Author Topic: 2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty  (Read 3434 times)

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Offline PowerSlave

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Re: 2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2017, 10:52:29 PM »
I grew up watching Montana.  Not to take anything away from him, but there is nothing I saw him do that I haven't seen Brady do.  And Brady has done more of it.  And Joe's last couple of seasons, it was obvious he was in the twilight of his career.  Not saying he was bad by any stretch.  But you could tell he was almost done.  With Brady, I'm not seeing anything indicating he is near the end.  I think, all told, he will play longer than Montana, and he could easily win another SB or two in that time.

In response this, I dump Kev's quote;


 The Patriots lack of Hall of Famers, when it is all said and done, will make it hard to put them ahead of those two dynasties.  I think this run says more about Belichick and Brady than anything else.


So to combine this all; sure, JM could have won more. But his teams were also much more stacked by comparison. The closet thing Brady had to a lot of those SF teams IMO was 2007's 18-1. And Brady pretty much blew the doors off that year. Looking at the numbers, JM's teams more often than not were top 5 in offense and defense, if not one or two ranked. And that includes years he did not make the SB.

Also consider that a QB (Young) who I could debate is nearly as good only won one more SB, with the teams JM would have had.

I understand the argument certain players had/have more weapons to work with, so their accomplishments may not shine as brightly as someone that has less to work with. I don't really agree with it, though. I do have a bias, however. My favorite team has benefited from a glut of Hall of Fame talent in the Super Bowl era, so my view on the subject might be tainted.

I'm usually of the mind-set that a lot of times legendary players that play with other great/legendary players often play a big role in making each other great.(Terrible sentence, but I couldn't think of a better way to word it) To put it another way, lone legends/hall of fame players without a significant teammate is a rare occurrence. Guys like Dick Butkus just don't happen too often. This might come off sounding like an argument in Tom's favor, but it's intended to be an argument not to hold the success of others against Joe.

And don't get me wrong, if I had to make a list, Tom is firmly entrenched at #2. I just thought that there was something "other worldly" special about Joe.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: 2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2017, 08:27:33 AM »
Joe's other-worldly quality, at least I always thought, was his coolness under pressure. Dude seemed to have ice in his veins. After the SB comeback I think we all saw that Brady is just as unflappable.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: 2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2017, 08:30:43 AM »
Joe's other-worldly quality, at least I always thought, was his coolness under pressure. Dude seemed to have ice in his veins. After the SB comeback I think we all saw that Brady is just as unflappable.

And I love that; Montana used to have that little smirk on his face and it seemed to glow a little bigger as the game wore on.  Growing up a Giant fan, I was used to QBs with that "deer in headlights" look, and it was common to see the pressure fold a QB like a tin can.   So it's a trait I respect a lot now as I'm older, and I think Brady and Montana both had/have it (Rodgers, Bradshaw and Stabler too).   As successful as he is, I look at a Joe Flacco, and he always looks scared under center.  McNabb was like that, as is Rivers now. 

Offline KevShmev

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Re: 2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2017, 05:40:05 PM »
A friend and I were talking the other day about who'd we put in the NFL all-time top 5.  It's hard to put anyone pre-1980 in there for me since I never saw those guys play, but I think my top 5 is pretty stellar (listed alphabetically):

Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Joe Montana
Jerry Rice
Lawrence Taylor

It was tough not putting a RB up there, but of Jim Brown, Barry Sanders and Walter Payton, I couldn't decide which one I would put highest.

Offline bosk1

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Re: 2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2017, 05:43:28 PM »
Yeah, I like your top 4.  And I don't dislike including LT, but just feel like there is someone else that could be up there ahead of him.  But still, can't really argue too much with any of those choices.
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Offline PowerSlave

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Re: 2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2017, 06:44:59 PM »

It was tough not putting a RB up there, but of Jim Brown, Barry Sanders and Walter Payton, I couldn't decide which one I would put highest.

I would probably lean towards Barry Sanders, but there's no clear choice between those 3 players. All of them are deserving of all the praise that they get.
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Offline TheCountOfNYC

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Re: 2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2017, 07:27:48 PM »

It was tough not putting a RB up there, but of Jim Brown, Barry Sanders and Walter Payton, I couldn't decide which one I would put highest.

I would probably lean towards Barry Sanders, but there's no clear choice between those 3 players. All of them are deserving of all the praise that they get.

What about Emmitt Smith?

Offline PowerSlave

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Re: 2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2017, 07:35:11 PM »

It was tough not putting a RB up there, but of Jim Brown, Barry Sanders and Walter Payton, I couldn't decide which one I would put highest.

I would probably lean towards Barry Sanders, but there's no clear choice between those 3 players. All of them are deserving of all the praise that they get.

What about Emmitt Smith?

