Ethical Craigslist Dilemma

[Chino]

Firstly, let me preface with a timeline

March 2015: A campaign launches on Kickstarter for a 3D printer called Tiko. I pledge $179 dollars for the printer
April 2015: Campaign ends and 16,500 people backed the project in total
December 2015: No printers delivered
December 2016: 3500 printers are delivered
March 2017: Company appears to have run out of money and 13,000 people may never receive their unit.

Secondly, I always try and research who I am selling to if I can since I like not getting held at knifepoint in random meeting places if I can avoid it. I looked the purchaser up on Facebook, and the only matching name was someone who I am guessing is on this forum as they are friends with 7 or 8 people from here. So, Josh, if you plan on buying a printer this afternoon, don't!

I'm one of the lucky few that received a printer. I never plugged the thing in because I bought a better and more superior printer while waiting for my Kickstarter one to arrive. These Tiko things are not great quality, and I've seen only a handful of successful prints out of thousands of attempts. Many have arrived with flaws and are DOA out of the box.

I put my printer on Craigslist over 60 days ago and didn't get any interest, but for some reason I've received nearly a dozen inquiries in the last week. I listed it at $150 assuming I'd get talked down. One person offered me $40, but the majority of offers were in the $70-$100 range, which is exactly what I was expecting. I received an email two days ago from someone offering me the full $150.

On one hand, I feel bad about taking this person's $150. Odds are, they are never going to get a successful print off this thing. Best case scenario, they get something that prints terribly with severe layer shifting. On the other hand, if they took 30 seconds to research this printer in any capacity, they'd withdraw their offer immediately.

[BlobVanDam]

Did you give any of this info about the quality in the description?

[Chino]

Did you give any of this info about the quality in the description?

Negative. This is my listing.

https://newhaven.craigslist.org/ele/6036977920.html

[BlobVanDam]

In that case I can see how you might feel some guilt.
On one hand, it's the buyer's responsibility to research what they're buying first, especially with 3D printing. You've given them all the information they need to find out more and make an informed decision.
If it's something that you think you're going to feel bad about regardless of it being their fault as an ignorant and stupid buyer, tell him it's kinda shit, and maybe offer a lower price.

But at the end of the day, you've offered it for sale, so you expect to sell it to somebody at some price. Figure out what you're fine with and do it.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

You've essentially indicated that you never used it, thus cannot vouch for its ability to do its job properly.  You have no idea if this thing works or will print worth a shit.  Reviews have been bad, but maybe yours is a fluke.  Since you never used it, you have no way of knowing and should be able to sell with a clear conscience.

[Dave_Manchester]

If there's something niggling away at the back of your conscience, don't do it. Is a small bit of extra cash worth doing something you clearly feel a bit iffy over (for that matter is any sum of cash worth doing something you feel morally iffy over)?

I'd send him a message with all the information you think he should have (i.e the info you would like to have if you were in his shoes as the buyer). Sure it's perhaps his responsibility to look into this for himself, but he hasn't, so help him out.

[gmillerdrake]

If there's something niggling away at the back of your conscience, don't do it.

This. How ticked would you feel if you spent $150 on a Craigslist item then got it home and it didn't work. Sure, they should research a bit or whatever....but there is also a reasonable expectation that the person selling the item isn't 'knowingly' selling you a bunk item. I'm sure that happens a lot...not saying it doesn't, but if you have the ability to stop someone from essentially wasting $150 for no reason I personally would do that in lieu of making a quick $150.

[hefdaddy42]

I don't know.  It's ebay, not an actual retail store, so there is only a 50/50 shot on stuff like this anyway.

You offered it for sale at $150.00, and you have someone willing to buy it at that price.  You don't know that there is anything wrong with this particular one, so sell it.  Boom.

[Stadler]

I lean to Hef's point of view, but I'll caveat it with this:  I sell a reasonable amount on eBay, and I am continually and utterly flabbergasted at the moxie, the GUMPTION, of people.   I sold a MANUAL for a Call of Duty game.  The heading was "Call of Duty MANUAL.   NO GAME NO GAME NO GAME!"   The first line of the listing is "THIS IS NOT THE GAME, IT IS ONLY THE MANUAL!!"  I repeated that as the last line as well, with two "NO RETURNS" in there as well.   

Sold it for $1.25.

