Author Topic: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?  (Read 7833 times)

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Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2017, 11:38:07 AM »
I have to ask into the round though, is it just my perception that the "deltas", i.e. the change from album to album, dropped by a noticeable amount after Octavarium?

It's hard to pinpoint.  I think maybe we liked what they were changing from album to album back then.  Now, maybe the changes,(and all 3 studio albums with MM is different) isn't a sound that we like.  Doesn't mean the songs are lacking or maybe it does.  For myself, I don't like the lack of balance in the mixing(ADTOE), brickwall sound(DT12), and the drums not sounding organic(TA).
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Offline Grappler

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Re: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2017, 11:40:17 AM »
I'd say that they started catering more towards the fans after FII, as one person above suggested. 

Longer songs and even longer songs, more widdly-widdly, NUGGETS, playing with numbers (album 6 has six songs, album 7 has seven songs, album 8 has to have eight songs), etc.  Maybe all of that was started by the 12 Step Suite, where albums (it should just be limited to songs) had to be connected to each other, but to me, the band lost their focus on writing killer songs (re: I&W and Awake had amazing songs that felt epic, but were more condensed than 20 minute songs) and making sure that they engaged their fans with inside jokes hidden in morse code in the drum beat, or wearing their influences on their sleeves. 

It's one thing to say "no more label interference," and it's another to go off the deep end to the extent that they did.  They were capable of writing more concise, typical songs (Forsaken), but needed to pander to what the fans expected and wanted.

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Re: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2017, 11:42:03 AM »
I think they catered to themselves.  They were pushing back at their label wanting more control to do the music they wanted.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?
« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2017, 11:42:21 AM »
I have to ask into the round though, is it just my perception that the "deltas", i.e. the change from album to album, dropped by a noticeable amount after Octavarium?

My two cents:  I think it's hard to quantify, but I guess I would agree with that, for the most part.  At least, I felt like the deltas were fairly small from Octavarium to SC to BCSL.  I think there was a bigger change with ADTOE and DT12.  But I see that is somewhat more of a "course correction" again that got them back to where they were headed earlier (just not as big a course correction as the main one we are discussing in the thread). 

But even if true, is that a problem?  And isn't it to be expected once a band has, essentially, found their identity?  Just asking the question.  To me, it makes sense that, once a band gets a few albums in and are truly "veterans" at their craft, changes from album to album are naturally going to be smaller.  I think it is natural that bands later in their career grow, not by drastically altering what they do, but by honing what they have already established.  Do you disagree?
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?
« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2017, 11:46:27 AM »
I have to ask into the round though, is it just my perception that the "deltas", i.e. the change from album to album, dropped by a noticeable amount after Octavarium?

It's hard to pinpoint.  I think maybe we liked what they were changing from album to album back then.  Now, maybe the changes,(and all 3 studio albums with MM is different) isn't a sound that we like.  Doesn't mean the songs are lacking or maybe it does.  For myself, I don't like the lack of balance in the mixing(ADTOE), brickwall sound(DT12), and the drums not sounding organic(TA).

It's hard to pinpoint. And maybe, for me, it was just fatigue, in the sense that I felt they were just retreading the same ground a lot. For a lot of people this is perfect from what I can gather because they can essentially say "if I feel like style X, I listen to band A, if I feel like Y I listen to B". MM of all said in an interview (paraphrased) "this is DT. If I want to listen to Kreator I will put on a Kreator album".
My preference is to see the artist grow over time of course, but there's definitely different camps among the fan base I think.

EDIT: This post is probably also a convenient response to bosk's post!
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Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2017, 11:49:37 AM »
No, and it's a a wonderful problem to have.  It's longevity and brings these questions up.  A rare few bands continue to evolve.  Many people say Rush evolved every three albums but I can't tell you how many times I heard ,"Nah, it sounds like Rush."

Our ears are trained to hear the subtle differences that others don't.  That's why we have threads like this.

@Rumbo.  It's also 20 some odd years and our taste change over time.  So that might play into it as well. 
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Offline mikeyd23

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Re: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2017, 12:07:06 PM »
I don't really know if they change less from album to album now...

