Author Topic: The Fight For 15  (Read 3581 times)

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Offline Stadler

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #105 on: February 23, 2017, 03:39:42 PM »
Somewhat OT but I think we might need to reckon pretty soon with the concept of universal basic income.


Why?  How is that different than a minimum wage, which has been shown not to work?   Why double down on that?

Offline antigoon

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #106 on: February 23, 2017, 03:49:01 PM »
Because it decouples the need to work with the ability to survive.

Offline El Barto

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #107 on: February 23, 2017, 03:49:52 PM »
Well, that's basically where I've been going for the last two days, but I think it's incompatible with the American mindset. We've settled on this notion of the American dream, where everybody has the same opportunity. If it works out that's great. If not, tough shit. I just don't see us making the move from opportunity to right, and that's going to be a big problem as we go forward.

It is as of now, but I wouldn't be so sure for the future.  I don't think we've reached the point yet where that is our reality, but as the older generations fade away and the new ones come to take charge while robots start to take over their jobs, I don't think it'll be as big of a problem to overcome because if that is indeed our future, I believe it will become more clear that it's the way to go.
Now look who's being Gene Fucking Roddenberry.  :lol
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Offline El Barto

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #108 on: February 23, 2017, 03:51:12 PM »
Because it decouples the need to work with the ability to survive.
And that quite succinctly explains why Americans won't go for it.
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Offline j

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #109 on: February 23, 2017, 05:35:42 PM »
This really is a fascinating topic, although because I've been surrounded by American capitalism my whole life, I don't know what paradigm would replace the current one and I don't have the imagination to conceptualize it.  But the notion of "creating jobs" in a "prosperous" nation as we allegedly are is so nonsensical to me, despite that I think that individuals working and contributing to each other's well-being is central to the very basis for human society.  When basic needs are met and there are large numbers of individuals whose contribution-to-utilization ratio is less than 1, it raises a lot of interesting and ethical questions.

From an individual perspective, I find myself in the "obtain a skill set" camp for the most part, because oftentimes if you don't have a skill set, you're replaceable.  Granted, the means to do so aren't readily available to many people, but in general if you're working a shitty job for shitty pay, do something to get out of it and do something else.  It may require hard work without a guarantee of payoff; the old "work hard and you will be rewarded" mantra of my parents' generation is total bullshit in my opinion.  The hard work is (usually) necessary but not sufficient; by itself it has no value except to an employer who wants maximum productivity per wage dollar, regardless of the toll on the worker.  As others have said too, hard work comes in many forms.  To me, the worst form is long hours.  Some work is physically or mentally taxing, some is psychologically so, etc.  Whether or not you're "appropriately" compensated sorta just revolves around the fundamental question "what value does the work I'm doing create for society?"  Expectations often don't line up with this reality.

That said, there's hardly a dream job for everybody.  If you're extremely lucky, you either seek out or stumble into a job you actually enjoy and that allows you a little disposable income.  If you're not quite as lucky, but still pretty damned fortunate, you end up in a job that you can tolerate.  If you're like most, you drag yourself out of bed every day to do a job you can't stand in order to get the bills paid.  And none of those things have anything to do with the VALUE the work that you do, however satisfying or soul-sucking you may find it personally.

Re: universal basic income, it just seems so ridiculously and completely fiscally non-viable for this country.  I'm guessing it would be funded in part by there no longer being a need for certain other social welfare institutions, and of course by large tax hikes, but there is no way that could make a significant dent in the immense cost of such a thing.  Not to mention the complete overhaul of so many current systems that would be required, and the fallout effects on the very fabric of our economy that couldn't be predicted.  I haven't read anything academic arguing for or against it, but on the surface it just strikes me as an idealistic pipe dream.

-J

Offline chknptpie

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #110 on: February 23, 2017, 06:56:27 PM »
No, its not always that situation.  I didn't think we were talking about people without opportunities, I just assumed general public, like the person who chose to drop out of high school in chkptpies example not the person who couldn't attend high school because of something out of their control.  I am stemming my example from things we can control.  I do believe we all should have the opportunity to be successful.  I firmly believe, for the most part (of course there are exceptions) that is the case now.

