Dear Dream Theater

[Adami]

This is getting very silly.

This has been very silly for a while.



I bet things would have been better if Moore had stayed.

[TAC]

As for "playing just about everything else in the catalog," in the tours since they started touring with Mangini six years ago, Dream Theater has played, from their studio albums, around 90 of their songs.  They have done a tremendous job of covering a shit load of songs from their career in the last six years, even if they do not rotate set lists like the early to mid 00s.

Truth, brother.

Although they don't rotate setlists, every tour in the MM era has had an amazing and varied setlist. Over the course of this time, the list of live tracks has been tremendous!

This is getting very silly.

I bet things would have been better if Moore had stayed.

Then it would've been Moore silly? 

[Madman Shepherd]

Lol wut? It's probably the single thing a musician gets asked about before the gig, where on stage he wants his equipment. I'm pretty sure they weren't told "sorry guys, you have to be at least 10 feet from the edge".

That's a very odd shaped stage so I bet they have to be that far back because that's where the lighting rig is set up.  Have we ever seen them that far back?  I don't remember any time they were.  Why would they all of the sudden have one show where they were back that far?  Obviously it is beyond their control.

How does this even make sense? Birmingham has a venue that can't light the front half of the stage?

Not only that, but the spotlights are always coming from the back. There's zero reason for any of them to stay in the back the whole time, even if their equipment is back there.

Incorrect.  That is a proscenium theatre.  There are lights all around the frame stage and even from the sides.  If they moved up, there would be large dark spots where they play.  The part that juts out which they don't normally have is usually referred to as a thrust.  Sometimes it can be removed for an orchestra or even to add more seats so people are closer to the stage.  This particular stage looks like it is permanently a part of it or perhaps they cannot remove it and put seats so rather than have a huge gaping hole, they just kept it there so occasionally they could come out from behind and get close to the audience. 

I don't even understand how this is a debate.  When there is not a thrust in front of the proscenium, they are right up close to the audience.  Do you really think they showed up and said, "Aw, sweet.  Now we can be 20 feet from the audience!" 

When it is a normal proscenium stage without the thrust portion, it's not as if they push their equipment back to get as far away from the audience as possible.  So why do you think they all of the sudden decided to do this if they could in fact help where their equipment is at?

[Adami]

This is getting very silly.

I bet things would have been better if Moore had stayed.

Then it would've been Moore silly? 

Well yea. Moore or less.

[rumborak]

Incorrect.  That is a proscenium theatre.  There are lights all around the frame stage and even from the sides.  If they moved up, there would be large dark spots where they play.  The part that juts out which they don't normally have is usually referred to as a thrust.  Sometimes it can be removed for an orchestra or even to add more seats so people are closer to the stage.  This particular stage looks like it is permanently a part of it or perhaps they cannot remove it and put seats so rather than have a huge gaping hole, they just kept it there so occasionally they could come out from behind and get close to the audience. 

I don't even understand how this is a debate.  When there is not a thrust in front of the proscenium, they are right up close to the audience.  Do you really think they showed up and said, "Aw, sweet.  Now we can be 20 feet from the audience!" 

When it is a normal proscenium stage without the thrust portion, it's not as if they push their equipment back to get as far away from the audience as possible.  So why do you think they all of the sudden decided to do this if they could in fact help where their equipment is at?

Those are nice fancy words. Do they make it somehow better that DT was far removed from the audience in Birmingham?
Maybe the simple answer here is, "don't book symphony venues. DT doesn't move around much, they will look lost".

[Madman Shepherd]

Incorrect.  That is a proscenium theatre.  There are lights all around the frame stage and even from the sides.  If they moved up, there would be large dark spots where they play.  The part that juts out which they don't normally have is usually referred to as a thrust.  Sometimes it can be removed for an orchestra or even to add more seats so people are closer to the stage.  This particular stage looks like it is permanently a part of it or perhaps they cannot remove it and put seats so rather than have a huge gaping hole, they just kept it there so occasionally they could come out from behind and get close to the audience. 

I don't even understand how this is a debate.  When there is not a thrust in front of the proscenium, they are right up close to the audience.  Do you really think they showed up and said, "Aw, sweet.  Now we can be 20 feet from the audience!" 

