Poll

What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?

Progressive (IAW, Awake, SDOIT, SFAM)
85 (49.7%)
Heavy (TOT, SC)
53 (31%)
Melodic (8VM, DT12, TA)
13 (7.6%)
Epic-Orchestral (BC&SL, ADTOE, WDADU)
6 (3.5%)
Light (FII)
14 (8.2%)

Total Members Voted: 171

Author Topic: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?  (Read 9972 times)

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Offline bosk1

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Re: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?
« Reply #70 on: May 11, 2017, 09:09:56 AM »
With or without this interview, I'm not sure how anyone could have realistically expected that the direction for the album after The Astonishing could have been anything but what Jordan described. 
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Re: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?
« Reply #71 on: May 11, 2017, 09:37:38 AM »
I'd like them to just all sit in a room together, including James, to scat over stuff, and put together 10 or 11 songs as a group, with a continued focus on being concise. But just something organically written by all of them together.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?
« Reply #72 on: May 11, 2017, 09:54:28 AM »
I'd like them to just all sit in a room together, including James, to scat over stuff

And who is supposed to clean that up?
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?
« Reply #73 on: May 11, 2017, 10:10:39 AM »
lol
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Offline Adami

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Re: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?
« Reply #74 on: May 11, 2017, 10:11:09 AM »
I'd like them to just all sit in a room together, including James, to scat over stuff

And who is supposed to clean that up?

Oh you Germans.
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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?
« Reply #75 on: May 11, 2017, 11:10:10 AM »
If they re-recorded I&W and called it DT14, that'd work for me.

Offline ToT-147

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Re: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?
« Reply #76 on: May 11, 2017, 12:19:26 PM »
I'd like them to just all sit in a room together, including James, to scat over stuff, and put together 10 or 11 songs as a group, with a continued focus on being concise. But just something organically written by all of them together.

But that's what they did with most of DT12 and some songs of ADToE, right?..

It's clear from his interviews over the years that Jordan is not a metal fan and he prefers the more prog side of Dream Theater.  If he had his way then maybe TA would be indicative of where he wants the band to go.  It is not up to him though, it is really going to be JP who decides what happens next and he is a metal fan, not to the extent that Portnoy was, but a fan nonetheless.  I really don't think it was ever in doubt that he would bring the metal back on this album whether or not TA was a success.

The next album will be a reaction to TA to the extent that JP will not want to do the same again but it will not be a knee-jerk reaction to some fans not liking TA as they would always have been prepared for that as it was so different to anything they've done before.

Yeap, all of this..
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Offline bosk1

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Re: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?
« Reply #77 on: May 11, 2017, 01:02:52 PM »
I'd like them to just all sit in a room together, including James, to scat over stuff, and put together 10 or 11 songs as a group, with a continued focus on being concise. But just something organically written by all of them together.

But that's what they did with most of DT12 and some songs of ADToE, right?..

I wish my memory was as good as Scotty's.  It isn't, so I might be off here.  But as I recall, for ADTOE, the four of them absent Mangini got together, putting together ideas mostly composed by JP and JR.  For DT12, if I remember correctly, James was not present, but otherwise it was kinda the same thing:  the other four put the songs together from ideas mostly composed by JP and JR. 

I think what Samsara is describing is the five of them getting together with FEW pre-composed pieces and just jamming out ideas together to see what comes out, and all of them working together to put the songs themselves together based on what comes out of that. 

But as far as I know, they haven't used that approach in a long time.  That's basically the approach that JM was referring to in the WDADRU commentary that they had long since moved on from.  And even in the early days, it didn't involve the vocalist.  They made it clear in the Majesty and early-DT days that that is not what they wanted the vocalist to do.  The vocalist's role was not to write the music; that was to be left to the instrumental musicians.  The vocalist's role was to [paraphrasing; and in order of priority/frequency] perform the vocal melodies after the song had been written, to sometimes write some vocal melodies, and to occasionally offer some limited input into the song-writing.  That was the model.  That is, as I understand it, a big part of why James became somewhat disengaged during the writing process for SFAM, even though he was physically there, and spent more of his time doing things like being outside playing basketball than sitting in the studio not doing anything while the guys were writing.  That's part of what led to them telling him that they DID want him to be present and be more engaged (among other things) in the SDOIT era. 
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Offline rumborak

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Re: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?
« Reply #78 on: May 11, 2017, 03:45:54 PM »
Going back to Samsara's comment, I'm gonna go on a limb here and say that between ADTOE and DT12, the former is the more popular one. However, given that DT12 was actually the one closer to Samsara's idea of an ideal writing session, it's clear that that approach doesn't necessarily correlate with the "quality" of it.
In my perception, JP and JR have been at the songwriting helm for so long, it probably doesn't matter who else is in the room. It's kinda like identical twins who complete each other's sentences at this point.
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Offline ToT-147

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Re: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?
« Reply #79 on: May 11, 2017, 04:06:32 PM »
being outside playing basketball

That always gets me.. :lol

Btw, thanks for your reply..

