Author Topic: The Fight For 15  (Read 5631 times)

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Offline Chino

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #175 on: February 27, 2017, 08:42:04 AM »
Might be a little derail, but the comment below made me think of this thread. Back Story: There was a 3D printer campaign that cost $179 plus $55 for shipping. I received a defective unit, and 12,000+ backers got burned entirely and received nothing.

People need to learn how to budget their money in this country. I'm certainly guilty of pissing money away. I just chose to put $700 into a new remote control race truck over needed housework. But if I was shit broke, I would not be buying expensive toys on Kickstarter.

Leadergg about 6 hours ago

I can't believe it failed
179+55 $ this is my one month's salary
How can I tell my family I was cheated
I'm a hard-working man, but now I'm stupid
You stole the money from the poor people
My dream is dead I hate you
Pay back the money


Chino, you're my guy and all, but at the risk of sounding insensitive, the italicized piece drives me batty.  I'm assuming that's not you, but some other poster; why is any of that the seller's fault?  That "Leadergg" is presumably an adult, presumably of sound mind.  HE made that choice.  True, they have to deliver on the goods (or give a refund) but that he wagered the well-being of him and his family to make that purchase is no one's fault but his.     

Nothing insensitive there at all. That's exactly where my head's at. And no, that's not my comment by the way. Getting burned on Kickstarter aside, even if this thing was 100% functioning and worked as advertised, why the fuck is this guy spending a MONTH's salary on a 3D printer?

Offline El Barto

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #176 on: February 27, 2017, 08:56:45 AM »
I don't think anybody here is making this suggestion so this is not accusatory in any way. But, we seem to have established that there are many variables about college including how to do it and whether or not to do it. We've established that some people know what they want to do and others have no idea. I'm 46 and still in that camp whereas there are the happy wanderers that just land in the right place the right time through no skill or effort on their part. We've established that some people are just driven to make what they want happen, and others don't reach that point until later or not at all. Drive and ambition are psychological traits that may or may not develop.

So what do way say to the people who don't find their way? Tough shit, make a new plan? Part of what troubles is me is that none of us choose our own personality types or brain wiring. It's real easy for the motivated personality types to say "figure out what you want to do and do it," but of course it's never that simple. Or that if you want a living wage get some sort of education, which might or might not be applicable. I don't think anybody here is going to cop to "buck up and get a real job if you want to live," but it still comes back to where we started. Whether or not somebody with no aspirations beyond flipping burgers, playing CoD 17 and banging his girlfriend should be afforded a living wage. Or the guy who wants to work around until he finds his way in life. Or the person who mistakenly thought he was going to be the next James Hetfield and dropped out of school due to youthful ignorance. How do we hold all of these people to the same standards?

I think the answer to your question might be in "how do we define the standard"?   I don't at all suggest that we assess everyone the same (and I'm with you 1000% on the personality type thing) but what's the standard we're talking about?  Making ends meet?
The standard I was referring to was actually "go out and get a job, you loser!" That's not something we can apply to all people evenly. However, if the minimum wage is the cash equivalent of a section 8 voucher, Medicaid, a month of foodstamps and a bus pass, then perhaps it might be. If we're going to link not starving, or dying from exposure, or going untreated to employment, then it should actually work to that end.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #177 on: February 27, 2017, 10:18:38 AM »
Well, despite my belief in hard work, and putting in the effort, and being as creative with our careers as we are with our Twitter handles and our tattoos, I don't at all think it's all "get a job you loser".  I feel there is a segment of our population that needs more help than others, and we should accommodate that.  I have no problem with social programs, when used as a safety net.  I have a problem with the social program becoming the ends, not the means.   Having said that, it's less about any hard-on for social programs as it is that we are working at cross purposes.   If we have a system of incentives, it is counter-intuitive to provide those incentives to those that just opt out.   I get it if you can't compete, but if you don't want to?   I'm less sympathetic.

