Author Topic: Amazing MM solo from Guitar Center Drum Off 2016 (pro shot)  (Read 1398 times)

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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Amazing MM solo from Guitar Center Drum Off 2016 (pro shot)
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2017, 08:52:31 AM »
Ark - Burn the Sun is a great example of Johnny Mac's drumming. The album oozes in groove and there's a lot of polyryhtms going on.

Agree that that album has lots of groovy drumming. But isn't that also a large part because the songs themselves as arranged, especially the riffing, are groovy?

Listen to Mangini in Extreme's Hip Today and No Respect. Or in Tribe of Judah's Exit Elvis album. Or more recently, the extended outro of Take The Time in this tour. Doesn't he groove in these songs? In the DT studio albums that he is in, what songs even come close to being arranged with such feel and groove where Mangini can unleash the drumming he used in his Extreme days?

Offline Bertielee

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Re: Amazing MM solo from Guitar Center Drum Off 2016 (pro shot)
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2017, 09:08:34 AM »
Ark - Burn the Sun is a great example of Johnny Mac's drumming. The album oozes in groove and there's a lot of polyryhtms going on.

Agree that that album has lots of groovy drumming. But isn't that also a large part because the songs themselves as arranged, especially the riffing, are groovy?

Listen to Mangini in Extreme's Hip Today and No Respect. Or in Tribe of Judah's Exit Elvis album. Or more recently, the extended outro of Take The Time in this tour. Doesn't he groove in these songs? In the DT studio albums that he is in, what songs even come close to being arranged with such feel and groove where Mangini can unleash the drumming he used in his Extreme days?

Hey, all in all, DT songs are not really groovy in themselves, but MP has always managed, one way or another, to make his drumming groovy (not in every song, I agree). As far as Johnny Mac goes, just listen to his solo album or to the Unwritten Pages album he played on, there are songs that are not particularly groovy and yet, he manages to make his drumming sound groovy. What I'm hinting at is that we don't feel it the same way and it's good, otherwise the world would be really boring.

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« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 09:25:22 AM by Bertielee »
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Offline Peace and Love

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Re: Amazing MM solo from Guitar Center Drum Off 2016 (pro shot)
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2017, 09:27:16 AM »
I went back and listened to 4 versions of Hell's Kitchen:

1) Studio

2) Live in 2002

3) First night in 2017

4) The video posted a little while ago, from last Friday.

The differences in drumming cannot be put down to cymbal playing only - it's certainly not as simple a case as "the drumming is very similar except for the cymbals. Swap the cymbal-playing style, and it would be quite alike".

There are (to me) undeniable differences in approach, swing, "groove", and looseness/stiffness. Both MP's and MM's approaches are creatively "valid". Neither is wrong or in poor taste.

But in my opinion, I vastly prefer MP's approach and find that it suits the composition much much better. MM's version to me doesn't blend with the rest of the song, and actually significantly decreased my enjoyment of the song.

This is one of the very few cases where I have felt this way about his interpretation of DT's music. Most of the time, I find it to be good enough, or even in some cases, enhancing the original composition. But in this case - and I mean no disrespect at all - I am not enjoying his interpretation at all.

I also feel that it is true that his style in DT is on the whole "stiff". In songs like Hell's Kitchen, Surrounded, Count of Tuscany, I feel he could play much looser and suit the song better. I don't know why he plays this way - because in the past he has demonstrated plenty of groove in other bands/situations.

But I do respect his right and privilege to interpret the material according to his taste. And I assert my right to respectfully state my opinions as I have.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Amazing MM solo from Guitar Center Drum Off 2016 (pro shot)
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2017, 09:48:29 AM »
But in my opinion, I vastly prefer MP's approach and find that it suits the composition much much better. MM's version to me doesn't blend with the rest of the song, and actually significantly decreased my enjoyment of the song.

This is one of the very few cases where I have felt this way about his interpretation of DT's music. Most of the time, I find it to be good enough, or even in some cases, enhancing the original composition. But in this case - and I mean no disrespect at all - I am not enjoying his interpretation at all.
Fair enough.  I know that, for me, I've never liked the song anyway, so I'm not sure my enjoyment of it actually could be decreased.  But what you said actually has me curious and makes me want to go back and listen to those four versions as you did, so I think I'll do that.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Amazing MM solo from Guitar Center Drum Off 2016 (pro shot)
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2017, 10:21:06 AM »

EDIT: This video was taken last Friday. It still does not have the trademark hi-hat in the original MP version. But it has shaken off a lot of the stiffness that we heard in the vids of the first coupld of nights. The bass drum is so Mangini and the fills are very confident.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gYZBj2mSssQ

Interesting you bring up this video, because I actually think it illustrates what I'm talking about.

