All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors

[DoctorAction]

There's no excuse for the poor way the drums have been presented on the MM DT albums. Listen to a recent Clutch or Mastodon or Rush or Spock's Beard album. Drums CAN be recorded to sound alive and exciting in this day and age! 

[bill1971]

I just like Portnoy's playing style much more than Mangini's, simple as that. It all comes down to your personal preference, and what sounds good to you.

Mangini is a talented dude, no question. Arguably better than Portnoy. But again, i like Portnoy's style better.

I think that's the best way to view it. I agree with you 100% even if I disagree with you. I prefer Mangini.

[erwinrafael]

Yeah I couldn't care less if he's playing 16ths with one hand with the Keyboard and 8th notes on the kicks with the bass and accenting the snare along with the guitar.

Doesn't mean diddly squat if it is more technical than musical.

At least to me.

Given that Mangini comes from the Steve Vai / Terry Bozzio school of drum arrangement, his background in marching bands, and his view of the role of drums as if it's an orchestra, that is what is musical to him.

So the chance you will like him is low because you have different views of what is musical.

[Herrick]

I just like Portnoy's playing style much more than Mangini's, simple as that. It all comes down to your personal preference, and what sounds good to you.

Mangini is a talented dude, no question. Arguably better than Portnoy. But again, i like Portnoy's style better.

Agreed. And I think it has a lot to do with how much more involved Portnoy has been in the song writing process. I hope Mangini will have that opportunity on the next album.

[Thoughtspart3]

MM comes across like a pretty humble guy.  He seemed to be very respectful coming in and realized he needed to earn trust with the other guys.  This might have led him to hang back.  It would be great for him to have a more prominent role in the writing process. However, that might not be his thing.  Also, it seems that JP and JR do most of the composing.  It would be great if they left a little more space for the drums to take the lead.  That is probably one of the bigger differences as compared to MP as others have said.  MP was much more of a creative force.

[hefdaddy42]

Im sure he did.

It's just an excuse to have a stupid sized drumkit on stage.

Nothing says look at me more than that.

Yeah, yeah.

OR, he could have been telling the truth when he said he liked to play older songs on the smaller side to approach the songs in a different way.

[Kotowboy]

I don't buy it.

It's not just anti MP either.

It's clearly a cover story.

I'm sure jumping up and down whilst playing is to approach the songs in a new way too.

[hefdaddy42]

I don't buy it.

I'm sure he is very upset by that.

[rumborak]

I have no problem buying into the idea that a different drum setup makes you approach/play a song differently. I have wished for quite a while that DT would "scale down", for exactly that reason.

[Kotowboy]

I don't buy it.

I'm sure he is very upset by that.

k

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

The symmetry of that kit is so satisfying to me. It reminds me of the drum book The New Breed.

[Zook]

I don't buy it.

I'm sure he is very upset by that.

k

[Kotowboy]

Sure - the guy has a history of spinning the facts in his favour, making everything about him and for two years openly bashed DT on social media...

Used to play standing up, shout into the mic over James singing and spit everywhere.

But if he says he has a gigantic kit to play older songs " in a different way " that must be the only reason.

[Scottjf8]

Sure - the guy has a history of spinning the facts in his favour, making everything about him and for two years openly bashed DT on social media...

Used to play standing up, shout into the mic over James singing and spit everywhere.

But if he says he has a gigantic kit to play older songs " in a different way " that must be the only reason.

I still never heard why he is always spitting on stage. Not like he's doing dip

[rumborak]

The symmetry of that kit is so satisfying to me. It reminds me of the drum book The New Breed.

It looks visually very pleasing indeed, but I'm not convinced of its drumming value (from my layman's perspective of course).
I mean, for one, there must be a reason why other drummers haven't adopted a symmetric kit. And if you think about it, there isn't too much value to playing a figure in mirror, other than during the short transitional time from figure A to figure B where now maybe the transition is a bit easier. On top of that, now you have the cognitive load of having to choose which of the two drums you will choose.
I have tried to watch MM for when he switches, but it always seemed to be "because he can", not because it actually helps in the grander scheme.

[Kotowboy]

About the only thing that makes any sense to me is playing higher pitched cymbals over a lower register on guitar so your cymbals don't get lost in the frequency range.

[Bertie_Wooster]

I think they should put Mangini's drums on a platform like Portnoy had his.   It would make his performance more prominent.

[Adami]

He also plays his drums to take advantage of a stereo mix, being able to switch between left and right.

