of his interviews aren't even really worth checking out. I think he has changed a bit since then. He did a ton of press for TBOS and came off more genuine than usual.

[TAC]

Bruce has always been my least favorite member of Iron Maiden. He just seems like such an ass. I felt like that in the 80's and I still kind of feel that way.

This thread will soon be approaching my double barreled Bruce epiphany in a "creative" sense. Though, I'll likely be away on vacation when it all does down. Figures.

[kaos2900]

Wow, I've never gotten an asshole vibe from Bruce.

[bosk1]

Fast forward to today and while I definitely see its flaws and why many dislike it, I have to admit I'm still surprised at just how much hate it gets. I put it on about the same level as Tattooed Millionaire: decent albums for what they are but definitely a departure from what made Maiden and Bruce great. If I want to hear classic Maiden, there's plenty of that out there. If I want something different, No Prayer can sometimes be a fun departure from what I'm used to (I also feel this way about other "controversial" albums, such as Kiss Unmasked).

Interesting that you say that, because I often find myself in the same boat.  That's why I truly love and appreciate albums like Hear in the Now Frontier and Risk.  I may have to check this album out after all.

[soupytwist]

Bruce has always been my least favorite member of Iron Maiden. He just seems like such an ass. I felt like that in the 80's and I still kind of feel that way.

I kind off know what you mean.  Certainly in the early days I felt he came off as a bit of a prima donna.  Surprisingly though he was really good on the radio when he hosted his Rock Show.   My opinion has changed now I think he's got a sly sense of humour, and is quite happy to stir things up - which can on occasion make him sound a bit like a dick.   He's certainly not scared of voicing his opinion!

[TAC]

Fast forward to today and while I definitely see its flaws and why many dislike it, I have to admit I'm still surprised at just how much hate it gets. I put it on about the same level as Tattooed Millionaire: decent albums for what they are but definitely a departure from what made Maiden and Bruce great. If I want to hear classic Maiden, there's plenty of that out there. If I want something different, No Prayer can sometimes be a fun departure from what I'm used to (I also feel this way about other "controversial" albums, such as Kiss Unmasked).

Interesting that you say that, because I often find myself in the same boat.  That's why I truly love and appreciate albums like Hear in the Now Frontier and Risk.  I may have to check this album out after all.

I understand this too. But I think as with "The Elder" that it is it's complete own animal. And it's meant to be that way. On purpose.

But with Risk, No Prayer, and HITNF, they just come off as albums that, well I. would hate to call them uninspired, because I don't think that's fair, but there seems to be a cap on the creativity.

[Samsara]

Fast forward to today and while I definitely see its flaws and why many dislike it, I have to admit I'm still surprised at just how much hate it gets. I put it on about the same level as Tattooed Millionaire: decent albums for what they are but definitely a departure from what made Maiden and Bruce great. If I want to hear classic Maiden, there's plenty of that out there. If I want something different, No Prayer can sometimes be a fun departure from what I'm used to (I also feel this way about other "controversial" albums, such as Kiss Unmasked).

Interesting that you say that, because I often find myself in the same boat.  That's why I truly love and appreciate albums like Hear in the Now Frontier and Risk.  I may have to check this album out after all.

I understand this too. But I think as with "The Elder" that it is it's complete own animal. And it's meant to be that way. On purpose.

But with Risk, No Prayer, and HITNF, they just come off as albums that, well I. would hate to call them uninspired, because I don't think that's fair, but there seems to be a cap on the creativity.

I'll address this more with HITNF when we get to it in the QR discography thread, but I'll say this -- it's not that those three records are uninspired. The bands (or at least songwriters) were obviously inspired on all of them. But all three attempt to strip away something that was key to each of those bands' successes. All three had some good songs, but pushed the envelope WAY too far in a direction that wasn't befitting of the band (Maiden actually doesn't go too far in this regard, but it simply doesn't sound the way most people thought it should). That move, and timing, are reasons why those records were "failures," even though there are some really good moments on them.

[Zydar]

Wow, I've never gotten an asshole vibe from Bruce.

Me neither, rather the opposite in fact.

[Stadler]

I think I prefer Fear over Prayer as well.

