Author Topic: The Fight For 15  (Read 3018 times)

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Offline El Barto

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #70 on: February 22, 2017, 03:53:35 PM »
I can see the logic in Podaar's dad's line of thought, but it's dependent upon perspective, and I wouldn't consider it applicable from the managerial standpoint. I want my employees to do the most for the least. I want my business to do the least for the most for my customers.
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Offline Podaar

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #71 on: February 22, 2017, 04:05:10 PM »
To be sure, EB. He wasn't talking about the rank and file, just those who managed them.  :biggrin:

I wish you could talk with him too, Stadler. He was an interesting, funny and charismatic guy. I really miss him.

Offline TAC

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #72 on: February 22, 2017, 04:24:09 PM »
Podaar, by laziness, did he mean efficient?
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Podaar

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #73 on: February 22, 2017, 04:30:50 PM »
Perhaps, in a way, TAC. He meant someone who would rather be sailing on his boat, or golfing at the Country Club than be at the office peering over everyone's shoulders.

We're kinda taking this thread too far off course though, maybe I should start some kind of "in memoriam" thread elsewhere to talk about our dearly departed folks.

Offline TAC

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #74 on: February 22, 2017, 04:40:07 PM »
Perhaps, in a way, TAC. He meant someone who would rather be sailing on his boat, or golfing at the Country Club than be at the office peering over everyone's shoulders.

So one who believes in empowerment?


Management is my career as well, so I find the discussion fascinating.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

Offline Podaar

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #75 on: February 22, 2017, 04:48:07 PM »
Perhaps, in a way, TAC. He meant someone who would rather be sailing on his boat, or golfing at the Country Club than be at the office peering over everyone's shoulders.

So one who believes in empowerment?


Management is my career as well, so I find the discussion fascinating.

Oh, man, Dad would have laughed out loud at that. He was old school, buddy. He would have found it way too politically correct to substitute good ol' fashioned laziness with "empowerment".

 :lol

Here's the man himself. Dead these 15 years.


Offline TAC

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #76 on: February 22, 2017, 04:51:04 PM »
Very nice, Gregg.

(2 g's at the end, right?)
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

Offline Podaar

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #77 on: February 22, 2017, 04:55:09 PM »
That's correct, Timm.

 :biggrin:

Offline chknptpie

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #78 on: February 22, 2017, 04:56:30 PM »
I have a hard time reading the statement "learn a trade or go to college". If you're only making $8/hr, how can you afford to do either?

Offline TAC

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #79 on: February 22, 2017, 04:56:49 PM »
That's correct, Timm.

 :biggrin:

Did you read my story about the salesman and my name? I told it last week in a thread.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

Offline Podaar

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #80 on: February 22, 2017, 04:58:07 PM »
I have a hard time reading the statement "learn a trade or go to college". If you're only making $8/hr, how can you afford to do either?

According to Romney, you get a loan from your parents. Simple.

Offline cramx3

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #81 on: February 22, 2017, 05:03:35 PM »
I have a hard time reading the statement "learn a trade or go to college". If you're only making $8/hr, how can you afford to do either?

I don't know many people who could afford college coming out of high school, but most of my class mates went to college.  Some had rich parents to pay for it all, but most took out student loans.  Most are still paying those loans, but are also making a lot more money than if they didn't and in the end will be making a significantly more than those who didn't.  It's no guarantee, but nothing in this world is. 

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #82 on: February 22, 2017, 05:15:46 PM »
I'd love to get skills, so I could get a better job that I enjoy and that pays better. But I'm too busy trying to keep a roof over my head to be able to afford to get skills. Schooling ain't cheap.

That's why you take out a student loan and invest in yourself.  But you are right though, you will reach a point where that doesn't make sense either and you are stuck.  It could take 30 years to pay off a student loan.  Is it worth it if say you are 35 and need to go to school for 4 years and expect to hit that work force at 40 and pay off that loan?  Not sure, depends.  But it's not like the option isn't out there.

I'm 41 and lucky to be in a job I have no schooling for, through a combination of experience. It could be worse, but I want to have a skill of some sort. I know home builders, electricians, auto repair people. They have marketable skills. I know how to use Excel, play guitar, drink inhuman amounts of alcohol, and make a mess in the kitchen over a few hours. Nothing useful. I hate that.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #83 on: February 22, 2017, 07:03:18 PM »


My brother is the warehouse manger of our warehouse. He has (3) Truck Drivers under him, one of which is a 27 year old Father of 2 who decided that he didn't like working as a mechanic any longer because of the hours and it was tough work. He was making $25 as a mechanic. He was hired as a truck driver making $12.80 an hour and my brother says ALL he does is whine and cry about ONLY making $12.80 an hour.

