Is the ability to train musical "muscles" finite, or no?

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

I'm not really sure where this particular topic should go, so if it belongs elsewhere, please move it.

I was listening to an old Racer X song today (Racer X being the old band of my favorite guitarist, Paul Gilbert), and I’m struck with the notion that it was a monumental misstep on my part to not sit down with a metronome as a teenager and discipline myself to practice to the point that I could play like what I hear on that recording.  THAT is the way I want to be able to play guitar.  I will forever be in pursuit of that kind of ability and I feel like it will always elude me.

I suppose maybe if I were to sit down for an hour or so a day and work hard with a metronome, it’s possible that maybe I’m not just stagnant and destined to never be capable of improving (not saying “I’m the best I can be”, but saying “I’m only the best that I have pushed myself to be”).  Maybe I CAN get better.  Maybe I CAN still train myself to play faster licks than I ever thought possible (don't regale me with tales of how "speed isn't everything", I know).  Do you guys think that this sort of ability is finite and that as one gets older, the ability to actually improve upon it isn’t possible or do you think that if you take the time and work hard enough, there’s STILL no limit to what you can play?

[Chino]

I suppose maybe if I were to sit down for an hour or so a day and work hard with a metronome, it’s possible that maybe I’m not just stagnant and destined to never be capable of improving

That's possible. I could overhaul my entire diet and spend the next twenty years training for marathons and I'll still never beat a Kenyan.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

But Paul Gilbert was born in America.

Seriously though, that's the kinda thing that occurs to me.  It does bother me to think that some people can work that hard and play things that are unimaginably difficult, while I might make an effort to work that hard and never come close.  I don't know if musical "muscles" for lack of a better term work the same way as a marathon runner or a weight lifter.

[Chino]

But Paul Gilbert was born in America.

Seriously though, that's the kinda thing that occurs to me.  It does bother me to think that some people can work that hard and play things that are unimaginably difficult, while I might make an effort to work that hard and never come close. I don't know if musical "muscles" for lack of a better term work the same way as a marathon runner or a weight lifter.

Sure they do. Musical muscles might be even more complex for that matter. When you're a marathon runner, you're perfecting one of the most ingrained instincts mammals have, the ability to flee if needed. Humans are the best endurance creatures on the planet, and your body has been shaped by evolution to run and breathe very efficiently.

Music on the other hand is a 100% learned skill. Your fingers are moving in ways that aren't really needed in nature. You're independently controlling your left and right hands while syncing them to a beat and other music. Your brain is firing on all cylinders. It's reading music (eyes), interpreting timing either by feel or sound (ears), mentally mapping what your hands are holding, and somehow magically making your fingers land where they are supposed to.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that playing music is incredibly taxing on your brain and your muscle memory. It's a very unnatural skill, and it should come as no surprise that many struggle simply trying to learn it. Like any skill, the gene pool you came from is a very crucial variable, and when you're doing an activity that didn't shape genes over time like running, you're going to get very few people who can play like Paul Gilbert. Everyone has a plateau regardless of what they're pursuing, and I think with music that stopping point comes relatively early.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

I've always suspected that to be the case.  That certain people, like PG are naturally gifted with some sort of genetic code that allows them to play things that mere mortals would never be able to achieve, no matter how much they practice.

[Stadler]

I go back and forth on this as well.  I think it's closer to infinity than not, but I also think that for some of us the effort required to get there may not be feasible/reasonable.   I play about 1/2 hour to an hour a day but it's very unstructured.  I don't sit with a metronone, and I don't have a set routine.  I run through songs I know and try to add a little bit more to each one (or add new songs).   I'm progressing at a pace that I ought to be able to join a working band sometime in 2030 or so. 

I think a guy like Paul Gilbert or a Yngwie Malmsteen has to have some physical facility - in the way that LeBron is simply a better athlete than Charles Barkley  - but that they also made a commitment.   They didn't likely fuck around with broads after school, or hang out in cars bashing mailboxes with their friends.  They had to play 5, 6, 7 or more hours every day, diligently.

Do we honestly know anyone at the level of a Van Halen or Portnoy or Mangini that just stumbled onto it?   I don't. 

[Chino]

I think a guy like Paul Gilbert or a Yngwie Malmsteen has to have some physical facility - in the way that LeBron is simply a better athlete than Charles Barkley  - but that they also made a commitment.

But is being extremely committed enough? You could be the most committed person on earth and still not be anywhere near the best. Pretty much everyone in the olympics has dedicated their lives to their activities. Someone still comes in last place. Some people still don't even qualify despite it being their only priority in life.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

If nothing else, this has inspired me to consider taking the time and effort to improve.  I never thought I'd be able to play the solo to Bark at the Moon.  The end part with the constant 16th notes is the hardest part.  So I took the tab I found for it, determined what the actual notes were, and rewrote it in several different ways, with different position shifts until I found a way to play it that was most comfortable for me.  Then I started practicing it with a metronome.  I can play it now.  It's still hard and I still have to go back and work on it sometimes, but I did it.  With as difficult as that is, I fear that stuff a lot further than that COULD be out of reach.  I hope not.

