Author Topic: Mike Portnoy's "Prog Metal" supergroup: Sons of Apollo  (Read 305517 times)

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Offline ToT-147

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Re: Mike Portnoy's prog metal supergroup: Sons of Apollo
« Reply #945 on: August 07, 2017, 10:12:25 PM »
Well that seems a bit silly. Obviously one factor alone doesn't make anything good.

Just like a strong desire to make great music won't result in anything good.

I think the assumption is that under the right circumstances, along with the proper talent and everything else, competition CAN be a very good thing.


No one is actually arguing that all you need is competition and nothing else to automatically create brilliant music.

As silly as it seems, but several have been giving examples that indicate they think that way.. Or, at least, that they think that competition is the main factor to bring something fresh and better to the table..

Also, the quotes I've made don't implicate that it CAN be a good thing, but that IT IS (maybe always, even regardless the particular cases and the little things that may hamper the production of that music) something good and preferable..

Not saying everyone thinks that way either, just what I think of what I've been reading here.. I guess ambiguity says hi, and that includes me too apparently..
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Re: Mike Portnoy's prog metal supergroup: Sons of Apollo
« Reply #946 on: August 08, 2017, 07:56:04 AM »
My point wasn't that certain situation (like competition) cannot end up being (after hundred of things that actually make the music happen) the initial point to a great album or band.. What I'm trying to say is that these kind of feelings (like competitiveness) doesn't necessarily bring inspiration to the musician, and I think is safe to say that have either nothing to do with the compositional process that really ends up making the music.. I'm neither saying that feelings cannot inspire in some way, because they often do.. What instead I think is that to be motivated because you must "win" a band battle won't be followed by quality music, unless you are a quality musician already..

All those examples don't prove that competition produce better music, but (at best) only that the musicians involved in it were capable of making that better music..

Isn't that up to the people involved?   All people are motivated by different things; sometimes even against their will.   Not music, but Phil Simms is a great example; he hated his coach - Bill Parcells - at the time because Parcells was mercilous in how he pushed Phil.  Now?  Phil readily admits that even though he didn't like it at all, Parcells made him a far better player than he ever would have been without him.   Meanwhile, Lawrence Taylor (on the same team) was allowed to party, and hang with hookers and blow even the night before games, because that's how LT came ready to play.   Trying to "chain him down" didn't work and stifled his playing instinct.  So Parcells let him have his head.     

Again, your examples are no different than the others.. They just describe situations were there was some kind of competition going on, and the final result was better than before.. What you're missing is that that final result is not only possible due to that initial motivation.. First, as you're saying, motivation can come from many different places, but second and third and etc you should have all the elements that you need to do what you're trying to do.. In the music field that would be, besides the motivation, the talent, the patience, the time, the equipment, etc, to actually make the music happen.. You won't need all of them, but at least some of these and many others things (whether physical or psychical) will probably guide you to make good music.. Not competition just for the sake of it.. If a person manages to create something beautiful after getting angry with someone, the magic was all along within that person, and not in that unnamed negative feeling..

I agreed with everything you said up to the last sentence.   There are many examples of that "negative" (your word; it's subjective) feeling being the catalyst for great work that the artist never quite lives up to again.   One could argue that Roger Waters owes his whole legendary status to "negative feelings" that permeate his work.   

Offline bill1971

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Re: Mike Portnoy's prog metal supergroup: Sons of Apollo
« Reply #947 on: August 08, 2017, 09:10:30 AM »
For myself, I'm not interested in "public" competition between DT and MP.  If wanting to one up DT is motivation for MP and DS, and as a result they produce a better album, that's great.  They could do it without bringing DT into it in interviews, etc.  If they can't, and they actually need some kind of public feud to bring out the best in themselves creatively, so be it, but I hope DT doesn't participate in it.  Right now I'm just saying if - basing on what others are saying about competition.  I don't know that MP actually wants to start something.  That 3 part interview he recently did was great and I hope he keeps up with the positivity.  Derek's interview - I don't know if it was really "us vs them" but I think it was purposely over the top (which I think he can be).  The JR/JP cyborg comment was unnecessary.  Claiming that MP invented prog metal - definitely over the top.  Not even MP would say that. 