I definitely am including people who don't have those opportunities available to them. I do not think the majority of high school dropouts do it for the hell of it. I believe that most likely do it because they need to support their family. Maybe that's the significant difference in our thinking.

Offline The King in Crimson

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #111 on: February 23, 2017, 09:52:30 PM »
Somewhat OT but I think we might need to reckon pretty soon with the concept of universal basic income.


Why?  How is that different than a minimum wage, which has been shown not to work?   Why double down on that?
I don't think that claim is as universal as you think it is.

Besides, a basic income would be entirely different than a minimum wage. Like not even remotely similar.

Somewhat OT but I think we might need to reckon pretty soon with the concept of universal basic income.
I think it's a topic that's going to come up more and more as time goes on. I've not read enough on the topic to have a fully formed opinion, but I'm curious if anyone here has any thoughts on it.
It would require a complete retooling of how not just American but almost the entire world sees both jobs and income. As robotics and automation systems spread, it's going to be something that we will have to tackle sooner rather than later I think. We're already seeing the start of it, with manufacturing jobs being either outsourced or getting replaced by automation and there really being fewer and fewer opportunities for blue-collar types and factory workers to make a decent, living wage. How long before the burger flippers and ditch diggers and janitorial jobs are replaced by robotics? How many of these jobs are currently being dominated by undocumented immigrants or other practices that allow artificial suppression of wages and costs?

It might be a long time off before issues like these reach critical mass but I think we're already starting to feel the first tendrils of it grasping hold. I personally don't think anything even remotely similar to a basic income will happen until there's some sort of economic collapse because culturally and societally, we just aren't built that way. If anyone has a taste for sci-fi, the books that The Expanse television show are based on touch briefly on what a society with a basic income might look like. It doesn't really paint a rosy picture, to be honest, but then again not starving or dying out in the cold is probably pretty nice. I'm sure other speculative fiction and sci-fi probably touch on the subject as well.

Offline Stadler

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #112 on: February 24, 2017, 07:50:49 AM »
Because it decouples the need to work with the ability to survive.

And why on earth would we do that?   "Work" isn't just about "survival".  There is a societal element to work, too.  Everyone's efforts bring something to the table, in some form or fashion.   Why encourage that behavior?   It runs afoul of basic human nature.

Offline antigoon

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #113 on: February 24, 2017, 07:55:12 AM »
Because it decouples the need to work with the ability to survive.

And why on earth would we do that?   "Work" isn't just about "survival".  There is a societal element to work, too.  Everyone's efforts bring something to the table, in some form or fashion.   Why encourage that behavior?   It runs afoul of basic human nature.

I dunno man. Like the posts after mine indicated, it would indeed involve a pretty big paradigm shift in our culture. I think it's worth having the discussion.

Offline Stadler

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #114 on: February 24, 2017, 07:56:22 AM »
I don't think that claim is as universal as you think it is.

Besides, a basic income would be entirely different than a minimum wage. Like not even remotely similar.

Well, I'm paring it down so it doesn't get repetitive, but I never said it was "universal".  My initial quote was "most studies have shown...". It's not universal.   But it's not a slam dunk success either.

And saying it's "like not even remotely similar" doesn't MAKE it "not even remotely similar".  It's exactly the same, economically.  It takes away, to varying degrees, the market valuation of a job, and it provides a degree of income that is independent of time, quality or value of work performed.  In other words, it's a subsidy, one partial, one absolute. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #115 on: February 24, 2017, 07:58:36 AM »
Because it decouples the need to work with the ability to survive.

And why on earth would we do that?   "Work" isn't just about "survival".  There is a societal element to work, too.  Everyone's efforts bring something to the table, in some form or fashion.   Why encourage that behavior?   It runs afoul of basic human nature.

I dunno man. Like the posts after mine indicated, it would indeed involve a pretty big paradigm shift in our culture. I think it's worth having the discussion.

