Dear Dream Theater

[cramx3]

So, now people are complaining about stage space...    Get a fucking hobby already. What's next - criticizing their haircuts? Oh wait...

I think it's a fair point to discuss considering this thread brought up a perception of distance between the band and the fans and then we see an actual visual representation of that.

[goo-goo]

They release more material through the bootleg department (ytsejam and fan clubs) than official releases through any other label.

Well, they did release a lot through those avenues, yes.  But that was also not really sustainable.  Mike's vaults are huge.  I don't underestimate that, because the guy kept EVERYTHING.  But the thing is, a great deal of what fans would really want and pay for has already been put out there.  Ytsejam was slowing down during the Roadrunner years with Portnoy, and there is a reason for that.

Interesting comment. Could you elaborate on this or is this something you can't comment on?

Edit: I totally respect if you can't comment, just curious.

[noxon]

Regarding the official bootlegs and fan club cds:

Fan Club cds were actually closed down in 2004. The fact that we managed to continue on with the fan club releases for 4 years after that was luck and persistance from our part - i made a proposal for a project for 2005, and we used stuff we filmed in that project for the 2006 release as well. The 2007 release was IAW 15th and the 2008 release was prog nation tour. But we were quite clearly told to "get by by ourselves" already from 2004, and finally it "stuck" in 2008.

Official Bootlegs:
"Demos" portion was already done. No more to be released from this series. Simply because DT stopped doing demos.
"Studio" portion could probably be compiled more of, but in reality these were not highly sought after.
"Covers" portion could probably have a few more compilations, but the "album series" was done.
"Live" portion is where you could do stuff, but after a while it gets pretty darn repetetive, and not very interesting for anyone but the hardcore fans and the people attending a specific show. Those live shows selected were pretty much chosen due to their notoriety in DT history.

So I do not think we'd see that many official bootlegs even with MP continuing in the band.

XMas gift; same thing. When did MP last release a xmas gift?

[bosk1]

Yeah, I think Noxon covered it.  There isn't really anything "secret" that can't be commented on.  Fans pretty much know what unreleased material is out there that would be cool to have.  The vast majority of truly prized material was released, and the Ytsejam release schedule was slowing down as a result.  It's kind of a bummer we didn't get that last set that Mike says he had prepared to release, because I seem to recall that it had a live set from BCSL, which we do not have anywhere.  But otherwise, although DT continues to be pretty prolific, in terms of quality bonus content, there just isn't a whole heck of a lot left that they could give us without really starting to scrape the bottom of the barrel before too long.

[goo-goo]

Thanks Noxon and Bosk1 for your insight.

Would of loved for an official release of the Fan Club Unplugged show and a BCLS gig. A bootleg from the Yes tour in 2004 would have been good to. I liked that setlist a lot.

[cramx3]

I think an official bootleg of a show from TA might be sought after, otherwise I totally agree with Noxon and why we aren't getting more of those releases.

[bosk1]

I think an official bootleg of a show from TA might be sought after...

I agree.  Unfortunately, I don't think it is in the cards.  They didn't film any of the shows.  They had originally planned to on the second leg.  But the way the tour actually got booked and how that deviated form what the band had wanted/intended really screwed that up.  I mean, they could release just audio I guess.  But I don't really care too much about that.  If I'm only going to listen, I may as well listen to the studio version. 

[rumborak]

That's a world of difference though. Look at the horizontal cabling running in front of the floor monitor for Hatebreed, it almost touches those stage indentations on each side. Now look at JP's floor monitor cable, where that goes.

Not really. The drum rizers and the monitors are placed almost as far back. it just seems that they're closer because there's more clutter on the stage and people are in front of their monitors.

Are you now disagreeing with geometry? I mean, the cabling provides a perfect measuring device in this case. DT are a solid 5 feet further back than Hatebreed, for seemingly no good reason.

[ToT-147]

Higher ticket prices are designed by the band intentionally. They're getting up there in age and the last thing they need is to throw a hip trying to strike a rock 'n roll pose for a large audience of enthusiastic, young, poor, fans. This way, the audience will be more their age and income level which is easier to relate to. Plus, they get no grief from the wife about young groupies in the front row screaming and pulling their hair out. Instead, the front row is filled with pot bellied men, with full wallets, who don't have any hair left to pull out. More money for merch, too.

It's actually quite clever when you think about it.

You forgot to add that it's also quite prejudiced and discriminatory..

