Author Topic: Mike Portnoy's "Prog Metal" supergroup: Sons of Apollo  (Read 305500 times)

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Offline Fritzinger

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Re: Mike Portnoy Progressive Metal Supergroup
« Reply #245 on: March 17, 2017, 10:59:19 AM »
Mike P plays in 9/8 and it sounds like 4/4, and Mike M plays in 9/8 and it sounds like 237/96.

Dude. Absolutely this. You finally made clear to me why I like MPs drumming more than MMs. I could never explain it.
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Offline kaos2900

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Re: Mike Portnoy Progressive Metal Supergroup
« Reply #246 on: March 17, 2017, 11:01:39 AM »
To me that's the same as saying that MP has more groove and MM is more technical (robotic) in their playing.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Mike Portnoy Progressive Metal Supergroup
« Reply #247 on: March 17, 2017, 12:11:44 PM »
I love listening to both drummers.

But my personal drumming style was definitely based, in part, on MP.  And when I listen to MP, no matter what piece he is playing, I am hearing something that I understand and could, with practice, eventually play a reasonable facsimile thereof.

A lot of MM's stuff I can hear, but what he does and what I do are two different things.  He is beyond me in every way.  Most of his drumming with DT I could never, ever come close to doing.
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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Mike Portnoy Progressive Metal Supergroup
« Reply #248 on: March 17, 2017, 04:41:04 PM »
Mike P plays in 9/8 and it sounds like 4/4, and Mike M plays in 9/8 and it sounds like 237/96.

Dude. Absolutely this. You finally made clear to me why I like MPs drumming more than MMs. I could never explain it.

I'm curious what these drum parts are that MM make it sound more difficult than it really is. Specifics, anyone?

The only thing I can think of are the polyrhythms where he's complementing two instruments at the same time. In which case, are we saying we don't want this new element in drumming in DT? That's going backwards and not being progressive at all.

Offline jakepriest

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Re: Mike Portnoy Progressive Metal Supergroup
« Reply #249 on: March 17, 2017, 04:47:42 PM »
A lot of his single-stroke work on cymbals comes to mind. That's not really that playable for most drummers.

Offline CDrice

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Re: Mike Portnoy Progressive Metal Supergroup
« Reply #250 on: March 17, 2017, 05:18:35 PM »
Mike P plays in 9/8 and it sounds like 4/4, and Mike M plays in 9/8 and it sounds like 237/96.
I'm curious what these drum parts are that MM make it sound more difficult than it really is. Specifics, anyone?

I must say that I'm curious about that too. I'm no drummer, but nothing he has done with DT strikes me as being more complex/hard for the sake of it than anything Portnoy has done. Actually, like erwinrafael wrote earlier, I personally feel like Mangini generally sounds more restrained than Portnoy (not that there's anything wrong with with MP's drumming). I mean, after reading and seeing interviews, I know that Mangini do like his 236 over 96 polyrhytm ( :lol), but I really don't feel it when I listen to the band's music.

Anyway, the thing I retain from this is that it's actually interesting (and sometimes perplexing) to see how different people react so differently to the same thing.

Online The Letter M

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Re: Mike Portnoy Progressive Metal Supergroup
« Reply #251 on: March 17, 2017, 06:36:44 PM »
Here's a poor analogy that I thought up of earlier today when thinking about this topic - Portnoy is more of the Arts, while Mangini is more of the Sciences. What I mean by that is that MP's drumming is done for show, it's flashier and more entertaining, there for audio and visual amusement and fun, creating a sound that is engaging and exciting to everyone. MM's drumming is methodical, scientific and well-thought out, very formulaic and strategic, laid out in patterns and mathematically pieced together to sound consistent with the rest of the band's rhythms.

Both have their pros and cons, but I think what we should take away from this whole "debate" is that, those of us who were tired of MP's drumming were more likely to find MM more appealing, whereas those of us who find MM's drumming to be out of reach for understanding were probably fans of MP's more showy and bombastic style of drumming. This assumption is probably way off base, but I figured I'd put it out there to see if anyone agrees.