Oh, I 100% think it's worth having the discussion, but I think the discussion needs to be broader, and needs to account for things like "how do we fund this?", "how do we induce people to be productive parts of society - in whatever way they can be productive", and "how do we effect the paradigm shift that you and el Barto are positing (cram too)?  How do we light the fire, in effect, without some sort of revolution or other overhaul that has it's own downsides?"


Offline lordxizor

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #116 on: February 24, 2017, 08:00:42 AM »
I have no problem with someone working minimum wage jobs having to work 60 hours a week to achieve a total salary capable of living off of. There needs to be some advantage to getting an education and getting a better job. However, I do believe that if everyone currently making minimum wage suddenly got an education and was ready to move up the ladder there would not be nearly enough jobs for them.

I also believe we are rapidly reaching a point, if we're not already there, when there will not be enough well paying jobs to go around for those who want them. Once we reach that pount, there will need to be some sort of universal minimum income in order to let people survive. Though that should also be coupled with incentives to reduce birth rates to keep the problem from getting worse.

Offline cramx3

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #117 on: February 24, 2017, 08:01:24 AM »
It runs afoul of basic human nature.

I feel this way too, but at the same time, in this futuristic scenario (because I truly believe we aren't there yet) I think it's possible that basic human nature changes.  If robots take over the work force, it changes a lot about how we live.  I'm not saying what is the best course of action in terms of standard of living and basic survival, I have no idea, but I do think these discussions are important and will be ever changing as we move forward.

Part of me is a bit freaked out thinking that far down the line.  I wouldn't be surprised if we entered another world war that changes the world forever before we reach the point of robots taking over the work force.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #118 on: February 24, 2017, 08:29:48 AM »
I think that trade schools and community colleges are woefully understressed in this country.  So much of high school in this country is about college prep (meaning 4-year colleges/universities), but frankly, a lot of people don't really need bachelors degrees, and also there are lots of careers that wouldn't require any more than vocational training or an associates degree that are just as lucrative (if not more) than many degrees requiring bachelors degrees.

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Offline El Barto

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #119 on: February 24, 2017, 08:42:03 AM »
Because it decouples the need to work with the ability to survive.

And why on earth would we do that?   "Work" isn't just about "survival".  There is a societal element to work, too.  Everyone's efforts bring something to the table, in some form or fashion.   Why encourage that behavior?   It runs afoul of basic human nature.
If work were decoupled from survival, would you contribute or would you sit at home and drink and play games all day? I'm lazy and I despise the need to work to feed myself, but I'd absolutely want to do something worthwhile if given an abundance of free time. In my case it'd probably be more along the lines of become the world's most educated man, but I really believe others would want to do something more contributive. The difference would be that they're contributing to something they want to be moving along, rather than what they feel will best provide for them.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #120 on: February 24, 2017, 08:44:41 AM »
We cannot ever achieve Gene Rodenberry's vision of the future if we do not decouple the need to work from the ability to survive.

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Offline Chino

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #121 on: February 24, 2017, 08:45:38 AM »
I think that trade schools and community colleges are woefully understressed in this country.  So much of high school in this country is about college prep (meaning 4-year colleges/universities), but frankly, a lot of people don't really need bachelors degrees, and also there are lots of careers that wouldn't require any more than vocational training or an associates degree that are just as lucrative (if not more) than many degrees requiring bachelors degrees.

The amount of friends I have that needed a bachelor's degree to do something they could have been trained to do in four weeks boggles my mind. One of them literally spends 8 hours a day handing people plastic cups and watches them piss in it for the state. When they're done he tapes the lid shut and slaps a sticker on it. A justice and law degree was needed to get that job. Even my job in corporate America could have easily been covered in 6 months of dedicated courses. So much time is wasted in college. Don't get me wrong, I love anthropology, history, and bio, but I shouldn't have had to waste one cent taking those classes if my goal was to get into a technical field. Two art classes, two PE classes, music appreciation classes, photography... c'mon. I spent at least 2 years of my college career taking unnecessary filler bullshit. I'm already hating the master's degree trends. They have value in certain fields, but the amount of 40+ year olds that I work with that are back in school is crazy. You do not need a master's degree to be a project manager.