*childish comment*

You probably should ask before draw a conclusion like that.. Even though another person (this thread's OP I think) didn't thought either of that comment being sarcastic, maybe you should take two things into account for the next time: 1) Not every user on this forums are english native speakers, so it's already hard to understand the content and meaning of everything you guys write everytime (and more in this kind of interesting threads, when I personally read pretty much all the comments)... but to follow when a specific regional/national joke or a sarcastic comment or anything like that is taken place is a completely different animal, and only some of us can get them all.. I read it again now and I can't say it was obvious sarcasm either..

2) and probably more important even when it's so obvious, any of us can't see each other.. I mean, this isn't RF, and even there sometimes you don't know when someone has just said something sarcastic or not.. But yeah, in general you do realize due to the tooone of voice... And that's something we don't have here.. What we do have here?.. The green font?.. Well, as the guy said way before your insulting comment, he forgot to add it.. And, either way, I wouldn't have answer him if the comment were something else, but I couldn't let it be and just leave it like that for other ppl to see it and actually believe it..

So, next time, instead of just make fun of me I invite you to just point it out to let me know (although in this case I already knew by the guy's clarification)..

Having said that, name at least one other time *I* didn't get a sarcastic comment, because apparently you give my responses more importance than I do, and you might know this better than myself.. I'm serious..

[bosk1]

We really need some Kevin Bacon in this thread.

[Evermind]

I've spent like ten minutes thinking of a reply to some of the posts above that won't get me any warning here, but I've got nothing. This thread and some of the replies here just remind me why I don't frequent the DT side anymore. The only way it's useful for me now is to find people to put to my ignore list (this isn't directed at the OP).

Sorry for that brief bit of bitterness, now that I'm here, I might as well contribute to the actual discussion. Regarding the prices, I always thought DT had fairly-priced tickets for any of the Russian shows (they didn't come here for either TA tour or the current one). I think the most expensive one was their AFTR tour, and that cost me like $50 for GA, but that was also the show I've managed to get into the front row, so it was worth every cent I've spent.

But, I mean, sometimes there are instances where the price seems too steep. For example, the Nightwish show I've been at in 2016 cost me like $80 for GA (not counting M&G which had to be paid for separately), and it wasn't three hours or anything, just a regular show. At the same time, when Avantasia came here, also in 2016, the tickets were like $30 for all the 3+ hours show, lots of amazing singers and overall way better show than Nightwish presented. If I wasn't so interested in seeing Nightwish live with Floor, I probably would've passed that show (as did my friends who are usually always there with me at the shows I go to).

[Prog Snob]

So, now people are complaining about stage space...    Get a fucking hobby already. What's next - criticizing their haircuts? Oh wait...

I think it's a fair point to discuss considering this thread brought up a perception of distance between the band and the fans and then we see an actual visual representation of that.

I think people are bored and looking for anything to nitpick about. Do you really think the band was having this discussion?

JP: Nah, we're too close. Those people in the front row always look dirty, too. I want to create a distance between us.
JR: And they're always winking at me
JLB; Yarrrr, yah dirty slobs.
JP: So, we need to play on deeper stages and move as far back as possible because not only do we need to mentally be separated from our fans, but physically, too.
JM: ...
JR: Yes, JP. You're right. That's such an Astonishing idea.
JM: ...
JP: So, it's settled. We hate our fans so let's distance ourselves from them in any way possible.










































MM: Why am I always left out of the discussion? Even the silent man gets a few dots in.

[cramx3]

  I certainly don't think they have similar discussions, just that it might be an after thought.  I mean maybe there are real logistical reasons why as well, I don't know, I'l let Rumbo and Noxon argue that part, but I personally think they don't even think about these things because they have more than enough on their minds, but someone in the band's management should think about things like this.

[bosk1]

I've spent like ten minutes thinking of a reply to some of the posts above that won't get me any warning here, but I've got nothing. This thread and some of the replies here just remind me why I don't frequent the DT side anymore. The only way it's useful for me now is to find people to put to my ignore list (this isn't directed at the OP).

Sorry you feel that way.  And it's a fair point.  Not sure which side of some of the issues you fall on, but you should be able to post your thoughts.  I admit that oftentimes, there is a tendency to go too far on either side.  There has always been somewhat of a tendency to whine and nitpick over things that are somewhat ridiculous.  On the other side, there is a tendency to jump down a poster's throat when they whine and nitpick over things that are somewhat ridiculous.  The problem with the latter is that people (myself included) sometimes just get tired of reading the same types of things over and over, or we know a bit more inside information about how things work than the average person, so we lose patience and are a bit too quick on the trigger.  On either side, there can be a lack of patience for the opposing view.  It's good to have a reminder every now and then that such patience is needed.