When it is a normal proscenium stage without the thrust portion, it's not as if they push their equipment back to get as far away from the audience as possible.  So why do you think they all of the sudden decided to do this if they could in fact help where their equipment is at?

Those are nice fancy words. Do they make it somehow better that DT was far removed from the audience in Birmingham?
Maybe the simple answer here is, "don't book symphony venues. DT doesn't move around much, they will look lost".

Well now you're just changing the argument.  I wasn't using fancy words to be condescending.  I was trying to explain something to someone that clearly didn't understand why the stage was shaped that way. 

As it stands, you're right in the sense that it does look awkward.  I never argued it didn't. If all their shows were setup that way, I'd be like "Hey, John Myung...talk some sense into the guys!"  As far as not booking those places,that's not how tour routing works.  Don't worry, I'll refrain from using fancy words but basically if the option is not booking a show on a certain date because a venue with a better stage wasn't available or sticking it out and not losing a bunch of money but risking three people complaining about how far back Dream Theater plays, well...I guess we know what they will choose. 

[ToT-147]

There is no discrimination mentioned, so please take that nonsense somewhere else and stop making an issue where there doesn't need to be one.  That isn't what this thread is about.

Yes, it was mentioned.. You don't make a comment, however cynical it may be, from nowhere.. Oh, and keep coming the Kevin Bacon jokes, I don't get them anyways..

I think this isn't a thread about Kevin Bacon either.. Or is it?..

[Bertielee]

I'm with Evermind on this one. Discussions are running round in circles and, above all, only a few people tend to monopolize the talking. When I open a thread on this part of the forums, I almost exactly know the content I'm gonna find. Here, in France, we are in the middle of a presidential election, and frankly, some of you guys remind me a lot of our candidates, and it's not in your favor.

B.Lee

[MarkFitDT]

I'm with Evermind on this one. Discussions are running round in circles and, above all, only a few people tend to monopolize the talking. When I open a thread on this part of the forums, I almost exactly know the content I'm gonna find. Here, in France, we are in the middle of a presidential election, and frankly, some of you guys remind me a lot of our candidates, and it's not in your favor.

B.Lee

I agree completely with this and what Evermind posted. I'm all for constructive criticism but some of the posts on here are ridiculous. As soon as I see certain posters have posted on virtually ANY thread I know what is about to follow - A negative slant on any situation to justify in their mind that DT aren't as good as they used to be or are more distant from their fans than they used to be.

[noxon]

Let's turn it around:

Given that it is in my power to actually provide feedback and maybe get DT to do something differently - what would they be required to do to not get the same old claim of "they're not doing enough"? 'Cause that's literally my job in the DT organization. I've tried to do a lot of what I thought people actually wanted, but apparently it is not enough, so you gotta tell me what would they need to do for you to feel "loved"?

[MinistroRaven]

I'm with Evermind on this one. Discussions are running round in circles and, above all, only a few people tend to monopolize the talking. When I open a thread on this part of the forums, I almost exactly know the content I'm gonna find. Here, in France, we are in the middle of a presidential election, and frankly, some of you guys remind me a lot of our candidates, and it's not in your favor.

B.Lee

I agree completely with this and what Evermind posted. I'm all for constructive criticism but some of the posts on here are ridiculous. As soon as I see certain posters have posted on virtually ANY thread I know what is about to follow - A negative slant on any situation to justify in their mind that DT aren't as good as they used to be or are more distant from their fans than they used to be.

And if that is how the genuinely feel, what should they do? Lie to make those who love the band all and beyond satisfied?

[MinistroRaven]

BTW here's my reply to KevShmev:

Were any of those official bootlegs free?

Of course not. But the videos MP offered up on his site every year were, as were the fan club CDs that were released (and he was directly involved in 9 of them). Even then, I'd still rather have the choice of purchasing numerous official bootlegs rather than get just one free.

You seem to forget that the set lists had gotten pretty static late in Portnoy's tenure with the band. I doubt they will ever rotate set lists again like they did from 2002-2006.  Even if Portnoy had stayed in the band, it never would have been like that again on a regular basis.

The setlists were still more varied in MP's later years with the band than what DT did on the ADToE tour. Sure there were staple songs that MP made sure were in most setlists, but those comprised half the setlist at most. Look at the shows where they did 2 shows in a row in the same city, even in 2008-2010 and you'll see the setlists are extremely different. As for what would've happened if he had stayed with the band, that's all conjecture; I could say just the opposite.