To me, though, it's like saying "I prefer heartburn over flatulence".   I'd ideally have neither.    I prefer No Prayer... only because FotD feels like a bad sequel.    We'll talk about it more when we get there, but still with shorter songs, still with Bruce's raspier singing, still with a weak cover, still with the inner artwork all five guys in black leather jackets standing at some obscure location in the wilderness (Nicko is even wearing the same leather jacket in some shots).   If No Prayer... was a "rehash of past glories", then FotD to me was a "rehash of No Prayer...", which is not a positive thing in my book. 

[TAC]

Wow Stadler. I so disagree with this.

    If No Prayer... was a "rehash of past glories", then FotD to me was a "rehash of No Prayer...", which is not a positive thing in my book. 

No Prayer never was a rehash of past glories, and Fear is certainly not a rehash of No Prayer. That second sentiment is mind boggling to me.

You know I'm recovering from surgery, and I think I just pooped my hernia back out after reading that! 

[Stadler]

Wow Stadler. I so disagree with this.

    If No Prayer... was a "rehash of past glories", then FotD to me was a "rehash of No Prayer...", which is not a positive thing in my book. 

No Prayer never was a rehash of past glories, and Fear is certainly not a rehash of No Prayer. That second sentiment is mind boggling to me.

You know I'm recovering from surgery, and I think I just pooped my hernia back out after reading that! 

HAHA, just my opinion.   I'd be willing to debate "rehash", but it certainly was in keeping with the formula.    I'm being a little harsh on No Prayer - it's really not a bad album, and "mid-tier" Maiden still slays 90% of bands out there - but I really don't like FotD.  But we'll get to that.

[TAC]

Yes, like the 90's are surely interesting and divisive. Can't wait to get to Fear. I'm gonna need some sedation.

[cramx3]

Yea, Im interested to read Mosh's write up on Fear to learn more about what was going on in IM during that time, but, like Stadler, I've always felt Fear was a follow up (or rehash) of No Prayer.  I feel both albums are similar, and both are fairly terrible overall albums.  I do rank Fear slightly higher than No Prayer though.  Besides having the best song of the bunch (FotD) it also does have a few other really solid songs.  Prayer does not have that. 

[DoctorAction]

This thread is so fun. Stuck on RSRD, PEN1 and NPFTD whilst doing laundry. 

This is almost my least favourite Bruce Maiden album but I don't feel horribly toward it (that's for FOTD). And those three tracks above I love.

There are some horrid mis-steps. Things were obviously grinding in the band and they were sounding a bit desperate, frankly. A mixture of ham-fisted self-reference and Maiden trying to be rock and roll, which is painful, like Tattooed Millionaire.

Run Silent Run Deep is such a perfect Maiden song. One of my favourites in the whole catalogue.

The drums sound fresh and the tempo is brisk throughout, which is nice. I miss this in Maiden now. Nicko sticks out as lumbering for me these days.

The whole production is good, in my book. Hasn't aged badly at all. The guitars are clear and upfront. Drums nice. I like it.

Janick is here. Great on rhythm and harmonies. I really dislike his leads. But then he's written many great Maiden tunes...

[stargazer18]

This album came out the year I graduated from High School and by this time I was heavy into Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, The Eagles and other similar bands. I still kept up with Maiden and read about the latest changes in the band but they were no longer my one and only. I remember reading the articles in the popular magazines at the time that were quoting Steve Harris’ saying how he wanted to scale it all back and strip it all down.  I think he got what he wanted but….

I have to agree with Adrian on this one and wished they had continued down the path of Somewhere In Time and Seventh Son. When the album came out I remember liking it a lot if for no other reason than it was different than the current (old) music that I was listening to but still Iron Maiden.  Something familiar by a band that even at that time was still considered my favorite even though I wasn’t listening to them that much.

I put this CD in to listen for this thread and can say that it hasn’t aged very well for me. It’s like an entire album of second tier Maiden songs. They’re not bad, they just aren’t that great.

Unlike the self-titled or Killers that still have the raw edge and punkish roots, this album even with its polished production and still mostly legendary line up starts, wanders around and then ends without much of a whimper.

[Dream Team]

Yes, NPFTD is in my opinion extremely inferior to FOTD.

[MirrorMask]

Yes, NPFTD is in my opinion extremely inferior to FOTD.