[Prog Snob]

I certainly don't think they have similar discussions, just that it might be an after thought.  I mean maybe there are real logistical reasons why as well, I don't know, I'l let Rumbo and Noxon argue that part, but I personally think they don't even think about these things because they have more than enough on their minds, but someone in the band's management should think about things like this.

I'm sure it's just the way it happened. Though it would be really funny if they read the posts about the band not doing as much as MP used to and intentionally played on deeper stages just to fuck with us. Now that would be funny. 

[noxon]

I don't wanna keep rethreading the water, but:

I found another angle of the hatebreed gig, which was more similar to the DT gig. I overlayed it over the DT stage:


So yes, "geometry".

It doesn't have a perfect match of the angle (the hatebreed one seems to be taken lower down than the DT one) but you still can CLEARLY see that both stages feature a very deep setup. Hatebreed is slightly closer, but not much.

[noxon]

And i mean; This one jsut explains it COMPLETELY. Look at where the stage roof ends. It's like 3 meters from the stage end. Speakers hang at that roof end not the stage end. The deep setup is just necessary due to stage limitations, not that the bands want to be 15 meters from the first row..

[ToT-147]

It's not even about talking, it's just about a general interaction.  Eye contact, moving close to the fans at the edge of the stage, getting people to clap or chant, pointing at the person who is going nuts.  It could be a lot of things.  MP was very good at that.

Being he a drummer, I find that hard to believe, and OTOH I know he didn't do that... because neither he or any other drummer could.. But ok, I get your point now.. And even when I still couldn't say I give to those aspects more importance than the show itself or the performance or the setlist or the sounding (or even the venue), and I think you're right, yeah, MP did a lot of that, because of how he is... then again, JLB does almost all these things you're mentioning.. But yeah, I get it, he's not MP..

(...) But then again, numbers are valid only if put into context.

(...) the only thing I really feel like it has changed the way I look at them is that somehow they've really regress in terms of maturity: they used to be cool, to write very interesting arrangements, to write deep lyrics (e.g. Voices) ecc...
And then they did SC and never fully recover from that.

And opinions are valid in context too.. And I think, for everything I have heard/read since MP's departure, the majority thinks the other way around.. That their songwriting is more mature, that they seem more happy while playing, even that the lyrics are deeper now (excepting TA).. Lyrics like the ones in SC, ANtR and TCoT are almost constantly critiziced and memed; but since then, everytime the lyrics could reflexively speak about life and such (again, this excepts TA because of its fictional purpose) they were way deeper than in the previous... what? four albums?... And that not to say before lot of songs were very abstract, like KM's or Scarred, etc.. Now they're much more clearer and straightforward while still having the poetic side..

So, now people are complaining about stage space...    Get a fucking hobby already. What's next - criticizing their haircuts? Oh wait...

I think people are bored and looking for anything to nitpick about. Do you really think the band was having this discussion?

JP: Nah, we're too close. Those people in the front row always look dirty, too. I want to create a distance between us.
JR: And they're always winking at me
JLB; Yarrrr, yah dirty slobs.
JP: So, we need to play on deeper stages and move as far back as possible because not only do we need to mentally be separated from our fans, but physically, too.

I think this is the first time I agree with you.. Actually this was obviously what that comment of Podaar was implying, whether its final sentence was sarcastic or not.. We all know there are people who actually thinks like that, and there are entire bands that think like that..

[bosk1]

@noxon:  Interesting.  Yeah, DT is still back a bit farther.  But not much.  It's just an add stage.  Not sure why they don't equip it so bands can be farther forward.

[rumborak]

I don't wanna keep rethreading the water, but:

I found another angle of the hatebreed gig, which was more similar to the DT gig. I overlayed it over the DT stage:


So yes, "geometry".

It doesn't have a perfect match of the angle (the hatebreed one seems to be taken lower down than the DT one) but you still can CLEARLY see that both stages feature a very deep setup. Hatebreed is slightly closer, but not much.

I disagree on whether it's "not much". As you can see in the original Hatebreed pic, the singer is also bouncing around in front of those floor monitors. In the Birmingham video, James almost never ventured in front of that invisible line between JM's and JP's gear. The whole band looks removed from the audience. I'm not saying it's the end of the world, but it just all plays into the general feeling that since MP's departure the band has grown more distant to its fans.