Couple days later, case opens, this a-hole is complaining that there was "NO GAME" and that I "ripped him off", and gave the obligatory bad rating.  It took me almost six months and I finally got it corrected. 

I sold a bricked PlayStation.  I told them I reflowed it, I gave pictures, and I said it didn't work.   Week later, same thing. "DOESN'T WORK!"   etc. etc.  I lost that one because eBay protects Buyers zealously. 

I mean, if you're honest, and you give pictures, you might be okay, but if it's EBAY, and it doesn't work (and you don't clearly say that) you may have to take it back at some point. 

If this is Craigslist, and you've been honest (I'm sorry I didn't click the link), and they offer, you're entitled to take it.  I would not do so assuming you will never have any flak from this, that you'll never hear from them again.   

Having said all that, I would take it, again, if you've been honest and feel they have the info they need to make an informed decision.   I'm not at all gunshy about standing up for myself in cases like this.

[cramx3]

It's ebay, not an actual retail store, so there is only a 50/50 shot on stuff like this anyway.

No, this is incorrect.  It's not ebay.  If it was Ebay then Chino could feel the opposite of what Stadler wrote and that his buyer would have ebays protection in case the product did not work.  This is craigslist, I may be wrong, but I don't believe there is any protection from selling a piece of junk.  Having said that, if you feel like you are doing wrong, then don't do it as others have stated.  However, it does not seem like you are doing anything wrong.  Make it clear it's not been used, it was not well reviewed so you do not want to be liable if it is shit, and also that you don't accept returns.  If someone still wants to pay 150 for it, it's on them.

[El Barto]

If I bought garbage I'd be pretty pissed off about it, but only at myself. Never the seller. That said, if I got to the selling point and it was some poor schmuck in a beaten up corolla with a pregnant wife and 3 critters in the back, I'd talk him out of it. If it's some douchebag then problem solved.

However, my question would be why the sudden demand. For seven weeks you hear crickets, and then suddenly you they're beating down the doors. Maybe they know something you don't and you're the one getting rooked here.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

El Barto is on to something here.  I think the only reasonable course of action is to plug it in, use it, confirm that it does indeed suck ass, then sell it for $250.  I'm not sure how I arrived at that from what EB said, but I'm sure he's on to something.

[axeman90210]

Eh, personally I would have a hard time listing it without disclosing that the product has a very high defect rate.

[hefdaddy42]

It's ebay, not an actual retail store, so there is only a 50/50 shot on stuff like this anyway.

No, this is incorrect.  It's not ebay.  If it was Ebay then Chino could feel the opposite of what Stadler wrote and that his buyer would have ebays protection in case the product did not work.  This is craigslist, I may be wrong, but I don't believe there is any protection from selling a piece of junk.  Having said that, if you feel like you are doing wrong, then don't do it as others have stated.  However, it does not seem like you are doing anything wrong.  Make it clear it's not been used, it was not well reviewed so you do not want to be liable if it is shit, and also that you don't accept returns.  If someone still wants to pay 150 for it, it's on them.

I knew it was craigslist.  Not sure why I typed ebay.

[vtgrad]

El Barto is on to something here.  I think the only reasonable course of action is to plug it in, use it, confirm that it does indeed suck ass, then sell it for $250.  I'm not sure how I arrived at that from what EB said, but I'm sure he's on to something.

   ... Caveat Emptor pal.

Edit... re-read your OP and decided that I should read things more carefully before responding to them.

[Chino]

Thanks for the replies.

If I bought garbage I'd be pretty pissed off about it, but only at myself. Never the seller. That said, if I got to the selling point and it was some poor schmuck in a beaten up corolla with a pregnant wife and 3 critters in the back, I'd talk him out of it. If it's some douchebag then problem solved.

However, my question would be why the sudden demand. For seven weeks you hear crickets, and then suddenly you they're beating down the doors. Maybe they know something you don't and you're the one getting rooked here.

This is what I was asking myself all weekend. I'm wondering if someone shared a link to my listing with an online community somewhere or something. I got another two emails this morning asking about it. I'm very active in the Tiko online communities on FB, Reddit, and their forums. I read their Kickstarter's comment section every morning. Nothing has happened in the last week to make this suddenly a sought after item. If anything, Tiko's update last week was less reassuring.

These are not easy to come by, and all the ones on eBay are used. As far as I can tell, I have the only never used version of this printer online. I'm wondering if someone shared a link to my listing with an online community somewhere.