As a drummer of over 20 years, I've grown to appreciate very complex and technical drummers, people like Thomas Lang and Gavin Harrison, but Mike Mangini takes the technicalities to new levels, and his explanations only solidify that feeling that he's very scientific in his drum-part-building, whereas Portnoy is a "bag of tricks and tools" kind of drummer, who will do what the song needs but won't be afraid to color around the lines, so to speak, and I think that's what a lot of fans like about his drumming.

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Offline PowerSlave

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Re: Mike Portnoy Progressive Metal Supergroup
« Reply #252 on: March 17, 2017, 06:54:45 PM »
Here's a poor analogy that I thought up of earlier today when thinking about this topic - Portnoy is more of the Arts, while Mangini is more of the Sciences. What I mean by that is that MP's drumming is done for show, it's flashier and more entertaining, there for audio and visual amusement and fun, creating a sound that is engaging and exciting to everyone. MM's drumming is methodical, scientific and well-thought out, very formulaic and strategic, laid out in patterns and mathematically pieced together to sound consistent with the rest of the band's rhythms.

Both have their pros and cons, but I think what we should take away from this whole "debate" is that, those of us who were tired of MP's drumming were more likely to find MM more appealing, whereas those of us who find MM's drumming to be out of reach for understanding were probably fans of MP's more showy and bombastic style of drumming. This assumption is probably way off base, but I figured I'd put it out there to see if anyone agrees.

As a drummer of over 20 years, I've grown to appreciate very complex and technical drummers, people like Thomas Lang and Gavin Harrison, but Mike Mangini takes the technicalities to new levels, and his explanations only solidify that feeling that he's very scientific in his drum-part-building, whereas Portnoy is a "bag of tricks and tools" kind of drummer, who will do what the song needs but won't be afraid to color around the lines, so to speak, and I think that's what a lot of fans like about his drumming.

-Marc.

I'm not a drummer, so what I say next is at risk of making myself look like an ass.

MM is Bill Bruford, and MP is Alan White. When I listen to older Yes, I get the feeling that BB is way more technical than AW, but AW feels more accessable  and easier to listen to. Is this a good example, or am I way off base?
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Online Adami

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Re: Mike Portnoy Progressive Metal Supergroup
« Reply #253 on: March 17, 2017, 10:42:55 PM »
How about getting this guy on bass? I was blown away when I saw this, and also maybe my favorite bass tone yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ug5wHQGJxOQ




Also, to tie it in to the other discussion, that's an example of extremely complicated playing with lots of groove. So they're not exclusive.
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Offline arkdtmp

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Re: Mike Portnoy Progressive Metal Supergroup
« Reply #254 on: March 18, 2017, 01:11:14 AM »
I think that's maybe a criticism you can levy against DT overall. MM might be the first DT member who consciously tries to lock in with another instrument. I feel usually each instrument just does its own thing. KM even commented on that in an interview a few years ago.
Not to be anal about this, but there are PLENTY of examples with MP 'locking in' with the other instruments:
1. Constant Motion: https://youtu.be/EjtfpfW-Ogk?t=245 This is perhaps the best example, not just of MP locking in, but of why I think his drumming trumps anyone else's on Earth. There are very few drummers I've heard who can come up with such interesting, creative parts.
2. The Great Debate: https://youtu.be/4z6vpiXQJNA?t=127 Locked in with guitars, bass.
3. The Dance of Eternity: https://youtu.be/PfydR1CQ76k?t=223 Locked in with full band.
4. Stream of Consciousness: https://youtu.be/c52g8k7hFcI?t=184

Offline Fritzinger

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Re: Mike Portnoy Progressive Metal Supergroup
« Reply #255 on: March 18, 2017, 02:38:49 AM »
Here's a poor analogy that I thought up of earlier today when thinking about this topic - Portnoy is more of the Arts, while Mangini is more of the Sciences. What I mean by that is that MP's drumming is done for show, it's flashier and more entertaining, there for audio and visual amusement and fun, creating a sound that is engaging and exciting to everyone. MM's drumming is methodical, scientific and well-thought out, very formulaic and strategic, laid out in patterns and mathematically pieced together to sound consistent with the rest of the band's rhythms.