Offline El Barto

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #178 on: February 27, 2017, 11:10:12 AM »
Well, despite my belief in hard work, and putting in the effort, and being as creative with our careers as we are with our Twitter handles and our tattoos, I don't at all think it's all "get a job you loser".  I feel there is a segment of our population that needs more help than others, and we should accommodate that.  I have no problem with social programs, when used as a safety net.  I have a problem with the social program becoming the ends, not the means.   Having said that, it's less about any hard-on for social programs as it is that we are working at cross purposes.   If we have a system of incentives, it is counter-intuitive to provide those incentives to those that just opt out.   I get it if you can't compete, but if you don't want to?   I'm less sympathetic.
I agree about social welfare programs becoming an end rather than a safety net. It just seems to me that the incentive right now is pretty weak. I'm thinking about the panhandlers I see driving around Dallas, and it's easy to say they should just get a job, but 12 hr/day slaving over a comal won't actually help them any.
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Offline XJDenton

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #179 on: February 27, 2017, 11:20:11 AM »
Frankly, $15 is the minimum I value one hour of my time. Skills are irrelevant. You want one hour of my life? You pay what its worth.

Offline Stadler

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #180 on: February 27, 2017, 01:39:18 PM »
Frankly, $15 is the minimum I value one hour of my time. Skills are irrelevant. You want one hour of my life? You pay what its worth.

That's awesome a) on a bumper sticker, or b) if you're the one to make that call.  The vast majority of the time, people don't. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #181 on: February 27, 2017, 01:40:02 PM »
Well, despite my belief in hard work, and putting in the effort, and being as creative with our careers as we are with our Twitter handles and our tattoos, I don't at all think it's all "get a job you loser".  I feel there is a segment of our population that needs more help than others, and we should accommodate that.  I have no problem with social programs, when used as a safety net.  I have a problem with the social program becoming the ends, not the means.   Having said that, it's less about any hard-on for social programs as it is that we are working at cross purposes.   If we have a system of incentives, it is counter-intuitive to provide those incentives to those that just opt out.   I get it if you can't compete, but if you don't want to?   I'm less sympathetic.
I agree about social welfare programs becoming an end rather than a safety net. It just seems to me that the incentive right now is pretty weak. I'm thinking about the panhandlers I see driving around Dallas, and it's easy to say they should just get a job, but 12 hr/day slaving over a comal won't actually help them any.

Especially since some of the panhandlers actually do pretty damn well.  At least they did in the Philly area.   

Offline Chino

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #182 on: February 27, 2017, 01:44:30 PM »
I knew a sleazebag in college that'd pretend to be homeless and make over a hundred bucks in 4 hours or so of panhandling.

Offline XJDenton

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #183 on: February 27, 2017, 02:53:37 PM »
That's awesome a) on a bumper sticker, or b) if you're the one to make that call.  The vast majority of the time, people don't. 

Fortunately I live in a country with decent unions, so in fact the workers are the ones making the call, and fast food workers do make 15 USD an hour.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #184 on: February 27, 2017, 03:09:01 PM »
I have told myself ever since I graduated college that I would write a novel.  I have kept not doing it.

Recently, I have felt the itch again.  So we'll see.

If you want to immortalize me in fiction, you have my permission to do so.
Sweet.
Just make sure it's a five story anthology.
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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #185 on: February 27, 2017, 05:11:40 PM »
That's awesome a) on a bumper sticker, or b) if you're the one to make that call.  The vast majority of the time, people don't. 

Fortunately I live in a country with decent unions, so in fact the workers are the ones making the call, and fast food workers do make 15 USD an hour.

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Offline Stadler

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #186 on: February 28, 2017, 07:53:56 AM »
That's awesome a) on a bumper sticker, or b) if you're the one to make that call.  The vast majority of the time, people don't. 

Fortunately I live in a country with decent unions, so in fact the workers are the ones making the call, and fast food workers do make 15 USD an hour.

Well, yet another reason that we can't go comparing countries willy nilly.  In my former company - a Fortune 10 global manufacturing concern - our NON union shops are safer, more productive, more profitable, and the employees paid better than our union shops.   "Union" is at least as big a reason for off-shoring (the buzzword is now "localization") as anything else.   

Offline XJDenton

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #187 on: February 28, 2017, 08:09:10 AM »
Doesn't surprise me in the least. Unions in the US are very different beasts than the ones in Scandinavia.

Offline DragonAttack

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #188 on: February 28, 2017, 04:06:14 PM »

Well, yet another reason that we can't go comparing countries willy nilly.  In my former company - a Fortune 10 global manufacturing concern - our NON union shops are safer, more productive, more profitable, and the employees paid better than our union shops.   "Union" is at least as big a reason for off-shoring (the buzzword is now "localization") as anything else.

I’ve seen this mentioned at least twice, so I have to ask:  do the union and nonunion places make the same widgets?  Are the facilities the same age with the same machinery?  Are the workers younger or older?  Do the supervisors have the same ‘culture’ at both?

