Author Topic: The Fight For 15  (Read 4865 times)

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Offline Tick

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The Fight For 15
« on: February 22, 2017, 06:11:04 AM »
Fast food workers out marching in Hartford (because what else makes a difference besides walking with signs) for the "fight for 15"
Let me give you some advise and a dose of reality...
1. Crazy thought here but, acquire a skill. People with degrees are working for 15 dollars an hour because it's tough out there.
2. Realize that if this law were passed you will likely no longer make even minimum wage because there will be far less fast foods jobs to be had. So you won't have a job, period. More automation will be implemented and fewer workers with be pushed very hard to do the work of more workers. So reality is far less people will be employed. One of them may be you.
Careful what you wish for.
I do flooring sales and service and I don't get rich doing it. But that's on me. I don't march or complain to get more money. If I want to increase my income it's up to me to acquire the skill and means to make that happen.
Put down the signs and choose a path and plan to get you to where you want to be in life.
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Online Chino

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2017, 06:22:39 AM »
I don't see how what they're doing is any different than






Is coal mining a skill?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 06:30:52 AM by Chino »

Online kaos2900

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2017, 07:05:27 AM »
Sorry but your average fast food worker does not deserve $15 an hour.

Offline Stadler

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2017, 07:17:21 AM »
I generally agree with Chino, in the sense that if the fast food workers want to protest their way out of a job, it's there prerogative. 

But in terms of difference, I can see it.  What's the training or base requirements involved in being a fast food worker?   Follow printed instructions?   Be available odd hours?  Not steal from the till?   And I'm not even talking the skills that make you "good" at what you do - smiling at customers, proactively cleaning tables, etc., I'm talking about getting you in the door.

Coalminers?  Likely a physical requirement.   Likely at least an 8-hour, more likely 40-hour OSHA safety training, with refreshers every year.   Respirator fitness.   Heavy equipment licensing.   

I don't think the two are necessarily a good comparison, beyond the simple "labor has a right to protest" angle. 

I firmly believe that "$15/hour" just means we'll get our burgers from a machine that looks suspiciously like a soda pop machine, and the drive thrus will look like old school bank teller windows with the "vacuum tubes".   Who knows, some of those "protestors" may be paid for by the robotics and plant automation industries...  ;)  :) 

Online Chino

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2017, 07:19:10 AM »
Sorry but your average fast food worker does not deserve $15 an hour.

"Deserve" is extremely subjective. I'd argue that the people that just chilled on assembly lines in Detroit installing driveshafts with nothing but a high school education didn't deserve to be able to have a house, a stay at home spouse, lifelong pensions, and the ability to feed their children and send them to college without student loans.

What changed between now and then?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 07:25:41 AM by Chino »

Online Chino

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2017, 07:21:11 AM »
I firmly believe that "$15/hour" just means we'll get our burgers from a machine that looks suspiciously like a soda pop machine, and the drive thrus will look like old school bank teller windows with the "vacuum tubes".   Who knows, some of those "protestors" may be paid for by the robotics and plant automation industries...  ;)  :)

That will come regardless of what the minimum wage though. We're already seeing it at the current minimum wage, and the R&D isn't slowing down. Minimum wage could be $3 an hour, and a machine would still be cheaper (will be in the coming decade).

Online TAC

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2017, 07:22:45 AM »

"Deserve" is extremely subjective. I'd argue that the people that just chilled on an assembly lines in Detroit installing driveshafts with nothing but a high school education didn't deserve to be able to have a house, a stay at home spouse, lifelong pensions, and the ability to feed their children and send them to college without loans.

My wife and I make a decent living. And I could never dream of affording a new Buick. I'll soon be priced out of Big Macs too.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Online kaos2900

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2017, 07:32:03 AM »
Sorry but your average fast food worker does not deserve $15 an hour.

"Deserve" is extremely subjective. I'd argue that the people that just chilled on assembly lines in Detroit installing driveshafts with nothing but a high school education didn't deserve to be able to have a house, a stay at home spouse, lifelong pensions, and the ability to feed their children and send them to college without student loans.

What changed between now and then?