If they go down the road of trying to compete or draw blabbermouth headlines, etc, I hope DT just continues to do what they do and that they disregard it.

I don't think DT thinks of it as a competition.  They are an established band for almost 30 years, they have nothing to prove. Sons of Apollo are a group of individuals.  With their age, there is no way they will ever reach DT's longevity. Two of the member's claim to fame is that they USED to be in the successful band they are competing with. To add to that DT does not want them anymore, so maybe DS and MP share a bond and feel slighted.

Anyhow, should make for some nice forum discussions. :)

Offline ToT-147

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Re: Mike Portnoy's prog metal supergroup: Sons of Apollo
« Reply #948 on: August 08, 2017, 10:54:18 AM »
There are many examples of that "negative" (your word; it's subjective) feeling being the catalyst for great work that the artist never quite lives up to again.   One could argue that Roger Waters owes his whole legendary status to "negative feelings" that permeate his work.

Exactly that's the part which I disagree with.. I'd never think he owes it to a feeling, whether be negative or positive.. he owes it to his talent first and foremost... Only then, yeah, circumstances and reactions to them can be helpful; but if you don't have the ears and hands to translate it to music, those circumstances and reactions are useless to the cause.. As obvious as it may sound, to not give up in making art you must be an artist first, and being capable of manage precisely those kind of situations.. Is not that what art is about in the end?.. Translate internal senses and thoughts (well, knowledge too) into a piece of work?..

So, I disagree that competition (or whatever else that can be the "catalyst for great work") is the main factor to be a better musician or artist.. But there's another thing though that I find weird about what you're all saying, and it took me this long to realize what's that.. Now I see it.. Is the redundancy of your argument.. Art is [among other not mutually exclusive definitions] a way to express feelings and emotions, so is obvious that to be an artist, first you'd need to have those two.. But that's like saying that you'd need arms and fingers or to be alive in order to make music..


I don't think DT thinks of it as a competition.  They are an established band for almost 30 years, they have nothing to prove. Sons of Apollo are a group of individuals.  With their age, there is no way they will ever reach DT's longevity. Two of the member's claim to fame is that they USED to be in the successful band they are competing with. To add to that DT does not want them anymore, so maybe DS and MP share a bond and feel slighted.

Anyhow, should make for some nice forum discussions. :)

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Re: Mike Portnoy's prog metal supergroup: Sons of Apollo
« Reply #949 on: August 08, 2017, 11:11:46 AM »
There are many examples of that "negative" (your word; it's subjective) feeling being the catalyst for great work that the artist never quite lives up to again.   One could argue that Roger Waters owes his whole legendary status to "negative feelings" that permeate his work.

Exactly that's the part which I disagree with.. I'd never think he owes it to a feeling, whether be negative or positive.. he owes it to his talent first and foremost... Only then, yeah, circumstances and reactions to them can be helpful; but if you don't have the ears and hands to translate it to music, those circumstances and reactions are useless to the cause.. As obvious as it may sound, to not give up in making art you must be an artist first, and being capable of manage precisely those kind of situations.. Is not that what art is about in the end?.. Translate internal senses and thoughts (well, knowledge too) into a piece of work?..


So why does Taylor Swift or better yet Christina Aguilera and Demi Lovato (both EXCELLENT singers) get dismissed as "vapid pop tarts" and Leonard Cohen or better yet Patti Smith get lauded as legends?   

Look, we can argue this all day and neither one of us is totally right (and it's not provable even if we are).  I believe that talent isn't enough.  I think you need that edge, and for all people it's different.  Waters gets his inspiration writing about dark subjects that touch him, often negatively (you'll never convince me that Wish You Were Here, Animals, The Wall, or The Final Cut were borne of JUST talent and have nothing to owe to his emotional state at the time of writing).   It's not a coincidence that even the band members will say that the emotional complexity around the band and the competitive, jealous nature of the parties was a big part of why Rumours is arguably the best Fleetwood Mac album ever, and arguably one of the best albums by any band ever.   

