Author Topic: F#%k Everything  (Read 3192 times)

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Offline Stadler

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Re: F#%k Everything
« Reply #105 on: February 24, 2017, 12:09:28 PM »
The buck stops here.

Of course it does, but only within reason, and only to an extent.   

Offline jsbru

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Re: F#%k Everything
« Reply #106 on: February 24, 2017, 02:11:31 PM »
HE never filed bankruptcy, his company(ies) did.  To my knowledge, HE didn't stiff contractors, his company(ies) did.   Not a minor difference.   Yes, you could say he provided direction, yes, you can say he set the strategy.   But while you can criticize those strategies, it's not entirely fair to pin them all on HIM, in my opinion.   

You can't blame his companies' failures on him, but he can run on his business experience?
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Offline bosk1

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Re: F#%k Everything
« Reply #107 on: February 24, 2017, 02:17:05 PM »
Two things:
1.  Bankruptcy isn't necessarily a "failure."
2.  Stadler did not say you cannot blame his companies' failures on him.  He is saying you cannot blame them entirely on him.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: F#%k Everything
« Reply #108 on: February 24, 2017, 02:44:36 PM »
HE never filed bankruptcy, his company(ies) did.  To my knowledge, HE didn't stiff contractors, his company(ies) did.   Not a minor difference.   Yes, you could say he provided direction, yes, you can say he set the strategy.   But while you can criticize those strategies, it's not entirely fair to pin them all on HIM, in my opinion.   

You can't blame his companies' failures on him, but he can run on his business experience?

To the extent they're not the same thing, yes.  As Bosk said, I was clear: you can criticize, but you can't put them 100% on him, likewise his successes.  But both lead to "experience".  I know most people - if they're honest - learn as much from their missteps as their successes. 

Offline Cable

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Re: F#%k Everything
« Reply #109 on: February 24, 2017, 09:38:58 PM »
Just looking at this thread from a distance, it has seemingly degraded into attacks on both sides. And therefore going against TAC's OP about finding common ground. *sigh* Slinging mud at both sides won't get either side anywhere, much as what is publicly occurring. The right washes through with a bunch of polarizing changes, only for the left to do so when it's their turn.
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Offline vtgrad

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Re: F#%k Everything
« Reply #110 on: February 27, 2017, 01:35:19 PM »
I like how quickly this thread turned from F***k everything, to I love ya brother.

More please.

... and how quickly the thread was divided again.  It's (this thread) really a microcosm for our country; just more polite as we tend to be thoughtful of other's views here (at least in my experience).

In my time away, I had forgotten how genuinely thoughtful, analytical, and measured most of you are.

I can't remember the last time I was in the CWE.  As someone who now lives in the Manchester/Valley Park area, I don't stray too far from my comfortable surroundings, except for concerts, sporting events, etc.

When y'all want to get real crazy you can come on down to Imperial. I'll take you on a tour and point out all the local Meth houses and Red Neck bars   :lol

Hey man... watch the Redneck slang... I'm from Southwest Virginia, the land of Hillbilly Heroin and coal company gun thugs.  You've offended me... :biggrin:
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Offline El Barto

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Re: F#%k Everything
« Reply #111 on: May 25, 2017, 02:51:43 PM »
I have no idea where this would belong, and it's not worth starting another thread, so FUCK EVERYTHING wins.

As most of us have seen by now a candidate running for Montana's sole seat in the US House grabbed a reporter by the neck, with both hands, and threw him to the ground. This for asking his opinion on the CBO score of the AHCA. According to a FOX news team that witnessed it:

Quote
During that conversation, another man — who we now know is Ben Jacobs of The Guardian — walked into the room with a voice recorder, put it up to Gianforte's face and began asking if he had a response to the newly released Congressional Budget Office report on the American Health Care Act. Gianforte told him he would get to him later. Jacobs persisted with his question. Gianforte told him to talk to his press guy, Shane Scanlon.

At that point, Gianforte grabbed Jacobs by the neck with both hands and slammed him into the ground behind him. Faith, Keith and I watched in disbelief as Gianforte then began punching the reporter. As Gianforte moved on top of Jacobs, he began yelling something to the effect of, "I'm sick and tired of this!"

