2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty

[King Postwhore]

Tomlin also had a HOF QB throughout his tenure as the HC.  Cower did not always have that top notch QB in his tenure.

[TAC]

Well, you have to look at the other variables.  Context matters.   

What you say, Stat Boy??

[mikeyd23]

Well, you have to look at the other variables.  Context matters.   

What you say, Stat Boy??

  For real.


Also - Brady hurt?!?

[Stadler]

Todd Haley gone! YESSSSSSSS

Too bad Tomlin couldn’t go with him. New OC will likely be their QB coach.

To no surprise, I back this decision 100%.

Tomlin has HUGE gaps as a coach, but the fact of the matter is this - they shouldn't fire him because unless Bill wants to bail on the Pats and come coach in Pittsburgh, they won't get a better coach than Tomlin to fill the void.

Now THAT I disagree with.  If you're talking coaches in the league right now, I'd take Sean Payton, Bruce Arians (yes, I know he retired), John Harbaugh, Mike McCarthy, and Pete Carroll over Tomlin.

Tomlin is second (to Bill) in winning percentage among active coaches. To me, winning is the only real measure of a coach. Right?

Well, I think it is, but it's not a static, absolute measure.   If you have a .600 winning percentage, but perhaps you should have had a .700 winning percentage, you suck (Andy Reid).  If you have a .600 winning percentage, but you should have had a .500 winning percentage, you're a Hall of Famer (Don Shula).   

[Stadler]

Tomlin also had a HOF QB throughout his tenure as the HC.  Cower did not always have that top notch QB in his tenure.

Let's see...

Neal O'Donnell
Mike Tomczak
Kordell Stewart
Tommy Maddox
Ben Roethlisberger (who QB'd his only Super Bowl win)

Yeah, I'd say Tomlin has a lot to answer for.

[pg1067]

Well, you have to look at the other variables.  Context matters.  I would submit that many coaches could have the same winning percentage the last 11 years in Pittsburgh if they had inherited a Super Bowl team with an All-World defense and Hall of Fame QB. 

There's no way for us to actually know that though. That's total speculation.

You mean no one's come up with a "WAR" stat for football coaches???

[TAC]

All this talk about Tomlin, BUT what the hell is so great about Sean Payton? I say he is overrated. He's had a HOF QB.

According to Pro Football Reference, since Payton and Brees have been together (the 2006 season), not counting the 2012 season when Payton was suspended:

Payton has only made the playoffs in 6 out of 11 seasons and has a 105-75 which averages out to a 9 (9.5) - 7 (6.8) season average.

Is it me or is that very average? In fact, taking the QB in account, I'd actually say it's pretty poor.

[sylvan]

Okay, I've lived in Jacksonville my whole life. I've been a Jags fan since '95. That being said, I find it SUPER FUCKING STRANGE to see people post things like "I'm rooting for the Jags this weekend," or "It would be cool to see the Jags make the Super Bowl, they're really exciting." I know first hand how they've been THE laughing stock of the league, while other teams put up winless seasons! I can't say I really had any expectations of this, how could I? It's one thing to hope, that's natural as a fan. I haven't been as EMOTIONALLY INVESTED in a Jags game the way I was on Sunday in a VERY VERY LONG time. But then again, I think it's impossible to watch that defense operate without catching their infectious energy. Win or lose, it's nice to finally see that they actually CARE whether they win or lose.

[Cool Chris]

When you hear people say "I'm rooting for the Jags this weekend" what they are really saying is "FUCK THE PATRIOTS."

The Jags aren't the laughing stock of the league like the Browns, or the 'Aints from years ago. The Jags are just sort of this team that people forget exist. I consider myself a moderate NFL fan and I couldn't tell you what division they are in.

[TheCountOfNYC]

When you hear people say "I'm rooting for the Jags this weekend" what they are really saying is "FUCK THE PATRIOTS."

