Author Topic: The Fight For 15  (Read 1814 times)

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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2017, 10:11:06 AM »
I, once again, failed at trying to inject some humor. I keep forgetting that only I think I'm funny.

Don't feel bad.  Any time I've tried to inject a little levity and humor into a political thread that wasn't the political humor thread, it is resoundingly ignored, because serious business.

Offline Tick

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2017, 10:35:04 AM »
To me, this topic is more of a Fogey issue 
:lol

This made me laugh.

I know, right?  :lol

I get my coffee from a local roaster who's main business is just in roasting and selling beans. Still, he does have a counter where they make drinks and sell donuts. There is a small sitting area with about six tables that every morning are crowded with gray-beards and blue-hairs sitting around bitching about how spoiled and entitled the baby-boomers (my generation are). It's laughable. Just like this thread.
This thread is laughable? Ok...

So are a bunch of people marching for any reason conceivable. I have worked low paying jobs and that's on me.
I think making demands by marching is laughable. You want a better job aquire the skills to get one.

And Chino, that doesn't mean a college degree. It means learn a valuable skill that warrants better pay.
Be a plummer, an electrician, a data processor, fix copiers, be a tailor, a phlebotomist,a dental assistant,  a roofer, a taper, sheetrocker, a tile guy, a mason, etc.....

These are skills that don't take a 4 year degree, just some degree of effort to acquire the skill.
Or be a fast food employee and realize you will need to work more than one job to survive.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2017, 10:39:41 AM »
I can't help but think a robot could make a much better burger than some kid working the line. I'd welcome the change.

And I still can't help but chuckle at the people who insist a minimum wage is a bad thing but bitch and moan about illegal aliens doing work for cheaper than Americans will.

Lastly, as I've said all along, we need to be working towards an economy that isn't based on a population of wage slaves. We're not their yet, but we never will be if we can't shake the notion that hard work is vital to prosperity.

You had me until the end.   If not "hard work" being vital to prosperity, what then?   "Mere existence"?   "A pulse over 60 bpm"?  I think  what we have to shake is the entitlement mentality.  "Entitlement" meaning "what the other guy has".   My kid comes home and she's pouting.  I bought her a 2003 Saab 9-3 that is in pretty good shape, but high miles and the dash "computer" doesn't always work right.   She's moaning that someone else in her class got an Infinity from her father.   Okay.  Thankfully Mom stepped in and asked for me, "what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?"   I can totally get it if we're talking "wage slave" in order "to eat and wear shoes".  But where is the line?   

If someone works 50, 60 hours a week after having gone through to get three degrees in order to make enough to send my kids to the best high school they can go to, then to the college of their choice... what's the incentive if we change the system and basically guarantee someone a level of income and make college free?    That income gets put back in the system; no not "trickle down economics", I mean from a utilitarian perspective.  You can argue with me if you want, but from a pure dollars and cents perspective, that higher income does more for the economy than someone on minimum wage.  It just does.   These things don't happen overnight, they don't happen by protesting to be paid more, and they don't happen because someone is worrying about what the other guy made.  Being incentivized is good for the economy.   Yes, I understand that keeping people off welfare is a benefit to the economy, but we're spending a LOT of money to effect that benefit, and I don't think we're accurately doing an accounting of the overall systemic costs. 

"$15 an hour" seems like a simple thing - "what can it harm?" - but Connecticut current minimum wage is roughly $10.  That's roughly a difference of $5 per hour, or $11,000 per year PER WORKER.  There's roughly 3 million people earning minimum wage, so the system has to absorb $33 BILLION in additional costs (in just wages; that doesn't count employer taxes, benefits, etc.), but how much of that is going back in the system?   At that income level, it is likely that the tax impacts are negligible.  But do you know how many hamburgers need to be sold to make up that difference? 

I agree with Chino; I don't think purely "physical" endeavors are the only way to measure worth or value, but the mental cost of having a company rely on your producing x deliverable on time, or making sure that vein of ore is propped safely is measurably different than making sure the fries are perfectly salted, or that cheeseburger happy meal has the boy toy or the girl toy.   

Offline Podaar

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2017, 10:42:49 AM »

This thread is laughable? Ok...

So are a bunch of people marching for any reason conceivable. I have worked low paying jobs and that's on me.
I think making demands by marching is laughable. You want a better job aquire the skills to get one.

And Chino, that doesn't mean a college degree. It means learn a valuable skill that warrants better pay.
Be a plummer, an electrician, a data processor, fix copiers, be a tailor, a phlebotomist,a dental assistant,  a roofer, a taper, sheetrocker, a tile guy, a mason, etc.....