Quote
So, I disagree that competition (or whatever else that can be the "catalyst for great work") is the main factor to be a better musician or artist.. But there's another thing though that I find weird about what you're all saying, and it took me this long to realize what's that.. Now I see it.. Is the redundancy of your argument.. Art is [among other not mutually exclusive definitions] a way to express feelings and emotions, so is obvious that to be an artist, first you'd need to have those two.. But that's like saying that you'd need arms and fingers or to be alive in order to make music..

I don't follow that.  And by the way, you DON'T need arms and fingers to make music (Jason Becker).  You don't need emotion, either; I doubt the guy writing jingles for commercials, or music under the voiceovers on reality TV are driven by anything purely emotional.   I'm only saying that for SOME PEOPLE, the difference between "good" music and "great" music is sometimes those emotions that we from the outside view as "bad" or "harmful", like "competitiveness". 

Offline ToT-147

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Re: Mike Portnoy's prog metal supergroup: Sons of Apollo
« Reply #950 on: August 08, 2017, 12:01:37 PM »
So why does Taylor Swift or better yet Christina Aguilera and Demi Lovato (both EXCELLENT singers) get dismissed as "vapid pop tarts" and Leonard Cohen or better yet Patti Smith get lauded as legends?   

Look, we can argue this all day and neither one of us is totally right (and it's not provable even if we are).  I believe that talent isn't enough.  I think you need that edge, and for all people it's different.  Waters gets his inspiration writing about dark subjects that touch him, often negatively (you'll never convince me that Wish You Were Here, Animals, The Wall, or The Final Cut were borne of JUST talent and have nothing to owe to his emotional state at the time of writing).   It's not a coincidence that even the band members will say that the emotional complexity around the band and the competitive, jealous nature of the parties was a big part of why Rumours is arguably the best Fleetwood Mac album ever, and arguably one of the best albums by any band ever.   

But I believe too that talent isn't enough.. Otherwise I wouldn't be saying that I think is the most important factor; I would simply say is the only one, but that's obviously not how it is.. As you say, no one can be totally right about this, because is purely subjective.. But just to clarify my posture, I'm not saying emotion is not important, but is far from being a "big part" of the whole process.. All those PF's albums weren't of course made of just talent, but they weren't certainly made of just inspiration or emotion, and they're not even the main elements, because then again, inspiration and emotion we all have them, but talent to make music only some.. I'm sure that band sayings were not to be taken literally, they were just being honest and telling their audience what was the real motivation behind that album..

I don't follow that.  And by the way, you DON'T need arms and fingers to make music (Jason Becker).  You don't need emotion, either; I doubt the guy writing jingles for commercials, or music under the voiceovers on reality TV are driven by anything purely emotional.   I'm only saying that for SOME PEOPLE, the difference between "good" music and "great" music is sometimes those emotions that we from the outside view as "bad" or "harmful", like "competitiveness". 

Ok, you got me there with Becker.. :lol  But about the need for emotion, I wasn't talking about commercials, but real music.. About art, not TV ads.. And about your last sentence, I absolutely agree with it.. What I was saying in that last paragraph is that, by definition, all kind of art has emotions involved in it, at different degrees obviously.. Sometimes the overload of expressed feelings into a work can make it worst (or less good than it is) and sometimes can make it better, a thing that depends too on the judge of every person..
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Offline Adami

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Re: Mike Portnoy's prog metal supergroup: Sons of Apollo
« Reply #951 on: August 08, 2017, 12:11:19 PM »
What a fascinatingly long conversation. Apparently there are multiple factors necessary to make great music and be a hit.


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Re: Mike Portnoy's prog metal supergroup: Sons of Apollo
« Reply #952 on: August 08, 2017, 12:27:56 PM »
Ok, you got me there with Becker.. :lol  But about the need for emotion, I wasn't talking about commercials, but real music.. About art, not TV ads.. And about your last sentence, I absolutely agree with it.. What I was saying in that last paragraph is that, by definition, all kind of art has emotions involved in it, at different degrees obviously.. Sometimes the overload of expressed feelings into a work can make it worst (or less good than it is) and sometimes can make it better, a thing that depends too on the judge of every person..