Oh I agree. You can thank the Auto Unions for that though.

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2017, 07:40:59 AM »
I firmly believe that "$15/hour" just means we'll get our burgers from a machine that looks suspiciously like a soda pop machine, and the drive thrus will look like old school bank teller windows with the "vacuum tubes".   Who knows, some of those "protestors" may be paid for by the robotics and plant automation industries...  ;)  :)



Took that picture in Amsterdam.  It'll be like that, no people in the store, just insert money and take food that looks disgusting  :lol

Sorry but your average fast food worker does not deserve $15 an hour.

That's how I feel having worked in fast food making $6 an hour and being happy about it.

Online TAC

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2017, 07:43:09 AM »
Wow! That's an amazing picture Cram! How were the prices, relatively?
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2017, 07:58:22 AM »
Wow! That's an amazing picture Cram! How were the prices, relatively?

You can see some of the prices in Euros in the picture.  I didn't eat there but was amazed by it to take the picture.  It was fast food prices and looked like fast food quality food.

Offline XeRocks81

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2017, 08:04:24 AM »
people who work minimum wage aren't all just kids who go to school and live at home with their parents.   A lot of hard working people depend on those jobs. 

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2017, 08:09:46 AM »
Wow! That's an amazing picture Cram! How were the prices, relatively?

You can see some of the prices in Euros in the picture.   

 :facepalm:



A Kipburger?

:neverusethis:



There are those on this forum that would love those! :lol
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Tick

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2017, 08:10:01 AM »
I don't see how what they're doing is any different than






Is coal mining a skill?
Coal mining is a hell of a lot harder then asking if you want an apple pie with your burger. They should make more because its a hard freaking job!
Yup. Tick is dead on.  She's not your type.  Move on.   Tick is Obi Wan Kenobi


Offline Stadler

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2017, 08:15:10 AM »
I firmly believe that "$15/hour" just means we'll get our burgers from a machine that looks suspiciously like a soda pop machine, and the drive thrus will look like old school bank teller windows with the "vacuum tubes".   Who knows, some of those "protestors" may be paid for by the robotics and plant automation industries...  ;)  :)

That will come regardless of what the minimum wage though. We're already seeing it at the current minimum wage, and the R&D isn't slowing down. Minimum wage could be $3 an hour, and a machine would still be cheaper (will be in the coming decade).

That's true, but it will  hasten it, and it will make it less likely that any company "opts" for the "human touch" by retaining real workers.  It will go from a choice to a requirement.   


"Deserve" is extremely subjective. I'd argue that the people that just chilled on assembly lines in Detroit installing driveshafts with nothing but a high school education didn't deserve to be able to have a house, a stay at home spouse, lifelong pensions, and the ability to feed their children and send them to college without student loans.

What changed between now and then?

They're not entirely the same; one, a good portion of the fast food industry is not comprised of family persons supporting a family.   My 19-year-old's three best friends all sling burgers (well, burgers and chikin).  Two, many of those "Detroit" workers were able to multitask into other roles - electricians, machinists, welders, etc.  What is the check out girl going to move up to?  Drive through window girl?   Three, many of those "Detroit" workers were ready, willing and able to put in two shifts, seven days a week, in order to get the rewards you mention.   The kid working after school is likely limited to  20 hours a week, and is likely simultaneously working to get into fields unrelated to "fast food".  Four, the laws are different. 
 

Offline Tick

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2017, 08:17:10 AM »
people who work minimum wage aren't all just kids who go to school and live at home with their parents.   A lot of hard working people depend on those jobs.
Jobs that they likely won't have if 15 an hour became a thing.
Less workers would be employed. Far less.

And remember folks, McDonalds is not intended to be a career (on the entry level that is)
It is a perfect way for high school kids to earn some money. College kids to help make ends meet while attending school.
Retired career people supplementing an income.

Its not a career path, so if you want 15 an hour get a skill and get a job.