[Kotowboy]

I know on my music degree that I practiced one piece for hours and never got better or more confident about it.

It's really annoying actually.

However I have noticed that the more I write and record my own stuff - the better my solo playing gets.

[bl5150]

The athletics example above is a good one -  Paul Gilbert is Usain Bolt.    You will never get sub 10 secs in a 100m sprint but you may go some way towards it , improving your time from say 14sec to 12 sec with lots of hard work.  But beyond a certain point (even more so as we age) the reward from the hard work is capped and may just maintain what you have already achieved.   You don't have the levers, the fast twitch muscle fibres etc.....

I played guitar for 12 years (8yo -20yo) and relatively speaking I think I was a pretty decent player.  Unfortunately the peak of my powers coincided with the death of the hard rock scene in the early - mid 90's .    Most aspects of playing came to me eventually with hard work but one thing I never mastered , no matter how hard I tried, is sweep picking.  And yet you could find a 12yo girl on Youtube doing it better than I ever could after a decade of playing.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

It's disgusting, isn't it? 

[bl5150]

You betcha 

[hefdaddy42]

You can definitely increase your capability from what it is now.

You may not ever reach the capability that Paul Gilbert has.  He's a freak.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

The inspiration for this thread:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MhcYW3m9-M

I could get through the first 25-30 seconds probably and plenty of other parts throughout, but there's stuff in there that's just inhuman.

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

For me practicing drums is all about what you practice and how you practice it, not so much about the practice in itself. I can easily "waste" hours on playing stuff I already kind of know. I find myself improving quicker whenever I have an idea on what exactly my weaknesses are on a certain part or difficult groove and then figuring out what exactly I need to practice to feel more relaxed and comfortable and honestly most of the times it's all about starting slow and work your way up, preferably with a metronome. Even if it may sound obvious I think alot of people cheat including myself sometime and start at a higher tempo than you should or that you increase the tempo too quickly.

In my most active practice period in my life during school, whenever I had a difficult rudiment, etude or difficult section or groove or whatever I always started in a very slow tempo and when I thought it sounded good at that tempo I recorded myself and if it sounded good I would raise 5 bpm and do it all over again. That way you get a very articulate and precise sound and feel because your hands, fingers and mind are insync at every tempo.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

That was something I heard all through my teen years and didn't have the patience to apply it.  It's how I managed to learn the Bark at the Moon solo a few years ago.  SLOWLY with a metronome until I could do it.  Then bump it up some.  Eventually I got there.

[hefdaddy42]

FWIW, that's the strategy that John Petrucci preaches for learning new or difficult pieces.

SLOW first, steadily increasing the speed, until you are at the necessary tempo.

Of course, he practiced for 8 hours a day for 20 years, so what does he know?  #Poser

[rumborak]

There's no doubt that it gets harder over the years to add new knowledge. At the same time, I feel it also often comes down to how people don't know how to learn properly. I have seen guitar players struggling with a tiny section of a solo, and their way of practicing it was to play the whole solo from beginning to end, over and over. So, they were playing 98% of the time something they could play totally fine, and only 2% of their time was spent on the part they struggled with.

[Kotowboy]

Also. I know I'll never be Petrucci or Vai so I don't try. And that's fine with me.

I stick to working on my strengths and weaknesses til I'm happy with my ability.

Basically if I can get onto my guitar what I hear in my head I'm good.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

Of course that's most important, and my intent wasn't to try to be something I'm not.  However, if I'm improvising a solo live and something comes into my head. as influenced by one of my many guitar heroes, I want to have the command of the instrument to be able to make it happen, not attempt it, fail, and realize that it's something I'm not capable of.

[PowerSlave]

I've often wondered the same things about my playing before I gave it up. I've been having the urge to play and write again lately, so I may find out. But if it starts feeling like a task it might be enough to make me stop playing again. I've never been a great guitar player, but I've always been an ok guitar player. Maybe it's ok to accept that and just try to enjoy the instrument in a somewhat limited way.

[BlobVanDam]

FWIW, that's the strategy that John Petrucci preaches for learning new or difficult pieces.

SLOW first, steadily increasing the speed, until you are at the necessary tempo.

Of course, he practiced for 8 hours a day for 20 years, so what does he know?  #Poser

I thought the advice that Petrucci gave was KILL YOURSELF

[Stadler]

There's always the "10,000 hours" theory, which has some merit, but still requires other elements, like "discipline" and the knowledge about how to practice the most effectively.   

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

KILL YOURSELF

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD7ZnJdi2rY

[hefdaddy42]

FWIW, that's the strategy that John Petrucci preaches for learning new or difficult pieces.

SLOW first, steadily increasing the speed, until you are at the necessary tempo.

Of course, he practiced for 8 hours a day for 20 years, so what does he know?  #Poser

I thought the advice that Petrucci gave was KILL YOURSELF

That too