I see it as the "first draft" of making this kind of raw and wild album. Fear of the Dark sounds like they were more used to this new course... problem is that the new course wasn't that awesome as the previous albums to begin with!

[jingle.boy]

For me, there's two tales to this album - how I felt about it when it dropped, and how I feel about it now.

No Prayer was the first release after I became a fan.  I was SOOOOO looking forward to it.  IM had become a Top 5 band for me after diving into the back catalog (at least, back to NOTB... it would still take some time for me to get Killers and s/t).  I was also somewhat eager to expand my the inventory of pure metal bands.  As I mentioned, I was mainly a classic/hair/glam metal guy at the time, with a fair amount of hard rock thrown in for good measure.  I remember putting in the CD with much anticipation.  Tailgunner... not bad.  Didn't grab me the same way every other album's opening track did.  Then Holy Smoke.  Appropriate title.  Definitely not impressed.  Title track?  Way too slow a start, and I wasn't feeling it.  It gradually went downhill from there.  Nothing on this album impressed me at all.  I was so disappointed.  The lack of vocal range given to us by Bruce annoyed me.  This was too much of his low range and raspy style.  Nothing original.  There are more than a dozen examples where they are ripping themselves off... some subtle and some blatant; entire sections or just a riff.  Much has already been mentioned.

* Sometimes I am actually envious of people that didn't experience these albums in "real time". I appreciate the opinions of those that did not. To them, it's all "back catalog". Every album is measured on its own merits. For one day, I would love to suspend my memory and experience their discography all at once. I would love that.

Bingo.  @ Mosh... I envy how you discovered this album.  The same has happened for me with several bands, and it's great when one can love an album without knowing any of the 'backstory' as to why others dislike it.  However, this album just grates me every time I think about it. I lost touch with Maiden after that.  Didn't even bother with FOTD (I was at Uni at the time as well, and not buying hardly any albums), and then with Bruce gone, I totally gave up on them.  It wasn't until the Back Somewhere in Time tour (I was supposed to go, but ultimately things got buggered up and I didn't) that I discovered they'd reunited with BNW, and I went re-discovering them again.  More on that when we get to BNW.

That was the worst of times.  The 'best' of times is this week... and relistening for this thread.  I couldn't tell you the last time I listened to this album - likely sometime in the mid-90s.  It's not nearly as bad as I remember it to be 27 years ago.  Tailgunner's pretty good, and I now appreciate the slow build of the title track.  Despite it being such a blatant ripoff, Mother Russia is enjoyable enough.  Still, the worst IM album in my catalog, but it's not as much tripe as it was for my ears back in '90.  Bring Your Daughter still honks on Bobo, and the middle tracks are entirely meh.

I'm still mostly pissed at this album though, because (imo) it was the beginning of what ended up being a completely wasted decade for the band.  Would anyone say that the 90s (studio and touring) was NOT the worst decade for them?

[Stadler]

That's the thing; if you can remember when there wasn't an internet (or at least as ubiquitous an internet) and you waited a year or more between releases with little news (and without the obligatory every-tour DVD package), to be steeped in the run from Number... through Seventh... and then get... this?   Especially at that moment, when there was a lot of other music with energy, uniqueness and originality (Vigil..., Passion and Warfare, but for me more like "Ritual de lo Habitual" and "Manic Nirvana", which was Plant finally coming to grips with the fact that he was in Led Zeppelin for ten years), it's not surprising that No Prayer was met with a little bit of indifference.   

Some of the bigger bands were struggling; Painkiller (which I'm not a huge fan of either) and Slaves and Masters (which I love but I clearly understand why it's a huge misstep for Purple) and Crazy World (Scorpions).   And for whatever reason, a TON of bands were in 'recap' mode, releasing live or compilation records (Gabriel, Ozzy, Elton John, Squeeze...). 

And while it will factor in more shortly, don't forget, a little band called "Soundgarden" put out their first EP this year and another band, "Mother Love Bone", their first album.    Things were about to get real, as the kids say. 

[PowerSlave]

Bring Your Daughter still honks on Bobo, and the middle tracks are entirely meh.