Whoa, who says that commercial jingles are not "art"?  Why can't they be art?   Does art "REQUIRE" emotion?  That kind of supports my position, that sometimes circumstances make for more poignant emotions.   

For the record, I don't at all believe that "art" is judged "good" or "bad" by "every person".   In my opinion, only the artist can determine if a work is "good" or "bad" (and that by how close he/she came to their vision).  All anyone else can do is say "I like it" or "I do not like it". 

Offline bosk1

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Re: Mike Portnoy's prog metal supergroup: Sons of Apollo
« Reply #953 on: August 08, 2017, 12:40:11 PM »
Um, we're getting way off track here.  Mike Portnoy/Sons of Appollo discussion, please.
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Re: Mike Portnoy's prog metal supergroup: Sons of Apollo
« Reply #954 on: August 08, 2017, 12:51:43 PM »
I wonder when they're going to release the 1st single. That's when we can really start commenting about the direction and sound of the band. Hope it's released sometime this month.
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

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Re: Mike Portnoy's prog metal supergroup: Sons of Apollo
« Reply #955 on: August 08, 2017, 12:53:14 PM »
I wonder when they're going to release the 1st single. That's when we can really start commenting about the direction and sound of the band. Hope it's released sometime this month.

I saw on Facebook that Portnoy was saying something would be out in late October.  If he meant the full album, we should start hearing singles soon. 

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Re: Mike Portnoy's prog metal supergroup: Sons of Apollo
« Reply #956 on: August 08, 2017, 01:30:52 PM »
The more I listen to the samples, the more I like them. I think there's potential here for a masterpiece. Prog metal combined with classic hard rock moxie, on paper that's just what I'm most into these days. I'm pretty sure I'll prefer it to The Astonishing.


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Offline ErHaO

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Re: Mike Portnoy's prog metal supergroup: Sons of Apollo
« Reply #957 on: August 08, 2017, 01:46:36 PM »
Yeah, listened to the samples a couple of times and I am definitely digging it.

Portnoy's interview with Trunk sounds good to me, three epics and a bunch of smaller tracks, with the musical direction somewhere inbetween DT-esque prog metal and Van Halen-esque classic rock. I also searched up some Jeff Scott Soto material and I think he has a good voice for the genre. Not very high and belty (unlike a lot of singers in the genre) and a good sense of "groove" from what I've heard. And given some of the other members can sing too, I hope they will use that now and then (choruses, harmonies).

I also think this should be a pretty fun band to watch live.

Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: Mike Portnoy's prog metal supergroup: Sons of Apollo
« Reply #958 on: August 08, 2017, 02:14:04 PM »
Yeah, listened to the samples a couple of times and I am definitely digging it.

Portnoy's interview with Trunk sounds good to me, three epics and a bunch of smaller tracks, with the musical direction somewhere inbetween DT-esque prog metal and Van Halen-esque classic rock. I also searched up some Jeff Scott Soto material and I think he has a good voice for the genre. Not very high and belty (unlike a lot of singers in the genre) and a good sense of "groove" from what I've heard. And given some of the other members can sing too, I hope they will use that now and then (choruses, harmonies).

I also think this should be a pretty fun band to watch live.

I finally got a chance to listen to their "debut" live performance and was actually kind of surprised that Soto doesn't have a higher range.  He has a great voice but I wasn't too impressed with his performance on Burn.  In fact, the whole band was kind of sloppy which I feel bad for saying because it was obviously thrown together for a tribute but hey, it is what it is.  Bumblefoot has a great voice to so I'm sure he will contribute some to the vocals...at least, I would hope he does. 

I'm curious if Soto wrote all the lyrics or if it was a shared responsibility. 

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Re: Mike Portnoy's prog metal supergroup: Sons of Apollo
« Reply #959 on: August 08, 2017, 02:53:39 PM »
One piece of criticism about the samples would be the sound. It sounds very compressed, which is a sound MP seems to go for a lot.
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Re: Mike Portnoy's prog metal supergroup: Sons of Apollo
« Reply #960 on: August 08, 2017, 03:02:04 PM »
Even Virgil can't resist to poke fun at the name. :lol




Also, Derek changed his FB "describe who you are" to "Son of Apollo." He really seems to be taking this thing seriously.