Beyond that, and the changing pitches (which I doubt too many people actually notice without being told about it first), he's probably just doing it to exercise his ambidexterity.

[erwinrafael]

Bill Bruford also had a symmetric drum kit.



The traditional setup of toms going down the scale arranged from left to right makes it hard to do a fast melodic run up or down the scale with only one hit per tom. The arms will cross. With the symmetric setup, Mangini just goes L R L R L R to go up and down the scale. Since he likes going up and down the scale following the keys and guitars note for note, it makes sense for his toms to be set up symmetrically.

His toms were not set-up symmetrically during his early playing years. When he started playing with Steve Vai, it was still a traditional setup.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3-g0BKtPeE

As to the cymbals, the setup is definitely based on the way he sees pitch changes. It's what makes sense to him. The clearest demo I have seen of how he uses the lefty-righty change is this performance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7nGtoYckP4

[Samsara]

As drummers, from my non-musician standpoint, I find both to be extremely good, but vastly different. erwinrafael pointed out the technical differences, which I would be unable to explain, but what he pointed out is what I basically hear.

Bottom line for me is Portnoy's playing had more personality in it, whereas Mangini sounds much more clinical. MM does a great job, but I do miss MP from a drumming perspective.

[Bertielee]

As drummers, from my non-musician standpoint, I find both to be extremely good, but vastly different. erwinrafael pointed out the technical differences, which I would be unable to explain, but what he pointed out is what I basically hear.

Bottom line for me is Portnoy's playing had more personality in it, whereas Mangini sounds much more clinical. MM does a great job, but I do miss MP from a drumming perspective.

Same here. And I don't buy the "if he was more a part of the compositional process, his drum parts would be better", because I've known the guy for almost 25 years now, and I've never heard him play diffrent from how he plays in DT. Skill-wise, he's a fantastic drummer, but as you said, he's very clinical as well and he's always been. He won't turn into a groove machine just because he's more involved. But that's only my two cents after all.

B.Lee

PS : I may sound as if I didn't like MM, but I like him a lot. Simply put, I just tend to prefer what MP brought to the table.

[Kotowboy]

Summary.

MP : better dum parts

MM : better person

[Bertielee]

Summary.

MP : better dum parts

MM : better person

Yup.

[cramx3]

The MM detractors are a vocal minority IMO.  People will ALWAYS draw comparisons, that's life given the situation.  Some people will dislike his style of playing, that's personal opinion and won't be changed unless MM changes (which he likely won't).  The rest of us just enjoy it for what it is, which is a world class drummer, which I believe is the majority.  I think if you took the failure of TA out of the picture, you'd also see DT as a very consistent band during MM tenure.  I know you can't really take TA out of it, but he also was not really involved in the writing and direction of the band to do that (plus he himself was pretty awesome on it).  Even now through playing the classics on this tour, the band is still doing their thing with the biggest differences being MP's fan attachment, that is still lacking in the band since his departure and MM has not and was never asked to make up for that.

[TAC]

The MM detractors are a vocal minority IMO.  People will ALWAYS draw comparisons, that's life given the situation.  Some people will dislike his style of playing, that's personal opinion and won't be changed unless MM changes (which he likely won't).  The rest of us just enjoy it for what it is, which is a world class drummer, which I believe is the majority. I think if you took the failure of TA out of the picture, you'd also see DT as a very consistent band during MM tenure.  I know you can't really take TA out of it, but he also was not really involved in the writing and direction of the band to do that (plus he himself was pretty awesome on it).  Even now through playing the classics on this tour, the band is still doing their thing with the biggest differences being MP's fan attachment, that is still lacking in the band since his departure and MM has not and was never asked to make up for that.

Totally agree with what you say Cram.

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

The symmetry of that kit is so satisfying to me. It reminds me of the drum book The New Breed.

It looks visually very pleasing indeed, but I'm not convinced of its drumming value (from my layman's perspective of course).
I mean, for one, there must be a reason why other drummers haven't adopted a symmetric kit. And if you think about it, there isn't too much value to playing a figure in mirror, other than during the short transitional time from figure A to figure B where now maybe the transition is a bit easier. On top of that, now you have the cognitive load of having to choose which of the two drums you will choose.
I have tried to watch MM for when he switches, but it always seemed to be "because he can", not because it actually helps in the grander scheme.