Pretty much this. I would argue that most people outside of the New England are sick of seeing the Patriots win. Seeing a team that wasn’t expected to be a contender this season make a run like this is exciting (like the ‘07 Giants, ‘08 Cardinals, and ‘09 Jets). Watching the same teams always win gets boring. A changing of the guard is needed to keep the sport exciting.

[KevShmev]

Well, you have to look at the other variables.  Context matters.   

What you say, Stat Boy??

Tomlin has a better winning percentage than Cowher had, but does anyone think Tomlin is doing a better job than Cowher did?

I thought we were talking active coaches?

To me, winning is what I would look at in judging a coaches performance. With Tomlin's win percentage it's a tough argument to make to fire the guy.

While I agree with the latter (I would not fire Tomlin), regarding the former, I do not think it is as simple as "Coach A is better than Coach B because he has a better record."

All this talk about Tomlin, BUT what the hell is so great about Sean Payton? I say he is overrated. He's had a HOF QB.

According to Pro Football Reference, since Payton and Brees have been together (the 2006 season), not counting the 2012 season when Payton was suspended:

Payton has only made the playoffs in 6 out of 11 seasons and has a 105-75 which averages out to a 9 (9.5) - 7 (6.8) season average.

Is it me or is that very average? In fact, taking the QB in account, I'd actually say it's pretty poor.

Payton is an outstanding offensive coordinator, but not a great head coach.  How do you have Drew Brees all those years and miss the playoffs that many times?

When you hear people say "I'm rooting for the Jags this weekend" what they are really saying is "FUCK THE PATRIOTS."

Pretty much this. I would argue that most people outside of the New England are sick of seeing the Patriots win. Seeing a team that wasn’t expected to be a contender this season make a run like this is exciting (like the ‘07 Giants, ‘08 Cardinals, and ‘09 Jets). Watching the same teams always win gets boring. A changing of the guard is needed to keep the sport exciting.

Assuming NE wins this weekend, I expect the Super Bowl ratings to drop off quite a bit.  There is already a backlash thanks to the kneeling controversy and the product turning some away, and if the Super Bowl is Patriots (a team most are tired of) vs NFC Team with no easily identifiable star, that is a disaster for the NFL.  Sure, a crap ton of people are still going to watch, but probably not as many as in years past.

[Stadler]

When you hear people say "I'm rooting for the Jags this weekend" what they are really saying is "FUCK THE PATRIOTS."

The Jags aren't the laughing stock of the league like the Browns, or the 'Aints from years ago. The Jags are just sort of this team that people forget exist. I consider myself a moderate NFL fan and I couldn't tell you what division they are in.

BOOM.  That's me exactly.

As for me, I don't think the Jags win on Sunday.  They're falling into the noob trap.  They're running their gums, and now the Patriots threw that "ohh, Tommy HURT!" chum into the water... 

My big dilemma is who I want in the NFC.   I REALLY don't want the Eagles in, but if they get in with Foles, that's at least better than fueling the "Carson Wentz is ELITE!" nonsense, and I like the Vikings, but I think they are overrated and I don't want a home team playing for the champeenship.   I may flip a coin.

[mikeyd23]

Well, I think it is, but it's not a static, absolute measure.   If you have a .600 winning percentage, but perhaps you should have had a .700 winning percentage, you suck (Andy Reid).  If you have a .600 winning percentage, but you should have had a .500 winning percentage, you're a Hall of Famer (Don Shula).

But how do you determine what a coach “should have”? All you can really go off of is what he does have.

While I agree with the latter (I would not fire Tomlin), regarding the former, I do not think it is as simple as "Coach A is better than Coach B because he has a better record."

Of course it’s not that simple, but I’d argue winning is the majority of what makes a coach great or not. What else is the goal of a NFL coach? Sure coach A might have a better group of players than coach B, but how good is coach B if he can’t make the most of those players and win dispute that?

[SystematicThought]

I like the Vikings, but I think they are overrated and I don't want a home team playing for the champeenship.