If it did become law anyone working at this wage with a skill will be marching more more. I know someone who works there ass off taking care of kids with autism who does not get paid 15 an hour.
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Online TAC

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2017, 08:22:16 AM »
Tick, I'm with you on the $15 thing. But I worked with a number of people where that WAS their job. The owner operator I worked for opened a McD's near a project in New Bedford, Ma and I went to help open it. There were a number of 40 hour "part timers".
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Online Chino

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2017, 08:23:05 AM »
I don't see how what they're doing is any different than

*Snip*
Is coal mining a skill?
Coal mining is a hell of a lot harder then asking if you want an apple pie with your burger. They should make more because its a hard freaking job!

Hard how? Some people view the physical toll a job takes on your body to decide whether a job is hard, and for some like me, the mental anguish a job can cause is a much bigger factor. A coal miner works hard sure, but do you think their job is harder than a that of say an open heart surgeon? I'm currently going back and forth deciding to leave my desk job in favor of a position in asphalt because I'd rather beat my body to hell than be stuck with my thoughts all day while staring down computer screens. Working non-stop on a food production line, taking orders from a barking public who sees themselves as higher ranking or better than you would be far worse to me than digging a hole and lifting rocks all day. If you honestly think a shift at McDonalds is simply asking "would you like an apple pie with that" over and over, nothing I'm going to say is going to change your mind. I don't get fast food often. I went into a McDonald two weekends ago and those people were working like fucking dogs, much harder than I work and probably making a quarter of what I do. If you offered me $5 more an hour than I make currently to work at McDonalds, I'd happily turn it down.

Would you go work at McDonalds for 15% more than you currently make? Why or why not?

Online El Barto

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2017, 08:24:28 AM »
I can't help but think a robot could make a much better burger than some kid working the line. I'd welcome the change.

And I still can't help but chuckle at the people who insist a minimum wage is a bad thing but bitch and moan about illegal aliens doing work for cheaper than Americans will.

Lastly, as I've said all along, we need to be working towards an economy that isn't based on a population of wage slaves. We're not their yet, but we never will be if we can't shake the notion that hard work is vital to prosperity.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2017, 08:26:24 AM »
people who work minimum wage aren't all just kids who go to school and live at home with their parents.   A lot of hard working people depend on those jobs.

well then this may sound harsh but it's the truth....if you're banking on a fast food job as your 'career' then that's the problem. Fast Food jobs are for junior high/high school kids and maybe some folks to get back on their feet. Unless you're highly motivated and shoot for managing or franchising.....those jobs aren't there to support 'families'.

There has never been a greater time to obtain an education, scholarships and grants for that education....skills etc etc. I'm sorry, but there really is nothing but 'excuses' to keep you from succeeding in America today. Everyone and their mother has an 'excuse' as to why they 'can't......I know I could list off at least five great excuses for me to be a deadbeat right now and 'society' would understand. But I personally chose not to sit on those excuses and prove them wrong.

This is a question of work ethic and a generational gap. I was taught to work hard and you'll be rewarded with raises, promotions etc. And I have, my whole life. This wave of workers that are demanding $15 an hour just 'want' $15 an hour without proving or working for it. Perfect example:

My brother is the warehouse manger of our warehouse. He has (3) Truck Drivers under him, one of which is a 27 year old Father of 2 who decided that he didn't like working as a mechanic any longer because of the hours and it was tough work. He was making $25 as a mechanic. He was hired as a truck driver making $12.80 an hour and my brother says ALL he does is whine and cry about ONLY making $12.80 an hour.

First off, his salary per hour wasn't a secret....he knew what the starting wage was so why take the job in the first place if you're going to whine about it? Second, if you NEED the job but disagree with the amount, then get in the position and bust your ass to get raises/promotions. But no, he tells my brother he will work harder AFTER he gets more money.  :lol   And that is the difference IMO. There are a group of people out there that bust their ass and work to get raises/promotions and there are people out there that want things handed to them without working for it. This $15 demand for fast food work is nothing but wanting more money without doing anything for it. You can try to spin it in any direction you want but that is what it is. It's a fast food job folks....not a career.
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Offline Podaar

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2017, 08:28:04 AM »
To me, this topic is more of a Fogey issue than anything else. $15.00/hour seems a lot to us because minimum wage in 1980 was $3.10/hour (plus or minus, depending on what State you lived in). Now that seems like a big jump until you adjust it for inflation when $15.00 calculates to $4.77. So, yes, comparatively speaking that's a decent increase but not as outrageous as it first appears.