Jacobs scrambled to his knees and said something about his glasses being broken. He asked Faith, Keith and myself for our names. In shock, we did not answer. Jacobs then said he wanted the police called and went to leave. Gianforte looked at the three of us and repeatedly apologized. At that point, I told him and Scanlon, who was now present, that we needed a moment. The men then left.

To be clear, at no point did any of us who witnessed this assault see Jacobs show any form of physical aggression toward Gianforte, who left the area after giving statements to local sheriff's deputies.

Gianforte's position:
Quote
It's unfortunate that this aggressive behavior from a liberal journalist created this scene at our campaign volunteer BBQ.

Better still, because of early voting Gianforte might actually win.
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Offline XJDenton

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Re: F#%k Everything
« Reply #112 on: May 25, 2017, 04:00:55 PM »
What a bell-end.

Offline Stadler

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Re: F#%k Everything
« Reply #113 on: May 26, 2017, 07:33:22 AM »
I have no idea where this would belong, and it's not worth starting another thread, so FUCK EVERYTHING wins.

As most of us have seen by now a candidate running for Montana's sole seat in the US House grabbed a reporter by the neck, with both hands, and threw him to the ground. This for asking his opinion on the CBO score of the AHCA. According to a FOX news team that witnessed it:

Quote
During that conversation, another man — who we now know is Ben Jacobs of The Guardian — walked into the room with a voice recorder, put it up to Gianforte's face and began asking if he had a response to the newly released Congressional Budget Office report on the American Health Care Act. Gianforte told him he would get to him later. Jacobs persisted with his question. Gianforte told him to talk to his press guy, Shane Scanlon.

At that point, Gianforte grabbed Jacobs by the neck with both hands and slammed him into the ground behind him. Faith, Keith and I watched in disbelief as Gianforte then began punching the reporter. As Gianforte moved on top of Jacobs, he began yelling something to the effect of, "I'm sick and tired of this!"

Jacobs scrambled to his knees and said something about his glasses being broken. He asked Faith, Keith and myself for our names. In shock, we did not answer. Jacobs then said he wanted the police called and went to leave. Gianforte looked at the three of us and repeatedly apologized. At that point, I told him and Scanlon, who was now present, that we needed a moment. The men then left.

To be clear, at no point did any of us who witnessed this assault see Jacobs show any form of physical aggression toward Gianforte, who left the area after giving statements to local sheriff's deputies.

Gianforte's position:
Quote
It's unfortunate that this aggressive behavior from a liberal journalist created this scene at our campaign volunteer BBQ.

Better still, because of early voting Gianforte might actually win.

I believe that he did, in fact, win.   

Offline XJDenton

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Re: F#%k Everything
« Reply #114 on: May 26, 2017, 09:05:50 AM »
He did, because apparently assaulting the press is no longer a deal-breaker.

Offline El Barto

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Re: F#%k Everything
« Reply #115 on: May 26, 2017, 09:14:38 AM »
I'm not honestly sure it needs to be. People lose their temper, and I can understand how pushing a guy to the ground can happen. Apologize. Replace his glasses and cover the medical bills. Send him an Amazon gift card and a nice note. I'm alright with it. However, crawling on top of somebody and pummeling them while shouting "I am sick and tired of this!" isn't so much a matter of assault as it is a matter of being completely out of your fucking skull. Apparently being totally unhinged isn't a dealbreaker, either. That's a problem.
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Offline antigoon

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Re: F#%k Everything
« Reply #116 on: May 26, 2017, 09:28:15 AM »
It was almost more offensive to me that his campaign blatantly lied about what happened despite knowing their version would be easily disproven by multiple eyewitness accounts.

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Re: F#%k Everything
« Reply #117 on: May 26, 2017, 09:41:08 AM »
I have no idea where this would belong, and it's not worth starting another thread, so FUCK EVERYTHING wins.
 

 :lol

I feel like I read something every day now that tempts me to bump this thread.


I thought I heard that a lot of votes were already cast before the incident.