Interesting, I may be out of touch with the fanbase here in Minnesota, but I think most of us view us as being underrated and a forgotten team. We've built the team to this point and it's not like the past few seasons have all been a huge success, in fact we don't usually go very far. That's the first time I've seen someone say the Vikes are overrated. I've always thought we've had a special group, but maybe that's my Minnesota lenses fogging my view

[Stadler]

I like the Vikings, but I think they are overrated and I don't want a home team playing for the champeenship.

Interesting, I may be out of touch with the fanbase here in Minnesota, but I think most of us view us as being underrated and a forgotten team. We've built the team to this point and it's not like the past few seasons have all been a huge success, in fact we don't usually go very far. That's the first time I've seen someone say the Vikes are overrated. I've always thought we've had a special group, but maybe that's my Minnesota lenses fogging my view

It's en vogue to view yourself as an "underdog" these days.  You can't "Shock the World!" and talk about the "adversity" you've overcome if you're the clear favorite.   I think there are four coaches still in the playoffs that will sell to their teams that they are "underdogs".   

I think we're talking about being in the "Championship Game", and I don't believe the Vikes belong there.  I think NO and Atlanta are both, on paper, better teams.   Though, let's be honest, I'd be the absolute first to say "the game was played, they won, that's who deserves to be there", so I get it.  I really do.  And if you're FROM Minneapolis, you ought to be very proud of your team.  They didn't give up.

[TheCountOfNYC]

Just thought of something interesting: if the Jaguars pull off the upset of the century, we’ll be guaranteed a first time Super Bowl champion.

[CrimsonSunrise]

Also - Brady hurt?!?

  No Prob!!  Bring out Jimmy G......oh wait.....

[lordxizor]

I like the Vikings, but I think they are overrated and I don't want a home team playing for the champeenship.

Interesting, I may be out of touch with the fanbase here in Minnesota, but I think most of us view us as being underrated and a forgotten team. We've built the team to this point and it's not like the past few seasons have all been a huge success, in fact we don't usually go very far. That's the first time I've seen someone say the Vikes are overrated. I've always thought we've had a special group, but maybe that's my Minnesota lenses fogging my view

It's en vogue to view yourself as an "underdog" these days.  You can't "Shock the World!" and talk about the "adversity" you've overcome if you're the clear favorite.   I think there are four coaches still in the playoffs that will sell to their teams that they are "underdogs".   

I think we're talking about being in the "Championship Game", and I don't believe the Vikes belong there.  I think NO and Atlanta are both, on paper, better teams.   Though, let's be honest, I'd be the absolute first to say "the game was played, they won, that's who deserves to be there", so I get it.  I really do.  And if you're FROM Minneapolis, you ought to be very proud of your team.  They didn't give up.

A large chunk of sports talking head types I saw had the Vikings as the favorites to come out of the NFC. It's hard to say they were an underdog. Maybe back early in the season when Bradford went down, but not by the end. If anyone can make that claim in the NFC it's the Eagles. No one believed in them given their QB situation.

[bosk1]

I'm rooting for Pats/Vikings and am actively rooting against Jags/Eagles.  If it ends up being Jags/Eagles in the SB, I don't know who I will root for or if I will watch.

[mikeyd23]

Also - Brady hurt?!?

  No Prob!!  Bring out Jimmy G......oh wait.....

 

[RoeDent]

As a neutral from the other side of the Pond, I would quite happily watch any combination of these teams in the Super Bowl. Although I would really love to see the host team curse killed off by the Vikings. It would be cool to have two "curses" broken in consecutive years (last year being the first Bowl to go to overtime).

[kaos2900]

When you hear people say "I'm rooting for the Jags this weekend" what they are really saying is "FUCK THE PATRIOTS."

The Jags aren't the laughing stock of the league like the Browns, or the 'Aints from years ago. The Jags are just sort of this team that people forget exist. I consider myself a moderate NFL fan and I couldn't tell you what division they are in.