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Re: Mike Portnoy's prog metal supergroup: Sons of Apollo
« Reply #961 on: August 08, 2017, 03:16:06 PM »
Yeah, listened to the samples a couple of times and I am definitely digging it.

Portnoy's interview with Trunk sounds good to me, three epics and a bunch of smaller tracks, with the musical direction somewhere inbetween DT-esque prog metal and Van Halen-esque classic rock. I also searched up some Jeff Scott Soto material and I think he has a good voice for the genre. Not very high and belty (unlike a lot of singers in the genre) and a good sense of "groove" from what I've heard. And given some of the other members can sing too, I hope they will use that now and then (choruses, harmonies).

I also think this should be a pretty fun band to watch live.

I finally got a chance to listen to their "debut" live performance and was actually kind of surprised that Soto doesn't have a higher range.  He has a great voice but I wasn't too impressed with his performance on Burn.  In fact, the whole band was kind of sloppy which I feel bad for saying because it was obviously thrown together for a tribute but hey, it is what it is.  Bumblefoot has a great voice to so I'm sure he will contribute some to the vocals...at least, I would hope he does. 

I'm curious if Soto wrote all the lyrics or if it was a shared responsibility.

From an interview linked somewhere here, the majority of music was composed by Portnoy/Sherinian/Ron, with Sheehan less involved. Lyrics and melodies by Sherinian/Portnoy/Soto.
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Re: Mike Portnoy's prog metal supergroup: Sons of Apollo
« Reply #962 on: August 08, 2017, 04:25:25 PM »
Even Virgil can't resist to poke fun at the name. :lol




Also, Derek changed his FB "describe who you are" to "Son of Apollo." He really seems to be taking this thing seriously.

The prog version of Chickenfoot.
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

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Re: Mike Portnoy's prog metal supergroup: Sons of Apollo
« Reply #963 on: August 08, 2017, 05:02:13 PM »


I don't think DT thinks of it as a competition.  They are an established band for almost 30 years, they have nothing to prove. Sons of Apollo are a group of individuals.  With their age, there is no way they will ever reach DT's longevity. Two of the member's claim to fame is that they USED to be in the successful band they are competing with. To add to that DT does not want them anymore, so maybe DS and MP share a bond and feel slighted.


Excellent post.  :tup :tup

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Re: Mike Portnoy's prog metal supergroup: Sons of Apollo
« Reply #964 on: August 08, 2017, 05:28:19 PM »
I'm glad Sherinian is taking it seriously. He is the MVP of the project so far for me.
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Re: Mike Portnoy's prog metal supergroup: Sons of Apollo
« Reply #965 on: August 08, 2017, 05:32:34 PM »
I don't think DT thinks of it as a competition.  They are an established band for almost 30 years, they have nothing to prove. Sons of Apollo are a group of individuals.  With their age, there is no way they will ever reach DT's longevity. Two of the member's claim to fame is that they USED to be in the successful band they are competing with. To add to that DT does not want them anymore, so maybe DS and MP share a bond and feel slighted.

I definitely get the vibe that Derek feels slighted, and they want to hit it big with SOA. Fingers crossed. 


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Re: Mike Portnoy's prog metal supergroup: Sons of Apollo
« Reply #966 on: August 08, 2017, 05:44:14 PM »
Whoa, who says that commercial jingles are not "art"?  Why can't they be art?   Does art "REQUIRE" emotion?  That kind of supports my position, that sometimes circumstances make for more poignant emotions.   

For the record, I don't at all believe that "art" is judged "good" or "bad" by "every person".   In my opinion, only the artist can determine if a work is "good" or "bad" (and that by how close he/she came to their vision).  All anyone else can do is say "I like it" or "I do not like it".

Ok, then we think very different.. I'm glad that at least I could explain my posture and glad too that there's some that have read the whole thing only to after complain about it..