Besides, it's not that the band is incapable of rotating set lists now, or doesn't want to put in the work to do so. They do not want to do it.  And they have stated their reasons, which are very legitimate.

Fine for them, but the question noxon raised is

What hasn't dt done for the fans since mp left?
Rotating setlists is certainly one of the big points, no matter what reasons are given.

That is true, but the fact remains that a double disc concept album is still something they have given us that they never did when Portnoy was in the band, so taking the "DT doesn't do things they did when MP was in the band" stance ignores the fact that DT IS doing things they never did with Portnoy.

Again, we're talking about what the band has done for the fans, and I'd say putting out a divisive album, whether a concept album, a double album or both still is a negative. And this point of your's is really splitting hairs. While MP was with the band, they put out one pure concept album; three if you count the second disc of Six Degrees and Octavarium. And they did put out a double album, half of which is certainly a concept album on it's own.

That some diehard fans love.  Not everyone loved them covering albums/songs, just like not everyone loved them playing Space Dye Vest.

Sure not everyone's going to love all the covers, but there were plenty that did and it was just one more extra that made DT stand out as different to them.

As for "playing just about everything else in the catalog," in the tours since they started touring with Mangini six years ago, Dream Theater has played, from their studio albums, around 90 of their songs.  They have done a tremendous job of covering a shit load of songs from their career in the last six years, even if they do not rotate set lists like the early to mid 00s.

You know, for curiosity's sake, I took the time to compare the list of songs over equal time periods (2004-2010 vs. 2011-2017) because I wanted to see how true your statement is. Here's what I found (based on studio versions of the songs):
- from 2011-2017, they played 91 different songs (not including the No-Mac tracks) totaling 10 hours, 3 minutes + 3 covers for an additional 19 minutes = 94 songs/10h 22m
- from 2004-2010, they played 85 different songs totaling 11 hours, 33 minutes + 40 different complete covers for an additional 4 hours, 43 minutes (based on official bootlegs) = 125 songs/16h 16m
I'm surprised that there's not a bigger difference than there is for DT originals, but with MP there still is 1.5 hours of more material that was performed than without him. The higher number of songs from the MM-era is obviously because of TA's short songs. I know you'll argue that the covers shouldn't count, but I would say they should since they were part of the live set. The fact that MP managed to cover as much ground as he did with DT's originals and all those covers in that time period is a testament to him.

[Bertielee]

I'm with Evermind on this one. Discussions are running round in circles and, above all, only a few people tend to monopolize the talking. When I open a thread on this part of the forums, I almost exactly know the content I'm gonna find. Here, in France, we are in the middle of a presidential election, and frankly, some of you guys remind me a lot of our candidates, and it's not in your favor.

B.Lee

I agree completely with this and what Evermind posted. I'm all for constructive criticism but some of the posts on here are ridiculous. As soon as I see certain posters have posted on virtually ANY thread I know what is about to follow - A negative slant on any situation to justify in their mind that DT aren't as good as they used to be or are more distant from their fans than they used to be.

And if that is how the genuinely feel, what should they do? Lie to make those who love the band all and beyond satisfied?

Look, You've only been here for a short period of time. I've been on the forum for10 years now and when I make the claim that's it's only a few people who monopolize the talking, I know what I'm talking about. Plus, read my post again : I never talked just about those having a negative opinion. Frankly, some opinions here are so predictable that they've become stereotypes.

B.Lee

[nobloodyname]

As soon as I see certain posters have posted on virtually ANY thread I know what is about to follow - A negative slant on any situation to justify in their mind that DT aren't as good as they used to be or are more distant from their fans than they used to be.

This works for many different subjects, though, no matter your personal slant. Eg: Kotowboy (sorry to pick on you!) will probably post positively re Metallica, and negatively re Mike Portnoy.

Just ignore what you need to. If everyone took their opinions elsewhere, this would be a rather dull place to visit.

[Bertielee]

As soon as I see certain posters have posted on virtually ANY thread I know what is about to follow - A negative slant on any situation to justify in their mind that DT aren't as good as they used to be or are more distant from their fans than they used to be.

This works for many different subjects, though, no matter your personal slant. Eg: Kotowboy (sorry to pick on you!) will probably post positively re Metallica, and negatively re Mike Portnoy.