Great player that deserves to be in the conversation, but I think the other 3 were better or more unique. In fact, purely from a great player aspect, OJ Simpson should be mentioned as well. I think that he's a horrible human being, but for a time he was easily one of the greatest RB's of all time.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: 2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty
« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2017, 08:10:32 PM »
In fact, purely from a great player aspect, OJ Simpson should be mentioned as well.... for a time he was easily one of the greatest RB's of all time.

Those seasons, while amazing, were only a couple in number. His overall career doesn't measure up to other RBs.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/o-j-s-football-fame-was-mostly-based-on-two-great-nfl-seasons/?addata=espn:nfl:index
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Offline PowerSlave

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Re: 2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty
« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2017, 08:34:12 PM »
In fact, purely from a great player aspect, OJ Simpson should be mentioned as well.... for a time he was easily one of the greatest RB's of all time.

Those seasons, while amazing, were only a couple in number. His overall career doesn't measure up to other RBs.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/o-j-s-football-fame-was-mostly-based-on-two-great-nfl-seasons/?addata=espn:nfl:index

True, but can you imagine 2,000+ yards in only 14 games? I find that simply amazing, and he did lead the league in rushing several times. The guy had a ton of talent on an absolutely terrible team.
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Re: 2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty
« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2017, 11:11:45 PM »
Yeah, people seem to gloss over the fact that his 2003 yards in 14 games is a clip for 2289 in 16 games. Considering how he was doing it in the brutal cold of Buffalo for at least 3 or 4 of those games there's no reasonable argument to say he wouldn't have easily gotten to at least 2200 yards if afforded those two extra games.

Similarly, for all the dicksuckery people bestow upon Jerry Rice (deservedly so), they really fuck him over royally by just acting like Randy Moss' 23 TDs is the new record without any regard for qualifying the argument by mentioning how Rice got his 22 in 1987 in just 12 games with 0 missed games by any fault of his own (injury, suspension, etc.) due to the non-scab players playing only 12 games that year due to the canceled week and 3 replacement games. At that clip he'd have had 29 TDs in a 16 game season and at the very least easily gotten the 24 TDs necessary to still be the record holder.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: 2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2017, 08:18:59 AM »
Yeah, I like your top 4.  And I don't dislike including LT, but just feel like there is someone else that could be up there ahead of him.  But still, can't really argue too much with any of those choices.


Not arguing with you, exactly, but that is the era in which I grew up.  I don't think people quite realize how he changed the game.   I can remember seeing the L.A. Kings (with Gretzky) play the Hartford Whalers (my team at the time) and being MESMERIZED by his play.  He was literally playing a different game.   At times (and it happened more than once) I would be watching - and be aware that I played competitive hockey into college, so I know the game at least more than as a beginner - and I'd be like "what the hell is he doing??"; he'd be off in the corner, or he'd be trailing the play and seemingly out of the mix, and seconds later he's standing there, 10 feet in front of Peter Sidorkiewicz with the puck, making him look silly (the Great One had a goal and three assists, for a team that was mired in a slump at the time).   It was hockey at a totally different level.

LT was the same way.  Even Belichick has said he's the greatest player he's ever coached (though also "greatest DEFENSIVE player he's ever coached", and "the greatest defensive player in history").  Think about that for a second.   Bill Walsh - no slouch as a coach - devised an entirely new offensive set (basically a two-tight end set) to block him, because the old way - picking up a linebacker with a running back - was laughably ineffective.

Parcells even changed his coaching style for him.  It's legend that Parcells rode Phil Simms as hard as he could to get him to excel - to the point that Simms hated him and considered quitting football - whereas he let LT have a loose leash (allegedly doing coke and cavorting with hookers, even on nights before games).   

LT belongs in that top five, for sure. 

Offline bosk1

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Re: 2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2017, 08:23:00 AM »
Oh, I know.  I grew up watching him too.  If there is a singular reason why we are still having the Montana/Brady debate, it's because LT kept Joe from getting ring #5!  :lol
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Offline Stadler

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Re: 2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty
« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2017, 08:34:35 AM »
Oh, I know.  I grew up watching him too.  If there is a singular reason why we are still having the Montana/Brady debate, it's because LT kept Joe from getting ring #5!  :lol

There's some truth to that; those 49er Giant games were legendary.  Both of Parcell's Giant Super Bowls went through San Francisco, the second being a 15-13 Championship game that was probably better than the Super Bowl (at least for Scott Norwood it was).   Giants didn't score a touchdown in that game, and were down 13-12 without the ball when LT - go figure - recovered a fumble to set up the game winning field goal.   