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2017, 08:29:14 AM »


Lastly, as I've said all along, we need to be working towards an economy that isn't based on a population of wage slaves. We're not their yet, but we never will be if we can't shake the notion that hard work is vital to prosperity.

I confused. What? Not sure if there's a double negative I'm missing. What are you saying?


To me, this topic is more of a Fogey issue 
:lol

This made me laugh.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Tick

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2017, 08:29:36 AM »
I don't see how what they're doing is any different than

*Snip*
Is coal mining a skill?
Coal mining is a hell of a lot harder then asking if you want an apple pie with your burger. They should make more because its a hard freaking job!

Hard how? Some people view the physical toll a job takes on your body to decide whether a job is hard, and for some like me, the mental anguish a job can cause is a much bigger factor. A coal miner works hard sure, but do you think their job is harder than a that of say an open heart surgeon? I'm currently going back and forth deciding to leave my desk job in favor of a position in asphalt because I'd rather beat my body to hell than be stuck with my thoughts all day while staring down computer screens. Working non-stop on a food production line, taking orders from a barking public who sees themselves as higher ranking or better than you would be far worse to me than digging a hole and lifting rocks all day. If you honestly think a shift at McDonalds is simply asking "would you like an apple pie with that" over and over, nothing I'm going to say is going to change your mind. I don't get fast food often. I went into a McDonald two weekends ago and those people were working like fucking dogs, much harder than I work and probably making a quarter of what I do. If you offered me $5 more an hour than I make currently to work at McDonalds, I'd happily turn it down.

Would you go work at McDonalds for 15% more than you currently make? Why or why not?
I've been on both sides. Sitting at a desk job is very stressful at times (a lot of times) but I installed carpet for 20 years and it beat the living shit out of me.

And I worked as a customer serve rep at Lowe's for a year so I know full well what it entails. So I need not be convinced of anything. I got shit pay and I hated working there.
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Online cramx3

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2017, 08:31:51 AM »
To me, this topic is more of a Fogey issue than anything else. $15.00/hour seems a lot to us because minimum wage in 1980 was $3.10/hour (plus or minus, depending on what State you lived in). Now that seems like a big jump until you adjust it for inflation when $15.00 calculates to $4.77. So, yes, comparatively speaking that's a decent increase but not as outrageous as it first appears.

But what is the number 15 based on?  I don't understand where 15 comes from.

And essentially I agree with Gmiller.  There's also a problem with our entitlement society.

Offline Podaar

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2017, 08:34:35 AM »
It's probably a living wage calculation. The last living wage rate I saw for my State (Utah) was $12.30. It seems reasonable that it would be higher in Connecticut.

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2017, 08:40:00 AM »
I don't see how what they're doing is any different than

*Snip*
Is coal mining a skill?
Coal mining is a hell of a lot harder then asking if you want an apple pie with your burger. They should make more because its a hard freaking job!

Hard how? Some people view the physical toll a job takes on your body to decide whether a job is hard, and for some like me, the mental anguish a job can cause is a much bigger factor. A coal miner works hard sure, but do you think their job is harder than a that of say an open heart surgeon? I'm currently going back and forth deciding to leave my desk job in favor of a position in asphalt because I'd rather beat my body to hell than be stuck with my thoughts all day while staring down computer screens. Working non-stop on a food production line, taking orders from a barking public who sees themselves as higher ranking or better than you would be far worse to me than digging a hole and lifting rocks all day. If you honestly think a shift at McDonalds is simply asking "would you like an apple pie with that" over and over, nothing I'm going to say is going to change your mind. I don't get fast food often. I went into a McDonald two weekends ago and those people were working like fucking dogs, much harder than I work and probably making a quarter of what I do. If you offered me $5 more an hour than I make currently to work at McDonalds, I'd happily turn it down.

Would you go work at McDonalds for 15% more than you currently make? Why or why not?