Offline The King in Crimson

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #122 on: February 24, 2017, 08:59:03 AM »
I don't think that claim is as universal as you think it is.

Besides, a basic income would be entirely different than a minimum wage. Like not even remotely similar.

Well, I'm paring it down so it doesn't get repetitive, but I never said it was "universal".  My initial quote was "most studies have shown...". It's not universal.   But it's not a slam dunk success either.

You're right, it is not a slam dunk success, but to say it's a proven failure is being disingenuous at best. Most studies do not agree on the topic and reports about the effects of minimum wage are conflicting at best, with some good and some bad results. As with most things.

Quote
And saying it's "like not even remotely similar" doesn't MAKE it "not even remotely similar".  It's exactly the same, economically.  It takes away, to varying degrees, the market valuation of a job, and it provides a degree of income that is independent of time, quality or value of work performed.  In other words, it's a subsidy, one partial, one absolute.
Well... they are similar in that both are government mandated and involve income. Minimum wage is predicated entirely on your ability to work and is provided, largely, by private industry. Basic income is a baseline that does not depend upon holding down a job to benefit from it and would be provided by the government.

They're not really the same at all because basic income would require a vast restructuring of how we view both jncome and jobs, while minimum wage works entirely within the existing system. Raising the minimum wage may have negative ramifications but the market would survive. Enacting a basic income would be a much more difficult task.

Offline The King in Crimson

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #123 on: February 24, 2017, 09:04:29 AM »
Because it decouples the need to work with the ability to survive.

And why on earth would we do that?   "Work" isn't just about "survival". 
If the jobs are not there, where are you going to work?

Quote
There is a societal element to work, too.  Everyone's efforts bring something to the table, in some form or fashion.   Why encourage that behavior?   It runs afoul of basic human nature.
It's not like if basic income were a thing that people would just sit around doing nothing all day. With work being decoupled from survival, people might pursue vanity projects or just things that bring them pleasure but arguably would not bring them income in a purely market driven economy.

Offline cramx3

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #124 on: February 24, 2017, 09:07:19 AM »
I think that trade schools and community colleges are woefully understressed in this country.  So much of high school in this country is about college prep (meaning 4-year colleges/universities), but frankly, a lot of people don't really need bachelors degrees, and also there are lots of careers that wouldn't require any more than vocational training or an associates degree that are just as lucrative (if not more) than many degrees requiring bachelors degrees.

The amount of friends I have that needed a bachelor's degree to do something they could have been trained to do in four weeks boggles my mind. One of them literally spends 8 hours a day handing people plastic cups and watches them piss in it for the state. When they're done he tapes the lid shut and slaps a sticker on it. A justice and law degree was needed to get that job. Even my job in corporate America could have easily been covered in 6 months of dedicated courses. So much time is wasted in college. Don't get me wrong, I love anthropology, history, and bio, but I shouldn't have had to waste one cent taking those classes if my goal was to get into a technical field. Two art classes, two PE classes, music appreciation classes, photography... c'mon. I spent at least 2 years of my college career taking unnecessary filler bullshit. I'm already hating the master's degree trends. They have value in certain fields, but the amount of 40+ year olds that I work with that are back in school is crazy. You do not need a master's degree to be a project manager.

I agree with what you are saying.  I think colleges want to produce some well rounded education though.  Whether that is what people want, I don't know.  I like you enjoyed all my courses outside of engineering, but I mean, I don't really use any of the knowledge I learned in college in my real life.  Although I could say I learned a lot about life, like time and money management (how to do 20 shots of tequila without puking...), from my college years that I do use everyday.

Offline XeRocks81

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #125 on: February 24, 2017, 09:07:40 AM »
It's almost like Stadler's never heard of Star Trek  :loser:  (the loser here being us Trekkies)

Offline TAC

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #126 on: February 24, 2017, 09:10:02 AM »

  Although I could say I learned a lot about life, like time and money management (how to do 20 shots of tequila without puking...), from my college years that I do use everyday.