[noxon]

Explain todays setup then:

[rumborak]

What is there to explain? It's good that today they have a good setup. You're not suggesting that the last two nights are somehow made better by today's smaller distance to the crowd, are you?

[ToT-147]

The whole band looks removed from the audience. I'm not saying it's the end of the world, but it just all plays into the general feeling that since MP's departure the band has grown more distant to its fans.

Yeah, I think I kinda agree with that, but I'd add: or ..at least it seems like that... Because that's, again, due to MP's personality.. He was clearly the most extroverted guy in the band, and therefore is obvious that if he wasn't in the band anymore the sociability with us would fall a bit.. But I think we couldn't just say that they don't care for us or that they don't want us near them (I mean: M&Gs, Q&As, you're forgetting things like these).. All DT guys were always appreciative of the fanbase they have... one guy just happen to expressed it more or better than the rest, that's all..

[Podaar]

We all know there are people who actually thinks like that, and there are entire bands that think like that..

I really hope I'm misunderstanding you. I really do. Do you actually believe there are bands who think like Prog Snob's obviously sarcastic conversation? I can honestly say I've never been witness to any such attitude. Furthermore, I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's fantastically unlikely.

[ToT-147]

We all know there are people who actually thinks like that, and there are entire bands that think like that..

I really hope I'm misunderstanding you. I really do. Do you actually believe there are bands who think like Prog Snob's obviously sarcastic conversation? I can honestly say I've never been witness to any such attitude. Furthermore, I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's fantastically unlikely.

You're not.. Beyond the jokes and the sacarstic comments, obviously there's people who thinks that way.. It's called discrimination, and unfortunately there's plenty of it in our planet.. Now, I'm not saying DT does that, of course, although they easily might think like that, who knows that but only them?; but no, *I* was the one who didn't get the sarcasm in your yesterday's comment; my bad for that.. But if not you, then other people in this very thread is saying that, for whatever reason, they don't want us near them.. One of the reason could be at least one of the things you mentioned in that comment..

[bosk1]

There is no discrimination mentioned, so please take that nonsense somewhere else and stop making an issue where there doesn't need to be one.  That isn't what this thread is about.

[Podaar]

I was going to attempt a reasoned response but was really struggling on where to start. Rescued by bosk1!

o/

[bosk1]

*\o

Now if only Kevin Bacon would help with the removal of those sticks, we could move on.

[CB]

I honestly think all the discussion about a distance between the band and the audience is superfluous. At almost every show the band is performing very close to the audience. At almost every show I've seen live or on youtube JLB is running around so close to the edge of the stage that I sometimes fear he'd fall off. When JP and JR are doing their (duet) solos they are as close to the audience as possible. There are very few exceptions and these exceptions mostly seem to be in the UK - perhaps because they play in theaters there that are built for a different kind of event like classic concerts, theater or musicals. I'm 200% convinced that DT doesn't WANT a distance to their fans.

[Setlist Scotty]

So I do not think we'd see that many official bootlegs even with MP continuing in the band.

I disagree. While the demo series might have played out, the studio series would have been happening. And with his vault chock full of shows over the entire career of the band, you can be sure he would have picked out various shows to release. Especially from the Evening With tours, there was a lot of variety in the setlists so that at least a couple of shows from each tour could've been released. Not to mention the shows since 2010 (assuming he was still with the band). And of course, the covers would have also continued, so I'm sure the cover series wouldn't have ended either. There were plenty of bands you can be sure he would've been ready to pick to have DT cover.
 
 

Lyrics like the ones in SC, ANtR and TCoT are almost constantly critiziced and memed; but since then, everytime the lyrics could reflexively speak about life and such (again, this excepts TA because of its fictional purpose) they were way deeper than in the previous... what? four albums?

And this has to do with MP how? JP wrote most of the lyrics on SC, as well as ANtR and TCoT.

[TAC]

It was already frustrating even with MP in the band, and the releases really slowed to a trickle.

[KevShmev]

What hasn't dt done for the fans since mp left?

Rotating setlist, official bootleg releases (through Ytsejam Records and the Fan clubs), surprises every single Christmas morning, info about the recording process of new material to name a few

They rotated set lists on the ADTOE tour.

The rest is nitpicking. I am sure we could think of some equally nitpicky things the band has done since 2010 that they never did with Portnoy.