To me, the big overarching compositional theme of HK is that it is a really slow buildup. At the beginning it's only guitar and bass doing random notes here and there, and at some point the drums come in with this very laid back, careless shuffle. And over time the hitting gets harder, the hihats open up, and then finally HK explodes in this orgasmic release of shredding. That's what, for me, is what HK is about.

Now compare that to the videoyou linked. The moment MM comes in, he is playing 16ths on a semi-open hihat. From there on, instead of slowly building up, the dynamic stays flat, because as Nigel Tufnel wisely said "you're at 10, where can you go from here? Nowhere!"

That's IMHO what MM needs to work on, to get subtlety and dynamics back into his playing. It's the single biggest thing I can point to on the last three albums that left me cold about his otherwise incredibly impressive display of skill.
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Online Kotowboy

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Re: Amazing MM solo from Guitar Center Drum Off 2016 (pro shot)
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2017, 11:03:08 AM »
Yep. Just watched the video.

His dynamics don't alter for the entire song.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Amazing MM solo from Guitar Center Drum Off 2016 (pro shot)
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2017, 11:20:12 AM »
Before the argument gets made that it is a YouTube artifact, Losing Faythe on TA has exactly the same problem. It's supposed to be a buildup, but the drums come in crazy hard during the quiet section. When "Gabriel my son..." comes around, I.e. the epic conclusion to the song, the drums (arguably) should follow the other instruments in getting louder and more dramatic, but if you actually compare beginning and end of the song, it's the same dynamic throughout. I mean, you can hear he tries at the beginning of the song to be softer, but whether because of the mix or his own playing (at this point I tend towards the latter), it's already really hard sounding.
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Re: Amazing MM solo from Guitar Center Drum Off 2016 (pro shot)
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2017, 12:28:27 PM »
His playing in the verses of Breaking All Illusions ( CD ) is pretty soft.

I wonder if he changed his playing style since ADTOE.

Offline jakepriest

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Re: Amazing MM solo from Guitar Center Drum Off 2016 (pro shot)
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2017, 01:07:28 PM »
You need to knock off those types of comments.  Aside from being completely asinine, that is nowhere in the neighborhood of respectful or constructive, and as such, it violates forum rules.

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Online lucasembarbosa

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Re: Amazing MM solo from Guitar Center Drum Off 2016 (pro shot)
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2017, 01:07:45 PM »
His playing in the verses of Breaking All Illusions ( CD ) is pretty soft.

I wonder if he changed his playing style since ADTOE.

Same for This Is The Life, lots of ghost notes in there...

The lack of dynamics in the hihats during HK really, really bothers me.

Offline Bertielee

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Re: Amazing MM solo from Guitar Center Drum Off 2016 (pro shot)
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2017, 02:04:24 PM »
His playing in the verses of Breaking All Illusions ( CD ) is pretty soft.

I wonder if he changed his playing style since ADTOE.

Yeah, I wonder what happened as well.

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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Amazing MM solo from Guitar Center Drum Off 2016 (pro shot)
« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2017, 03:36:19 PM »

EDIT: This video was taken last Friday. It still does not have the trademark hi-hat in the original MP version. But it has shaken off a lot of the stiffness that we heard in the vids of the first coupld of nights. The bass drum is so Mangini and the fills are very confident.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gYZBj2mSssQ

Interesting you bring up this video, because I actually think it illustrates what I'm talking about.

To me, the big overarching compositional theme of HK is that it is a really slow buildup. At the beginning it's only guitar and bass doing random notes here and there, and at some point the drums come in with this very laid back, careless shuffle. And over time the hitting gets harder, the hihats open up, and then finally HK explodes in this orgasmic release of shredding. That's what, for me, is what HK is about.

Now compare that to the videoyou linked. The moment MM comes in, he is playing 16ths on a semi-open hihat. From there on, instead of slowly building up, the dynamic stays flat, because as Nigel Tufnel wisely said "you're at 10, where can you go from here? Nowhere!"

That's IMHO what MM needs to work on, to get subtlety and dynamics back into his playing. It's the single biggest thing I can point to on the last three albums that left me cold about his otherwise incredibly impressive display of skill.

See, my problem when discussing with you is that you shift from one argument to another. I was talking about groove in polyrhythmic drumming in a drum solo, then you bring up MM can't play a simple groove in HK. I show a vid that MM can play a simple groove in HK, then suddenly your argument is about MM not changing dynamics in the course of the song. So you're argument is really about dynamics?

I have a simple exercise. Listen to the original HK and focus on the snare. The snare alone nothing else. Does the snare change volume over the course of the song? Except for one small section where MP was hitting some sort of build up, no, the snare volume is practically the same all throughout. The buildup in the drumming in HK is in the busyness. The drums get busier and busier as the song progresses which creates this effect of a build up.