These are skills that don't take a 4 year degree, just some degree of effort to acquire the skill.
Or be a fast food employee and realize you will need to work more than one job to survive.

Again, sorry about the laughable comment.

What about my larger point that $15.00 per hour is equivalent to $4.77 in 1980 when we were young. According to this article, the living wage calculation for Connecticut in 2014 was $19.08 per hour. If that's still true, $15.00 per hour isn't even sufficient to provide basic necessities.

Offline Stadler

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2017, 10:55:10 AM »


Lastly, as I've said all along, we need to be working towards an economy that isn't based on a population of wage slaves. We're not their yet, but we never will be if we can't shake the notion that hard work is vital to prosperity.

I confused. What? Not sure if there's a double negative I'm missing. What are you saying?
I'm saying that this guy is America's biggest asshole.  We should be trying to approach things from that standpoint of having to work less rather than fetishizing hard work.

Well, how is that done. I'm still lost. Not being a wise ass, I'm trying to understand what you are saying and how we get there.
Like I said, we're not there yet, but we should be preparing for and working towards a post-scarcity world. I don't think there are any practical changes we can make now, we still need to eat and have access to goods and services, but we can stop glorifying hard work and start to approach it as a necessary evil for the time being. I don't see this country as capable of making that change, however. It's simply incompatible with our breed of capitalism.

The bottom line is that I'm not smart enough to figure out how to move forward. I am smart enough to recognize that our current attitude "we have to bring coal mining jobs back to make America great again!" isn't the answer. Whether or not a McDonalds worker should make a living wage runs parallel to this problem. And quite frankly, reflects pretty poorly on us that we have to debate the matter.

el Barto, I'm sorry bossman, but I'm still struggling to see where you fall on this.  The Caddy commercial; it was exaggerated, but the guy wasn't really "wrong" (and, by the way, neither was the woman in Ford's "rebuttal").  That's not the same thing as "coal jobs" or "fast food minimum wage".    I wouldn't waste eight seconds bringing coal jobs back to America.  I WOULD spend that money teaching coal miners how to [fill in your preferred skill set of the future; I think it is still form of HVAC/communications].  Or subsidizing their relocation to places where there are jobs.

Here's something that occurred to me one morning at 3:00 am, while I was on the shitter (I don't tweet, so this is what you get).   My great grandfather was an apprentice machinist.  I had another relative (great uncle maybe? Something?) was a world class horse trainer.  They had no jobs in their little corner of the world (Poland, the current day Czech Republic) and they packed everything in a bag, jumped on a ship and sailed for a month and a half to this weird place called "New York City", with a big lake in the middle, a shit ton of Irishmen, and a whole lot of horse shit in the streets.   Now you have some dude in West Virginia, or Detroit, who's been out of work for two years because "Mexicans will work cheaper!" that wants the gov'mint to ensure their jobs/wages?  WTF?   There are parts of the country that have job shortages.   This is your "great immigration".  At least you don't have to leave the country.   The days of working the "same job for the same company selling the same product from the same factory in the same town for ever-increasing wages" is long long gone.     

You don't have to dedicate your life to your work, but I don't think it's too much to ask to put in SOME effort. 

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2017, 11:03:39 AM »

el Barto, I'm sorry bossman, but I'm still struggling to see where you fall on this. 
Thank you, I'm still confused as well, but I didn't want to come off as either a wise ass or a dumb ass. :lol
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2017, 11:12:53 AM »


Lastly, as I've said all along, we need to be working towards an economy that isn't based on a population of wage slaves. We're not their yet, but we never will be if we can't shake the notion that hard work is vital to prosperity.

I confused. What? Not sure if there's a double negative I'm missing. What are you saying?
I'm saying that this guy is America's biggest asshole.  We should be trying to approach things from that standpoint of having to work less rather than fetishizing hard work.

Well, how is that done. I'm still lost. Not being a wise ass, I'm trying to understand what you are saying and how we get there.
Like I said, we're not there yet, but we should be preparing for and working towards a post-scarcity world. I don't think there are any practical changes we can make now, we still need to eat and have access to goods and services, but we can stop glorifying hard work and start to approach it as a necessary evil for the time being. I don't see this country as capable of making that change, however. It's simply incompatible with our breed of capitalism.