Just ignore what you need to. If everyone took their opinions elsewhere, this would be a rather dull place to visit.

You're right, but some posts belong to private messages when they only concern two or three individuals.

B.Lee

[mikeyd23]

I'm going to choose to not get involved with a lot of this, however, this seems worthwhile.

Let's turn it around:

Given that it is in my power to actually provide feedback and maybe get DT to do something differently - what would they be required to do to not get the same old claim of "they're not doing enough"? 'Cause that's literally my job in the DT organization. I've tried to do a lot of what I thought people actually wanted, but apparently it is not enough, so you gotta tell me what would they need to do for you to feel "loved"?

First off, thank you for offering this. Second, I'm not a vocal critic of the current lineup, I think it's a great lineup and that overall they are doing a fantastic job. Are there things they could do better? Sure. But for the most part, I think they are doing great.

The two things I think they could consider would be (1) rotating set lists again (personally, I never go to more than one show per tour, so this doesn't matter much to me, but the MP crew seems to go back to this every time) and (2) consider releasing new bootlegs from ytsejam records.

[MarkFitDT]

just to clarify my post - ive got nothing wrong with differing opinions and constructive criticism. To say that I want people to lie and say everything is fine and dandy is ridiculous. My point was one or two posters just seem to post with a negative slant on everything. DT is not perfect and I would never say they are and I don't expect every single post to have a positive slant. Having opinions is good but some of the posts on this thread have been silly (imo)

[goo-goo]

 (2) consider releasing new bootlegs from ytsejam records.

This.

[Nitefly]

Hello! First post and dream theater noob just browsing ahead of the Cardiff gig tomorrow. You all, err, seem to get along   

I'm actually struck by just how many seats there are left to Cardiff. I know there were a lot of seats to sell but dayyyymn. Also, it's not the whole of the arena so a lot of the 'greyed out' areas on ticketmaster we're never for sale, at least not the back 1/4 or even the back 1/3. Evidently not priced correctly.

Also wtf is this verification stuff to just post.... terribad!

[Podaar]

Hello! First post and dream theater noob just browsing ahead of the Cardiff gig tomorrow. You all, err, seem to get along   

I'm actually struck by just how many seats there are left to Cardiff. I know there were a lot of seats to sell but dayyyymn. Also, it's not the whole of the arena so a lot of the 'greyed out' areas on ticketmaster we're never for sale, at least not the back 1/4 or even the back 1/3. Evidently not priced correctly.

Also wtf is this verification stuff to just post.... terribad!

Welcome to DTF.

DO NOT MAKE JOKES! DT is serious business

The white zone is for loading and unloading only. If you need to load or unload go to the white zone. You'll love it. It's a way of life.

[bosk1]

Well, for those who are new here, it may seem a bit strange.  But if you want to hang around here long term, the one crucial piece of information to keep in mind is

[King Postwhore]

bosk1 loves Pull Me Under and it is a way of life for him.

[hefdaddy42]

*stereotypical post*

[Prog Snob]

Let's turn it around:

Given that it is in my power to actually provide feedback and maybe get DT to do something differently - what would they be required to do to not get the same old claim of "they're not doing enough"? 'Cause that's literally my job in the DT organization. I've tried to do a lot of what I thought people actually wanted, but apparently it is not enough, so you gotta tell me what would they need to do for you to feel "loved"?

Stop letting the few spoiled and nitpickers represent the rest of us. There are many of us here who always appreciate what they band does. You also forget to include the tens of thousands of fans around the world who don't post here, who probably buy every album, love everything the band does, and consider themselves lucky just to see them play live ONCE.

P.S.  I hope you aren't going to write the lyrics to Never Enough 2. 

[bosk1]

Cut myself open again
This isn't the first time
All for you
To be happy

[Mladen]

Let's turn it around:

Given that it is in my power to actually provide feedback and maybe get DT to do something differently - what would they be required to do to not get the same old claim of "they're not doing enough"? 'Cause that's literally my job in the DT organization. I've tried to do a lot of what I thought people actually wanted, but apparently it is not enough, so you gotta tell me what would they need to do for you to feel "loved"?

You, sir, are a God.

Just let them know they should keep doing whatever they honestly want to do and be happy. 