Both have their pros and cons, but I think what we should take away from this whole "debate" is that, those of us who were tired of MP's drumming were more likely to find MM more appealing, whereas those of us who find MM's drumming to be out of reach for understanding were probably fans of MP's more showy and bombastic style of drumming. This assumption is probably way off base, but I figured I'd put it out there to see if anyone agrees.

As a drummer of over 20 years, I've grown to appreciate very complex and technical drummers, people like Thomas Lang and Gavin Harrison, but Mike Mangini takes the technicalities to new levels, and his explanations only solidify that feeling that he's very scientific in his drum-part-building, whereas Portnoy is a "bag of tricks and tools" kind of drummer, who will do what the song needs but won't be afraid to color around the lines, so to speak, and I think that's what a lot of fans like about his drumming.

-Marc.

I'm not a drummer, so what I say next is at risk of making myself look like an ass.

MM is Bill Bruford, and MP is Alan White. When I listen to older Yes, I get the feeling that BB is way more technical than AW, but AW feels more accessable  and easier to listen to. Is this a good example, or am I way off base?

Cant agree with that but I get how you could feel that way. ;)

I am also not a drummer, so I also might risk making an ass of myself: I always found Bill to be a better groover than Alan. Yes, Bill's playing is more complex and Alan's is more intuitive. But Bill always played very accessible to me, too. It never sounded too complex at first listen. He just played rock music as a jazz drummer would, not unlike Phil Collins in the 70s (of course Phil was influenced by Bill, not the other way round).

Bill's jazzy style fitted perfectly with Yes' music imo. Although Alan also did a really good job on Tales, Relayer, GFTO, Tormato (that's right) and Drama, plus the according live albums - Yes were a POWERHOUSE live in the 70s!

After that he basically became a drum machine.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Mike Portnoy Progressive Metal Supergroup
« Reply #256 on: March 18, 2017, 04:30:44 AM »
What it comes down to me :

i. I like Mangini much more as a person but I liked Portnoy's drumming more.

ii. Portnoy's drumming was more musical to my ears & Mangini's playing is more mathematical.



Also Mangini's kit is definitely more efficient and - for the most part - not just big for the sake of it. Portnoy's double kit was just silly.

Offline ReaperKK

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Re: Mike Portnoy Progressive Metal Supergroup
« Reply #257 on: March 18, 2017, 07:37:48 AM »
I agree to with there Kotow. MP brought an element of life to the band.

Offline TheCountOfNYC

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Re: Mike Portnoy Progressive Metal Supergroup
« Reply #258 on: March 18, 2017, 11:01:12 AM »
I think that's maybe a criticism you can levy against DT overall. MM might be the first DT member who consciously tries to lock in with another instrument. I feel usually each instrument just does its own thing. KM even commented on that in an interview a few years ago.
Not to be anal about this, but there are PLENTY of examples with MP 'locking in' with the other instruments:
1. Constant Motion: https://youtu.be/EjtfpfW-Ogk?t=245 This is perhaps the best example, not just of MP locking in, but of why I think his drumming trumps anyone else's on Earth. There are very few drummers I've heard who can come up with such interesting, creative parts.
2. The Great Debate: https://youtu.be/4z6vpiXQJNA?t=127 Locked in with guitars, bass.
3. The Dance of Eternity: https://youtu.be/PfydR1CQ76k?t=223 Locked in with full band.
4. Stream of Consciousness: https://youtu.be/c52g8k7hFcI?t=184