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Offline bosk1

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #127 on: February 24, 2017, 09:23:14 AM »
Why does someone need to go into debt to be able to have a minimal standard of living? I find it more acceptable to go into debt for a house than an education - at least the house "should" give some return on investment.

Well, let me answer with my own life story of sorts.  And I'm not saying people should do exactly as I did, or that my way was the "best" way, or anything like that.  I am merely using my own example to show that there are ways to create opportunities, that's all.  So:

In high school, I realized that, although my parents had always told me I would go to a great college and get a great degree, and that I would be the first in the family to do so, I eventually realized that they neither had the financial means to send me to such a school nor the practical knowledge about how to actually make that happen without driving the family deep into debt (assuming it would even be possible that way).  I didn't either.  And although I had done reasonably well in school, as competitive as things were even in the late '80s, there was no way my grades and extra-curriculars would get me in and set me up financially.  So I had to look at other options.

I went into the military for 4 years right out of high school rather than going to college.  I didn't really know how that would pan out.  But I also didn't really have a clue about much, and saw some of my friends that were a year ahead of me in school already in college just kinda goofing off and not really appearing to go anywhere productive.  And I knew that, at the very least, I would be earning some money and skills, and earning GI bill benefits. 

Once the military finished, I moved back home to save money and went to a local community college to do my first two (turned into three) years of school, again, to save money.  I continued to either live at home or rent a cheap room back in my home neighborhood and commute to school rather than live on or near campus where it was a TON more expensive.  Yes, I missed out on some of the "college experience."  But I saved a lot of money, and didn't approach it as if I somehow had a right to the "college experience."  I also worked a lot of hours at part-time jobs, did my best to advance in those jobs to earn more money, and sometimes left jobs for better ones when I hit an advancement wall or a better opportunity came along.  I also worked more and did side jobs when I was able, like during summer breaks.  I also studied hard and applied myself to get good grades.  Doing that in community college, I was able to transfer to my school of choice, which is one of the top 3 schools in California.  I continued to do that, and got a full scholarship, plus a living stipend when I decided to continue my education and go to law school.  (I also took a year off after my undergrad degree to work full time and sock away money for law school)  In law school, I did similar things in terms of keeping my lifestyle simple so as to not incur unnecessary expenses. 

All told, I came out of the experience with my parents contributing a grand total of $400 to my education, plus the room and board of my first year or so, and I had a grand total of $6,000 in student loan debt by the time I graduated law school in 2001.  With a bit more knowledge, I could have done even better than that.  But I'm not complaining.  That is a VERY manageable amount of debt for an undergraduate and graduate education.

Again, not saying everyone needs to follow my example, or even do it in a way similar to how I did it.  I am just using it as an example to show that there are a myriad of opportunities for people to find ways to get a good education without getting up to their eyeballs in debt.  It requires research, thinking out of the box, making lifestyle choices that may be very different from one's peers, and various "sacrifices."  But the opportunities are absolutely there.  And while some of those opportunities look different in 2017 than they did in 2001, there are definitely MANY opportunities there today if people want that path.  And I am also not saying that everyone should go out and get a college education, but am merely responding to your point that it is hard and expensive for those that want to.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #128 on: February 24, 2017, 09:27:43 AM »
Cool story Bosk.  I've said it before and I'll say it again here, I am a firm believer of "If there's a will, there's a way" and there most certainly is a way to get educated that works for you (wether that be for low cost, or doing one class a week because you are juggling job and life) but it all comes down to putting in the effort if you want something.  It's there, you have to grab it.

Offline TAC

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #129 on: February 24, 2017, 09:29:29 AM »
Cool story Bosk. 

yeah, but Bosk, can you do 20 shots of Tequila like Cram and not puke? That's the question! :D



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Offline Chino

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #130 on: February 24, 2017, 09:29:59 AM »
Good post, Bosk. Anytime a younger person is talking about going to college, I always recommend taking as many community college classes as they can before going to a four year university.