Offline El Barto

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Re: 2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty
« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2017, 01:11:46 PM »
I try to look at top players as those that really changed the game with their presence, both at the micro and macro level. LT absolutely did that. What do you do when your gameplan falls apart because this coked-up madman is beating you single-handed? Peyton did the same thing. No matter what defense you're planning to use he'll probably find a way to exploit it. Jerry Rice certainly did just with pure skill, but I think a lot of other receivers can claim that. How man times did Moss or Owens set out to take a game over? OBJr seems like he might get to that level. Was there a DB so scary that he shut off half the passing game before Deion Sanders? (real question, not rhetorical) These are always the sorts of guys I look at, and they're not necessarily the normal guys on the lists.
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Offline PowerSlave

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Re: 2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty
« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2017, 03:24:33 PM »
Was there a DB so scary that he shut off half the passing game before Deion Sanders? (real question, not rhetorical) These are always the sorts of guys I look at, and they're not necessarily the normal guys on the lists.

Rod Woodson was a year or two before Deion I think. Darrel Green for the Redskins in the 80's and part of the 90's. Mel Blount, Dick "Night Train" Lane...You can find dominant players at each position in each era.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: 2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty
« Reply #51 on: February 15, 2017, 03:28:41 PM »
I don't think any of those guys were the same as Sanders.

Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline kingshmegland

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Re: 2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty
« Reply #52 on: February 15, 2017, 03:41:52 PM »
Revis for 6 years was deadly.  No one wanted to pass his way.
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Offline PowerSlave

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Re: 2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty
« Reply #53 on: February 15, 2017, 03:43:15 PM »
I don't think any of those guys were the same as Sanders.

Woodson was a better tackler, and much better in run support. His pass coverage abilities weren't as good, but he was elite.

Blount was the DS of his day.

Yes, I'm showing my steelers bias, but there's plenty of evidence to back up my claims.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: 2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty
« Reply #54 on: February 15, 2017, 04:43:01 PM »

Blount was the DS of his day.
Being named NFL MVP as a DB is pretty damned impressive. They played in different eras, though. I don't think either could do what the other did. In the end it just seems like Deion was the first to take your star receiver completely out of the game by his mere presence.
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Offline CableX

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Re: 2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty
« Reply #55 on: February 15, 2017, 05:29:43 PM »
Yeah, people seem to gloss over the fact that his 2003 yards in 14 games is a clip for 2289 in 16 games. Considering how he was doing it in the brutal cold of Buffalo for at least 3 or 4 of those games there's no reasonable argument to say he wouldn't have easily gotten to at least 2200 yards if afforded those two extra games.

Similarly, for all the dicksuckery people bestow upon Jerry Rice (deservedly so), they really fuck him over royally by just acting like Randy Moss' 23 TDs is the new record without any regard for qualifying the argument by mentioning how Rice got his 22 in 1987 in just 12 games with 0 missed games by any fault of his own (injury, suspension, etc.) due to the non-scab players playing only 12 games that year due to the canceled week and 3 replacement games. At that clip he'd have had 29 TDs in a 16 game season and at the very least easily gotten the 24 TDs necessary to still be the record holder.


You left out the other part of Rice's year Black Floyd; Rice did 22 TDs in 65 catches.  :eek :eek :eek  Just wanted to tack that on, as having the highest total is one thing. How Rice did it was something else.
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Offline PowerSlave

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Re: 2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty
« Reply #56 on: February 15, 2017, 05:46:49 PM »

Blount was the DS of his day.
Being named NFL MVP as a DB is pretty damned impressive. They played in different eras, though. I don't think either could do what the other did. In the end it just seems like Deion was the first to take your star receiver completely out of the game by his mere presence.

http://www.steelers.com/news/article-1/Blount-brought-about-NFL-rule-change/ec9172a9-2663-4bf3-b7b0-9d2f47560bbe

The NFL changed the rules because of him. And don't get me wrong, DS is the greatest cover corner to ever play the game. I'm of the opinion that those other players that I mentioned are very important to the history of the position as well.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: 2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty
« Reply #57 on: February 16, 2017, 06:16:25 AM »
I don't think any of those guys were the same as Sanders.

Agreed, and he's no Beasley Reece. 

Offline Dream Team

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Re: 2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty
« Reply #58 on: February 16, 2017, 08:56:51 AM »
Consensus used to be that Jim Brown had to be included in a "greatest players" list. Not sure if that is still the current thinking.

Offline contest_sanity

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Re: 2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty
« Reply #59 on: February 16, 2017, 11:46:09 AM »
Glad I checked this thread because it reminded me to cancel my NFL gamepass trial before I got charged for it later tonight. I had such Super Bowl hangover depression (Falcons fan here) that I wanted to watch the All-22.

Yeah, that didn't really make me feel any better...

Particularly such things like how on the strip-sack MR was another second away from uncorking a deep bomb to a receiver running by everyone.

Oh well. While I've kind of made my peace with it now, it does suck to have supplanted "Warriors 3-1" as the new all-time sports meme for choking.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: 2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty
« Reply #60 on: February 16, 2017, 12:14:42 PM »
I think the '92 Houston Oilers and '04 Yankees are still 1a and 1b for biggest choke jobs ever.