8V to SC was a pretty different shift. I'd say maybe SC to BC&SL was the least they changed from modern album to modern album. I think ADTOE was, while in a lot of ways a throw back to an earlier DT sound, it was still pretty different than the albums that came before it. DT was much weightier and concise and then obviously TA was a big shift.

Offline The Presence of Frenemies

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Re: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?
« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2017, 11:43:04 PM »
Re: the FII-SFAM thing being a point of departure--if it was truly this "never look back" move, I don't think Octavarium would've happened. Stuff like TALW and IWBY are in the FII direction and, I would say, even more out of their norm than the FII stuff like Anna Lee.

Re: the shifts getting smaller recently, sure, but most other bands, even prog ones, reach that point of "diminishing deltas" quite a bit before album 8. That's just the nature of veteran musicians in the vast majority of cases, I think.
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Offline TheOutlawXanadu

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Re: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?
« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2017, 09:02:58 AM »
Interesting thread. I have a few general thoughts, none of which are a response to any specific post or poster:

- Whether or not an artist changes style over time is not a huge deal to me. I think that overthinking that kind of thing can cause one to miss the forest through the trees, so to speak. What matters is whether a riff makes you want to pick up a guitar, or a chorus makes you want to go sing karaoke. :hat

- On the other hand, I also understand that the law of diminishing returns applies to music, and that if you're listening to a band all the time, and then they release an album that's more of the same, that album's impact could be reduced by the familiarity of it all. The solution there, at least in my experience, is to simply not overplay bands too much. Leading up to new albums from artists I like, I'll make a conscious effort to go as long as six months without touching their stuff, which a lot of times is enough to make even their most overplayed hits sound fresh.

- Dream Theater may not make huge changes from album to album, but the changes are significant enough that if you skip between albums in half-decade intervals, the differences are actually quite stark. As an example, I can imagine a new listener being taken a back if you played them Images and Words -> Falling into Infinity -> Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence -> Systematic Chaos -> A Dramatic Turn of Events -> The Astonishing in succession. I must admit, however, that as people have already stated, the differences lessen as you go deeper in that run. :lol

- In comparison to Opeth and Steven Wilson, I see a couple of very obvious differences between them and Dream Theater that explain their varying approaches:

  • Petrucci and Rudess seem to have a very joyful, optimistic view of their music. They love playing what they play. Mikael and Steven, on the other hand, have a more introspective and, dare I say, pretentious approach. Those dudes never seem happy with anything.
  • Dream Theater knocked out their experimental stage early, versus Opeth, who didn't significantly change their sound until around 20 years in.

Now, none of those contrasts apply to Rush, who were experimenting their whole career and don't have an uptight bone in their body (well, at least Geddy and Alex don't, who write all the songs). Please understand that I'm not trying to make brilliant, all-encompassing rationales for why Dream Theater are the way they are. Just making a few observations. :millahhhh

- Frankly, I think that the changes in Opeth and Steven Wilson's music are a little overblown. Don't get me wrong, the shifts from Watershed ->Heritage and The Incident -> Insurgentes were very significant, but since then, they actually haven't changed things much. I would actually argue that the three album run of ADTOE -> The Astonishing has at least as many twists and turns as Heritage -> Sorceress or Grace for Drowning -> Hand. Cannot. Erase. :chill

I'm about to do something that I usually hate. I'm also probably wrong. I'm going to put my Skip Bayless hot take hat on and make a totally random statement devoid of any evidence or support: I think that artists like Opeth, Radiohead, Steven Wilson, etc. sometimes get a little more credit than they deserve for their experimentation because they are always talking about how much they like to experiment. It's kind of like how Mike Portnoy always talked about how he didn't like Falling into Infinity, which then led to some fans who automatically didn't like it.

- While there are many bands who have evolved more than Dream Theater, I think that there are perhaps even more bands, especially within the metal universe, who have actually evolved much less than Dream Theater. Big-time groups like Iron Maiden and Megadeth come to mind. At the end of the day, this is all relative, basically. :tup

Anyhow, just my two cents. Props to anyone who actually read through all that crap.
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Offline TAC

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Re: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?
« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2017, 09:16:20 AM »
Fantastic post TOX, and some great points. Lots to chew on.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?
« Reply #45 on: April 30, 2017, 09:23:53 AM »
I'm not bothered about how much they mature on each album - just that all 14 albums don't sound absolutely the same.