I lol'd

[romdrums]

Thanks to this thread, I've been listening to a lot of Maiden over the past few weeks (listening to Dance of Death right now.  Slightly underrated reunion era album?)  and I've come to a significant realization.  Recording to a click track would have been near impossible for this band.  Whether that's good or bad depends on your point of view, but I think, especially in the reunion era and tracking live as a band, that if Nicko had a click in his ear, the music would be vastly different.  As a drummer who has practiced with a metronome for decades and as a music fan who's listening tastes generally veer towards music of the gridded out variety, I can find listening to Maiden to be challenging with their sudden tempo changes, especially the tempo changes that, to my ears, come off as a course correction.  If I get some time, I may drop something like Can I Play With Madness into Pro Tools or something similar and do a tempo map, just to see how much it changes throughout the song.  The thing I find impressive about the tempo changes is that they manage to pull it off as a band.  It's not just Nicko making adjustments and everyone else fumbling to fall back or catch up, it's the whole band working as one.  That's a pretty impressive inter band telepathy.

[Stadler]

Thanks to this thread, I've been listening to a lot of Maiden over the past few weeks (listening to Dance of Death right now.  Slightly underrated reunion era album?)  and I've come to a significant realization.  Recording to a click track would have been near impossible for this band.  Whether that's good or bad depends on your point of view, but I think, especially in the reunion era and tracking live as a band, that if Nicko had a click in his ear, the music would be vastly different.  As a drummer who has practiced with a metronome for decades and as a music fan who's listening tastes generally veer towards music of the gridded out variety, I can find listening to Maiden to be challenging with their sudden tempo changes, especially the tempo changes that, to my ears, come off as a course correction.  If I get some time, I may drop something like Can I Play With Madness into Pro Tools or something similar and do a tempo map, just to see how much it changes throughout the song.  The thing I find impressive about the tempo changes is that they manage to pull it off as a band.  It's not just Nicko making adjustments and everyone else fumbling to fall back or catch up, it's the whole band working as one.  That's a pretty impressive inter band telepathy.

I'm not a drummer, though I have played in bands before (including marching bands, which is significant here) and I feel like the greatest bands do what you describe and it is - in part - why they are the greatest.  I've written here before, but it's to me why the vast majority of drummers STILL cite John Bonham as being the guy, and yet the majority of Zeppelin covers fall flat.   He and Page, in particular, had a really smooth way of doing just what you describe.   When I saw Temple of the Dog, they SMOKED a cover of Achilles Last Stand - one of the best Zeppelin covers I have ever heard - and in part it was because Matt Cameron and Stone Gossard were locked in, but the tempo was not.   It ebbed and flowed but did so as a band unit, not one guy scrambling to catch up to the other. 

[nobloodyname]

If I get some time, I may drop something like Can I Play With Madness into Pro Tools or something similar and do a tempo map, just to see how much it changes throughout the song.

I, for one, would find that absolutely fascinating. Hope you get the time

[romdrums]

If I get some time, I may drop something like Can I Play With Madness into Pro Tools or something similar and do a tempo map, just to see how much it changes throughout the song.

I, for one, would find that absolutely fascinating. Hope you get the time

I'm going to check a few of their tunes if I can get the time.  One of my buddies and I are very interested to see just how much the tempo varies in some of their songs.

[Mosh]

I would argue against the 90s being a wasted decade for them. Regardless of opinions on the quality of those albums, most of the creative foundation for the music they'd make in the next decade were laid in the 90s. Not so much on Prayer, but definitely the following three albums. Virtual XI is basically proto-BNw. A lot of other bands in Maiden's position reset themselves eventually and went in other directions (or tried to go back to their roots), but when the reunion happened Maiden (or more specifically Steve) didn't alter their musical direction much at all. I think that contributed a lot to the longevity of the reunion and the quality of the music they're making to this day.

[PowerSlave]

I would argue against the 90s being a wasted decade for them. Regardless of opinions on the quality of those albums, most of the creative foundation for the music they'd make in the next decade were laid in the 90s. Not so much on Prayer, but definitely the following three albums. Virtual XI is basically proto-BNw. A lot of other bands in Maiden's position reset themselves eventually and went in other directions (or tried to go back to their roots), but when the reunion happened Maiden (or more specifically Steve) didn't alter their musical direction much at all. I think that contributed a lot to the longevity of the reunion and the quality of the music they're making to this day.

The direction may have been the same excluding the vocal melodies (the importance of this can't be understated). However, the execution is far superior in the reunion era. An example of the poor execution is one of the later 90's albums had what could easily be the worst drum performances in the history of the band. Nicko's playing just sounded flat and uninspiring. I can't remember which record it was, but I'm sure that it will come up in discussion when we get to the album. Those two factors (no pun intended) separate the 90's and the reunion era greatly. Also, while there have been a couple of miss-steps (Dance of Death and The Final Frontier), the reunion era albums have sounded a ton better as far as the overall production.

An argument could also be made that quite a few songs on Dance of Death were very much different than anything that they had done before. Face in the Sand, and Age of Innocence in particular really seem to stand out to me as being very different/non-standard IM songs. Journeyman could probably fall into that category as well.

I do understand where you're coming from, but I don't think that it's fair to cover the entire reunion era as just being a continuation of the 90's output.

[cramx3]

I would argue against the 90s being a wasted decade for them.

As would I.  They needed that decade to make the reunion as good as it was IMO. 

[Stadler]

I would argue against the 90s being a wasted decade for them. Regardless of opinions on the quality of those albums, most of the creative foundation for the music they'd make in the next decade were laid in the 90s. Not so much on Prayer, but definitely the following three albums. Virtual XI is basically proto-BNw. A lot of other bands in Maiden's position reset themselves eventually and went in other directions (or tried to go back to their roots), but when the reunion happened Maiden (or more specifically Steve) didn't alter their musical direction much at all. I think that contributed a lot to the longevity of the reunion and the quality of the music they're making to this day.

The direction may have been the same excluding the vocal melodies (the importance of this can't be understated). However, the execution is far superior in the reunion era. An example of the poor execution is one of the later 90's albums had what could easily be the worst drum performances in the history of the band. Nicko's playing just sounded flat and uninspiring. I can't remember which record it was, but I'm sure that it will come up in discussion when we get to the album. Those two factors (no pun intended) separate the 90's and the reunion era greatly.

I was listening to the X Factor yesterday (Homework!!!) and there was one song... might have been Man On The Edge, but don't quote me on that - and I thought "WOW, I have to look to see who played on this because that CERTAINLY isn't Nicko".  The drums sounded like someone was banging on cardboard boxes with a wooden spoon, and had none of that "motion" that Nicko is so good at (the galloping beat isn't just Harry's triplet base lines). 

Also, while there have been a couple of miss-steps (Dance of Death and The Final Frontier), the reunion era albums have sounded a ton better as far as the overall production.

An argument could also be made that quite a few songs on Dance of Death were very much different than anything that they had done before. Face in the Sand, and Age of Innocence in particular really seem to stand out to me as being very different/non-standard IM songs. Journeyman could probably fall into that category as well.

I do understand where you're coming from, but I don't think that it's fair to cover the entire reunion era as just being a continuation of the 90's output.

Haha, I read that quickly and I thought you included "Dance of Death" in there as one of the missteps!   Wait.... you did!   What are you thinking?  That's probably my second favorite reunion era album.  I go back to that a LOT more than BNW (which I like) and AMOLOD (which is great but hasn't really dug in roots with me yet).   Journeyman (both versions) is a top 10 Maiden song for me, easily. 

[bosk1]

^No kidding!  Man, if not for Dance of Death and The Final Frontier, I'm not sure I would have ever even bothered becoming a Maiden fan.  Forget reunion era--those are two of their best albums EVER.

[Mosh]

Nicko was musically absent for a lot of the Blaze years, especially Virtual. He took Bruce's departure very personally and never seemed to accept Blaze in the band (he story goes that Nicko convinced Steve that Blaze had to go).

[PowerSlave]

Dance of Death is an incredible album. However, the production suffered from poor mastering. The record label bumped the levels without consulting the band. TFF is hard to describe for me. It sounds like its buried under too much delay/reverb a lot of the time.

[cramx3]

DoD is an amazing album with bad production, agreed.  Honestly would rank TFF just above or around the 90s albums.  Not very interesting songs for my taste.

Just listened to No Prayer twice today.  It's been awhile since I've listened to it, and I was pretty harsh on it in my initial post regarding it here, but I think it's a bit better than I had stated.  It's not good, but it's still very clearly IM and while the songs are mostly poor, there's lots of good music on the album.  Also, I enjoy the production on this one.