Um, we're getting way off track here.  Mike Portnoy/Sons of Appollo discussion, please.

Actually, it didn't seem by the last few posts, but we were initially discussing about a statement someone made of how the MP vs DT thing would inspire them to be better.. And yes, the discussion expanded to more general concepts, but the motive behind them was always these bands.. I don't care for any of the other bands named in the examples neither was the point to care about them..

Not that there's too much to talk about a band that has release nothing yet, but ok, let's go back to that.. ;)
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Re: Mike Portnoy's prog metal supergroup: Sons of Apollo
« Reply #967 on: August 08, 2017, 08:01:05 PM »
Even Virgil can't resist to poke fun at the name. :lol




Also, Derek changed his FB "describe who you are" to "Son of Apollo." He really seems to be taking this thing seriously.
It would very cool if IceFish open to SoA :tup
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Re: Mike Portnoy's prog metal supergroup: Sons of Apollo
« Reply #968 on: August 08, 2017, 08:10:24 PM »
Oh man, a show of IceFish and Sons of Apollo?

YES PLEASE!
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Re: Mike Portnoy's prog metal supergroup: Sons of Apollo
« Reply #969 on: August 08, 2017, 08:18:18 PM »
Oh man, a show of IceFish and Sons of Apollo?

YES PLEASE!

Why not run with it and have the tour called The Food Court Tour.
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Re: Mike Portnoy's prog metal supergroup: Sons of Apollo
« Reply #970 on: August 08, 2017, 08:20:03 PM »
Bad Salad (who I....think do a ton of DT covers) can open!


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Re: Mike Portnoy's prog metal supergroup: Sons of Apollo
« Reply #971 on: August 08, 2017, 08:23:49 PM »
Oh man, a show of IceFish and Sons of Apollo?

YES PLEASE!

That would be EPIC
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Re: Mike Portnoy's prog metal supergroup: Sons of Apollo
« Reply #972 on: August 09, 2017, 02:23:43 PM »
10min instruMENTAL confirmed  :metal

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Re: Mike Portnoy's prog metal supergroup: Sons of Apollo
« Reply #973 on: August 09, 2017, 02:29:24 PM »
10min instruMENTAL confirmed  :metal

Now you got my attention...
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline Kwyjibo

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Re: Mike Portnoy's prog metal supergroup: Sons of Apollo
« Reply #974 on: August 09, 2017, 02:38:56 PM »
10min instruMENTAL confirmed  :metal

Not thrilled by that, there's danger of serious wankery.
Must've been Kwyji sending all the wrong songs.   ;D

Offline Fritzinger

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Re: Mike Portnoy's prog metal supergroup: Sons of Apollo
« Reply #975 on: August 09, 2017, 04:14:26 PM »
10min instruMENTAL confirmed  :metal

Not thrilled by that, there's danger of serious wankery.

I'd love that .. coming from both SOA & DT since there hasn't been serious wankery on The Astonishing.
any rock can be made to roll

Offline RodrigoAltaf

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Re: Mike Portnoy's prog metal supergroup: Sons of Apollo
« Reply #976 on: August 09, 2017, 07:29:45 PM »
10min instruMENTAL confirmed  :metal

Where are you getting these updates from?

Online Schurftkut

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Re: Mike Portnoy's prog metal supergroup: Sons of Apollo
« Reply #977 on: August 09, 2017, 08:43:43 PM »
Mike's comments on FB

Offline Adami

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Re: Mike Portnoy's prog metal supergroup: Sons of Apollo
« Reply #978 on: August 09, 2017, 08:45:22 PM »
I think I may have outgrown wankery for the point of wankery.


If it's cleverly composed, then I'm interested. But technical for the sake of it? Nah. Heard it all.
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Offline pogoowner

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Re: Mike Portnoy's prog metal supergroup: Sons of Apollo
« Reply #979 on: August 09, 2017, 09:43:42 PM »
I think I may have outgrown wankery for the point of wankery.


If it's cleverly composed, then I'm interested. But technical for the sake of it? Nah. Heard it all.
Yeah. Major understatement as far as I'm concerned.