First off, his salary per hour wasn't a secret....he knew what the starting wage was so why take the job in the first place if you're going to whine about it? Second, if you NEED the job but disagree with the amount, then get in the position and bust your ass to get raises/promotions. But no, he tells my brother he will work harder AFTER he gets more money.  :lol   

What a dope.

To share a personal story here AND brag a little :P, when I changed jobs 2 1/2 years ago, I took a big step backwards money-wise, but I did it in the hopes that it would pay dividends in the future. I got the new job, was tight with what I spent for a bit, and then eight months later, I was promoted and got a nice raise.  And I continued to work hard, got another nice raise this past fall, and then right before the turn of the new year, was given another promotion ($$).  So see, it does pay to work hard sometimes.  It's sad that many cannot grasp the concept of working hard, and while I get that there are a lot of bosses who will work you hard and never give you the opportunity or money that you might deserve, to me, it's more a matter of character, taking pride in doing a good job, etc. 

And to address the OP here, it's laughable to think that minimum wage should be $15 an hour.  Yep, let's do that, and then watch minimum wage jobs plummet and prices at those places skyrocket.  It doesn't take a genius to figure out what the unintended consequences would be here.

Offline Stadler

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #84 on: February 23, 2017, 06:45:21 AM »
I have a hard time reading the statement "learn a trade or go to college". If you're only making $8/hr, how can you afford to do either?

According to Romney, you get a loan from your parents. Simple.

No, there are ways. I'm going through this now with my daughter.   There are loans. Grants.  Scholarships.  Some companies have training programs where they'll pay for stuff like this (in between marriages I met a girl on Match who was basically a single mom, two kids, one with needs, and working as an admin for the finance department of a I don't even know what they did firm, and taking accounting classes from the local community college at night.   We didn't click as more than friends, but now she's married (to a guy in said finance department) and graduated as an accountant and works as such (I don't know if she had to switch companies or not). 

I find some of Bernie's rhetoric about colleges to be a little like "All Republicans want to outlaw gays".   Yeah, there is probably one or even a handful of people who vote Republican that want to do that, but not all.   Not ALL colleges/universities will sink you into crippling debt.   I know for me (northern Connecticut) there are several schools under $10K a year within an hour and a half of me (for the record, that's $40, TOTAL for your education, and many of us would gladly pay that for a car, so...).   Plus trade schools.  Plus community colleges.   There are options, it just takes a little detective work to figure it out.   

Offline chknptpie

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #85 on: February 23, 2017, 12:42:13 PM »
I don't know many people who could afford college coming out of high school, but most of my class mates went to college.  Some had rich parents to pay for it all, but most took out student loans.  Most are still paying those loans, but are also making a lot more money than if they didn't and in the end will be making a significantly more than those who didn't.  It's no guarantee, but nothing in this world is.

No, there are ways. I'm going through this now with my daughter.   There are loans. Grants.  Scholarships.  Some companies have training programs where they'll pay for stuff like this (in between marriages I met a girl on Match who was basically a single mom, two kids, one with needs, and working as an admin for the finance department of a I don't even know what they did firm, and taking accounting classes from the local community college at night.   We didn't click as more than friends, but now she's married (to a guy in said finance department) and graduated as an accountant and works as such (I don't know if she had to switch companies or not). 

I find some of Bernie's rhetoric about colleges to be a little like "All Republicans want to outlaw gays".   Yeah, there is probably one or even a handful of people who vote Republican that want to do that, but not all.   Not ALL colleges/universities will sink you into crippling debt.   I know for me (northern Connecticut) there are several schools under $10K a year within an hour and a half of me (for the record, that's $40, TOTAL for your education, and many of us would gladly pay that for a car, so...).   Plus trade schools.  Plus community colleges.   There are options, it just takes a little detective work to figure it out.   

Why? Why does someone need to go into debt to be able to have a minimal standard of living? I find it more acceptable to go into debt for a house than an education - at least the house "should" give some return on investment.
Average student loan: $30,100
http://ticas.org/posd/map-state-data

What about someone who didn't graduate high school? Shouldn't they be able to live at some sort of minimum standard?