To me, that section in Constant Motion is the single greatest drum part ever written. The big thing about these parts is that while MP is locked in with the rest of the band, the parts still have their own identity. That to me is the biggest difference between Portnoy and Mangini. MM tries to blend with the other instruments while MP plays to the song but allows his playing to stand out.
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Offline Bertielee

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Re: Mike Portnoy Progressive Metal Supergroup
« Reply #259 on: March 18, 2017, 11:07:26 AM »
I'm in a strange place in DT land as of now :

Before SC, I absolutely loved MP's drumming. But as with all drummers with a bag of tricks, I've grown bored of his drumming. Plus, his personality even before the split had already begun to rub me the wrong way. Neddless to say, what's happened since then has defintely sealed the case for me.

I like MM's personality more than his drumming, because I feel MM is a drummers' drummer. When I listen to him play, I don't feel the same things as when I listened to MP play. And, unfortunately, his personality hasn't made me love his drumming more.

Back to the OP : I would like to see Jorn Lande as a singer for MP's new band.

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Offline rumborak

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Re: Mike Portnoy Progressive Metal Supergroup
« Reply #260 on: March 18, 2017, 03:47:35 PM »
How about getting this guy on bass? I was blown away when I saw this, and also maybe my favorite bass tone yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ug5wHQGJxOQ


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Re: Mike Portnoy Progressive Metal Supergroup
« Reply #261 on: March 18, 2017, 03:50:42 PM »
How about getting this guy on bass? I was blown away when I saw this, and also maybe my favorite bass tone yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ug5wHQGJxOQ


Virgil would have been bored to death in DT.

I think that came through on that audition documentary where he tried to re-write parts of TDOE to make it more interesting for him.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Mike Portnoy Progressive Metal Supergroup
« Reply #262 on: March 18, 2017, 06:10:30 PM »

1. Constant Motion: https://youtu.be/EjtfpfW-Ogk?t=245 This is perhaps the best example, not just of MP locking in, but of why I think his drumming trumps anyone else's on Earth. There are very few drummers I've heard who can come up with such interesting, creative parts.
 

To me, that section in Constant Motion is the single greatest drum part ever written. 

That section is pretty bad ass, and just listening to on its own makes it even more annoying that it is smack dab in the middle of what is otherwise a very mediocre song.  That instrumental section deserved a much better song written around it.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Mike Portnoy Progressive Metal Supergroup
« Reply #263 on: March 18, 2017, 07:05:14 PM »
That instrumental section also deserved a better keyboard solo.

But yeah, that drumming is both delightful to watch, and listen to.
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Offline PROGdrummer

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Re: Mike Portnoy Progressive Metal Supergroup
« Reply #264 on: March 18, 2017, 09:19:26 PM »
I think that's maybe a criticism you can levy against DT overall. MM might be the first DT member who consciously tries to lock in with another instrument. I feel usually each instrument just does its own thing. KM even commented on that in an interview a few years ago.
Not to be anal about this, but there are PLENTY of examples with MP 'locking in' with the other instruments:
1. Constant Motion: https://youtu.be/EjtfpfW-Ogk?t=245 This is perhaps the best example, not just of MP locking in, but of why I think his drumming trumps anyone else's on Earth. There are very few drummers I've heard who can come up with such interesting, creative parts.
2. The Great Debate: https://youtu.be/4z6vpiXQJNA?t=127 Locked in with guitars, bass.
3. The Dance of Eternity: https://youtu.be/PfydR1CQ76k?t=223 Locked in with full band.
4. Stream of Consciousness: https://youtu.be/c52g8k7hFcI?t=184

To me, that section in Constant Motion is the single greatest drum part ever written. The big thing about these parts is that while MP is locked in with the rest of the band, the parts still have their own identity. That to me is the biggest difference between Portnoy and Mangini. MM tries to blend with the other instruments while MP plays to the song but allows his playing to stand out.

THAT drum part was the catalyst for me becoming interested in music as a whole. It was my inspiration for picking up the drumsticks and diving down the rabbit hole of prog and heavy metal. Literally a life-changing musical moment.