I ask, because I’ve been on both sides of the aisle, as well as with different management ‘attitudes’.  I worked for a public utilities years ago.  Three departments.  Our union department had more injuries than any other because of the type and age of the equipment, lack of preventative maintenance, human error and occasional stupidity.  We also knew that we could report injuries with only a modicum of ‘backlash’, without fear of losing our jobs.
But when our department manager and safety director would present their reports to City Hall at the end of the year, they’d brag about how the percentage of employees hurt was lower than the other two.  They’d lump in management, IT, etc into the mix, because we were very top heavy in that regards.  Also mentioned were many of the new safeguards that THEY had put into place.  Not mentioned was that many of those were negotiated by me when I was the lead safety rep or part of the committee, some that took about two minutes of discussion, and some that took weeks to negotiate.

Nonunion members tend to be leery of filing reports due to repercussions/loss of job due to lack of protection.  One case in point:  an administrative aide at Johns Hopkins Hospital (with 20+ years of experience) tripped on a loose rug at her building, breaking her right wrist.  She went on disability.  A week after returning to the job, they fired her.  And then she had to hire an attorney.   She eventually was reinstated with back pay.  She also moved on shortly after that, as her company loyalty had obviously been shot to hell, and she needed to move on for piece of mind.

Moving companies offshore:  I worked where most of the jobs were outsourced.  There was no union.  I stayed on for another month.  The work atmosphere took the expected dive during the process, and it became totally miserable afterwards.

And, well, I don’t begrudge the higher ups having their mansion and yacht and summer and winter homes, etc, etc, etc.  But how often do we see companies pulling up stakes, while the CEOs have $15M+ golden parachutes and bonuses and millions in stocks while shipping thousands of jobs overseas? 


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Offline Stadler

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #189 on: March 01, 2017, 08:24:17 AM »

And, well, I don’t begrudge the higher ups having their mansion and yacht and summer and winter homes, etc, etc, etc.  But how often do we see companies pulling up stakes, while the CEOs have $15M+ golden parachutes and bonuses and millions in stocks while shipping thousands of jobs overseas?

And now I have to ask... why is that a bad thing?   It's one of those things I don't buy into with Trump. I get the "Make America Great Again", but that - to me - doesn't mean having skilled, hard-working, innovative people making televisions.   I really don't get it; at the turn of the century, we had people fleeing Eastern Europe with the clothes on their back to make a better life, and most of them did.    At the end of the century, we had people, if not "fleeing", then "migrating" from India and China to bring their own level of skill, hard work, and innovation to America to make a better life, and many of them did.

But this auto worker is hell-bent on being a riveter, because "that's what I do", and won't move from Dearborn, Michigan to Knoxville, Tennessee, because that's where the work is?   The leadership reaps the benefits of the company performance.  That is a sum total of ALL the operations, not just the manufacturing operations in one location.   When I worked for that company, I had my career invested in there, and I had stock and retirements tied to that company's performance.  Why should my well-being be limited by the forced economy of still trying to build engines in Fort Wayne, Indiana, when there are skilled, willing people to make them cheaper?    And that's sort of the false argument here:   that it's a dollar wage that is nominally "less" than that which you'd pay the guy - or girl - from Fort Wayne doesn't mean that it's apples and apples.  Their cost of living is less, their wage scales are less, etc., but more importantly, their capacity and capability is different.   You don't pay Derek Jeter $8 million a year to hit fungoes to the outfielders.  You don't pay Mike Portnoy $5 million plus points to hit a four count on the cowbell to kick off your latest single.     

I can't speak for every company, or every employee, but for us, the plants were fairly interchangeable.  It wasn't always the "same" product, but certainly the same technologies.   For example, we built locomotive engines and units in one shop - union - and the same product but different product line in another non-union.  The health and safety programs were the same, because they were corporate run.  The differences were stark.  We got pushback from the unions - "we're not changing that process. That's different.  We need to renegotiate our contract."    How do you do business when every change turns into a six-month negotiation, where introduction of new technology now means revisiting the entire benefits package again?   I get leveraged negotiation, but that's ridiculous.   

I suppose there is something to the "newness" - most new plants are purposefully built to be "non-union", where possible - but it's not that cut and dry.   I was personally in a location that was 150 years old, manufacturing, and it was non-union.   