The bottom line is that I'm not smart enough to figure out how to move forward. I am smart enough to recognize that our current attitude "we have to bring coal mining jobs back to make America great again!" isn't the answer. Whether or not a McDonalds worker should make a living wage runs parallel to this problem. And quite frankly, reflects pretty poorly on us that we have to debate the matter.

el Barto, I'm sorry bossman, but I'm still struggling to see where you fall on this.  The Caddy commercial; it was exaggerated, but the guy wasn't really "wrong" (and, by the way, neither was the woman in Ford's "rebuttal").  That's not the same thing as "coal jobs" or "fast food minimum wage".    I wouldn't waste eight seconds bringing coal jobs back to America.  I WOULD spend that money teaching coal miners how to [fill in your preferred skill set of the future; I think it is still form of HVAC/communications].  Or subsidizing their relocation to places where there are jobs.
I'm approaching it from a somewhat humanist point of view. My problem with Caddy Asshole isn't that he appreciates hard work, but that he belittles people who have found a way to work less and enjoy more. That's a mindset we should all be striving for, but dismiss because it doesn't jibe with this so-called dream we've invented.

Obviously hypothetical, but if Professor John Frink invents Star Trek replicator technology tomorrow, do we embrace it or is he discovered in the woods, dead of suspected suicide on Friday? How do we embrace technology that allows everybody to have everything they want, when it doesn't jibe with the idea that reward demands toil? My hunch is that in fifty years we have various technologies accomplishing much the same thing. Are we capable of making such a social and economical shift?

And I'll reiterate that I'm not proposing immediate change, as I don't know what form it would take. It just strikes me that we're trying to shoehorn our existing model to fit a rapidly changing world, and backward progress isn't the direction we want to head.



el Barto, I'm sorry bossman, but I'm still struggling to see where you fall on this. 
Thank you, I'm still confused as well, but I didn't want to come off as either a wise ass or a dumb ass. :lol
Nah, you're coming off as neither. I'm working in a pretty abstract realm here, while trying not to come off as some vapid Star Trek nerd (or worse still, Gene Fucking Roddenberry).
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Offline Tick

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2017, 11:13:30 AM »

This thread is laughable? Ok...

So are a bunch of people marching for any reason conceivable. I have worked low paying jobs and that's on me.
I think making demands by marching is laughable. You want a better job aquire the skills to get one.

And Chino, that doesn't mean a college degree. It means learn a valuable skill that warrants better pay.
Be a plummer, an electrician, a data processor, fix copiers, be a tailor, a phlebotomist,a dental assistant,  a roofer, a taper, sheetrocker, a tile guy, a mason, etc.....

These are skills that don't take a 4 year degree, just some degree of effort to acquire the skill.
Or be a fast food employee and realize you will need to work more than one job to survive.

Again, sorry about the laughable comment.

What about my larger point that $15.00 per hour is equivalent to $4.77 in 1980 when we were young. According to this article, the living wage calculation for Connecticut in 2014 was $19.08 per hour. If that's still true, $15.00 per hour isn't even sufficient to provide basic necessities.
Correct, 15.00 is not  living wage. So the option is get a skill/trade and make more, or leave Connecticut because it is too expensive.
Why is it up to employees to pay more than a  job is worth because that person has no skill?

I guess some people think they should, but I don't. Stop marching and start bettering yourself. The choice is always there to rise above circumstances.

My sister dropped out of high should at 17 and had a kid at 18, and a second kid at 21. She bartended to make ends meet  and went back to should day and night while working to support her kids.
She went on to get her masters and later a PHD is psychology and makes roughly 200 an hour now.

She is the poster girl for yes you can!
Yup. Tick is dead on.  She's not your type.  Move on.   Tick is Obi Wan Kenobi


Offline Stadler

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2017, 11:15:04 AM »

This thread is laughable? Ok...

So are a bunch of people marching for any reason conceivable. I have worked low paying jobs and that's on me.
I think making demands by marching is laughable. You want a better job aquire the skills to get one.

And Chino, that doesn't mean a college degree. It means learn a valuable skill that warrants better pay.
Be a plummer, an electrician, a data processor, fix copiers, be a tailor, a phlebotomist,a dental assistant,  a roofer, a taper, sheetrocker, a tile guy, a mason, etc.....

These are skills that don't take a 4 year degree, just some degree of effort to acquire the skill.
Or be a fast food employee and realize you will need to work more than one job to survive.

Again, sorry about the laughable comment.

What about my larger point that $15.00 per hour is equivalent to $4.77 in 1980 when we were young. According to this article, the living wage calculation for Connecticut in 2014 was $19.08 per hour. If that's still true, $15.00 per hour isn't even sufficient to provide basic necessities.