Going back to Samsara's comment, I'm gonna go on a limb here and say that between ADTOE and DT12, the former is the more popular one. However, given that DT12 was actually the one closer to Samsara's idea of an ideal writing session, it's clear that that approach doesn't necessarily correlate with the "quality" of it.
In my perception, JP and JR have been at the songwriting helm for so long, it probably doesn't matter who else is in the room. It's kinda like identical twins who complete each other's sentences at this point.

Yeah, I think I was about to add that too in my previous comment.. With MP things were different, and he (don't know about JM) did contribute a lot to the whole JP/keyboard player's way of composing almost every time.. And what an album they did when they decided to improvised more than usual and bring an entire album in three weeks!.. But that was then; nowadays I supose you're right.. I'm not sure if an album composed by the five (more or less 20% each) would be better than one made 70% -or more- by JR and JP, just like the last three albums were..
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Offline bosk1

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Re: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?
« Reply #80 on: May 11, 2017, 04:08:15 PM »
Going back to Samsara's comment, I'm gonna go on a limb here and say that between ADTOE and DT12, the former is the more popular one. However, given that DT12 was actually the one closer to Samsara's idea of an ideal writing session, it's clear that that approach doesn't necessarily correlate with the "quality" of it.

If your assumption is true about which album is more popular, that is a REALLY interesting observation. 

In my perception, JP and JR have been at the songwriting helm for so long, it probably doesn't matter who else is in the room. It's kinda like identical twins who complete each other's sentences at this point.

I think that is probably true to a point.  But I still see value to having the others in the room as well for this simple reason:  Sometimes, it only takes something small to take a song from good to great.  The JP/JR combination alone might not stumble upon that one small thing on their own.  But maybe they are playing something pretty cool, and JM in turn launches into a uber cool bass line that only came up because he was there in the moment rather than writing a bass line after the fact.  Or maybe Mangini plays a drum pattern JP wouldn't have thought of, and that inspires JP to add certain little flourishes he otherwise wouldn't have thought of.  You just never know. 

But I know I'm sort of preaching to the choir when I say that it is probably optimal to have everyone present during the entire thing.  I know a lot of bands simply don't function that way, and DT seems like a band that can function that way or not and still put out a level of quality that they and most fans are generally happy with, so... :dunno:
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Offline rumborak

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Re: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?
« Reply #81 on: May 11, 2017, 05:06:27 PM »
If I had to take a guess at what could make things more varied, I think it would be if they gave themselves more time with their songs. If you look at ACOS and its evolution, you see they revised a lot of things, constantly improving on the tune. I think if they wrote songs on the road, people like MM and JM could add ideas after having dwelled on things for a bit.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?
« Reply #82 on: May 11, 2017, 05:17:18 PM »
Call me crazy, but to me songwriting should be something that happens organically, not on a schedule.

"Hey fellas, we are scheduled to write today between 1 and 5, so let's hop to it."

Now, I get that some of my favorite bands have written great songs when writing "on a schedule," but it seems like DT had this rule for a while that "we go into the studio with nothing and all write together," which seems like a goofy way of writing songs. 

"Hey John, I know that melody you brought in sounds pretty awesome, but you wrote it on your own without the rest of us around, so chuck it."

Offline Adami

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Re: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?
« Reply #83 on: May 11, 2017, 05:25:11 PM »
Call me crazy, but to me songwriting should be something that happens organically, not on a schedule.

"Hey fellas, we are scheduled to write today between 1 and 5, so let's hop to it."

Now, I get that some of my favorite bands have written great songs when writing "on a schedule," but it seems like DT had this rule for a while that "we go into the studio with nothing and all write together," which seems like a goofy way of writing songs. 

"Hey John, I know that melody you brought in sounds pretty awesome, but you wrote it on your own without the rest of us around, so chuck it."