Offline cramx3

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #86 on: February 23, 2017, 01:01:23 PM »
Why should anyone be guaranteed any standard of living?  I'm not sure I understand the base of your question.  Is it just because we are humans that we are entitled to a standard of living?  I don't believe that so I think we are going to differ fundamentally here.  High school is free, well paid by taxes, but free for the child going there.  If they choose to drop out, that is their life choice.  Why should anyone else have to pay for that so they could meet a standard of living?

Offline El Barto

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #87 on: February 23, 2017, 01:11:54 PM »
Why should anyone be guaranteed any standard of living?  I'm not sure I understand the base of your question.  Is it just because we are humans that we are entitled to a standard of living?  I don't believe that so I think we are going to differ fundamentally here.  High school is free, well paid by taxes, but free for the child going there.  If they choose to drop out, that is their life choice.  Why should anyone else have to pay for that so they could meet a standard of living?
Because we have the ways and means to do so. We're not cavemen, fighting over the last scraps of lizard meat. We have more than enough resources for us all to be guaranteed a roof, an education, three squares and treatment should we become sick. I think the better question is why shouldn't we? Sadly, I think the answer will come down to selfishness.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #88 on: February 23, 2017, 01:26:36 PM »
Why should anyone be guaranteed any standard of living?  I'm not sure I understand the base of your question.  Is it just because we are humans that we are entitled to a standard of living?  I don't believe that so I think we are going to differ fundamentally here.  High school is free, well paid by taxes, but free for the child going there.  If they choose to drop out, that is their life choice.  Why should anyone else have to pay for that so they could meet a standard of living?
Because we have the ways and means to do so. We're not cavemen, fighting over the last scraps of lizard meat. We have more than enough resources for us all to be guaranteed a roof, an education, three squares and treatment should we become sick. I think the better question is why shouldn't we? Sadly, I think the answer will come down to selfishness.

Can you explain how we have the means to do so, I don't see it?  And even if we have the means to, that's not a reason to do it. I work hard every day. I took out a student loan to get educated to get a job that will allow me to live a standard that I want, why should that go to someone else who chooses to do the opposite of me?  That's not at all selfish to me imo.

Offline XeRocks81

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #89 on: February 23, 2017, 01:32:39 PM »
Why should anyone be guaranteed any standard of living?  I'm not sure I understand the base of your question.  Is it just because we are humans that we are entitled to a standard of living?  I don't believe that so I think we are going to differ fundamentally here.  High school is free, well paid by taxes, but free for the child going there.  If they choose to drop out, that is their life choice.  Why should anyone else have to pay for that so they could meet a standard of living?
Because we have the ways and means to do so. We're not cavemen, fighting over the last scraps of lizard meat. We have more than enough resources for us all to be guaranteed a roof, an education, three squares and treatment should we become sick. I think the better question is why shouldn't we? Sadly, I think the answer will come down to selfishness.

Can you explain how we have the means to do so, I don't see it?  And even if we have the means to, that's not a reason to do it. I work hard every day. I took out a student loan to get educated to get a job that will allow me to live a standard that I want, why should that go to someone else who chooses to do the opposite of me?  That's not at all selfish to me imo.

In theory(because that's all this is),  it wouldn't take anything away from you

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #90 on: February 23, 2017, 01:33:37 PM »
Can you explain how we have the means to do so, I don't see it?  And even if we have the means to, that's not a reason to do it. I work hard every day. I took out a student loan to get educated to get a job that will allow me to live a standard that I want, why should that go to someone else who chooses to do the opposite of me?  That's not at all selfish to me imo.

It isn't always the other person just being lazy in contrast to you (royal you) working hard for your way of life.  Not everybody has the same opportunities, the same quality of upbringing that presents options for a better life, etc.  Sure, lots of people have overcome shitty childhoods to make something of themselves, but those are exceptional instances.  When you present it as "Someone didn't bust their ass the same way I did", it comes across a lot differently, and I don't think that's really how you wanted it to sound.


Offline cramx3

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #91 on: February 23, 2017, 01:45:59 PM »
Can you explain how we have the means to do so, I don't see it?  And even if we have the means to, that's not a reason to do it. I work hard every day. I took out a student loan to get educated to get a job that will allow me to live a standard that I want, why should that go to someone else who chooses to do the opposite of me?  That's not at all selfish to me imo.