I'm not sure what that is saying.  There is no guarantee of a "living wage", and there's no guarantee of being able to live in Connecticut.   Presumably the hourly living wage translates into an annual salary (typical conversion is 208 hours; that's $39,686 per year).   At $10/hour, that's roughly 24 hours of overtime a week.  At $15/hour, that's about seven hours of overtime.   Not counting double time for holidays or Sundays.  If that doesn't work for someone - be it children, etc. - why is it the responsibility of the state to fix the problem?   Connecticut is an expensive state to live in.   I've moved about ten times since I graduated college (and I'm not even counting local moves there; ACTUAL moves are something like 15 or 16) mostly for work.   I'm lucky now; I can negotiate that kind of thing and work remotely.  Some jobs you just can't do that.  You can't "remotely" do a brake job.  You can't "remotely" serve a coffee.   

Online TAC

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2017, 11:20:53 AM »
  Star Trek nerd 

Redundance! ;D




I suppose most things are made to increase convenience, make out lives easier. But I feel like we're going to reach a tipping point where working toward these things will be replaced by complacency and entitlement. 


would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

Offline Stadler

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2017, 11:21:45 AM »
I'm approaching it from a somewhat humanist point of view. My problem with Caddy Asshole isn't that he appreciates hard work, but that he belittles people who have found a way to work less and enjoy more. That's a mindset we should all be striving for, but dismiss because it doesn't jibe with this so-called dream we've invented.

Obviously hypothetical, but if Professor John Frink invents Star Trek replicator technology tomorrow, do we embrace it or is he discovered in the woods, dead of suspected suicide on Friday? How do we embrace technology that allows everybody to have everything they want, when it doesn't jibe with the idea that reward demands toil? My hunch is that in fifty years we have various technologies accomplishing much the same thing. Are we capable of making such a social and economical shift?

And I'll reiterate that I'm not proposing immediate change, as I don't know what form it would take. It just strikes me that we're trying to shoehorn our existing model to fit a rapidly changing world, and backward progress isn't the direction we want to head.

Gene, I got you now. I was thinking far more literally.  I'm actually with you (though I think the commercial was going for "funny", not the statement you took).  But neither here nor there, we SHOULD be looking for that kind of technology, because we will always find a way to apply our need to grow and expand.   As the guy said: "why did we leave a car there with the keys in it?  Because we're going BACK!".   

Offline bosk1

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2017, 11:23:17 AM »
You can't "remotely" do a brake job.  You can't "remotely" serve a coffee.   

You obviously aren't reading the thread carefully enough.  STAR TREK TECHNOLOGY!!!
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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2017, 11:25:03 AM »
Speaking of Star Trek nerds...
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

Offline Podaar

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2017, 11:26:10 AM »

el Barto, I'm sorry bossman, but I'm still struggling to see where you fall on this. 
Thank you, I'm still confused as well, but I didn't want to come off as either a wise ass or a dumb ass. :lol

I don't think it's very complicated, really. I'm guilty of it myself.

For instance, I had my house re-roofed last year. The crew who did the work were two Mexican immigrants (I have no idea about their status since they were employees of the company I hired, but they hardly knew any English). These two gentlemen arrived at the crack of dawn, ate lunch on the job, and worked until dark. They had my entire roof done in two days and it was perfect! They really busted their asses.

The old lady across the street had her roof done later that Fall and a crew of six Brads and Chets spent a full work week on a smaller and less complicated roof. They kinda moseyed about their jobs, would arrive around 9:00 am, have a long lunch off site, and leave by 4:30. They did a fantastic job too.

Now, when I've related this story before, I've been guilty of praising the former and disparaging the later. But why? Why is it better or more admirable to get all weepy-eyed over people earning a living by breaking their backs? Why wouldn't the second crew be a better outcome for all of us?

El Barto's post is very thought provoking.

edited some spelling
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 11:38:57 AM by Podaar »

Online TAC

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2017, 11:33:36 AM »
Well, it would depend on the quality, price, and how long you want to put up with having a crew at your place.

Doesn't everyone have an inner compass that recognizes things like ethic, nonsense, an appreciation of effort?
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

Offline Chino

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2017, 11:35:53 AM »

This thread is laughable? Ok...

So are a bunch of people marching for any reason conceivable. I have worked low paying jobs and that's on me.
I think making demands by marching is laughable. You want a better job aquire the skills to get one.