 Nitpicking? Really? Whatever.

They release more material through the bootleg department (ytsejam and fan clubs) than official releases through any other label.

Whould you list those nitpicking things they've done since 2010 that they never did with MP?

-Gave the fans an entire live CD for FREE on Christmas morning.
-Had a 2-song acoustic set EVERY NIGHT on the ADTOE tour, which was rotated from show to show.
-Gave us a double disc concept album.
-Played Space Dye Vest live.
-All of that online interactive stuff related to The Astonishing.

Shall I go on?

[MinistroRaven]

What hasn't dt done for the fans since mp left?

Rotating setlist, official bootleg releases (through Ytsejam Records and the Fan clubs), surprises every single Christmas morning, info about the recording process of new material to name a few

They rotated set lists on the ADTOE tour.

The rest is nitpicking. I am sure we could think of some equally nitpicky things the band has done since 2010 that they never did with Portnoy.

 Nitpicking? Really? Whatever.

They release more material through the bootleg department (ytsejam and fan clubs) than official releases through any other label.

Whould you list those nitpicking things they've done since 2010 that they never did with MP?

-Gave the fans an entire live CD for FREE on Christmas morning.
-Had a 2-song acoustic set EVERY NIGHT on the ADTOE tour, which was rotated from show to show.
-Gave us a double disc concept album.
-Played Space Dye Vest live.
-All of that online interactive stuff related to The Astonishing.

Shall I go on?

  Ha!

What about the following:

- Gave the fans an entire live CD for FREE on Christmas morning ONE time VS. giving fans a variety of video clips multiple years as well as 3-4 official bootlegs every 1-2 years
- Had a 2-song acoustic set EVERY NIGHT on the ADTOE tour, which was rotated from show to show and swapping a maximum of 6 songs between 2 shows for ONE tour 5-6 years ago, but keeping a static setlist for every tour since VS. arranging to have between 3.5 to 6.0 hours of material rehearsed during every tour for 9 consecutive years to swap out and play back-to-back shows in the same city with (almost) completely different setlists
- Gave us a double disc concept album that has split the fanbase in half VS. giving us a single CD concept album that is almost universally loved by the fanbase
- Played Space Dye Vest live VS. playing just about everything else in the catalog, including early, rare/obscure and cover tracks that the diehard fans love
- All of that online interactive stuff related to The Astonishing which was cool initially but didn't amount to much VS. I got nothin'
 
Shall I go on? 

[KevShmev]

What about the following:

- Gave the fans an entire live CD for FREE on Christmas morning ONE time VS. giving fans a variety of video clips multiple years as well as 3-4 official bootlegs every 1-2 years
 

Were any of those official bootlegs free?

- Had a 2-song acoustic set EVERY NIGHT on the ADTOE tour, which was rotated from show to show and swapping a maximum of 6 songs between 2 shows for ONE tour 5-6 years ago, but keeping a static setlist for every tour since VS. arranging to have between 3.5 to 6.0 hours of material rehearsed during every tour for 9 consecutive years to swap out and play back-to-back shows in the same city with (almost) completely different setlists

You seem to forget that the set lists had gotten pretty static late in Portnoy's tenure with the band. I doubt they will ever rotate set lists again like they did from 2002-2006.  Even if Portnoy had stayed in the band, it never would have been like that again on a regular basis. 

Besides, it's not that the band is incapable of rotating set lists now, or doesn't want to put in the work to do so. They do not want to do it.  And they have stated their reasons, which are very legitimate.

- Gave us a double disc concept album that has split the fanbase in half VS. giving us a single CD concept album that is almost universally loved by the fanbase

That is true, but the fact remains that a double disc concept album is still something they have given us that they never did when Portnoy was in the band, so taking the "DT doesn't do things they did when MP was in the band" stance ignores the fact that DT IS doing things they never did with Portnoy. 

- Played Space Dye Vest live VS. playing just about everything else in the catalog, including early, rare/obscure and cover tracks that the diehard fans love

That some diehard fans love.  Not everyone loved them covering albums/songs, just like not everyone loved them playing Space Dye Vest.

As for "playing just about everything else in the catalog," in the tours since they started touring with Mangini six years ago, Dream Theater has played, from their studio albums, around 90 of their songs.  They have done a tremendous job of covering a shit load of songs from their career in the last six years, even if they do not rotate set lists like the early to mid 00s.

[Skeever]

This is getting very silly.