It isn't always the other person just being lazy in contrast to you (royal you) working hard for your way of life.  Not everybody has the same opportunities, the same quality of upbringing that presents options for a better life, etc.  Sure, lots of people have overcome shitty childhoods to make something of themselves, but those are exceptional instances.  When you present it as "Someone didn't bust their ass the same way I did", it comes across a lot differently, and I don't think that's really how you wanted it to sound.

No, its not always that situation.  I didn't think we were talking about people without opportunities, I just assumed general public, like the person who chose to drop out of high school in chkptpies example not the person who couldn't attend high school because of something out of their control.  I am stemming my example from things we can control.  I do believe we all should have the opportunity to be successful.  I firmly believe, for the most part (of course there are exceptions) that is the case now.

Why should anyone be guaranteed any standard of living?  I'm not sure I understand the base of your question.  Is it just because we are humans that we are entitled to a standard of living?  I don't believe that so I think we are going to differ fundamentally here.  High school is free, well paid by taxes, but free for the child going there.  If they choose to drop out, that is their life choice.  Why should anyone else have to pay for that so they could meet a standard of living?
Because we have the ways and means to do so. We're not cavemen, fighting over the last scraps of lizard meat. We have more than enough resources for us all to be guaranteed a roof, an education, three squares and treatment should we become sick. I think the better question is why shouldn't we? Sadly, I think the answer will come down to selfishness.

Can you explain how we have the means to do so, I don't see it?  And even if we have the means to, that's not a reason to do it. I work hard every day. I took out a student loan to get educated to get a job that will allow me to live a standard that I want, why should that go to someone else who chooses to do the opposite of me?  That's not at all selfish to me imo.

In theory(because that's all this is),  it wouldn't take anything away from you

Then where does it come from?  I am honestly wondering that, when EB says we have the means so, it's an honest question of how because I don't see it without some other consequences.

Offline El Barto

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #92 on: February 23, 2017, 01:58:05 PM »
Why should anyone be guaranteed any standard of living?  I'm not sure I understand the base of your question.  Is it just because we are humans that we are entitled to a standard of living?  I don't believe that so I think we are going to differ fundamentally here.  High school is free, well paid by taxes, but free for the child going there.  If they choose to drop out, that is their life choice.  Why should anyone else have to pay for that so they could meet a standard of living?
Because we have the ways and means to do so. We're not cavemen, fighting over the last scraps of lizard meat. We have more than enough resources for us all to be guaranteed a roof, an education, three squares and treatment should we become sick. I think the better question is why shouldn't we? Sadly, I think the answer will come down to selfishness.

Can you explain how we have the means to do so, I don't see it?  And even if we have the means to, that's not a reason to do it. I work hard every day. I took out a student loan to get educated to get a job that will allow me to live a standard that I want, why should that go to someone else who chooses to do the opposite of me?  That's not at all selfish to me imo.

In theory(because that's all this is),  it wouldn't take anything away from you
I really wasn't trying to drag this back into the Utopian realm from yesterday, but in that sense this is how I also see it. Cram would get the same benefit as the next guy, room, food and healthcare, and if he wanted to do better he certainly could. In fact, if all of his efforts were on top of the basic necessities, think of how much better of he'd be.

Again, this is all in the theoretical. I brought it up because the question was asked why anybody should be guaranteed a standard of living. And in this case we're talking about working for a minimum standard. I don't think that in what we like to call the greatest nation on Earth we should be approaching it from that perspective. As far as I'm concerned it's greed that shapes the discussion. Bitterness over the fact that some don't work as hard as others, and a desire to do better than somebody else.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #93 on: February 23, 2017, 02:04:56 PM »
...stuff about... some sort of minimum standard.

We should probably decide what this "minimum standard" is. EB describes "a roof, an education, three squares and treatment should we become sick." Sounds reasonable. Where is the line? Does a roof mean a house in a quiet neighborhood with a room for each kiddo? What's the education ceiling? high school? Post-grad? What is the minimal level of "work" you have to perform to receive these necessities? Not answering anything here, but want others' thoughts.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #94 on: February 23, 2017, 02:09:27 PM »
EB, but you still didn't answer the question of how we have the means to give everyone a minimum standard (not trying to hound you on this, just that was kind of my point on debating this).  Is it by taxing the 1%?  Defunding the military (just thinking about our big expenses)?  Some other tax?  A minimum standard certainly sounds nice, I just wonder how it's feasible because everything comes at a cost, just wondering who pays that cost for everyone in this theoretical situation?  I also was intending this to be theoretically about current America, not about the utopian discussion from yesterday, but I can see how it relates.