It was almost more offensive to me that his campaign blatantly lied about what happened despite knowing their version would be easily disproven by multiple eyewitness accounts.

Totally.



would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: F#%k Everything
« Reply #118 on: May 28, 2017, 08:24:41 AM »
He did, because apparently assaulting the press is no longer a deal-breaker.

Trump's awfulness aside, that is a good thing.  The press has too much power at it is, and anything, or anyone, that can minimize their influence has to be a good thing.  Don't get me wrong, the freedom of the press is a great thing, and they are a necessary evil, but they abuse their power way too much. 

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Re: F#%k Everything
« Reply #119 on: May 28, 2017, 08:30:43 AM »
He did, because apparently assaulting the press is no longer a deal-breaker.

Trump's awfulness aside, that is a good thing.  The press has too much power at it is, and anything, or anyone, that can minimize their influence has to be a good thing.  Don't get me wrong, the freedom of the press is a great thing, and they are a necessary evil, but they abuse their power way too much.

He was referring to a guy physically assaulting a reporter, that's not okay. 

Offline KevShmev

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Re: F#%k Everything
« Reply #120 on: May 28, 2017, 08:33:36 AM »
He did, because apparently assaulting the press is no longer a deal-breaker.

Trump's awfulness aside, that is a good thing.  The press has too much power at it is, and anything, or anyone, that can minimize their influence has to be a good thing.  Don't get me wrong, the freedom of the press is a great thing, and they are a necessary evil, but they abuse their power way too much.

He was referring to a guy physically assaulting a reporter, that's not okay.

That, I agree with, but I was speaking more in the literal sense of assaulting the press verbally.  A physical assault, whether it be of a member of the press or an innocent bystander at a protest, is wrong.

Offline Adami

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Re: F#%k Everything
« Reply #121 on: May 28, 2017, 08:49:10 AM »
You consider the press to be an evil?
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Offline RuRoRul

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Re: F#%k Everything
« Reply #122 on: May 28, 2017, 08:51:10 AM »
Executing journalists would probably minimize the influence of the press even more than simply assaulting them.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: F#%k Everything
« Reply #123 on: May 28, 2017, 08:59:58 AM »
You consider the press to be an evil?

A "necessary evil," yes (which is not the same thing as being inherently evil). Like anything else, if you give someone or something too power, they will abuse it for all of the wrong reasons.  That fits the press to a 't.'

I mean, think of the most popular newspapers and news stations in this country.  All of them have a major slant one way or the other.  The job of the news media is to deliver the news to the masses.  All of them do it in a way that distorts the facts and is intended to manipulate thinking to fit whatever narrative they want to push.  The NY Times does it.  Fox News does it.  CNN does it.  They all do it.

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Re: F#%k Everything
« Reply #124 on: May 28, 2017, 09:08:37 AM »
that's because it's impossble to do it otherwise.   There was ever some golden age where news was completely objective and only delivered facts.   That's not to say there isn't good reporting,  those two things are not mutually exclusive

Offline Adami

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Re: F#%k Everything
« Reply #125 on: May 28, 2017, 09:30:10 AM »
You consider the press to be an evil?

A "necessary evil," yes (which is not the same thing as being inherently evil). Like anything else, if you give someone or something too power, they will abuse it for all of the wrong reasons.  That fits the press to a 't.'

I mean, think of the most popular newspapers and news stations in this country.  All of them have a major slant one way or the other.  The job of the news media is to deliver the news to the masses.  All of them do it in a way that distorts the facts and is intended to manipulate thinking to fit whatever narrative they want to push.  The NY Times does it.  Fox News does it.  CNN does it.  They all do it.

Then isn't everything a necessary evil?
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Offline El Barto

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Re: F#%k Everything
« Reply #126 on: May 28, 2017, 11:46:56 AM »
You consider the press to be an evil?

A "necessary evil," yes (which is not the same thing as being inherently evil). Like anything else, if you give someone or something too power, they will abuse it for all of the wrong reasons.  That fits the press to a 't.'