There is a demand for these despite their shittness. Some guys just like to tinker. People have gotten these printers to work wonderfully after three or four inexpensive modifications that require a complete tear down. Someone might want this for a Youtube channel. I've seen people go out of their way to buy additional printers simply for the spare parts. There are several legitimate reasons why someone would want an unused printer.

I'll be honest, I really don't feel a whole lot of remorse for the buyer. If I was selling him something used with a known defect or known to be a lemon, that'd be one thing, but there's nothing dishonest in my listing as far as I'm concerned. This isn't just a new item as in never used, it's a new item on the market. Whoever is buying this had to search for either "tiko" or "3d printer" in order to find my listing, and anyone interested in a Tiko for any reason couldn't have avoided the horror stories by now. As I said earlier (and you can try this yourself for shits), simply Googling "Tiko 3D Printer" is all you'd need to do. If someone in this day and age can't do a quick Google for a piece of hardware, especially someone looking to get into a technology like 3D printing, I can't really feel bad for them. I'm more afraid of getting harassed by some nutjob after the fact than I am about someone not doing their due diligence before buying a piece of technology that's still in the infancy stage. 

[El Barto]

Sounds to me like you just talked yourself out of an ethical dilemma. Glad I could help.

[Stadler]

Based on the last two posts, I'm wondering if $150 isn't GENEROUS.   Marketing! 

[Dr. DTVT]

Listen to Steve Miller

[TAC]

Sell it and be done with it.


Pretty sure I would never get involved in a Kickstarter campaign. It screams "you could get fucked".

[Chino]

Sell it and be done with it.


Pretty sure I would never get involved in a Kickstarter campaign. It screams "you could get fucked".

I've backed 6 in total, and this was the only iffy one.

[Chino]

I made the deal. I went with every intention of hearing the guy out and deciding on what to do/charge on the fly. After introductions, I asked him if he had read anything online about the printer. He replied "I've read some reviews on it and watched some youtube videos, checked out their Kickstarter page". There's no way he had done that without having come across a lot of hate. He followed up with asking me about the printer I purchased (the one I currently use) and I told him the model. He followed up with "Yeah, I saw that one too. I wanted something a little cheaper". By that point, I categorized his online actions as research and I took his $150.

[TAC]

Sounds like the most fun $29 can buy!

[BlobVanDam]

I made the deal. I went with every intention of hearing the guy out and deciding on what to do/charge on the fly. After introductions, I asked him if he had read anything online about the printer. He replied "I've read some reviews on it and watched some youtube videos, checked out their Kickstarter page". There's no way he had done that without having come across a lot of hate. He followed up with asking me about the printer I purchased (the one I currently use) and I told him the model. He followed up with "Yeah, I saw that one too. I wanted something a little cheaper". By that point, I categorized his online actions as research and I took his $150.

Yep, this one's definitely on him, not you.

Re: Kickstarter - I'd never fund any kind of hardware/tech there. The majority of them go the same way. Overdue, unperforming if you even get it, then the company quickly disappears providing no support. Off the top of my head, I could name so many like it. I stick to video games and film projects.

[TAC]

Maybe I don't understand. What would be an example of a Kickstarter campaign for a film project. What do you pay? What do you get?

[axeman90210]

Maybe I don't understand. What would be an example of a Kickstarter campaign for a film project. What do you pay? What do you get?

So typically the low end options would be like "Pay $5 and get thanked in the credits" or "Pay $10 and get a digital copy of the movie when it's done". Higher end donation options can include things like memorabilia (especially if it's a known person trying to finance something that has stuff from prior movies) to official producer credits, set visits, or a walk on role as an extra.

[Stadler]

So not that different than say, Marillion's album pre-funding efforts. 

[cramx3]

While I personally stay away from these types of things, I am definitely seeing it more from bands and that has been something that I've considered doing, but haven't yet.  Such as Delain wanted to fund a concert DVD.  It was pretty cool to read about, but I decided not to and will just purchase whenever it gets released, but that was the first time I seriously considered giving money to such a project.

[Chino]

I've backed a few things from the Smithsonian, Bill Nye's light sail, Megabots, Glowing plants, and the VOyager anniversary project. The Tiko was the first thing I backed with the hopes of receiving something. Everything else I backed was a cool project that I wanted to see someone complete.