Offline kaos2900

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #131 on: February 24, 2017, 09:39:07 AM »
I think the overall structure of High School should be changed. First two years should be basic classes (English, Math, etc.). At some point before the end of the second year the student should be able to choose if they want to go the 4 year college path or the trade path. If kid wants to be mechanic, electrician, brick layer, etc. then get them in classes or training early rather than wasted two years prepping for something they don't have any interest in.

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #132 on: February 24, 2017, 09:43:35 AM »
I think the overall structure of High School should be changed. First two years should be basic classes (English, Math, etc.). At some point before the end of the second year the student should be able to choose if they want to go the 4 year college path or the trade path. If kid wants to be mechanic, electrician, brick layer, etc. then get them in classes or training early rather than wasted two years prepping for something they don't have any interest in.

I think you are onto something that high schools should do a better job at preparing for the real world and not just teaching things that aren't going to help everyone.  In my high school, it was pretty much made clear that you need to go to college at any cost.  My parents pretty much beat this into my head as well, that there were no other options besides a 4 year degree.  It wasn't until I got a bit older that I realized that's so not true.  Not that I have regrets on my own education, but that there are some decent jobs out there and career paths that don't require going into debt for.  My good friend didn't go to college, he took out a loan and bought a car wash and runs it.  Been doing it for 10 years now.   Another friend became a local cop after a 2 year degree, although they did just change it that you do need a 4 year degree now to become a cop locally here.

Offline El Barto

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #133 on: February 24, 2017, 09:45:28 AM »
I responded to a post the other day by saying that I was approaching things from a humanist point of view, and Bosk's story kind of illustrates where I'm coming from. And this is not to denigrate what he did, which I actually find quite commendable, in fact. I just think it's a shame that when given one shot at life, we have to spend a full third of it preparing to work. Then half of it working in the hopes that we might get the last 20% or so to chill and reap the rewards. This is why Cadillac Asshole bugged me so much. Are the Europeans really weak for taking August off? I think they're pretty damned clever.
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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #134 on: February 24, 2017, 09:49:42 AM »
Are the Europeans really weak for taking August off? I think they're pretty damned clever.

I think you are onto something about how the Europeans work, Americans work way too hard overall.  I mean, working 40 hours is not typical for anyone I know, yet in europe, you might not even be allowed to work more.  My coworker in Amsterdam has it good, does the same job as me, gets paid a bit less, but works significantly less as well and gets more days off, by law.

Even in California, the labor laws are better for the workers.  Overtime after 8 hours in a day, not just 40 hours in a week.  I'd be making so much more money if I worked in Cali.  My coworker there is swimming in his OT money thanks to that law.

However, my boss typically does say he is weak  :lol

Offline bosk1

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #135 on: February 24, 2017, 09:53:41 AM »
I think the overall structure of High School should be changed. First two years should be basic classes (English, Math, etc.). At some point before the end of the second year the student should be able to choose if they want to go the 4 year college path or the trade path. If kid wants to be mechanic, electrician, brick layer, etc. then get them in classes or training early rather than wasted two years prepping for something they don't have any interest in.

I think you are onto something that high schools should do a better job at preparing for the real world and not just teaching things that aren't going to help everyone.  In my high school, it was pretty much made clear that you need to go to college at any cost.  My parents pretty much beat this into my head as well, that there were no other options besides a 4 year degree.  It wasn't until I got a bit older that I realized that's so not true.  Not that I have regrets on my own education, but that there are some decent jobs out there and career paths that don't require going into debt for.  My good friend didn't go to college, he took out a loan and bought a car wash and runs it.  Been doing it for 10 years now.   Another friend became a local cop after a 2 year degree, although they did just change it that you do need a 4 year degree now to become a cop locally here.

GREAT post.  Along with this, there is something I picked up in law school that I wished I had figured out earlier, which is the concept of the "informational interview."  Which can take many different forms and levels of formality or informality, and can have a lot of different names.  But no matter what you call it, the concept is basically:  Keep your eyes open for things you want to do, and just find out who is doing them.  Once you do, just try to find a way to talk to some of those people.  Just talking to them, you can learn a lot about the realities of "a day in the life of doing [job X]" and you can see what it is really like.  And just as important, you can get the inside scoop on how to get there and someday be doing that job from someone who is in the trenches actually doing it, and you can set yourself up for success.  Had I known that earlier, I probably would have ended up in a different career, and perhaps would have taken less time and money getting there.  But still having learned it when I did, I have been able to travel a much better path than had I not. 