But how long ago did they have that rule? Even as far back as BCSL, John was bringing in completed songs.
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Re: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?
« Reply #84 on: May 11, 2017, 09:25:04 PM »
Call me crazy, but to me songwriting should be something that happens organically, not on a schedule.

"Hey fellas, we are scheduled to write today between 1 and 5, so let's hop to it."

Now, I get that some of my favorite bands have written great songs when writing "on a schedule," but it seems like DT had this rule for a while that "we go into the studio with nothing and all write together," which seems like a goofy way of writing songs. 

"Hey John, I know that melody you brought in sounds pretty awesome, but you wrote it on your own without the rest of us around, so chuck it."

But how long ago did they have that rule? Even as far back as BCSL, John was bringing in completed songs.

Beneath the Surface was another song fully written by JP, which he brought to the band after a while.

Offline Adami

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Re: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?
« Reply #85 on: May 11, 2017, 10:21:47 PM »
Call me crazy, but to me songwriting should be something that happens organically, not on a schedule.

"Hey fellas, we are scheduled to write today between 1 and 5, so let's hop to it."

Now, I get that some of my favorite bands have written great songs when writing "on a schedule," but it seems like DT had this rule for a while that "we go into the studio with nothing and all write together," which seems like a goofy way of writing songs. 

"Hey John, I know that melody you brought in sounds pretty awesome, but you wrote it on your own without the rest of us around, so chuck it."

But how long ago did they have that rule? Even as far back as BCSL, John was bringing in completed songs.

Beneath the Surface was another song fully written by JP, which he brought to the band after a while.

Yea, I think just about every album since BCSL has had a JP only song. Dunno about DT12 though.
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Offline nikatapi

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Re: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?
« Reply #86 on: May 12, 2017, 02:49:06 AM »
Yeah it seems like a very structured process. I'm really wondering how much input JM has at the recent albums, even though DT12 had some cool JM & MM moments. More of that would be very welcome.

Also, i kind of miss JP's jazzy, more fusion style that up until SDOIT was coming up at points. After that, he seems to have gotten more rock-metal oriented with his playing and writing style. Getting these influences back would be certainly interesting to see.

Finally, as many of us keep saying, MM seems to be underutilized and his sound doesn't do justice to his playing. Hopefully this time we'll get a more organic and dynamic sound. Guitar can be turned down a bit to give way to MM's cymbal intricacies in the mix.

Offline genome

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Re: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?
« Reply #87 on: May 12, 2017, 02:54:12 AM »
Call me crazy, but to me songwriting should be something that happens organically, not on a schedule.

"Hey fellas, we are scheduled to write today between 1 and 5, so let's hop to it."

Now, I get that some of my favorite bands have written great songs when writing "on a schedule," but it seems like DT had this rule for a while that "we go into the studio with nothing and all write together," which seems like a goofy way of writing songs. 

"Hey John, I know that melody you brought in sounds pretty awesome, but you wrote it on your own without the rest of us around, so chuck it."

Yes and no, they are a business after all, so they have to keep this ticking over on a fairly regular basis.

Sometimes it's good to limit yourself with a schedule. There's less chance of becoming perfectionist and overthinking things, or going back and constantly tweaking arrangements or riffs.

If you leave all the time in the world to write, you end up like Tool.

Offline MirrorMask

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Re: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?
« Reply #88 on: May 12, 2017, 03:10:27 AM »
It may also come down to their lifestyle. They're no longer hungry kids with all the afternoons free to jam endlessly, they're family men with obligations and children to take care of; they may not even want to dedicate that much time to write and compose away from the setting where they're used to do it, the actual studio.

At a certain point even if the passion remains, as undoubtely the guys still all have, it becomes a job. Like football players, sure they must love to kick that ball, but would they be up, after so many weekly trainings and international matches, to play on a day off an entire match in the courtyard like street kids do?

Offline KevShmev

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Re: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?
« Reply #89 on: May 12, 2017, 06:09:00 AM »
Good points.  I suspect JP and JR have almost always come to the studio armed with riffs and melodies they had come up with on their own, that they then formed into songs once the band was together and the songwriting process took on a more official stance.



But how long ago did they have that rule? Even as far back as BCSL, John was bringing in completed songs.

I think that was the rule on one or two of the albums in the 00s, IIRC.



Finally, as many of us keep saying, MM seems to be underutilized and his sound doesn't do justice to his playing. Hopefully this time we'll get a more organic and dynamic sound. Guitar can be turned down a bit to give way to MM's cymbal intricacies in the mix.

