Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?

[Adami]

Octavarium seems to be the odd album out of this bunch, but given the direction they were going in with SDOIT and ToT, Octavarium really felt like DT trying to a more signature sound (Muse-inspired and poppish songs aside).

Those songs are like half of the album! 

Exactly. So of the 8 songs on 8vm.........2-3 are DT sounding?

[gzarruk]

Octavarium seems to be the odd album out of this bunch, but given the direction they were going in with SDOIT and ToT, Octavarium really felt like DT trying to a more signature sound (Muse-inspired and poppish songs aside).

Those songs are like half of the album! 

Exactly. So of the 8 songs on 8vm.........2-3 are DT sounding?

That's why I've always struggled with liking the album. I mean, it has some great songs, but a lot of it just doesn't sound too much like DT. Plus, like I read someone else here on DTF said, looks like they were more interested in the nuggets than the actual songs. To me, something's just not right with the album (just my opinion,  of course).
Also, Never Enough is one of my least favorite DT songs of all time (maybe has to do with the fact that I don't really like Muse).

[MirrorMask]

I like Never Enough for what it is, it's just that knowing Muse you can't un-remember that the ispiration is way too heavy. It's still a decent enough song, and the lyrics at most are just that vague enough (maybe not the second verse) for forgetting about their actual meaning and pretend they're about whoever is pissing you off and not appreciating you.

[erwinrafael]

Octavarium seems to be the odd album out of this bunch, but given the direction they were going in with SDOIT and ToT, Octavarium really felt like DT trying to a more signature sound (Muse-inspired and poppish songs aside).

Those songs are like half of the album! 

Exactly. So of the 8 songs on 8vm.........2-3 are DT sounding?

I would say that TROAE, These Walls, Sacrificed Sons and Octavarium are DT sound. Given how long Octavarium is, it's well over half the album.

[Adami]

Or half the album

I'd forgotten about These Walls. Good catch.


Still hard to say it's a return to classic DT sound.

[erwinrafael]

Yes. That's why I said it was sort of the odd man out of all the albums I mentioned. It only comes across to me as a return to a more clasdic DT sound in the context of the darker direction they have been taking with SDOIT and ToT.

[gzarruk]

To me, the experimental direction they took with SDOIT was the right path to follow, but it all went sideways with TOT, OVM and so on. ADTOE was the return to the right path, imo. Hopefully they make another experimental album like Six Degrees.

[KevShmev]

Octavarium seems to be the odd album out of this bunch, but given the direction they were going in with SDOIT and ToT, Octavarium really felt like DT trying to a more signature sound (Muse-inspired and poppish songs aside).

Those songs are like half of the album! 

How so? 

The title track alone takes up nearly 32% of the album.

Sacrificed Sons takes up about 15%.

The other six tracks are all poppy or Muse-like??

[Mister Gold]

Honestly I think the best example of what I'm interpreting Samsara's point on "maturing"/"evolving" to be would be Fates Warning. Not sure if I'm understanding the argument right or not though.

But I think it's a bit of a hard point to discuss in relation to DT. My personal favorites from the band are their darker and prog-y albums, namely Awake and Six Degrees.

[gzarruk]

Octavarium seems to be the odd album out of this bunch, but given the direction they were going in with SDOIT and ToT, Octavarium really felt like DT trying to a more signature sound (Muse-inspired and poppish songs aside).

Those songs are like half of the album! 

How so? 

The title track alone takes up nearly 32% of the album.

Sacrificed Sons takes up about 15%.

The other six tracks are all poppy or Muse-like??

I was talking about the song count (4 vs 4) not song lenght. Even if we count the lenght and how much % it takes from the album, we can still say that a big part of the album isn't "classic DT sound"by any means. Not that that's a bad thing, just it doens't fit with the "classical DT album" label that we were talking about.

[erwinrafael]

Well, I sort of see the Octavarium album as really primarily about the Octavarium song, with the rest as just candy.  So the spirit of the album for me is based on the spirit of that particular song.

To me, the experimental direction they took with SDOIT was the right path to follow, but it all went sideways with TOT, OVM and so on. ADTOE was the return to the right path, imo. Hopefully they make another experimental album like Six Degrees.

But they did take the direction of SDOIT, afterwards, or at least the direction of The Glass Prison. Blind Faith also would not really fall far from what they did afterwards up to BC&SL, as well as some portions of the SDOIT song. What they did not pursue is the direction of Misunderstood, TGD and Disappear.