And Chino, that doesn't mean a college degree. It means learn a valuable skill that warrants better pay.
Be a plummer, an electrician, a data processor, fix copiers, be a tailor, a phlebotomist,a dental assistant,  a roofer, a taper, sheetrocker, a tile guy, a mason, etc.....

These are skills that don't take a 4 year degree, just some degree of effort to acquire the skill.
Or be a fast food employee and realize you will need to work more than one job to survive.

Again, sorry about the laughable comment.

What about my larger point that $15.00 per hour is equivalent to $4.77 in 1980 when we were young. According to this article, the living wage calculation for Connecticut in 2014 was $19.08 per hour. If that's still true, $15.00 per hour isn't even sufficient to provide basic necessities.
Correct, 15.00 is not  living wage. So the option is get a skill/trade and make more, or leave Connecticut because it is too expensive.
Why is it up to employees to pay more than a  job is worth because that person has no skill?


I think it comes down to a duty to society and those your business is built upon. The US is tough because we have massive companies that could handle the higher wages, and then we have small local places that would be greatly impacted, negatively. As far as employers being on the hook to pay more, I'm not sure how you determine or justify that across the board. Like I said, it's tough. I've talked about this before, but the American taxpayer shouldn't be on the hook for one cent of welfare for Walmart employees. Skilled labor or not, 6 of the 10 richest people in this country are Waltons, yet we (the taxpayers) had to provide more than $6B in government assistance to their employees last year. That to me is disgusting, and it's one of the reason I haven't spent a dime in Walmart in over 5 years now.

To the point of moving elsewhere because it's too expensive to live. I think that's significantly easier said than done. When people can barely afford a bus pass, moving probably isn't the easiest thing. Hell, many probably don't make enough in a month to cover the cost of a moving truck between state lines.

I agree with the getting skilled in a trade, but that and be an all encompassing solution. As said earlier, if minimum wage went up for fast food, the increase in people wanting those jobs would reduce the number of available positions. The same would happen in the trades. If every fast food worker suddenly went out and became a certified electrician, welder, or plumber, the labor pool would be too great.






Offline Podaar

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #51 on: February 22, 2017, 11:46:44 AM »
Well, it would depend on the quality, price, and how long you want to put up with having a crew at your place.

Doesn't everyone have an inner compass that recognizes things like ethic, nonsense, an appreciation of effort?

I don't know, TAC. I'm not 100% sure what you're asking.

My father (who made several fortunes in his life) used to tell me that the only managers worth having were those who wanted to do the least for the most amount of money. He truly believed that, lived it, and claimed it was a huge factor in his wealth. I'll admit that it always baffled me. It's counter-intuitive don't you think?

I think I'm babbling now.

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #52 on: February 22, 2017, 11:50:23 AM »
Well, it would depend on the quality, price, and how long you want to put up with having a crew at your place.

Doesn't everyone have an inner compass that recognizes things like ethic, nonsense, an appreciation of effort?

I don't know, TAC. I'm not 100% sure what you're asking.


Well, I think it's a natural reaction to view the harder working guys more favorable.




would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

Offline Podaar

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #53 on: February 22, 2017, 12:01:35 PM »
I'm not so sure anymore. It comes off a bit like rooting for people to struggle.

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #54 on: February 22, 2017, 12:03:44 PM »
Who roots for people to struggle? Seems immoral.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #55 on: February 22, 2017, 12:39:45 PM »
Yeah, but hard work isn't necessarily all it's cracked up to be.

Yes, it would be great if everyone took pride in their work and gave 110%, an honest day's work for an honest day's pay.  And if that is the way the world actually (or even usually) worked, there wouldn't be any argument.

But we all know people who are in positions/tax brackets that do not warrant their actual work level, whether quality of work/qualifications or how hard they work.  We also all know people who bust their asses their whole lives and never amount to shit in the long run.

THAT is the reality, and I think partly what I'm reading from El Barto (correct me if I'm wrong).  But as long as the myth of hard work = success is the measuring ground, no meaningful progress on income issues will be made.

As far as this specific thread topic, I'm torn.  I definitely believe there should be a minimum wage, because if I believe nothing else, I believe that companies (even good ones) won't give anything more than they feel they have to, and if they could pay current minimum wage workers $3.00 an hour, they would certainly do it.

And I also feel that the current federal minimum wage is almost certainly too low.  It's been $7.25 for a long time, and while I don't know for a fact, I suspect it hasn't kept up with inflation over the years.