I could never be a big fan of AC/DC, Motorhead, Slayer, Bad Religion etc etc...

Bands where you know how the album will sound before it's out.

Offline mikeyd23

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Re: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?
« Reply #46 on: May 01, 2017, 06:35:31 AM »
Real good post TOX, I agree on most of your points.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?
« Reply #47 on: May 01, 2017, 08:13:14 AM »
That's my TOX.  Clearly a seasoned poster.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?
« Reply #48 on: May 01, 2017, 09:20:43 AM »
Fantastic post TOX, and some great points. Lots to chew on.
Yup.  :TOX:
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Offline fischermasamune

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Re: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?
« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2017, 10:55:10 AM »
First, reaffirming what others had said, DT had Metropolis Pt. II as a demo for FII. That indicates that even if the final result was the FII we all know, this wasn't completely up to them. Had to say FII was an evolution or a sign of maturity when it already had a sapling of the next album which supposedly was a "restart".

Second, about the album variety. Sure, after some albums the deltas start getting smaller. When marking points in a region, even with a random probability, they start getting closer to each other. Unless one expected DT to play in all styles possible to have a very large range of music styles (something they got strongly criticized for in TA; not by me), this return was bound to happen. Also, if one considers the albums in reverse order from TA to WDADU, to analyze their deltas, we discover SFAM doesn't appear to bring anything new to the table, FII is a throwback to the softness of TA and some Octavarium, Awake is a return to aggressiveness, I&W is simply a ADTOE Pt. II, and WDADU also stays in the same range as their previous discography.

Offline The Presence of Frenemies

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Re: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?
« Reply #50 on: May 01, 2017, 05:54:24 PM »
Also, if one considers the albums in reverse order from TA to WDADU, to analyze their deltas, we discover SFAM doesn't appear to bring anything new to the table, FII is a throwback to the softness of TA and some Octavarium, Awake is a return to aggressiveness, I&W is simply a ADTOE Pt. II, and WDADU also stays in the same range as their previous discography.

Man, imagine TA dropping out of nowhere as a band's debut.
Yeah, I have no idea what the cakeless person in that analogy is meant to be eating. If he's got some sort of cake substitute, it should really have been worked into the narrative at some point. As it stands, the options are:

  • Hoard a cake just to stare blankly into its doughy edifice.
  • Make futile chewing motions with your mouth while starving to death.

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?
« Reply #51 on: May 01, 2017, 05:59:18 PM »
But is a progression we are talking about fischermasamune.  Going backwards doesn't work! :lol
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Offline TAC

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Re: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?
« Reply #52 on: May 01, 2017, 06:20:07 PM »
But is a progression we are talking about fischermasamune.  Going backwards doesn't work! :lol

It worked for Rush!


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would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?
« Reply #53 on: May 01, 2017, 06:33:55 PM »
You checked out in the 80s Tim with Rush.  You know bupkis! :lol
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
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Offline TAC

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Re: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?
« Reply #54 on: May 01, 2017, 06:38:13 PM »
In all seriousness, my issue isn't so much with 80's Rush, it's with 90's-00's Rush. I do like Counterparts, and enjoy Presto for what it is, but really, until Clockwork Angels, every album from Hold Your Fire to S&A felt like they were just winging it. THAT is my problem with Rush.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?
« Reply #55 on: May 01, 2017, 06:40:03 PM »
I get it.  They went away from what you loved about them.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
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Offline TAC

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Re: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?
« Reply #56 on: May 01, 2017, 06:46:24 PM »
I get it.  They went away from what you loved about them.

No, that's not it at all. I can at least respect the 80's stuff. After that, it just felt like they weren't really challenging themselves. I mean, I know Neil studied different drum methods and all, but ..
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?
« Reply #57 on: May 01, 2017, 06:49:20 PM »
I think they were.  Challenge themselves sonically.  Sometimes it failed with VT.  Musically,  that was very different for them.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?
« Reply #58 on: May 02, 2017, 08:24:31 AM »
You checked out in the 80s Tim with Rush.  You know bupkis! :lol
Fortunately for me, I never checked in with Rush.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?
« Reply #59 on: May 02, 2017, 08:38:56 AM »
You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave!
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Offline Samsara

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Re: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?
« Reply #60 on: May 02, 2017, 09:25:22 AM »
I get it.  They went away from what you loved about them.