[Adami]

I'd also argue that 8vm, the song, is a pretty distinct entity and that while it contains some aspects of core DT sound, it's pretty unique and even set the stage for future DT sound. So I also wouldn't call the song classic DT.

Once again, not a criticism.

[erwinrafael]

I'd also argue that 8vm, the song, is a pretty distinct entity and that while it contains some aspects of core DT sound, it's pretty unique and even set the stage for future DT sound. So I also wouldn't call the song classic DT.

Once again, not a criticism.

It is ACOS' worthy successor.

[Adami]

I'd also argue that 8vm, the song, is a pretty distinct entity and that while it contains some aspects of core DT sound, it's pretty unique and even set the stage for future DT sound. So I also wouldn't call the song classic DT.

Once again, not a criticism.

It is ACOS' worthy successor.

As a concept and a long song, sure. But "classic DT" is not just a long song. Or a good song. It can be really good without being a return to the core sound. It was an exploration of new sound.

[erwinrafael]

I'd also argue that 8vm, the song, is a pretty distinct entity and that while it contains some aspects of core DT sound, it's pretty unique and even set the stage for future DT sound. So I also wouldn't call the song classic DT.

Once again, not a criticism.

It is ACOS' worthy successor.

As a concept and a long song, sure. But "classic DT" is not just a long song. Or a good song. It can be really good without being a return to the core sound. It was an exploration of new sound.

Well, yeah. I am thinking more of defining the core DT sound as melodic prog metal with prominent keyboards that do not sound like a distorted guitar. 

[TAC]

I think what Dream Theater didn't have that the next generation of Prog or Prog/metal bands have was Dream Theater. They were influenced by Dream Theater and were able to build upon that.

[Samsara]

I think what Dream Theater didn't have that the next generation of Prog or Prog/metal bands have was Dream Theater. They were influenced by Dream Theater and were able to build upon that.

Or, they more blatantly pulled from their influences to bring that music out to the forefront a bit more. The song Octavarium may mean a lot of different things to people. However, it really (the whole album, honestly) was almost an homage to prog bands that Dream Theater liked, like in the way Avenged Sevenfold channeled, and some would say blatantly copied, Metallica and Megadeth.

In both cases, for me, it really was a major turnoff.

[gzarruk]

I think what Dream Theater didn't have that the next generation of Prog or Prog/metal bands have was Dream Theater. They were influenced by Dream Theater and were able to build upon that.

This may sound very confusing, but I think you nailed it with this. Best example I could think of is Haken. They started sounding very DT-like and now they've developed their own sound that definitely has some DT in there, but with a more modern, even djenty, sound; without sounding like a standard djent "modern" band such as Periphery.

[PB1]

im not a huge fan of DT12 and didnt like TA at all. i understand we will never get another masterpiece like Awake, and ToT can't be successfully duplicated. I wish petrucci would go back to the mindset he was in when he wrote ADTOE. it's not necessarily an original album per se, but it still sounds very fresh and many of the songs are memorable.

[TAC]

I'm not a huge fan of DT12, but I don't have any major issues with it either. I actually found that one safer than ADTOE. I feel like those albums should've come out in reverse order.


And if you (not YOU PB1) didn't like TA, you sure as hell ain't getting another one of those again, so don't let that stop anyone from looking forward to the next album.

[PB1]

there are a few reasons I enjoy ADTOE so much

- I really didn't care for the direction that Portnoy took DT after Train of Thought (I really liked Octavarium, SC was ok and I didn't like Black clouds at all)
- Mike Portnoy had waaaay too much creative control in terms of song writing. I felt like Petrucci and co just went along with trying to write songs in the vein of whatever portnoy's flavor-of-the-month band inspiration was at the time, without much resistance
- After all of the Portnoy drama (much if not all of it he brought on himself) subsided, I was excited to hear what Petrucci could come up with now that he didn't have portnoy to "influence" his songwriting process. You can really feel how inspired Petrucci and the rest of DT were when they wrote these songs. I mean it doesnt really get any more epic than when the band comes in at 0:45 of Outcry.

[TAC]

ADTOE is my #3 DT album, so you're preaching to the choir brother.