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Re: 2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty
« Reply #61 on: February 16, 2017, 12:29:17 PM »
Hey  now, easy on the Yankees.  :-[

Vince Young back in NFL news. My poor JETS should bring him in for a tryout.  :rollin It couldn't get worse. Oh wait, Kaepernick is looming. If that happens, I am renouncing my fandom of the JETS and will become a fan free agent.
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Offline Skeever

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Re: 2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty
« Reply #62 on: February 16, 2017, 12:29:30 PM »
Glad I checked this thread because it reminded me to cancel my NFL gamepass trial before I got charged for it later tonight. I had such Super Bowl hangover depression (Falcons fan here) that I wanted to watch the All-22.

Yeah, that didn't really make me feel any better...

Particularly such things like how on the strip-sack MR was another second away from uncorking a deep bomb to a receiver running by everyone.

Oh well. While I've kind of made my peace with it now, it does suck to have supplanted "Warriors 3-1" as the new all-time sports meme for choking.

Agreed. That Super Bowl comeback was impressive for many reasons, but as a fan of one of the Pat's biggest rivals, it was like the shot to the head to an already wounded animal. And so I've come to the realization.... my team, the Jets, will never be good. My team's rival will always be the greatest of all time. And the future looks dim for us, and great for them. And unfortunately this has been going on for 20 years now, even before Brady.

In short, there's just no reason to watch anymore. No reason to get excited. I'd switch allegiances, but psychologically, I simply can not do that in earnest. So... probably time to pick a new sport. 

Offline pogoowner

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Re: 2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty
« Reply #63 on: February 16, 2017, 01:17:03 PM »
Vince Young wasn't even a good NFL quarterback at his peak, so I can't imagine why he thinks he's capable of coming back so many years later.

Offline CableX

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Re: 2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty
« Reply #64 on: February 16, 2017, 05:57:37 PM »
Vince Young wasn't even a good NFL quarterback at his peak, so I can't imagine why he thinks he's capable of coming back so many years later.

QB era is why I guess? Agreed, guy was at best mediocre. He reeks of being lazy at the position, which didn't cut it for him back then. Nor will it especially now.
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Offline CableX

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Re: 2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty
« Reply #65 on: February 16, 2017, 06:05:25 PM »

Particularly such things like how on the strip-sack MR was another second away from uncorking a deep bomb to a receiver running by everyone.

Oh well. While I've kind of made my peace with it now, it does suck to have supplanted "Warriors 3-1" as the new all-time sports meme for choking.


You said it right Content_Sanity, another second. Guy's twitter post implies it was a done deal, and Ryan missed him. He was getting sacked as the WR broke free. No way ATL Falcons is a bigger "choke" than GSW last year. The years ATL Braves didn't win was a bigger deal IMO too.


Vince Young wasn't even a good NFL quarterback at his peak, so I can't imagine why he thinks he's capable of coming back so many years later.

QB era is why I guess? Agreed, guy was at best mediocre. He reeks of being lazy at the position, which didn't cut it for him back then. Nor will it especially now.
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Re: 2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty
« Reply #67 on: February 16, 2017, 09:23:29 PM »
In the chorus to Megadeth's Devil's Island I always catch myself fuckin up and singin it "RIKER'S ISLAND!!!"
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: 2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty
« Reply #68 on: February 16, 2017, 10:14:11 PM »

Particularly such things like how on the strip-sack MR was another second away from uncorking a deep bomb to a receiver running by everyone.

Oh well. While I've kind of made my peace with it now, it does suck to have supplanted "Warriors 3-1" as the new all-time sports meme for choking.


You said it right Content_Sanity, another second. Guy's twitter post implies it was a done deal, and Ryan missed him. He was getting sacked as the WR broke free. No way ATL Falcons is a bigger "choke" than GSW last year. The years ATL Braves didn't win was a bigger deal IMO too.

I've never thought of Golden St last year as a major choke job, at least not on the level of the Falcons last week, the '04 Yankees or '92 Oilers.  Green being a doofus and getting suspended, losing Bogut and them being a jump shooting team (meaning they will be hot and cold), was the perfect storm for the Cavs, and it still took an all-time great performance by LBJ for them to barely win the series.  While the blower of a big lead has to do a lot wrong to be on the wrong end of an epic comeback, I can't look back at the Warriors and point to a lot of things they did wrong that cost them the series, other than their shot selection in the last minute of game 7.  With the Falcons, the list is long of ways they bungled that game.

Offline TheCountOfNYC

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Re: 2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty
« Reply #69 on: February 16, 2017, 11:50:38 PM »
Revis for 6 years was deadly.  No one wanted to pass his way.