Basically it comes down to being a subjective issue as to what different individuals feel like is deserving of more money.  And I feel the same way as you - if I was offered $5 more an hour than I get now, to go back to working in the foodservice industry, I would happily say "no fucking way".

Offline Podaar

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2017, 08:41:21 AM »
To me, this topic is more of a Fogey issue 
:lol

This made me laugh.

I know, right?  :lol

I get my coffee from a local roaster who's main business is just in roasting and selling beans. Still, he does have a counter where they make drinks and sell donuts. There is a small sitting area with about six tables that every morning are crowded with gray-beards and blue-hairs sitting around bitching about how spoiled and entitled the baby-boomers (my generation are). It's laughable. Just like this thread.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2017, 08:45:30 AM »
It's laughable. Just like this thread.

If you want a real good laugh you should check out the 'Trumps First 100 Days' thread....
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Online Chino

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2017, 08:48:48 AM »
It's laughable. Just like this thread.

If you want a real good laugh you should check out the 'Trumps First 100 Days' thread....

Can we all knock it off with these posts (both of you)? They contribute nothing. I'd prefer to not have P/R closed again due to it devolving into shit slinging. 

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2017, 08:49:29 AM »


Lastly, as I've said all along, we need to be working towards an economy that isn't based on a population of wage slaves. We're not their yet, but we never will be if we can't shake the notion that hard work is vital to prosperity.

I confused. What? Not sure if there's a double negative I'm missing. What are you saying?
I'm saying that this guy is America's biggest asshole.  We should be trying to approach things from that standpoint of having to work less rather than fetishizing hard work.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2017, 08:53:58 AM »
It's laughable. Just like this thread.

If you want a real good laugh you should check out the 'Trumps First 100 Days' thread....

Can we all knock it off with these posts (both of you)? They contribute nothing. I'd prefer to not have P/R closed again due to it devolving into shit slinging.


 :lol   I was just messing around with Gregg. I'm pretty sure he knows that. Certainly wasn't 'slinging shit' at him. If there was anything that was going to get P/R closed again it wouldn't be those two comments.....you've read through the other threads right?
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Offline Podaar

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2017, 08:57:07 AM »
Noted, Chino. My apologies. I, once again, failed at trying to inject some humor. I keep forgetting that only I think I'm funny.

Gary, I took your comment in the way it was intended. :hug:

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2017, 09:00:00 AM »
I keep forgetting that only I think I'm funny.

story of my life  :lol
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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2017, 09:02:38 AM »


Lastly, as I've said all along, we need to be working towards an economy that isn't based on a population of wage slaves. We're not their yet, but we never will be if we can't shake the notion that hard work is vital to prosperity.

I confused. What? Not sure if there's a double negative I'm missing. What are you saying?
I'm saying that this guy is America's biggest asshole.  We should be trying to approach things from that standpoint of having to work less rather than fetishizing hard work.

Well, how is that done. I'm still lost. Not being a wise ass, I'm trying to understand what you are saying and how we get there.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Re: The Fight For 15
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2017, 09:27:01 AM »


Lastly, as I've said all along, we need to be working towards an economy that isn't based on a population of wage slaves. We're not their yet, but we never will be if we can't shake the notion that hard work is vital to prosperity.

I confused. What? Not sure if there's a double negative I'm missing. What are you saying?
I'm saying that this guy is America's biggest asshole.  We should be trying to approach things from that standpoint of having to work less rather than fetishizing hard work.

Well, how is that done. I'm still lost. Not being a wise ass, I'm trying to understand what you are saying and how we get there.
Like I said, we're not there yet, but we should be preparing for and working towards a post-scarcity world. I don't think there are any practical changes we can make now, we still need to eat and have access to goods and services, but we can stop glorifying hard work and start to approach it as a necessary evil for the time being. I don't see this country as capable of making that change, however. It's simply incompatible with our breed of capitalism.

The bottom line is that I'm not smart enough to figure out how to move forward. I am smart enough to recognize that our current attitude "we have to bring coal mining jobs back to make America great again!" isn't the answer. Whether or not a McDonalds worker should make a living wage runs parallel to this problem. And quite frankly, reflects pretty poorly on us that we have to debate the matter.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson