Author Topic: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting  (Read 98953 times)

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Offline El Barto

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #1575 on: October 28, 2017, 11:36:08 AM »
I always figured Manafort would be the first against the wall. He's knowledgeable and they've got leverage on him. They'll continue to turn the screws hoping to flip him.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #1576 on: October 29, 2017, 12:08:35 PM »
I wonder how long this took to make.

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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #1577 on: October 30, 2017, 06:15:28 AM »
Official now ... it's Manafort.

Now we await the tweet-storm...

 :corn

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Offline Chino

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #1578 on: October 30, 2017, 06:34:29 AM »
I can't wait to see what they're charging him with. I bet they're going to offer him the choice of decades in prison or a hard slap on the wrist for info on Trump's similar dealings.

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #1579 on: October 30, 2017, 06:54:10 AM »
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Offline Chino

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #1580 on: October 30, 2017, 07:47:10 AM »
So one of Manafort's charges is "conspiracy against the US". Is that just a different way to say "treason", or is it something else?

Offline Adami

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #1581 on: October 30, 2017, 07:54:20 AM »
So one of Manafort's charges is "conspiracy against the US". Is that just a different way to say "treason", or is it something else?


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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #1582 on: October 30, 2017, 08:22:57 AM »
What's the over/under on the Trumpster firing Mueller?  I'm going with 3 days.

Oh, and he'll surely pardon Paulie too.

I wish I was kidding - or even being slightly facetious - about either of these things, but alas there is a "tremendous" possibility of them happening.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #1583 on: October 30, 2017, 08:28:08 AM »
Idk if he can fire Mueller at this point. Even for Trump, the optics of that would be unjustifiable to many (even in his shrinking circle of supporters). If he wanted to fire him, the time to do so would have been about 5 months back.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #1584 on: October 30, 2017, 08:33:58 AM »
From what I can gather, conspiracy against the US is the proper charge for any number of attempts to rip off The Man. Nothing to do with treason or any other serious sort of thing. Looks like Manafort is 68, so they're probably just trying to cook up enough charges to get an assured 20 years or so. You tell a 68 year old he can spend the rest of his life in prison or roll over on some guy he hardly knows and it's not much of a choice. This isn't the mob and Grabby isn't smart enough to have him whacked.

And while pardoning PM would look bad, he might do it. Sacking Mueller would be very, very ugly. Trump can't fire Mueller. He can order Rosenstein to do it, but only with cause. If he tries to do so simply to make this thing go away Rosenstein would most likely refuse, at which point Trump would fire him and appoint a lackey in their to do his bidding. Ask Nixon how that sort of thing plays out.
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Offline Kattelox

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #1585 on: October 30, 2017, 09:13:24 AM »
Dominos falling one by one. I am very interested to see what happens now. Think Trump is sweating bullets?
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Offline axeman90210

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #1586 on: October 30, 2017, 09:21:25 AM »
Dominos falling one by one. I am very interested to see what happens now. Think Trump is sweating bullets?

I think him tweeting "DO SOMETHING" yesterday kind of gives that away :lol
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Offline Kattelox

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #1587 on: October 30, 2017, 09:25:06 AM »
Dominos falling one by one. I am very interested to see what happens now. Think Trump is sweating bullets?

I think him tweeting "DO SOMETHING" yesterday kind of gives that away :lol

Missed that one, just saw it... hahaha  :lol
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Offline lordxizor

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #1588 on: October 30, 2017, 09:29:58 AM »
So what happens if in the end they determine that basically the entire Trump administration was in on this? They can't just impeach Trump and put Pence in power then. Do they just continue down the succession line until they find someone not associated with this mess? Do we have a special election to start over? Obviously we're a long way from needing to worry about this, but I'm just curious. There's obviously no precedent.

Offline RuRoRul

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #1589 on: October 30, 2017, 09:33:04 AM »
It's now been released that a different Trump campaign foreign policy advisor, George Papadopoulos, has already pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about efforts to set up meetings between the Trump campaign and Russian government. Seems like he is cooperating.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/30/us/politics/george-papadopoulos-russia.html

Offline bosk1

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #1590 on: October 30, 2017, 09:43:22 AM »
So what happens if in the end they determine that basically the entire Trump administration was in on this? They can't just impeach Trump and put Pence in power then. Do they just continue down the succession line until they find someone not associated with this mess? Do we have a special election to start over? Obviously we're a long way from needing to worry about this, but I'm just curious. There's obviously no precedent.

Well, I think what you are getting at and what you are asking are two different things, for a few different reasons.  What you are getting at is removing Trump from office.  From what has been released so far, that does not appear to be even a remote possibility.  First, as Barto pointed out, there isn't really any implication that Trump was in on anything "serious."  There isn't really an impeachable offense.  Second, impeachment =/= removal from office.  So, as far as what you are actually getting at, there isn't anything that has been released that appears to get us there. 
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Offline Chino

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #1591 on: October 30, 2017, 09:44:11 AM »
So what happens if in the end they determine that basically the entire Trump administration was in on this? They can't just impeach Trump and put Pence in power then. Do they just continue down the succession line until they find someone not associated with this mess? Do we have a special election to start over? Obviously we're a long way from needing to worry about this, but I'm just curious. There's obviously no precedent.

If both the President and Vice President get outed, the speaker of the house becomes president.

Offline antigoon

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #1592 on: October 30, 2017, 09:45:45 AM »
there was this ridiculous post a while back, it might have been by that wacko louise mensch, that theorized that orrin hatch would end up being president :lol

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #1593 on: October 30, 2017, 09:59:37 AM »
Idk if he can fire Mueller at this point. Even for Trump, the optics of that would be unjustifiable to many (even in his shrinking circle of supporters). If he wanted to fire him, the time to do so would have been about 5 months back.

Well, the Fox propaganda machine is certainly suggesting he should.



Quote
Over the weekend, Fox’s Jeanine Pirro called on Congress to “shut it down,” “turn the tables,” and “lock her up.”

God, I can't stand her... she's the female version of Alex Jones.

Remember that his base, by-and-large, think this is a media fuelled witch-hunt.
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Offline kaos2900

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #1594 on: October 30, 2017, 11:25:35 AM »
I wouldn't call it a media witch hunt, but it's pretty obvious that the mainstream media is nitpicking everything the man does and isn't letting anything slide like they would have with past presidents.

At this point, Trump is only guilty of hiring crooks which doesn't make him look good but nothing to even begin the discussion of impeachment. Yet.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #1595 on: October 30, 2017, 11:31:02 AM »
I wouldn't call it a media witch hunt, but it's pretty obvious that the mainstream media is nitpicking everything the man does and isn't letting anything slide like they would have with past presidents.

At this point, Trump is only guilty of hiring crooks which doesn't make him look good but nothing to even begin the discussion of impeachment. Yet.

Which unfortunately doesn't separate or distinguish him from any President back to (and including) JFK.  I could probably keep going, but my knowledge gets spotty (FDR did, but I can't speak for Eisenhower, unless you consider the Dulles brothers to be "crooks"). 

Offline ?

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #1596 on: October 30, 2017, 11:57:03 AM »
A long but interesting read (a thread of 100+ tweets): https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/924988111880417280 (E: more reader-friendly version: https://tttthreads.com/thread/924988111880417280)

Also, apparently even if Trump pardoned Manafort, the case could continue at the state level: http://www.newsweek.com/trump-pardon-manafort-gates-mueller-indictment-696362
Quote
The only limit on the president’s pardoning power is that he cannot issue pardons for matters related to his potential impeachment. Since Mueller is still digging into the Trump campaign’s suspected Russia ties, a pardon could set off immediate alarm bells with Congress, which could begin impeachment proceedings to thwart Trump. That’s to say nothing of the legal challenges a Trump pardon would certainly set off.

The president has the ability to pardon federal offenses, but not state charges. Mueller’s indictment ties Manafort and Gates’ money trail to lavish purchases in New York, Florida, California, Virginia and South Carolina. The attorneys general in any of the those states could continue pursuing Manafort and Gates on local charges even if Trump got his way with a pardon.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 12:06:18 PM by ? »

Offline Stadler

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #1597 on: October 30, 2017, 12:24:39 PM »
I feel like I have to say this, lest the "Never Trump"ers take this ball and run with it:

I read that statement - that a pardon would force Congress to begin impeachment proceedings - to mean that it would be an administrative game to prevent further pardons that would cloud the Mueller investigation, NOT a legitimate and inevitable consequence of any bad behavior on the part of Trump.  In other words, if you're anti-Trump, don't get your hopes up; it's a legal process issue, not an actual accountability or culpability issue.

Offline Kattelox

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #1598 on: October 30, 2017, 12:54:36 PM »
Stadler, you've been saying stuff like 'don't get your hopes up' for the past year every time something comes up, and every time it gets worse, you say it again  :lol
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #1599 on: October 30, 2017, 12:55:39 PM »
Stadler, you've been saying stuff like 'don't get your hopes up' for the past year every time something comes up, and every time it gets worse, you say it again  :lol
And yet Grabby is no closer to being gone than he was six months ago. In fact, he's probably better entrenched now than he was back then.
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Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #1600 on: October 30, 2017, 01:14:20 PM »
In fact, he's probably better entrenched now than he was back then.

Yeah, the Manafort thing is (for now) a nothing story in terms of making Trump look bad, in fact quite the opposite, he can spin this well for himself (he can claim he separated from him as soon as questions about his Ukrainian connections came up).

The Papadopoulos story is a far more interesting one in my opinion, and potentially more damaging for Trump, if indeed any of this ends up being damaging for him (almost certainly it won't).
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #1601 on: October 30, 2017, 02:15:27 PM »
Stadler, you've been saying stuff like 'don't get your hopes up' for the past year every time something comes up, and every time it gets worse, you say it again  :lol

And he's no closer to being impeached now than he was back then.   It's really because people don't seem to understand what the "impeachment" process is, how it works, or WHY it works.    Unfortunately, "not liking the current guy" isn't even in the ballpark. 

EDIT:  Thank you el Barto and Dave for BOTH ninja'ing me on that point.  :) :) :)

Kattleox, and you said I wasn't consistent!!! :)

Offline Adami

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #1602 on: October 30, 2017, 02:17:11 PM »
Stadler, you've been saying stuff like 'don't get your hopes up' for the past year every time something comes up, and every time it gets worse, you say it again  :lol

And he's no closer to being impeached now than he was back then.   It's really because people don't seem to understand what the "impeachment" process is, how it works, or WHY it works.    Unfortunately, "not liking the current guy" isn't even in the ballpark.

I often confuse impeachment with impearment. Though when I start using words like inapplement, then people usually correct me.
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Offline RuRoRul

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #1603 on: October 30, 2017, 02:41:16 PM »
People should take each development for what it is and not blow it out of proportion, or get unrealistic expectations about the future. But there does seem to be a bit of a pattern when it comes to the Russian investigation:

The Russia stuff is just a media fabrication, there's nothing real there.
Ok, maybe they're looking into Russian influence in the election but there's nothing solid there.
Ok, maybe they found some Russian influence in the election but the Trump campaign collusion stuff is just media fabrication.
Ok, maybe they are looking into Trump campaign collusion but it'll probably end in nothing.
Ok, maybe they appointed a special counsel and they are expanding the investigation but that doesn't mean they'll charge anyone.
Ok, maybe they'll charge Manafort and a couple of other people but they won't find anything that will hurt Trump...

That's where we are right now, and maybe that's where it will end. Would anyone be comfortable betting on that though?

Personally, to me it doesn't seem as though Mueller and his team have shot their wad with these charges. I'd bet there will be quite a few more steps to go through before this ends.

Today, it's "not that bad news for Trump" that his election campaign manager and another campaign / transition member got indicted with money laundering and foreign agent charges and a low level campaign adviser pleads guilty on lying to the Feds about collusion with Russia and is cooperating. Reality keeps adjusting people's expectations about what counts as good or "not that bad" for him. Who's to say what will be considered "not that bad" a year from now now? Resignation, impeachment... they may not seem close now but who knows what expectations might be in a few months if the investigation continues. It's worth keeping in mind that "The president has a solid chance of not getting impeached in his first term" probably wouldn't be considered a great victory in normal circumstances.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 02:49:07 PM by RuRoRul »

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #1604 on: October 30, 2017, 02:59:21 PM »
Today, it's "not that bad news for Trump" that his election campaign manager and another campaign / transition member got indicted with money laundering and foreign agent charges and a low level campaign adviser pleads guilty on lying to the Feds about collusion with Russia and is cooperating.

And there you have the new normal in American Government.   :tup
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Offline lonestar

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #1605 on: October 30, 2017, 07:04:59 PM »
Today, it's "not that bad news for Trump" that his election campaign manager and another campaign / transition member got indicted with money laundering and foreign agent charges and a low level campaign adviser pleads guilty on lying to the Feds about collusion with Russia and is cooperating.

And there you have the new normal in American Government.   :tup

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Offline Kattelox

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #1606 on: October 30, 2017, 08:18:42 PM »
Stadler, you've been saying stuff like 'don't get your hopes up' for the past year every time something comes up, and every time it gets worse, you say it again  :lol

And he's no closer to being impeached now than he was back then.   It's really because people don't seem to understand what the "impeachment" process is, how it works, or WHY it works.    Unfortunately, "not liking the current guy" isn't even in the ballpark. 

EDIT:  Thank you el Barto and Dave for BOTH ninja'ing me on that point.  :) :) :)

Kattleox, and you said I wasn't consistent!!! :)

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Offline Stadler

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #1607 on: October 31, 2017, 08:13:00 AM »
Today, it's "not that bad news for Trump" that his election campaign manager and another campaign / transition member got indicted with money laundering and foreign agent charges and a low level campaign adviser pleads guilty on lying to the Feds about collusion with Russia and is cooperating.

And there you have the new normal in American Government.   :tup

But that's not a fair assessment.   He ISN'T Trump's campaign manger, he's Trump's EX campaign manager, and was fired, summarily.   Politico reported that he was fired specifically because the Trump family was uncomfortable with his level of transparency. 

I'm sure Trump will do something stupid in terms of the handling of this, but the events themselves?  I don't see any of this having any more legs than any other "scandal". 

As for "other countries laughing at us", the only country I care about is CHINA.   The idea that "so-and-so" is "laughing at us" has been used as an argument since Reagan, and to about the same effect.   I can remember sitting in a pub in Ireland and listening to the woman behind the bar talking to her mates about that joke, Clinton, fucking his way through the White House.  Then Europe was laughing at us for the simp that was in office after him.   Then Europe was laughing at us because of the wimp that was in after HIM.   

Offline El Barto

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #1608 on: October 31, 2017, 08:28:17 AM »

I'm sure Trump will do something stupid in terms of the handling of this, but the events themselves?  I don't see any of this having any more legs than any other "scandal". 
The Papadopoulus thing is worse for him. That's the second example of Team Trump meeting with Ivan to gain a political advantage in the election. It's just not as exciting as the Manafort thing.

Quote
As for "other countries laughing at us", the only country I care about is CHINA.   The idea that "so-and-so" is "laughing at us" has been used as an argument since Reagan, and to about the same effect.   I can remember sitting in a pub in Ireland and listening to the woman behind the bar talking to her mates about that joke, Clinton, fucking his way through the White House.  Then Europe was laughing at us for the simp that was in office after him.   Then Europe was laughing at us because of the wimp that was in after HIM.
I'm there with you about not caring when they laugh at "America" doing silly shit. It does bug me when they're laughing at "Americans" for electing buffoons, though.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #1609 on: October 31, 2017, 08:36:16 AM »
Not sure if this belongs here or not, but I'll put it in here because it certainly points to a disturbing lack of willingness or ability to discuss things on a rational and thorough level.

Whether you agree with the tone, the words, or the level of compassion, technically speaking, Kelly is right:  https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/31/us/john-kelly-civil-war.html  And yet you have these history scholars on Twitter with their inane comments and twitterisms.  Look, I'm on a first name basis with bad analogies, and comparing slavery/the Civil War with the dinosaurs is a stretch even for me.    "Slavery" didn't "cause" the Civil War any more than that table you walked into "caused" your bruised kneecap.   

The Constitution (specifically the 3/5ths count for representation purposes) was a compromise.   We didn't have a union if the issue of slavery was addressed in it's finality in 1776.  So it was tabled.   It was renewed in 1820, and was temporarily addressed (in favor of the anti-slavery contingent) by what is now known as the "Missouri Compromise".   <--- See that word right there?   It was a compromise between the South, that wanted any state to be able to be a slave state if it so chose, and the North, that wanted to abolish it outright.    The "compromise" worked for the North, because it limited the ability of new states to join as slave states, and only conceded Missouri, which was already slave territory.   The Civil War started because the South refused to make any further concessions - refused to COMPROMISE, that word again - on the ongoing and heatening issue of slavery.   Had those states not seceded, had they addressed their concerns at the bargaining table, had they COMPROMISED their position even in the slightest, we would not have had to fight a war between the States.   That's not to say that slavery would or would not have continued, or would or would not have been abolished.   But it would have meant the avoidance of war, which I think is all that Kelly is saying.

Look, I'm not here to defend slavery (it's an abhorrent practice, and a blemish on our human rights record, no doubt).   But we can and should be able to have a civil - no pun intended - discussion about history without feeling the need to rewrite it at every turn to reflect current values.   I think this bothers me so much because I'm watching my child - a junior in high school - confront these issues, and it's a delicate minefield.    She's an incredibly bright and curious person (chip, block, go ahead, you can say it!) and asks the important questions.  Such as, "if there was such a discrepancy between the various states, how did we ever get a United States together?"  You have to look at history objectively and in totality.   It does no one any good to sugar coat the facts, or worse, rejigger the facts to reflect a mindset that has had the luxury of 240 years of fine tuning.

Jason Kander? Please. You should know better.  If you don't want to have a reasoned discussion or dialogue, then don't.  But don't try to tell us what we can or can't discuss.   I may even go on Twitter and respond to him...     <Stadler laces up boxing gloves to go and try to tweet...>   
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 03:38:49 PM by Stadler »