Having said that, I don't in any way think that the minimum wage should equal a "living wage".  That's not really what any of those kinds of jobs are meant to be.  They are normally support type jobs that are easily filled by high school and college students.  $15.00 seems too high for me to support.  I work in the insurance business and deal a lot with Workers Comp, and I see a ton of people who make less than that amount in the building industry (HVAC, construction, flooring, etc), not McDonald's. 

Maybe an increase to around $10.00 or so, since $7.25 is too low.  But honestly, the fact that so many "adults" are currently having to depend on minimum wage jobs to make their "living" is likely cyclical, and I don't think we should put a potentially long-term burden on the economy for what could very well be a short-term problem.

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #56 on: February 22, 2017, 12:54:16 PM »
Question: When we see somebody panhandling, isn't our first thought that they should go out and get a job flipping burgers or mowing lawns? What good would it actually do? Does telling a bum to go and get an education so he can get a job that'll pay his keep make any sense? I'm not advocating for the homeless here, I think many of them want to be what they are, but if we're going to say that unskilled labor shouldn't earn a living wage then we shouldn't we take that into account when being judgemental of the "freeloaders?"

Hef: my point was that we shouldn't be regarding "work harder!" as the means to an end.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #57 on: February 22, 2017, 01:38:22 PM »
Hef: my point was that we shouldn't be regarding "work harder!" as the means to an end.
OK.  Well, I agree with that too.  Work smarter?  For sure. 

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #58 on: February 22, 2017, 01:51:02 PM »
It almost feels like we are mixing drive and hard work.  I don't doubt for a single second that the person at mcdonalds is working hard.  It's not easy work doing the drive through.  I mean, it's basic, but it's non stop and you got to be on your toes and I would say, 8 hours of that is hard work (I've done it).  Doing that hard work every day is not what's going to lead to success.  Having the drive to be in a better position is more likely to do that. And if you have that drive, you'll be looking at ways to work smarter not harder.

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #59 on: February 22, 2017, 02:10:30 PM »
Is that drive inherent? Is it a learned trait? Is it something everybody can possess?

As for myself, I'm not driven that way. I don't mind my work at all. I'm quite comfortable. I detest that I have to work as a requirement to survival. If I didn't have to work I still would, and I'd enjoy it much more when it was something I did out of want rather than necessity.
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Offline Chino

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #60 on: February 22, 2017, 02:16:34 PM »
Is that drive inherent? Is it a learned trait? Is it something everybody can possess?

As for myself, I'm not driven that way. I don't mind my work at all. I'm quite comfortable. I detest that I have to work as a requirement to survival. If I didn't have to work I still would, and I'd enjoy it much more when it was something I did out of want rather than necessity.

I have no drive, at least in my current job. Every year, management sits down with me for an annual review and I have to formally fill out goals and objectives for the year. I don't have any. Well, I guess my main goal is to get out as soon as I can. But that aside, management expects everyone to want to strive for greatness and work their way up. I don't want to. I'm completely content with where I'm at for now. I have no desire to be a director and spend my weekend reading literature on the future of catastrophic modelling. I just don't.

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #61 on: February 22, 2017, 02:21:59 PM »
Yeah, but hard work isn't necessarily all it's cracked up to be.

Yes, it would be great if everyone took pride in their work and gave 110%, an honest day's work for an honest day's pay.  And if that is the way the world actually (or even usually) worked, there wouldn't be any argument.

But we all know people who are in positions/tax brackets that do not warrant their actual work level, whether quality of work/qualifications or how hard they work.  We also all know people who bust their asses their whole lives and never amount to shit in the long run.

THAT is the reality, and I think partly what I'm reading from El Barto (correct me if I'm wrong).  But as long as the myth of hard work = success is the measuring ground, no meaningful progress on income issues will be made.

As far as this specific thread topic, I'm torn.  I definitely believe there should be a minimum wage, because if I believe nothing else, I believe that companies (even good ones) won't give anything more than they feel they have to, and if they could pay current minimum wage workers $3.00 an hour, they would certainly do it.

And I also feel that the current federal minimum wage is almost certainly too low.  It's been $7.25 for a long time, and while I don't know for a fact, I suspect it hasn't kept up with inflation over the years.

Having said that, I don't in any way think that the minimum wage should equal a "living wage".  That's not really what any of those kinds of jobs are meant to be.  They are normally support type jobs that are easily filled by high school and college students.  $15.00 seems too high for me to support.  I work in the insurance business and deal a lot with Workers Comp, and I see a ton of people who make less than that amount in the building industry (HVAC, construction, flooring, etc), not McDonald's. 