Now, let's go back to the MM vid. Was he hitting lots of crashes right at the start? No. Was he playing with the ride from the get go? No. Was he doing syncopated hits from the start? No. Was his bass drum playing fast and busy at the start? No. So overall, was the drumming in terms of busyness the same from start to finish the same? No.

You may not like how he is approaching the material, that's fine.  Matter of taste. But to say that the drunming in HK is 10 from the start and does not change throughout the song? That's like typing a templated criticism without actually listening to the material.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Amazing MM solo from Guitar Center Drum Off 2016 (pro shot)
« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2017, 03:39:24 PM »
I can only account for what I hear. I feel he breaks into HK like the Kool Aid man, with a loud, and stiff drum beat. That may not even be so, but my ear tells me such. That's all I can say.

EDIT: And just as a point of comparison, check out this rendition, starting from 5:00 on:

https://youtu.be/wG7R-tVIw9Q

What exactly MP is playing is irrelevant, but the effect is important. He starts out with an easygoing, light beat, then gets increasingly more busy, and then switches to full blow. That's the dynamic I'm talking about, and what's missing in current HK.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 03:54:28 PM by rumborak »
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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Amazing MM solo from Guitar Center Drum Off 2016 (pro shot)
« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2017, 04:04:29 PM »
So MM started at full blow in the latest HK vid?

Offline rumborak

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Re: Amazing MM solo from Guitar Center Drum Off 2016 (pro shot)
« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2017, 04:28:45 PM »
To my ear, essentially, yes. Maybe started at 90%, and then brought it to 100% at the end.

I have said it before, I am not a drum aficionado. I essentially need the Tabasco sauce of drumming, and that includes starting at 20% and ramping it up to 100%. When the dynamic range is operating in the 5% range, I just don't hear it.
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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Amazing MM solo from Guitar Center Drum Off 2016 (pro shot)
« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2017, 05:03:32 PM »
So when you use the term dynamic range, which you like to throw a lot, are you referring to loudness? Because I would argue again that if you listen to original HK, the bootleg you shared and this good audio bootleg:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zt5s1YiivhU

the one thing constant in the whole song, the snare, does not really go up in volume. It's the business of the cymbals and bass that create that effect.

Offline Sycsa

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Re: Amazing MM solo from Guitar Center Drum Off 2016 (pro shot)
« Reply #51 on: February 22, 2017, 05:22:20 PM »
Comparing these videos, I don't think that the snare is the key element here. For me, the most obvious difference is in the hi-hat playing. MP's playing is more nuanced, he mixes it up, leaves some holes here and there, and yes, he plays around more with dynamics. MM's hi-hat playing is like a straight up metronome here.

PSMS also played it nicely, damn, when that B3 cuts in at 3:40: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9uMr5HIhQM
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 05:32:13 PM by Sycsa »
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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Amazing MM solo from Guitar Center Drum Off 2016 (pro shot)
« Reply #52 on: February 22, 2017, 05:30:17 PM »
Exactly. Which is why I treat the hi-hat criticisms as legit. Criticisms on dynamics though I really do not agree with because there really is not much change in volume throughout the song.

Offline Sycsa

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Re: Amazing MM solo from Guitar Center Drum Off 2016 (pro shot)
« Reply #53 on: February 22, 2017, 05:36:05 PM »
Exactly. Which is why I treat the hi-hat criticisms as legit. Criticisms on dynamics though I really do not agree with because there really is not much change in volume throughout the song.
Isn't the hi-hat criticism intertwined with dynamics? Since he plays them with no dynamics.

edit: I get that you were talking about the song as a whole, and MM did build it up, but he also started right out with that stiff and loud hi-hat playing. Just because of that, MP's version will seem infinitely more dynamic by comparison, even if the real difference isn't that significant. I'd say that in this case, it's not the dynamic changes throughout the whole song what counts, but the dynamic variation between each hit, and that's where MP seems lively and MM stiff.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 05:48:51 PM by Sycsa »
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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Amazing MM solo from Guitar Center Drum Off 2016 (pro shot)
« Reply #54 on: February 22, 2017, 06:44:02 PM »
The approach of the two drummers are different. MP played it unevenly, interspersing opening and cloaing hi-hats with the rides and some syncopated beats to make the song breathe. MM on the other hand played it sectionally, starting out with a very basic hi-hat then building up to a more intricate ride then putting in syncopation later.

I prefer MP's approach, but I think MM also has a good idea of not showing all your variations early on in the song. So if the two approaches are combined, that would be the best.

EDIT: In the first bars, was MM hitting the closing hi-hat accent with his snare hand while his other hand maintains the basic metronome hi-hat hits?

Also, there may not be a lot of nuances in the hi-hat playing of MM, but in typical Mangini fashion, there are lots of variations in his bass drums.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 07:22:15 PM by erwinrafael »