Honestly, I''l be stunned if that happens.  They are 0-3 so far in getting a great sound out of Mangini's drums, and it's hard to believe they will suddenly figure it out.

Offline mikeyd23

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Re: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?
« Reply #90 on: May 12, 2017, 06:16:17 AM »
Honestly, I''l be stunned if that happens.  They are 0-3 so far in getting a great sound out of Mangini's drums, and it's hard to believe they will suddenly figure it out.

I tend to agree, unfortunately at this point, really nailing a great drum sound for MM would be a pleasant surprise.

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Re: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?
« Reply #91 on: May 12, 2017, 07:38:39 AM »


I think what Samsara is describing is the five of them getting together with FEW pre-composed pieces and just jamming out ideas together to see what comes out, and all of them working together to put the songs themselves together based on what comes out of that. 

But as far as I know, they haven't used that approach in a long time.  That's basically the approach that JM was referring to in the WDADRU commentary that they had long since moved on from.  And even in the early days, it didn't involve the vocalist.  They made it clear in the Majesty and early-DT days that that is not what they wanted the vocalist to do.  The vocalist's role was not to write the music; that was to be left to the instrumental musicians.  The vocalist's role was to [paraphrasing; and in order of priority/frequency] perform the vocal melodies after the song had been written, to sometimes write some vocal melodies, and to occasionally offer some limited input into the song-writing.  That was the model.  That is, as I understand it, a big part of why James became somewhat disengaged during the writing process for SFAM, even though he was physically there, and spent more of his time doing things like being outside playing basketball than sitting in the studio not doing anything while the guys were writing.  That's part of what led to them telling him that they DID want him to be present and be more engaged (among other things) in the SDOIT era.

yes, what bosk is saying is exactly what I meant.
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Re: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?
« Reply #92 on: May 12, 2017, 12:38:08 PM »
I think 8VRM and Train of Thought merged together would be a great album...

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Re: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?
« Reply #93 on: May 12, 2017, 01:42:39 PM »
I think 8VRM and Train of Thought merged together would be a great album...

I agree. OVM needs better songs and TOT needs to be more balanced/softer songs.

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Re: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?
« Reply #94 on: May 12, 2017, 03:50:43 PM »
Now, I get that some of my favorite bands have written great songs when writing "on a schedule," but it seems like DT had this rule for a while that "we go into the studio with nothing and all write together," which seems like a goofy way of writing songs. 

"Hey John, I know that melody you brought in sounds pretty awesome, but you wrote it on your own without the rest of us around, so chuck it."

So wait, this was really a thing?... Because I remember JP saying in several occasions that he always record whatever -good- idea that comes to mind (which I think is an obvious and almost necessary thing to do btw).. It's safe to say that JR does the same... And I'm sure those kind of ideas are involved afterwards in the actual process of creating the songs.. So they do write "together" (mostly JP and JR) but also separately, whether it be complete songs or just ideas.. What percent belongs to which one would be the thing to know..
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Re: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?
« Reply #95 on: May 12, 2017, 05:48:10 PM »
Honestly, I''l be stunned if that happens.  They are 0-3 so far in getting a great sound out of Mangini's drums, and it's hard to believe they will suddenly figure it out.

I tend to agree, unfortunately at this point, really nailing a great drum sound for MM would be a pleasant surprise.

Well his drum sound has improved with each album.

Offline Adami

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Re: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?
« Reply #96 on: May 12, 2017, 05:54:30 PM »
Honestly, I''l be stunned if that happens.  They are 0-3 so far in getting a great sound out of Mangini's drums, and it's hard to believe they will suddenly figure it out.

I tend to agree, unfortunately at this point, really nailing a great drum sound for MM would be a pleasant surprise.

Well his drum sound has improved with each album.

Agree about TA. I'd actually call ADTOE to DT12 a downgrade in drum sound.
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Re: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?
« Reply #97 on: May 12, 2017, 06:00:11 PM »
Honestly, I''l be stunned if that happens.  They are 0-3 so far in getting a great sound out of Mangini's drums, and it's hard to believe they will suddenly figure it out.

I tend to agree, unfortunately at this point, really nailing a great drum sound for MM would be a pleasant surprise.

Well his drum sound has improved with each album.

Agree about TA. I'd actually call ADTOE to DT12 a downgrade in drum sound.