So to tie it back into what I posted earlier, one way to create opportunities is to simply reach out and try to talk to people who are where you think you want to be.  Worst that can happen is you either fail to navigate whatever maze to reach them, but you learn something in the process, or they say they aren't interested in talking to you.  No big loss either way.  And you move on and find the next person, until someone says yes.  And then maybe you learn that what they do is crappy or doesn't fit your interests.  GREAT!  That's a win because you learn that you probably shouldn't waste time pursuing that, and you learned it early enough to have not wasted the time.  And then you move on to the next thing.  But eventually, you get where you want to go and, in the process, have hopefully picked up some great knowledge and perhaps started building a network of people that can also potentially help you advance once you eventually get there.
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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #136 on: February 24, 2017, 10:22:39 AM »
Good post, Bosk. Anytime a younger person is talking about going to college, I always recommend taking as many community college classes as they can before going to a four year university.
My oldest daughter is doing this now.

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #137 on: February 24, 2017, 10:25:03 AM »
We just have to keep in mind that everyone is different. I know, for me, if I had gone to community college, I likely wouldn't have gone anywhere in my life.

As far as making highschool more trade oriented, also keep in mind that we can't expect every 16 year old to be able to decide what to do with the rest of their life. Did all of you guys know exactly what you wanted to do at 16? I'm getting a doctorate in Psychology right now, and I had no clue I wanted to go into this field till my sophomore year of college.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #138 on: February 24, 2017, 10:32:06 AM »
We just have to keep in mind that everyone is different. I know, for me, if I had gone to community college, I likely wouldn't have gone anywhere in my life.

And that's fine.  Again, I'm not advocating a one size fits all approach.  Merely pointing out an example that worked for me, and using that as an example of how just about anyone can find an alternative path that works for them.  But it often involves, again, sacrifice and breaking from the norm to forge a path that is somewhat different from the cookie cutter norm that a lot of people somehow think they have a right to.

Just saying:  I COULD HAVE incurred a lot of debt and done college the same was as my peers in doing so.  Or I COULD HAVE complained and hand-wrung about how "unfair" it is that the only way I could do college like my friends was to go into debt, and insist on my "right" to be like the other cool kids.  But I didn't.  I looked for alternatives and, rather than sitting on my hands, I pursued them.  And I could very well have failed.  And from a societal standpoint, that's okay if I would have.  In fact, I'd say that, from a personal standpoint, that would be okay too.  Failing would have built other valuable traits.  And even if I failed repeatedly and didn't get to live the life I hoped in the exact ways I hoped, that's fine.  My life would still have value.  But the point is, succeed or fail, the opportunity is there.  We just sometimes have to be willing to take extraordinary steps to overcome whatever hurdles our specific life situation may place in front of us.  Did I want to delay my college education four years while I toiled in the military and sometimes had bad experiences and often did things I didn't want to do?  Nope.  Did I want to live back with my parents temporarily while I was in school?  Nope.  Did I want to work as many hours at a job as I did while in school?  Nope.  Did I want to be as frugal as I had to be to keep the debt to a minimum?  Nope.  But the sacrifice got me to my goal, and more people really should get over the fact that we don't have a right to live a life free of sacrifice to get where we want to go.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 10:39:18 AM by bosk1 »
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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #139 on: February 24, 2017, 10:39:17 AM »
We just have to keep in mind that everyone is different. I know, for me, if I had gone to community college, I likely wouldn't have gone anywhere in my life.

As far as making highschool more trade oriented, also keep in mind that we can't expect every 16 year old to be able to decide what to do with the rest of their life. Did all of you guys know exactly what you wanted to do at 16? I'm getting a doctorate in Psychology right now, and I had no clue I wanted to go into this field till my sophomore year of college.

It took me until about the age of 26 to really get a grip on what direction I wanted my life to take.