Offline Stadler

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #95 on: February 23, 2017, 02:15:53 PM »
I don't know many people who could afford college coming out of high school, but most of my class mates went to college.  Some had rich parents to pay for it all, but most took out student loans.  Most are still paying those loans, but are also making a lot more money than if they didn't and in the end will be making a significantly more than those who didn't.  It's no guarantee, but nothing in this world is.

No, there are ways. I'm going through this now with my daughter.   There are loans. Grants.  Scholarships.  Some companies have training programs where they'll pay for stuff like this (in between marriages I met a girl on Match who was basically a single mom, two kids, one with needs, and working as an admin for the finance department of a I don't even know what they did firm, and taking accounting classes from the local community college at night.   We didn't click as more than friends, but now she's married (to a guy in said finance department) and graduated as an accountant and works as such (I don't know if she had to switch companies or not). 

I find some of Bernie's rhetoric about colleges to be a little like "All Republicans want to outlaw gays".   Yeah, there is probably one or even a handful of people who vote Republican that want to do that, but not all.   Not ALL colleges/universities will sink you into crippling debt.   I know for me (northern Connecticut) there are several schools under $10K a year within an hour and a half of me (for the record, that's $40, TOTAL for your education, and many of us would gladly pay that for a car, so...).   Plus trade schools.  Plus community colleges.   There are options, it just takes a little detective work to figure it out.   

Why? Why does someone need to go into debt to be able to have a minimal standard of living? I find it more acceptable to go into debt for a house than an education - at least the house "should" give some return on investment.
Average student loan: $30,100
http://ticas.org/posd/map-state-data

What about someone who didn't graduate high school? Shouldn't they be able to live at some sort of minimum standard?

Everyone should be able; I think that goes without saying.  But there's a difference between being "able" and having a right to it, and even if we say there's a right, what does that mean? $15 an hour in Connecticut is very different than $15 in, say, north Florida.  Why does the Burger King teller "deserve" to live in the environment they choose? My great grandparents moved halfway across the planet, with no home, no job, no nothing, to get a better life.   Why is it untenable to move from Detroit to Tuscon? 

Oh, and I have absolutely reaped more of a "return" from my law degree than I have from any house I've ever owned.  Some of it is intangible, in the sense that I'm simply qualified for more jobs than without it, but even for jobs that I'm not technically a "lawyer", I get a premium for having the background.   

Offline El Barto

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #96 on: February 23, 2017, 02:19:48 PM »
EB, but you still didn't answer the question of how we have the means to give everyone a minimum standard (not trying to hound you on this, just that was kind of my point on debating this).  Is it by taxing the 1%?  Defunding the military (just thinking about our big expenses)?  Some other tax?  A minimum standard certainly sounds nice, I just wonder how it's feasible because everything comes at a cost, just wondering who pays that cost for everyone in this theoretical situation?  I also was intending this to be theoretically about current America, not about the utopian discussion from yesterday, but I can see how it relates.
I wasn't trying to approach this from the financial perspective. It's our current economical model that complicates it, in fact. What I said was that we have the resources to provide for everybody. Food. Building materials. Labor. Our attachment to money ties these assets up. And no, I'm not advocating for socialism here, even if the end result looks the same. And I'll also point out that this started on whether or not it was reasonable to pay a burger flipper enough for him to support himself. This isn't a freeloader, but rather a hard worker doing a shit job and, most importantly, providing a service most people use. Should he live in a mansion? No. Should he be able to sleep in a bed with a roof over his head? Yes.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #97 on: February 23, 2017, 02:39:22 PM »
EB, but you still didn't answer the question of how we have the means to give everyone a minimum standard (not trying to hound you on this, just that was kind of my point on debating this).  Is it by taxing the 1%?  Defunding the military (just thinking about our big expenses)?  Some other tax?  A minimum standard certainly sounds nice, I just wonder how it's feasible because everything comes at a cost, just wondering who pays that cost for everyone in this theoretical situation?  I also was intending this to be theoretically about current America, not about the utopian discussion from yesterday, but I can see how it relates.
I wasn't trying to approach this from the financial perspective. It's our current economical model that complicates it, in fact. What I said was that we have the resources to provide for everybody. Food. Building materials. Labor. Our attachment to money ties these assets up. And no, I'm not advocating for socialism here, even if the end result looks the same. And I'll also point out that this started on whether or not it was reasonable to pay a burger flipper enough for him to support himself. This isn't a freeloader, but rather a hard worker doing a shit job and, most importantly, providing a service most people use. Should he live in a mansion? No. Should he be able to sleep in a bed with a roof over his head? Yes.