Offline axeman90210

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Re: Mike Portnoy Progressive Metal Supergroup
« Reply #265 on: March 19, 2017, 08:00:05 AM »
I've always thought that MP's playing had a certain lyrical quality to it. There's definitely no drummer whose parts make me feel like air drumming along as  frequently as Mike's.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Mike Portnoy Progressive Metal Supergroup
« Reply #266 on: March 19, 2017, 08:17:15 AM »
Yes. Has Mangini ever created any drum fill as air drum worthy as the one going into the TDEN first

verse?

MAYBE his mini solo in Enigma Machine???

Offline MinistroRaven

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Re: Mike Portnoy Progressive Metal Supergroup
« Reply #267 on: March 19, 2017, 08:22:53 AM »
Meanwhile at the MP cave he wrote:

Thank you MOOG...you seem to "get it" 
 
For those of you that STILL don't and for the record: the person that posted that video was NOT supposed to have (and was not an "official" source) and was absolutely reprimanded for his irresponsible actions in doing so...he deleted the post and has apologized profusely for his mistake

So it was NOT one of "us" that leaked/posted that...

Again, (and why I have to explain or justify myself on MY OWN website/Forum is ludicrous), the ONLY "official" information that has/will be posted so far is what I posted on my Social Media (as well as the matching "Del Fuvio" post by somebody else)

Several people here (again, you know who you are...don't make me name names) RAN and SPREAD the "leak" as if it was "official information" which it was NOT....
 
Like it or not, these are my wishes/rules....
This is MY Forum and this is MY band!
 
Respect it or else...


Offline rumborak

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Re: Mike Portnoy Progressive Metal Supergroup
« Reply #268 on: March 19, 2017, 08:35:03 AM »
FFS.
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Offline Bolsters

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Re: Mike Portnoy Progressive Metal Supergroup
« Reply #269 on: March 19, 2017, 08:36:31 AM »
So I guess I officially don't know that Bumblefoot is involved? Okay. :lol

Offline twosuitsluke

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Re: Mike Portnoy Progressive Metal Supergroup
« Reply #270 on: March 19, 2017, 08:40:00 AM »
 :corn :corn :corn

I hope he reacts like this at least every other day until they release an album (or he loses his shit all together and rage quits)

Offline Fritzinger

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Re: Mike Portnoy Progressive Metal Supergroup
« Reply #271 on: March 19, 2017, 08:40:26 AM »
Meanwhile at the MP cave he wrote:

Thank you MOOG...you seem to "get it" 
 
For those of you that STILL don't and for the record: the person that posted that video was NOT supposed to have (and was not an "official" source) and was absolutely reprimanded for his irresponsible actions in doing so...he deleted the post and has apologized profusely for his mistake

So it was NOT one of "us" that leaked/posted that...

Again, (and why I have to explain or justify myself on MY OWN website/Forum is ludicrous), the ONLY "official" information that has/will be posted so far is what I posted on my Social Media (as well as the matching "Del Fuvio" post by somebody else)

Several people here (again, you know who you are...don't make me name names) RAN and SPREAD the "leak" as if it was "official information" which it was NOT....
 
Like it or not, these are my wishes/rules....
This is MY Forum and this is MY band!
 
Respect it or else...

This is getting so ridiculous. He behaves like a kid. This is my band! This is my forum! It's my ice cream and you can't have any!
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Offline Peace and Love

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Re: Mike Portnoy Progressive Metal Supergroup
« Reply #272 on: March 19, 2017, 08:43:39 AM »
Yes. Has Mangini ever created any drum fill as air drum worthy as the one going into the TDEN first

verse?

MAYBE his mini solo in Enigma Machine???

Definitely a couple of the big fills in Illumination Theory are very air drummable!