No, that's not it at all. I can at least respect the 80's stuff. After that, it just felt like they weren't really challenging themselves. I mean, I know Neil studied different drum methods and all, but ..

I see what you are getting at. I very much dislike post-Signals Rush until Counterparts. So I am anti-(most of) synth era. That said, I respected the fact they kept evolving. But once they really moved into the 90s, while I very much like records such as Test for Echo, Vapor Trails and Snakes and Arrows, I do admit they don't really push any boundaries or take any leaps. Clockwork Angels is fantastic, sounds a bit different, is a concept album, and frankly, it is one of my favorite Rush records because of that.

So I totally hear what TAC is saying and agree.
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Offline Architeuthis

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Re: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?
« Reply #61 on: May 02, 2017, 11:41:31 PM »
Presto was the album that got me into Rush along with Exit Stage Left. I saw them on the Presto tour for the first time and I was forever hooked, a phenomenal show!  My senior year in high school 1990. I shortly jumped on the Yes and Dream Theater bandwagon afterwards..
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Offline Cyclopssss

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Re: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?
« Reply #62 on: May 03, 2017, 02:38:52 AM »
Just saw them play I&W last week and man, I forgot how much I love hearing these songs played AND ACOS as an encore. Got really emotional hearing those classic songs played. Miss that old style although they have grown.
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Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?
« Reply #63 on: May 03, 2017, 04:50:50 AM »
You checked out in the 80s Tim with Rush.  You know bupkis! :lol
Fortunately for me, I never checked in with Rush.

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I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
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Offline goo-goo

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Re: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?
« Reply #64 on: May 03, 2017, 07:40:57 AM »
I wouldn't say DT missed their chance to mature. I would say their lyric quality has regressed over the years, which is more noticeable after Six Degrees. While the earlier years were more focused on the introspective side, the lyrics from SC and Black Clouds, and a few of them in Octavarium, were just dreadful (Count of Tuscany, Dark Eternal Knight, Octavarium the song, Forsaken) and more fantasy based/oriented. Not sure if it was because they were just cranking albums at a very fast pace. The lyrics were also very straightforward. ADTOE and DT 12, seemed to have returned a bit onto the introspective side with some open interpretation. 

Offline bosk1

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Re: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?
« Reply #65 on: May 03, 2017, 08:25:05 AM »
I would say their lyric quality has regressed over the years, which is more noticeable after Six Degrees. While the earlier years were more focused on the introspective side, the lyrics from SC and Black Clouds, and a few of them in Octavarium, were just dreadful

Yeah, I can't disagree too strongly

(Count of Tuscany, Dark Eternal Knight, Octavarium the song, Forsaken)

Wait, what?
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?
« Reply #66 on: May 04, 2017, 01:21:22 AM »
I think Black Clouds was the non plus ultra for bad lyrics.

They were much better on A Dramatic Turn of Events and since then.

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?
« Reply #67 on: May 09, 2017, 01:07:44 AM »
Listening to their whole discography again, it seems to me that Dream Theater seems to hit the reset button every three albums or so:

Images and Words

Scenes from a Memory

Octavarium

A Dramatic Turn of Events

DT14 (based on recent interviews with band members)?

Octavarium seems to be the odd album out of this bunch, but given the direction they were going in with SDOIT and ToT, Octavarium really felt like DT trying to a more signature sound (Muse-inspired and poppish songs aside).

Offline MirrorMask

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Re: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?
« Reply #68 on: May 09, 2017, 01:30:00 AM »
I remember back in the day that someone (Portnoy?) described Octavarium as a classic / "normal" DT album... after an experimental one (Six Degrees) and a heavy one (Train), Octavarium was the "standard" DT album that was missing since a while.

Don't remember the exact quote but the sense of it was this.
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Offline gzarruk

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Re: Did DT miss its chance to mature as a band?
« Reply #69 on: May 09, 2017, 10:57:51 AM »
Octavarium seems to be the odd album out of this bunch, but given the direction they were going in with SDOIT and ToT, Octavarium really felt like DT trying to a more signature sound (Muse-inspired and poppish songs aside).

Those songs are like half of the album!  :lol
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."