Maybe an increase to around $10.00 or so, since $7.25 is too low.  But honestly, the fact that so many "adults" are currently having to depend on minimum wage jobs to make their "living" is likely cyclical, and I don't think we should put a potentially long-term burden on the economy for what could very well be a short-term problem.
Great post. I think Connecticut just went to 10.10 an hour in January. I'd be ok with 11.00 or maybe even 12.00 but 15.00 is just not warranted for a fast food worker.
I work for 15.00 an hour, with opportunity for more based on my sales numbers. If I have a shit week in sales, then I get no extra. At least I'm not commission only.
So I can't get behind people asking for that wage because they feel entitled. They are not.

Get skills

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Offline cramx3

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #62 on: February 22, 2017, 02:49:23 PM »
Is that drive inherent? Is it a learned trait? Is it something everybody can possess?

No idea honestly.  What drives one is not the same as someone else.  The CEO of my company has some crazy drive.  I know it's because he felt like his own company (the one he built before this one) ended up going behind his back and firing him and that drove him to create this company to bring down his old one, which we did. 

I know when my boss at my previous job told me I hit the pay ceiling, that was my factor to cause me to push myself to get a better job and continue to make more money and grow my career.

I don't know what drives someone else.  But I would think, at thats just me, that working 40 hours at a fast food joint, coming home covered in sweat and smelling like fries every with not a whole lot of cash to show for it, would drive me to want to get a better job and get the education necessary and what not.

But I think it's perfectly fine if someone does not have that drive and is satisfied working that job for that pay.  However, I am not sure how that equates to more money beyond just adjusting for inflation.

Is that drive inherent? Is it a learned trait? Is it something everybody can possess?

As for myself, I'm not driven that way. I don't mind my work at all. I'm quite comfortable. I detest that I have to work as a requirement to survival. If I didn't have to work I still would, and I'd enjoy it much more when it was something I did out of want rather than necessity.

I have no drive, at least in my current job. Every year, management sits down with me for an annual review and I have to formally fill out goals and objectives for the year. I don't have any. Well, I guess my main goal is to get out as soon as I can. But that aside, management expects everyone to want to strive for greatness and work their way up. I don't want to. I'm completely content with where I'm at for now. I have no desire to be a director and spend my weekend reading literature on the future of catastrophic modelling. I just don't.

Yea, but you do have drive, it's just not at that job.  You are doing things with the lettuce.  I mean, that, to me, is a legit drive for something.  You hate your job so youre finding a way to get out of it.

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #63 on: February 22, 2017, 03:04:27 PM »
I'd love to get skills, so I could get a better job that I enjoy and that pays better. But I'm too busy trying to keep a roof over my head to be able to afford to get skills. Schooling ain't cheap.

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #64 on: February 22, 2017, 03:09:56 PM »
I'd love to get skills, so I could get a better job that I enjoy and that pays better. But I'm too busy trying to keep a roof over my head to be able to afford to get skills. Schooling ain't cheap.

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #65 on: February 22, 2017, 03:25:42 PM »
I'd love to get skills, so I could get a better job that I enjoy and that pays better. But I'm too busy trying to keep a roof over my head to be able to afford to get skills. Schooling ain't cheap.

That's why you take out a student loan and invest in yourself.  But you are right though, you will reach a point where that doesn't make sense either and you are stuck.  It could take 30 years to pay off a student loan.  Is it worth it if say you are 35 and need to go to school for 4 years and expect to hit that work force at 40 and pay off that loan?  Not sure, depends.  But it's not like the option isn't out there.

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #66 on: February 22, 2017, 03:32:52 PM »
Well, it would depend on the quality, price, and how long you want to put up with having a crew at your place.

Doesn't everyone have an inner compass that recognizes things like ethic, nonsense, an appreciation of effort?

I don't know, TAC. I'm not 100% sure what you're asking.

My father (who made several fortunes in his life) used to tell me that the only managers worth having were those who wanted to do the least for the most amount of money. He truly believed that, lived it, and claimed it was a huge factor in his wealth. I'll admit that it always baffled me. It's counter-intuitive don't you think?

I think I'm babbling now.

I don't think that means "don't work hard, and take the easy way out".   Jack Welch  used to say that "if you can't do your job in the eight hour day, you're a failure".  But NO ONE I knew at GE worked only a 40 hour week.  They would do their eight hours of what they're supposed to do, then they'd go and six sigma a process.  Or digitize something (that was the big thing then).  Or scrounge up new deals.   SOMETHING.   But the notion of "Oh, it's 4:30, half an hour left!  Uh oh!  4:45, 15 minutes left!  Yes! 4:55, 5 minutes left!" was for C-players.   