I mean, think of the most popular newspapers and news stations in this country.  All of them have a major slant one way or the other.  The job of the news media is to deliver the news to the masses.  All of them do it in a way that distorts the facts and is intended to manipulate thinking to fit whatever narrative they want to push.  The NY Times does it.  Fox News does it.  CNN does it.  They all do it.
The job of the press is also to investigate. I don't think many people consider the Washington Post evil for the way they hounded and picked on that poor man Nixon. Woodstein started with nothing more than an oddity and followed it for over a year. Whereas Grabby waves his questionable dealings around like a flag shouting fuck you to his naysayers.

Morever, as I've said before, never, ever piss off the press. The only thing a president can do that's worse is to piss off the FBI.  :lol



edit: Moreover, it's not about assailing the press in this case:
However, crawling on top of somebody and pummeling them while shouting "I am sick and tired of this!" isn't so much a matter of assault as it is a matter of being completely out of your fucking skull. Apparently being totally unhinged isn't a dealbreaker, either. That's a problem.
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Re: F#%k Everything
« Reply #127 on: May 28, 2017, 07:33:45 PM »
Producing truths about government deception is what reporters should and need to do. 

Spinning your political leanings is where I've despised the press of late.  That goes for both sides.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: F#%k Everything
« Reply #128 on: May 30, 2017, 09:21:19 AM »
Producing truths about government deception is what reporters should and need to do. 

Spinning your political leanings is where I've despised the press of late.  That goes for both sides.

King has gotten it right, I believe.   

"Journalists" are an important, crucial part of our government and society in general. It's not called "the fourth estate" for nothing.  The ability to investigate and promulgate information is CRUCIAL for an advanced society.    Having said that, the VAST majority of what passes as "journalism" is anything but. 

True journalism doesn't including starting articles like this: "How does a hearing aid bill turn into a fight about gun rights?".  That's not "reporting the facts".  That's editorializing.    http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2017/05/28/elizabeth-warren-bill-hearing-aid-draws-opposition-from-gun-rights-conservative-groups/WMAAAo9Z8zAK7AzZnrRUII/story.html?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark

I was reading the recent issue of Rolling Stone Magazine, and (this being the 50th anniversary of the magazine) they were pontificating on their "importance" and their role in politics over the years, and Jann was bloviating on how effective they were in terms of their "journalism", and how they "got to the root of the people" and "showed the person behind the politician"...  then proceeded to relate that a) they never even bothered to interview Nixon, Reagan, H.W. Bush, W. Bush, or (as of yet), Trump.  Only Democrats.  To him, "journalism" isn't a bipartisan look at politics, allowing the reader to draw their own conclusions from the facts presented, but rather an opportunity to ram the conclusions down the readers throats through selective sharing and partisan advocacy.   

Offline El Barto

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Re: F#%k Everything
« Reply #129 on: May 30, 2017, 09:28:29 AM »
"Journalists" are an important, crucial part of our government and society in general. It's not called "the fourth estate" for nothing.  The ability to investigate and promulgate information is CRUCIAL for an advanced society.    Having said that, the VAST majority of what passes as "journalism" is anything but. 
Yet the flip-side of that is that most of the criticism (not from you but from "people") is because the direction investigations take conflicts where their own sensibilities.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: F#%k Everything
« Reply #130 on: May 30, 2017, 09:37:29 AM »
"Journalists" are an important, crucial part of our government and society in general. It's not called "the fourth estate" for nothing.  The ability to investigate and promulgate information is CRUCIAL for an advanced society.    Having said that, the VAST majority of what passes as "journalism" is anything but. 
Yet the flip-side of that is that most of the criticism (not from you but from "people") is because the direction investigations take conflicts where their own sensibilities.

Isn't it iterative?   No one even KNEW Bob Woodward's inclination, and he didn't let it get in the way of where the facts went.  Sean Hannity can call himself a "journalist" all he wants, but he's not, and every time he prefaces a comment with "As a conservative..." he renders that comment useless as real journalism or investigation.   I would even argue that Anderson Cooper - a journalist I like and respect deeply - did himself a disservice by talking about his sexuality.  Not that it matters, but because it DOESN'T matter.   When identity politics take up such a big part of our political diet, to align with any one advocacy group potentially undermines the objectivity of the analysis.  I'm not saying - even implying, even a little bit - that "gay people can't be objective", I'm saying that even the whiff of affiliation makes the objective investigation harder to do and harder to sell. 