Offline MirrorMask

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Re: Mike Portnoy Progressive Metal Supergroup
« Reply #273 on: March 19, 2017, 08:46:12 AM »
Meanwhile at the MP cave he wrote:

Several people here (again, you know who you are...don't make me name names) RAN and SPREAD the "leak" as if it was "official information" which it was NOT....

So someone makes a mistake but fans should realize "Hey, this was clearly a video made by someone who was just working in the studio, we should not discuss it and forget about it"?

Really, was it so hard to tell essentially that, but changing the angle to "I know someone posted a video that shouldn't have been posted, please, those of you who got wind of it don't spoil the surprise to anyone else who wasn't even aware of such video"? nobody broke into the studio. Nobody stalked it out at night to see who was coming and going. Nobody hacked a cellphone. Someone in the studio made a mistake in filming the rehearsals, so the cat was out of the bag.  I don't see anything wrong and difficult in coming up with "I know an unofficial video was leaked, please, those of you who know don't spoil the surprise for anyone else and refrain to discuss is further, I know it's not your fault"?
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Mike Portnoy Progressive Metal Supergroup
« Reply #274 on: March 19, 2017, 08:47:27 AM »

This is getting so ridiculous. He behaves like a kid. This is my band! This is my forum! It's my ice cream and you can't have any!

Yes but it's endlessly amusing :)  :corn :corn

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Mike Portnoy Progressive Metal Supergroup
« Reply #275 on: March 19, 2017, 08:58:09 AM »
He really is the gift that keeps on giving. :lol :lol :lol

Offline CDrice

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Re: Mike Portnoy Progressive Metal Supergroup
« Reply #276 on: March 19, 2017, 09:33:49 AM »
Yes. Has Mangini ever created any drum fill as air drum worthy as the one going into the TDEN first

verse?

MAYBE his mini solo in Enigma Machine???

Definitely a couple of the big fills in Illumination Theory are very air drummable!

The drum fill that leads into Live, Die, Kill is probably one of my favorite drum moment in the band's discography. And I might be alone in this, but I find that most of the self-titled album gives me the urge to air drum.

Offline Metro

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Re: Mike Portnoy Progressive Metal Supergroup
« Reply #277 on: March 19, 2017, 09:42:23 AM »
All this talk of MP vs MM made me actually miss MP being in DT.

But then this post comes along and it makes me so glad he's not involved anymore.

Offline Fritzinger

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Re: Mike Portnoy Progressive Metal Supergroup
« Reply #278 on: March 19, 2017, 09:59:56 AM »
Yes. Has Mangini ever created any drum fill as air drum worthy as the one going into the TDEN first

verse?

MAYBE his mini solo in Enigma Machine???

Definitely a couple of the big fills in Illumination Theory are very air drummable!

The drum fill that leads into Live, Die, Kill is probably one of my favorite drum moment in the band's discography. And I might be alone in this, but I find that most of the self-titled album gives me the urge to air drum.

Not with that terrible snare sound it doesn't.
I think Enemy Inside has some of the best MM moments in DT. That cymbal pattern in the main riff is awesome.
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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Mike Portnoy Progressive Metal Supergroup
« Reply #279 on: March 19, 2017, 10:02:56 AM »
Yes. Has Mangini ever created any drum fill as air drum worthy as the one going into the TDEN first

verse?

MAYBE his mini solo in Enigma Machine???

Definitely a couple of the big fills in Illumination Theory are very air drummable!

The drum fill that leads into Live, Die, Kill is probably one of my favorite drum moment in the band's discography. And I might be alone in this, but I find that most of the self-titled album gives me the urge to air drum.

Many of his parts in The Astonishing are air-drummable as long as you don't mind what his other limbs are doing.  :lol

Mangini is not really an air-drumming machine. His genius is best appreciated when you listen to the song as a whole and hear how his drums are enriching what the other members are doing (like his bass giving the oomph to James' "rap" in The Path That Divides). It's really quite different from MP's style, although MP does veer into that "orchestrate-to-complement-the-other-instruments" territory in In the Presence of Enemies Part 1.