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #190 on: March 02, 2017, 05:08:01 PM »
I was laying in bed in my hotel room last night flipping through CNN and Foxnews and I saw Mike Rowe was about to come on.  I was never into his show, but figured what the hell, let's see what he has to say.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6iU31YgXZU

I feel like his interview is very relevant to this discussion.  He didn't talk about minimum wage, but cost of college and jobs that don't require college.  I thought he made some good points specifically about how college isn't for everyone and shouldn't be advertised and pushed for everyone.

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #191 on: March 03, 2017, 07:00:53 AM »
I've seen people hired at this Wal Mart DC I work in and Wal Mart pays between $18 to $20 to start and people do not last 2 week in this job. 
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Offline DragonAttack

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #192 on: March 04, 2017, 09:55:54 PM »
I think the minimum wage should go up to $9.  It's time.  Any higher requests are silly dreams.  Same with the utopian free college tuitions.  If that's the case, please reimburse me and my wife the $100K+ for tuition at U of Delaware for my stepdaughter.

Stadler, I would 'discuss' my disagreements, due to so many 'blanket' statements.  I'll simply write that I disagree with most of your opinions recently stated.

Life isn't as black and white as stated, as well as individual choices on moving to retain a job (that would require a dissertation that I do not have time for).  I do know that having many work, as opposed to a few being rich, results in a hundred-fold benefit to Social Security and Medicare taxes, as well as local mom and pops thriving, town and city infrastructures being stable and expanding, fewer ghost towns, a better America, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

To say that every office worker hangs around after work, while all union workers speed out of the parking lot a minute after work .....is total BS.  I've seen both sides.  Been on both sides.  Be grateful that unions allowed you to have a Sunday off, and won't allow kids to work 16 hours.  Why, oh why, did we ever need unions in the first place?  I mean, company owners have always loved their employees and treated them fairly, with the utmost sensitivity to their safety and well being.

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Offline Stadler

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #193 on: March 13, 2017, 09:17:41 AM »
Life isn't as black and white as stated, as well as individual choices on moving to retain a job (that would require a dissertation that I do not have time for).  I do know that having many work, as opposed to a few being rich, results in a hundred-fold benefit to Social Security and Medicare taxes, as well as local mom and pops thriving, town and city infrastructures being stable and expanding, fewer ghost towns, a better America, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

....which goes to the people contributing.   "Social Security" isn't a general fund. 

Quote
To say that every office worker hangs around after work, while all union workers speed out of the parking lot a minute after work .....is total BS.  I've seen both sides.  Been on both sides.  Be grateful that unions allowed you to have a Sunday off, and won't allow kids to work 16 hours.  Why, oh why, did we ever need unions in the first place?  I mean, company owners have always loved their employees and treated them fairly, with the utmost sensitivity to their safety and well being.

[off my angry rant now]

There was a time and a place for unions, and that has passed.   I don't know about you but I'm salary, non-union, and I work what I have to to get the job done.  I haven't adhered to a "9 am to 5 pm" schedule - nor a 40 hour week - in DECADES.   And that's the difference.   Whether they "literally" speed out of the parking lot or not is not the point - I have the same beef with non-union workers who pack up their shit at 4:50 so they don't waste ONE MINUTE of "off the clock time".   

Offline XeRocks81

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #194 on: March 13, 2017, 10:56:57 AM »

There was a time and a place for unions, and that has passed. 

Talk about a sweeping generalization.   To me that's like anti-vaccine talk, "we don't need 'em anymore!".  That's not to say that employers are like viruses of course, that would be dumb.     But the push and pull of that relationship has created better working conditions and there needs to be that kind of check in place in one form or another.   

Offline XJDenton

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #195 on: March 13, 2017, 11:08:26 AM »
There was a time and a place for unions, and that has passed. I don't know about you but I'm salary, non-union, and I work what I have to to get the job done.  I haven't adhered to a "9 am to 5 pm" schedule - nor a 40 hour week - in DECADES.   And that's the difference.   Whether they "literally" speed out of the parking lot or not is not the point - I have the same beef with non-union workers who pack up their shit at 4:50 so they don't waste ONE MINUTE of "off the clock time".   

Why should they work outside their contracted hours?

Offline Stadler

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #196 on: March 13, 2017, 12:44:14 PM »

There was a time and a place for unions, and that has passed. 

Talk about a sweeping generalization.   To me that's like anti-vaccine talk, "we don't need 'em anymore!".  That's not to say that employers are like viruses of course, that would be dumb.     But the push and pull of that relationship has created better working conditions and there needs to be that kind of check in place in one form or another.