Offline El Barto

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Re: F#%k Everything
« Reply #131 on: May 30, 2017, 09:43:42 AM »
"Journalists" are an important, crucial part of our government and society in general. It's not called "the fourth estate" for nothing.  The ability to investigate and promulgate information is CRUCIAL for an advanced society.    Having said that, the VAST majority of what passes as "journalism" is anything but. 
Yet the flip-side of that is that most of the criticism (not from you but from "people") is because the direction investigations take conflicts where their own sensibilities.

Isn't it iterative?   No one even KNEW Bob Woodward's inclination, and he didn't let it get in the way of where the facts went.  Sean Hannity can call himself a "journalist" all he wants, but he's not, and every time he prefaces a comment with "As a conservative..." he renders that comment useless as real journalism or investigation.   I would even argue that Anderson Cooper - a journalist I like and respect deeply - did himself a disservice by talking about his sexuality.  Not that it matters, but because it DOESN'T matter.   When identity politics take up such a big part of our political diet, to align with any one advocacy group potentially undermines the objectivity of the analysis.  I'm not saying - even implying, even a little bit - that "gay people can't be objective", I'm saying that even the whiff of affiliation makes the objective investigation harder to do and harder to sell.
At what point did the Washington Post announce itself to be a liberal paper? Moreover, even if it did come out and announce that fact, shouldn't its investigations be judged on merit rather than the source? My problem is with people who complain that the NYT is picking on Trump. Setting aside the fact that every president should be picked on, following a meaningful investigation shouldn't be seen as a bad thing because you don't personally like it.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: F#%k Everything
« Reply #132 on: May 30, 2017, 09:54:46 AM »
"Journalists" are an important, crucial part of our government and society in general. It's not called "the fourth estate" for nothing.  The ability to investigate and promulgate information is CRUCIAL for an advanced society.    Having said that, the VAST majority of what passes as "journalism" is anything but. 
Yet the flip-side of that is that most of the criticism (not from you but from "people") is because the direction investigations take conflicts where their own sensibilities.

Isn't it iterative?   No one even KNEW Bob Woodward's inclination, and he didn't let it get in the way of where the facts went.  Sean Hannity can call himself a "journalist" all he wants, but he's not, and every time he prefaces a comment with "As a conservative..." he renders that comment useless as real journalism or investigation.   I would even argue that Anderson Cooper - a journalist I like and respect deeply - did himself a disservice by talking about his sexuality.  Not that it matters, but because it DOESN'T matter.   When identity politics take up such a big part of our political diet, to align with any one advocacy group potentially undermines the objectivity of the analysis.  I'm not saying - even implying, even a little bit - that "gay people can't be objective", I'm saying that even the whiff of affiliation makes the objective investigation harder to do and harder to sell.
At what point did the Washington Post announce itself to be a liberal paper? Moreover, even if it did come out and announce that fact, shouldn't its investigations be judged on merit rather than the source? My problem is with people who complain that the NYT is picking on Trump. Setting aside the fact that every president should be picked on, following a meaningful investigation shouldn't be seen as a bad thing because you don't personally like it.

Well, those are two different issues.   I agree - to an extent - that every President should be picked on, and I think that a meaningful investigation should be seen as a good thing even if you don't personally like it.   But in exchange for that, an investigation shouldn't be deemed "meaningful" just because I disagree with the person I'm investigating.  Put a different way, there's a fine line between 'investigative journalism' and 'partisan hack job'.    I think when the entity itself makes it too well known which way they lean, it calls into question that line.   

Offline El Barto

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Re: F#%k Everything
« Reply #133 on: May 30, 2017, 10:06:37 AM »
"Journalists" are an important, crucial part of our government and society in general. It's not called "the fourth estate" for nothing.  The ability to investigate and promulgate information is CRUCIAL for an advanced society.    Having said that, the VAST majority of what passes as "journalism" is anything but. 
Yet the flip-side of that is that most of the criticism (not from you but from "people") is because the direction investigations take conflicts where their own sensibilities.