Nice way to lead back to the original discussion.  Yea I was going off topic a bit, but it was interesting and I always appreciate your posts.  And so we are back to what I feel like is the root of the minimum wage discussion is, should minimum wage be a minimum living wage?  I personally am not so sure.  I believe that was the original intent although it hasn't been that case for awhile now.  Maybe if you work 40 hours a week it should be aka you are a full time employee living off that job.  But that's not everyone and should we force the company to pay the high school kid working weekends the same as the guy doing it for a living?  I'm not sure.  My gut says no, but I can see the rationale for a person working a full time job to be able to live off that and it does make sense.

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #98 on: February 23, 2017, 02:45:13 PM »
One potential issue with that is that these places could then just make sure no one works 40 hours a week. Assign every employee to 20 hours or whatever a week and then they can keep paying them dick. The person isn't choosing to work less, and is then being punished for it as well.
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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #99 on: February 23, 2017, 02:47:27 PM »
EB, but you still didn't answer the question of how we have the means to give everyone a minimum standard (not trying to hound you on this, just that was kind of my point on debating this).  Is it by taxing the 1%?  Defunding the military (just thinking about our big expenses)?  Some other tax?  A minimum standard certainly sounds nice, I just wonder how it's feasible because everything comes at a cost, just wondering who pays that cost for everyone in this theoretical situation?  I also was intending this to be theoretically about current America, not about the utopian discussion from yesterday, but I can see how it relates.
I wasn't trying to approach this from the financial perspective. It's our current economical model that complicates it, in fact. What I said was that we have the resources to provide for everybody. Food. Building materials. Labor. Our attachment to money ties these assets up. And no, I'm not advocating for socialism here, even if the end result looks the same. And I'll also point out that this started on whether or not it was reasonable to pay a burger flipper enough for him to support himself. This isn't a freeloader, but rather a hard worker doing a shit job and, most importantly, providing a service most people use. Should he live in a mansion? No. Should he be able to sleep in a bed with a roof over his head? Yes.


I'm with you 100,000% unequivocally.  I think it's just that I don't agree that "minimum wage" is the way to do it (and there are studies that support me on this). 

Offline antigoon

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #100 on: February 23, 2017, 02:49:29 PM »
Somewhat OT but I think we might need to reckon pretty soon with the concept of universal basic income.

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #101 on: February 23, 2017, 02:54:21 PM »
One potential issue with that is that these places could then just make sure no one works 40 hours a week. Assign every employee to 20 hours or whatever a week and then they can keep paying them dick. The person isn't choosing to work less, and is then being punished for it as well.

Yup, I was thinking the same thing, but that's kind of the point too.  You implement one thing that seems to help people and then something else changes which hurts people.  It's hard to find that balance.

Somewhat OT but I think we might need to reckon pretty soon with the concept of universal basic income.

Yea I think that's kind of where EB was going.  We aren't there yet, but it's something worth discussing imo.

Offline pogoowner

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #102 on: February 23, 2017, 03:00:44 PM »
Somewhat OT but I think we might need to reckon pretty soon with the concept of universal basic income.
I think it's a topic that's going to come up more and more as time goes on. I've not read enough on the topic to have a fully formed opinion, but I'm curious if anyone here has any thoughts on it.

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #103 on: February 23, 2017, 03:27:32 PM »
Well, that's basically where I've been going for the last two days, but I think it's incompatible with the American mindset. We've settled on this notion of the American dream, where everybody has the same opportunity. If it works out that's great. If not, tough shit. I just don't see us making the move from opportunity to right, and that's going to be a big problem as we go forward.
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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #104 on: February 23, 2017, 03:34:44 PM »
Well, that's basically where I've been going for the last two days, but I think it's incompatible with the American mindset. We've settled on this notion of the American dream, where everybody has the same opportunity. If it works out that's great. If not, tough shit. I just don't see us making the move from opportunity to right, and that's going to be a big problem as we go forward.

It is as of now, but I wouldn't be so sure for the future.  I don't think we've reached the point yet where that is our reality, but as the older generations fade away and the new ones come to take charge while robots start to take over their jobs, I don't think it'll be as big of a problem to overcome because if that is indeed our future, I believe it will become more clear that it's the way to go.