I think that statement means maximizing your time.  Make the most money you can in the shortest time, and leave yourself for other things:   personnel development, business development, problem-solving, etc. etc. etc.   

Offline Podaar

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #67 on: February 22, 2017, 03:41:46 PM »
Well, it would depend on the quality, price, and how long you want to put up with having a crew at your place.

Doesn't everyone have an inner compass that recognizes things like ethic, nonsense, an appreciation of effort?

I don't know, TAC. I'm not 100% sure what you're asking.

My father (who made several fortunes in his life) used to tell me that the only managers worth having were those who wanted to do the least for the most amount of money. He truly believed that, lived it, and claimed it was a huge factor in his wealth. I'll admit that it always baffled me. It's counter-intuitive don't you think?

I think I'm babbling now.

I don't think that means "don't work hard, and take the easy way out".   Jack Welch  used to say that "if you can't do your job in the eight hour day, you're a failure".  But NO ONE I knew at GE worked only a 40 hour week.  They would do their eight hours of what they're supposed to do, then they'd go and six sigma a process.  Or digitize something (that was the big thing then).  Or scrounge up new deals.   SOMETHING.   But the notion of "Oh, it's 4:30, half an hour left!  Uh oh!  4:45, 15 minutes left!  Yes! 4:55, 5 minutes left!" was for C-players.   

I think that statement means maximizing your time.  Make the most money you can in the shortest time, and leave yourself for other things:   personnel development, business development, problem-solving, etc. etc. etc.

Stadler, I bow down to your guru status, I really do. Still, I knew my Dad (surprising, right?), and I know what he meant. I literally heard him say, "Give me someone with the right mix of ambition, laziness and greed and I'll give you the most profitable manager you've ever known."

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #68 on: February 22, 2017, 03:43:47 PM »
Three thoughts from reading this:
- I think "hard work" is a euphemism for "reaching your capacity".  I think to a large degree people get hired for their runway.  Their ability to grow beyond the position at hand.  I know for the bosses I've had that have been the most successful - and taught me the most - the biggest career killer you could name was "Sorry, not my job". 

- I think part of this is accepting what your capacity is.   If you're a "not my job", "it's 10 of 5!" kind of worker, I think you should be realistic about what you make and your prospects for making it.  We talk a lot about the "top 10%!" and the "bottom 10%!" but that leaves 80% of workers in the middle.   Not everyone can be Tom Brady.  You need your Darius Kilgo's as well. 

- I think more people ought to think like a boss.  You don't have to ACT like a boss, or BE the boss, but THINK like the boss.  If you have a 10 minute task at 3:30, do you think your boss wants you to milk it to 5:00?   Maybe they won't care, but if someone comes to them at 4:25 and says "finished that task; next?" who do you think the boss is going to promote/give the raise to/come to again? 


Offline Stadler

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #69 on: February 22, 2017, 03:45:36 PM »
Well, it would depend on the quality, price, and how long you want to put up with having a crew at your place.

Doesn't everyone have an inner compass that recognizes things like ethic, nonsense, an appreciation of effort?

I don't know, TAC. I'm not 100% sure what you're asking.

My father (who made several fortunes in his life) used to tell me that the only managers worth having were those who wanted to do the least for the most amount of money. He truly believed that, lived it, and claimed it was a huge factor in his wealth. I'll admit that it always baffled me. It's counter-intuitive don't you think?

I think I'm babbling now.

I don't think that means "don't work hard, and take the easy way out".   Jack Welch  used to say that "if you can't do your job in the eight hour day, you're a failure".  But NO ONE I knew at GE worked only a 40 hour week.  They would do their eight hours of what they're supposed to do, then they'd go and six sigma a process.  Or digitize something (that was the big thing then).  Or scrounge up new deals.   SOMETHING.   But the notion of "Oh, it's 4:30, half an hour left!  Uh oh!  4:45, 15 minutes left!  Yes! 4:55, 5 minutes left!" was for C-players.   

I think that statement means maximizing your time.  Make the most money you can in the shortest time, and leave yourself for other things:   personnel development, business development, problem-solving, etc. etc. etc.

Stadler, I bow down to your guru status, I really do. Still, I knew my Dad (surprising, right?), and I know what he meant. I literally heard him say, "Give me someone with the right mix of ambition, laziness and greed and I'll give you the most profitable manager you've ever known."

Well, I'm not telling you you're wrong. I'd love to talk with him about that.  I'm fascinated by this stuff, as you might guess.