Isn't it iterative?   No one even KNEW Bob Woodward's inclination, and he didn't let it get in the way of where the facts went.  Sean Hannity can call himself a "journalist" all he wants, but he's not, and every time he prefaces a comment with "As a conservative..." he renders that comment useless as real journalism or investigation.   I would even argue that Anderson Cooper - a journalist I like and respect deeply - did himself a disservice by talking about his sexuality.  Not that it matters, but because it DOESN'T matter.   When identity politics take up such a big part of our political diet, to align with any one advocacy group potentially undermines the objectivity of the analysis.  I'm not saying - even implying, even a little bit - that "gay people can't be objective", I'm saying that even the whiff of affiliation makes the objective investigation harder to do and harder to sell.
At what point did the Washington Post announce itself to be a liberal paper? Moreover, even if it did come out and announce that fact, shouldn't its investigations be judged on merit rather than the source? My problem is with people who complain that the NYT is picking on Trump. Setting aside the fact that every president should be picked on, following a meaningful investigation shouldn't be seen as a bad thing because you don't personally like it.

Well, those are two different issues.   I agree - to an extent - that every President should be picked on, and I think that a meaningful investigation should be seen as a good thing even if you don't personally like it.   But in exchange for that, an investigation shouldn't be deemed "meaningful" just because I disagree with the person I'm investigating.  Put a different way, there's a fine line between 'investigative journalism' and 'partisan hack job'.    I think when the entity itself makes it too well known which way they lean, it calls into question that line.
Sounds about right. I'd call this our common ground.

Out of curiosity, do you see the NYT or WAPO engaging in these hack jobs?
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Offline Stadler

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Re: F#%k Everything
« Reply #134 on: May 30, 2017, 10:31:23 AM »
I think the Times has.   My jury is out on the Post.  I will say this, though, that I liked it better when papers didn't feel the need to endorse candidates.   

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Re: F#%k Everything
« Reply #135 on: May 30, 2017, 10:35:22 AM »
At what point did the Washington Post announce itself to be a liberal paper? Moreover, even if it did come out and announce that fact, shouldn't its investigations be judged on merit rather than the source? My problem is with people who complain that the NYT is picking on Trump. Setting aside the fact that every president should be picked on, following a meaningful investigation shouldn't be seen as a bad thing because you don't personally like it.

Probably when they cheered on the negative news on Trump they were publishing http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/05/16/bias-alert-washington-post-breaks-into-applause-after-dropping-trump-story.html

Offline antigoon

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Re: F#%k Everything
« Reply #136 on: May 30, 2017, 10:39:22 AM »
Counterpoint: maybe there was cheering because they broke a readership/engagement record?

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Re: F#%k Everything
« Reply #137 on: May 30, 2017, 10:45:18 AM »
Counterpoint: maybe there was cheering because they broke a readership/engagement record?

Further fueling that dumping on Trump sells (and that was not the first time they've been accused of cheering things anti-republican).  I do think Trump brings a lot on himself so he is is own fault for negative news on him for the most part.  But during the election, ratings rose.  Ratings rose even more for the left, look at Rachel Maddow now.  Look at late night comedy, it's becoming almost exclusively related to Trump bashing.  It sells.  To me, that is more so the problem with news and their political leanings.  They would rather a shit piece of journalism that brings on viewers than do something more legit and newsworthy.  Things like the handshakes and whatnot actually make news in this country (and not just humor shows) because it sells, not because it's actually news.  At least that's how I feel about the media in this country.

Offline antigoon

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Re: F#%k Everything
« Reply #138 on: May 30, 2017, 11:09:01 AM »
You make fair points (though that Post story was a legitimate piece of news), but on the same token I think the way Trump was covered during the campaign contributed to his being elected in the first place.

Offline Stadler

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Re: F#%k Everything
« Reply #139 on: May 30, 2017, 11:11:44 AM »
You make fair points (though that Post story was a legitimate piece of news), but on the same token I think the way Trump was covered during the campaign contributed to his being elected in the first place.

Honest question:  what does that tell you?