Not true; as for the "checks", I agree with that 100%.   But the unions don't provide that anymore.   The increased mobility of (some of) the work force, ecommerce, social media, and other companies (you'd be surprised how unwilling most companies are to do business with bad actors; it's a stink that doesn't go away) all serve that better today.   Even when the unions do step in, it's usually only as a bargaining chip, to be forgotten as soon as that pay bump, or shortage of hours is agreed to.   

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #197 on: June 26, 2017, 10:04:57 PM »
http://money.cnn.com/2017/06/26/news/seattle-minimum-wage-15/index.html

For discussion if anyone is interested. Of particular interest to me locally, though I don't live or work in city limits.
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Offline TL

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #198 on: June 28, 2017, 10:56:41 AM »
On minimum wage;
Here's a hypothetical. Instead of focusing on "$15" specifically, how would folks here feel about a scheduled annual increase to the minimum wage based on inflation (and possibly other factors)?


On universal basic income;
It's important to note that most ideas of basic income are just for the essentials (and what exactly the essentials are could certainly be a topic to be debated). Most people want more than just the basics in life, and for that they would still need to work. Luxuries (a bigger house, a nicer car, fancy vacations, and so on and so on) would still cost extra. If you work hard and earn money on top of UBI, you would still have more than people who worked less, or at lower skill jobs. It would just mean fewer people out there struggling to put food on the table or a roof over their head.

I also have enough faith in humanity to think that, even with UBI, most people aren't going to just sit around on their butts all day. Sure, some would, but I like to think that most people are driven by more than just money. Most people are still going to want to do something worthwhile (and again, UBI isn't about "no one will work anymore". It's more about not having your basic human needs directly tied to the whims of the job market).

Offline Chino

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #199 on: June 28, 2017, 11:10:28 AM »
Some form of UBI would make the minimum wage thing a whole lot easier. As someone who worked for a relatively small yet large retailer (270ish employees), I can understand the damage too quick a wage hike could cause. It's tough because he have massive corporate conglomerates sharing the same space as small businesses. One could afford the increase, the other will certainly struggle, or worse yet, not be able to. 

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #200 on: June 28, 2017, 11:45:42 AM »
On minimum wage;
Here's a hypothetical. Instead of focusing on "$15" specifically, how would folks here feel about a scheduled annual increase to the minimum wage based on inflation (and possibly other factors)?

I think that's a better way to go about it than just throwing out a number that's significantly high (in %) change over the current minimum wage without any numerical analysis to show why 15 is the magic number.

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #201 on: June 28, 2017, 12:23:25 PM »
To clarify, in Seattle the $15 minimum is phased in over a couple years, I don't fully know the details. But other than $15 looking good on a sign, there is no particular reason for that number.

... most people aren't going to just sit around on their butts all day. Sure, some would, but I like to think that most people are driven by more than just money. Most people are still going to want to do something worthwhile

I think more people want to do something that will make sure they don't fall behind their friends and neighbors in the bank account. There are plenty of "worthwhile" jobs out there, but people don't becoming computer programmers because it is worthwhile.

And if we start handing out UBI, it wouldn't take long for the complaints to come in that it doesn't cover enough "essentials."

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Offline Stadler

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #202 on: June 29, 2017, 07:09:55 PM »
To clarify, in Seattle the $15 minimum is phased in over a couple years, I don't fully know the details. But other than $15 looking good on a sign, there is no particular reason for that number.

... most people aren't going to just sit around on their butts all day. Sure, some would, but I like to think that most people are driven by more than just money. Most people are still going to want to do something worthwhile

I think more people want to do something that will make sure they don't fall behind their friends and neighbors in the bank account. There are plenty of "worthwhile" jobs out there, but people don't becoming computer programmers because it is worthwhile.

And if we start handing out UBI, it wouldn't take long for the complaints to come in that it doesn't cover enough "essentials."

Regardless of where any of us stand on "basic human nature", you can't and shouldn't make policy on that.   For all my hatred of handouts and free lunches - and government punishing business in order to pander for more votes - I have a rather high opinion of human nature.   But again, you can't make policy on that.   

Offline Podaar

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #203 on: July 11, 2017, 06:28:45 AM »
I have a rather high opinion of human nature.   But again, you can't make policy on that.

You (we) can't? Why not?

From Human Nature to Public Policy

Human Nature and Government Policy

Just some food for thought. These two articles are certainly not proofs, and the second one, isn't even particularly good--still, considering that it was written in 1948 it is pretty interesting. Oh, and it's $15.00 to download!