[JaceTestify]

You know what? On this I would have to say no. And here is why: Dream Theater was something about them, like a nuance, that no other band in my opinion has. (except for Rush and maybe Pink Floyd or Neal Morse). Like if I go and listen to another Prog Metal band or really just any band that is considered progressive, (by mainstream or otherwise) something key to me is missing. Like even with my least favorite albums done by them (Self Titled, The Astonishing) I can still fall in love with the little, seemingly unimportant bits. For example The Walking Shadow to me is an amazing piece of music in almost every way.

But they lost a bit of that nuance once Portnoy left, and Mangini just doesn't really fit. Though I would say they are still a mature band that is slowing trying to get back what they lost when Portnoy left.
 
Any of you guys know what I am saying?

[Cyclopssss]

I get what you're trying to say. I've been thinking about this one a lot lately and I think it has a lot to do with nostalgia. They might have grown up a bit too MUCH. I mean, I miss some of the marvelous melodic lines from the past when I listen to the newest material, but there hasn't been one new released lately that I haven't enjoyed at least somewhat and I'm still impressed most of the time what they come up with musically.

[hefdaddy42]

For my tastes, DT has a sense of melody that most other modern prog bands seem to be lacking.  That, and their experience with songwriting, is what still separates them from the vast majority of other prog bands. 

Again, for me and my tastes.

[rumborak]

ADTOE is my #3 DT album, so you're preaching to the choir brother.

I personally wouldn't rate it that highly, but it's easily their best album in the last 10 years.

[JaceTestify]

ADTOE is my #3 DT album, so you're preaching to the choir brother.

I personally wouldn't rate it that highly, but it's easily their best album in the last 10 years.

When it came out I loved it. But I re listened to it the other day, and to me the drumming seemed weaker then I remember... Anyone else feel this?

[hefdaddy42]

No.

[erwinrafael]

ADTOE is my #3 DT album, so you're preaching to the choir brother.

I personally wouldn't rate it that highly, but it's easily their best album in the last 10 years.

When it came out I loved it. But I re listened to it the other day, and to me the drumming seemed weaker then I remember... Anyone else feel this?

Not me. OTBOA, LNF, BITS, and BAI are still drumming gems.

[gzarruk]

ADTOE is my #3 DT album, so you're preaching to the choir brother.

I personally wouldn't rate it that highly, but it's easily their best album in the last 10 years.

When it came out I loved it. But I re listened to it the other day, and to me the drumming seemed weaker then I remember... Anyone else feel this?

Not me. OTBOA, LNF, BITS, and BAI are still drumming gems.

Don't forget Outcry! MM is on fire on the instrumental section 

[JaceTestify]

ADTOE is my #3 DT album, so you're preaching to the choir brother.

I personally wouldn't rate it that highly, but it's easily their best album in the last 10 years.

When it came out I loved it. But I re listened to it the other day, and to me the drumming seemed weaker then I remember... Anyone else feel this?

Not me. OTBOA, LNF, BITS, and BAI are still drumming gems.

Don't forget Outcry! MM is on fire on the instrumental section 

I'll re-listen to it today then I suppose... )))

[Architeuthis]

I personally like DT12 more than ADTOE,  even though they are both very good. I actually like DT12, ADTOE, and TA as much as anything in the entire DT catalog. And yes, I like TA better than Scenes From a Memory by far!

[Dublagent66]

DT hit the peak of their maturity with SDOIT.  It's like reaching the top of a mountain.  Nowhere else to go but down.  They haven't been able to do anything at that level since.  BAI comes very close.  It's like a twin peak in itself but they are definitely in the valley now.  Not sure how a band can be mature at this late stage when they've ventured so far from the roots of what they once were.

So yeah, they really didn't miss the chance but they somehow failed to maintain it.

[Architeuthis]

DT hit the peak of their maturity with SDOIT.  It's like reaching the top of a mountain.  Nowhere else to go but down.  They haven't been able to do anything at that level since.  BAI comes very close.  It's like a twin peak in itself but they are definitely in the valley now.  Not sure how a band can be mature at this late stage when they've ventured so far from the roots of what they once were.

So yeah, they really didn't miss the chance but they somehow failed to maintain it.

I actually think they've matured more since Six Degrees, and that's saying alot! To me they are still on the top of the mountain in no danger of descending.

[Evai]

DT have matured like mature cheddar cheese

The cheese is stronger with every album but that's how I like it