Definitely, I love the ADTOE drum sound actually. It is a bit raw and I guess "weak" but the drums themselves actually sound pretty nice.
DT12 toms and kick sound triggered, cymbals sound like they are all paper thin 14" splashes and the discussion about the snare has been beaten to death, so I won't even start that.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2017, 06:47:39 PM by jakepriest »
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Re: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?
« Reply #98 on: May 12, 2017, 06:46:38 PM »
Honestly, I''l be stunned if that happens.  They are 0-3 so far in getting a great sound out of Mangini's drums, and it's hard to believe they will suddenly figure it out.

I tend to agree, unfortunately at this point, really nailing a great drum sound for MM would be a pleasant surprise.

Well his drum sound has improved with each album.

Agree about TA. I'd actually call ADTOE to DT12 a downgrade in drum sound.

Definitely, I love the ADTOE drum sound actually. It is a bit raw and I guess "weak" but the drums themselves actually sound pretty nice.
DT12 toms and kick sound triggered, cymbals sound like they are all paper thin 14" splashes and the discussion about the snare has been beaten to death, so I won't even start to that.

Yes! Finally! I thought I was the only one... :)))

Offline bosk1

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Re: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?
« Reply #99 on: May 15, 2017, 09:16:27 AM »
I haven't had a problem with the drum sound on any of the albums (although I do miss the MP "punch" at times).  For me, it's more that the cymbals are buried and almost inaudible on the first two.
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Offline Renzo

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Re: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?
« Reply #100 on: May 15, 2017, 11:04:49 AM »
I haven't had a problem with the drum sound on any of the albums (although I do miss the MP "punch" at times).  For me, it's more that the cymbals are buried and almost inaudible on the first two.

True, even I think there isn't a bad-sounding DT album in recent days but I find TA's drum sound to be more balanced than their previous two.. I think that this is the sound they should go with the drums in DT14, or maybe they could hit us with a diverse sound, more punchier, as following the heavy direction they seem to take on the next record.  :metal

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Re: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?
« Reply #101 on: May 15, 2017, 01:27:47 PM »
I haven't had a problem with the drum sound on any of the albums (although I do miss the MP "punch" at times).  For me, it's more that the cymbals are buried and almost inaudible on the first two.

I think on DT12 they sounded a bit muddy and lacking in space. Not a lot of room sound.

Offline red barchetta

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Re: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?
« Reply #102 on: May 15, 2017, 06:28:11 PM »
Went jogging today. As I like to hear my breathing and foot pacing, I don't run a lot with earplugs and music along the way but today I did and it was with the album ADTOE. What a great album. Love the sound of the drums and I often noticed the great bass playing by JM. Just hoping that these two get a better sound and presence in the mix.
With all respect, sincerely yours

Offline Peter Mc

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Re: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?
« Reply #103 on: May 16, 2017, 06:43:32 AM »
Now, I get that some of my favorite bands have written great songs when writing "on a schedule," but it seems like DT had this rule for a while that "we go into the studio with nothing and all write together," which seems like a goofy way of writing songs. 

"Hey John, I know that melody you brought in sounds pretty awesome, but you wrote it on your own without the rest of us around, so chuck it."

So wait, this was really a thing?... Because I remember JP saying in several occasions that he always record whatever -good- idea that comes to mind (which I think is an obvious and almost necessary thing to do btw).. It's safe to say that JR does the same... And I'm sure those kind of ideas are involved afterwards in the actual process of creating the songs.. So they do write "together" (mostly JP and JR) but also separately, whether it be complete songs or just ideas.. What percent belongs to which one would be the thing to know..

I very much doubt they went in with nothing, I seem to remember a JR interview around the time of the SDOIT sessions where he was saying that he was upset as most of the stuff he was bringing in was being rejected and it was difficult to get in between Mike and JP when they were in full on metal Pantera mode.  I think people would have brought some stuff in but not fully formed songs (apart from Wither obviously) so it would be like "hey listen to this riff" and then they would jam some stuff out and see what happened.

With regards to the stuff about it being all JP/JR since Mike left, I do remember JM commenting in the ADTOE sessions that he was enjoying sitting down with JP like the old days and coming up with riffs and stuff so he was certainly involved in the writing of that album, how involved I don't know obviously but it sounded like he was more involved than he had been on previous recent albums.

Offline Pax

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Re: What kind of album would you like DT14 to be?
« Reply #104 on: May 24, 2017, 11:13:58 AM »
Since I'm into Genesis very much lately, I'd love some very progressive stuff that's also melodic

But with long songs culminating to the epic parts DT is famous for (ITPOE the reckoning, for example)
Also, heavyness here and there is ok, wasn't there for a while
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