[Bertielee]

Let's turn it around:

Given that it is in my power to actually provide feedback and maybe get DT to do something differently - what would they be required to do to not get the same old claim of "they're not doing enough"? 'Cause that's literally my job in the DT organization. I've tried to do a lot of what I thought people actually wanted, but apparently it is not enough, so you gotta tell me what would they need to do for you to feel "loved"?

You, sir, are a God.

Just let them know they should keep doing whatever they honestly want to do and be happy. 

[ToT-147]

Let's turn it around:

Given that it is in my power to actually provide feedback and maybe get DT to do something differently - what would they be required to do to not get the same old claim of "they're not doing enough"? 'Cause that's literally my job in the DT organization. I've tried to do a lot of what I thought people actually wanted, but apparently it is not enough, so you gotta tell me what would they need to do for you to feel "loved"?

You, sir, are a God.

Just let them know they should keep doing whatever they honestly want to do and be happy. 

This.. Although I'm pretty sure they're already doing that.. So tell them nothing..

[bosk1]

There is no discrimination mentioned, so please take that nonsense somewhere else and stop making an issue where there doesn't need to be one.  That isn't what this thread is about.

Yes, it was mentioned..

No it wasn't.  There was nothing discriminatory even hinted at anywhere in the thread, so let it go.

[Another_Won]

Let's turn it around:

Given that it is in my power to actually provide feedback and maybe get DT to do something differently - what would they be required to do to not get the same old claim of "they're not doing enough"? 'Cause that's literally my job in the DT organization. I've tried to do a lot of what I thought people actually wanted, but apparently it is not enough, so you gotta tell me what would they need to do for you to feel "loved"?

Just let them know they should keep doing whatever they honestly want to do and be happy. 

Well yes of course.  But if I were to humbly request . . . I'd like to see more ytsejamrecords releases.  They did say they were going to keep that going.

[cramx3]

Let's turn it around:

Given that it is in my power to actually provide feedback and maybe get DT to do something differently - what would they be required to do to not get the same old claim of "they're not doing enough"? 'Cause that's literally my job in the DT organization. I've tried to do a lot of what I thought people actually wanted, but apparently it is not enough, so you gotta tell me what would they need to do for you to feel "loved"?

If I could ask for one thing from DT, I think I would ask for rotating setlists to come back.  I think that unknown of what songs you will see brings a lot of excitement to the tour as well as encourages people to see multiple shows.  I'd be cool if they got rid of the click track as well, even if that means they hold back on a better stage show (same with rotating setlists).

[ToT-147]

There is no discrimination mentioned, so please take that nonsense somewhere else and stop making an issue where there doesn't need to be one.  That isn't what this thread is about.

Yes, it was mentioned..

No it wasn't.  There was nothing discriminatory even hinted at anywhere in the thread, so let it go.

Yeah man, it was 'hinted', if you want, by two users, as a joke.. I already explained that I didn't realize the first of them was a joke so I responded to it as if was a serious comment.. That was my only mistake or "nonsense", although I wouldn't call it that way.. It was a misunderstanding.. The comment of the Bender's guy was the one that ended up exaggerating that little confusion (which had already been clarified) and thus leading the conversation away from the main topic of the thread..

So let's go back to it.. Let's see.. Even if I got wrong that first comment, the factor I mentioned back then still stands in relation of what the OP was saying or complaining in the first place: the fact that not everyone has the money to go to every concert DT does, and even less if they're the expensive they are these days.. And yeah, of course that if you don't have the money and because of that you can't go then there's nothing to do about it.. But we're not robots, and it does hurt when you have to miss a show of one of your favorite bands for a reason like that..

I mean, seeing those empty seats in these days' shows is really painful.. I think I agree that they should lower the ticket prices, and that way they wouldn't even be loosing too much, because the people would actually go to see them; and I'm not saying that's an easy thing to do.. But probably for next tour they can consider better the situation..

[King Postwhore]

Hey, I'm that Bender guy!

For them to have a better stage production,  you have to ask for more money.  That being said, the spotinaity of the past shows that were cheaper are not the same.

Money isn't the reason they are seeing empty seats right now.

[bosk1]

Money isn't the reason they are seeing empty seats right now.

Agreed.  I mostly blame pelvic sorcery.

[King Postwhore]

You'd think that would draw then in!