The reason why I and alot of people are using the traditional right handed setup is because my technic and drumming dosen't revolve around ambidexterity. I aim to be equally strong with both hands but I still lead most things with my right hand so having a right handed kit makes sense to me as with most drummers.

If your equally strong with your left as with your right hand, there's actually no point in theory to setup up your kit in a traditional right handed setup because you actually limit your playing in a sense. If you wan't to lead and play with your left hand having toms and cymbals on the left side is very convininent. I myself have a floortom to my left because that opens my left hand to do certain things that I can't do with my left on my regular floor tom. Playing a Hi-hat that's mounted on the right side next to your Ride for example feels more natural than crossing for me.

MMs toms are also setup so he can play fast double strokes runs across the toms much easier.

[Kotowboy]

I used to have a 10" splash cymbal mounted upside down on my ride on the right side next to my toms.

It felt so good splashing that thing in the heavy part

Plus it also felt good washing the 18" crash ride I had just above it.

Something about having both arms out.

However. I do really enjoy playing hi hat by crossing over. It just feels the best to me.

I also really used to like having a snare drum - usually a piccolo - to the left of my main snare to do off beats etc.

[TheCountOfNYC]

I'm a naturally left handed person and have my drums set up lefty, but I can lead with both hands. My planned drum setup for when I have my own place will implement cymbals on both sides to allow me to lead with both hands but with toms in a traditional lefty setup. For me, when playing on the hi hats, the cross handed technique feels tighter which is better suited for being locked into a groove, while playing on the crashes and ride with open hands feels more loose and flowing, which works better for a more lyrical style of playing.

[hefdaddy42]

The symmetry of that kit is so satisfying to me. It reminds me of the drum book The New Breed.

It looks visually very pleasing indeed, but I'm not convinced of its drumming value (from my layman's perspective of course).
I mean, for one, there must be a reason why other drummers haven't adopted a symmetric kit. And if you think about it, there isn't too much value to playing a figure in mirror, other than during the short transitional time from figure A to figure B where now maybe the transition is a bit easier. On top of that, now you have the cognitive load of having to choose which of the two drums you will choose.
I have tried to watch MM for when he switches, but it always seemed to be "because he can", not because it actually helps in the grander scheme.

The reason why I and alot of people are using the traditional right handed setup is because my technic and drumming dosen't revolve around ambidexterity. I aim to be equally strong with both hands but I still lead most things with my right hand so having a right handed kit makes sense to me as with most drummers.

If your equally strong with your left as with your right hand, there's actually no point in theory to setup up your kit in a traditional right handed setup because you actually limit your playing in a sense. If you wan't to lead and play with your left hand having toms and cymbals on the left side is very convininent. I myself have a floortom to my left because that opens my left hand to do certain things that I can't do with my left on my regular floor tom. Playing a Hi-hat that's mounted on the right side next to your Ride for example feels more natural than crossing for me.

MMs toms are also setup so he can play fast double strokes runs across the toms much easier.

Exactly.  MM is both ambidextrous and plays "open" instead of "closed" or "crossed".  So, for him, his setup makes perfect sense.

The reason other drummers don't have a setup like this is that most of them are neither ambidextrous nor play "open".  That's it.  Full stop.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

MM uses such setup because:

1) He feels more musical
2) He feels more resourceful
3) He can

That's about it. I don't get the debate that sprung out of that. 

[Kotowboy]

1. People think it actually sounds less musical and more technical...

2. Ok he needs it all to play all the DT catalogue and it's not as stupid looking as MP's double kit. I'm glad he ditched bass drums 3 & 4 as nobody can tell me he *needed* them..

... yes i've heard the " well he needed two 22" bass drums and one 24" bass drum for big accents. But miked up and compressed /EQ'd and echoey through a massive venue PA..

.. I hardly think you'd notice any discernible difference.

And if so - what was the FOURTH bass drum for ? His kit looks a lot better with the two bass drums...

3. Now that I agree on 100%.

[Adami]

MP had a 4th kick drum?

[Kotowboy]

No MM did on the Dramatic Events tour.

[Adami]

No MM did on the Dramatic Events tour.

Ohhhh, gotcha.

Yea, I understand his philosophy with that, and the toms being melodic, but you're totally right about a live setting. It all sounds the same.

[bosk1]

1. People think it actually sounds less musical and more technical...

The dichotomy you are trying to draw doesn't make sense.  "Musical" and "technical" are not opposite ends of some spectrum.  They don't even correlate.