BOOM.  That's me exactly.

As for me, I don't think the Jags win on Sunday.  They're falling into the noob trap.  They're running their gums, and now the Patriots threw that "ohh, Tommy HURT!" chum into the water... 

My big dilemma is who I want in the NFC.   I REALLY don't want the Eagles in, but if they get in with Foles, that's at least better than fueling the "Carson Wentz is ELITE!" nonsense, and I like the Vikings, but I think they are overrated and I don't want a home team playing for the champeenship.   I may flip a coin.

Aw man Statler, I agree with you 95% of the time but I have to disagree with you here. Wentz may not be elite yet, but he will be. If Wentz was still playing they'd be my clear cut favorite to not only win the NFC but also the Super Bowl. He will be a top 3 QB in the NFL next year.

[Cool Chris]

Question for serious NFL fans, what was the last Super Bowl you didn't actively watch or have interest in? I'd say SB XLIV (Saints Colts). I was hosting a gathering, which I have done for the past 10 or so years, excepting a couple. But I can't honestly say I recall watching much of the game. Watching while hosting can be tough, but aside from that one I make an effort to watch as much of the game as I can.

[Stadler]

When you hear people say "I'm rooting for the Jags this weekend" what they are really saying is "FUCK THE PATRIOTS."

The Jags aren't the laughing stock of the league like the Browns, or the 'Aints from years ago. The Jags are just sort of this team that people forget exist. I consider myself a moderate NFL fan and I couldn't tell you what division they are in.

BOOM.  That's me exactly.

As for me, I don't think the Jags win on Sunday.  They're falling into the noob trap.  They're running their gums, and now the Patriots threw that "ohh, Tommy HURT!" chum into the water... 

My big dilemma is who I want in the NFC.   I REALLY don't want the Eagles in, but if they get in with Foles, that's at least better than fueling the "Carson Wentz is ELITE!" nonsense, and I like the Vikings, but I think they are overrated and I don't want a home team playing for the champeenship.   I may flip a coin.

Aw man Statler, I agree with you 95% of the time but I have to disagree with you here. Wentz may not be elite yet, but he will be. If Wentz was still playing they'd be my clear cut favorite to not only win the NFC but also the Super Bowl. He will be a top 3 QB in the NFL next year.

I don't necessarily disagree with you.  I just want him to BECOME elite before we CALL him elite.   He's not there yet.   He's Andrew Luck right now.   Or Cam Newton.   Or Dak Prescott.   Hell, he's FOLES, if you think back.    There are a ton of QBs that come out with all the promise in the world, and show glimpses of greatness, but just can't get over the hump.   Let's let him get over the hump before we give him the prize.  That's all. 

[Stadler]

I didn't pay much attention during the Broncos-Seahawks game.

[bosk1]

That's a tough one.  Even when I don't have what I would describe as an active interest, we almost always have a social get-together that centers around the game, and I will develop an active rooting interest leading up to the game just because.  For the one you mentioned, I was a pretty active Peyton fan, so I was rooting HARD for the Colts. 

Last one, I was rooting for the Pats because history and because they finally kind of won me over after all this time.
50, I was rooting for Broncos because I like the team and because Peyton.
49, I was rooting against the Seahawks because Seahawks.
48, I was rooting for Broncos because Broncos/Peyton.  Also, I was rooting against the Seahawks because Seahawks.
47, I was rooting for 49ers because they are my team.
46, I was rooting for Giants because...well, I was rooting more against Pats.  But that matchup just frustrated me to no end because I didn't want to root for either team.
45, I was rooting for Packers because I love the Packers and didn't hate Rodgers that much.
44, see above.
43, I was rooting for Cards because...I dunno.  Cool for them to win one, I guess?  And Larry Fitzgerald is a standup guy who I felt deserved a ring.
42, see 46.
41, I was rooting for Peyton.  But I honestly don't remember watching this one and may not have.  So I guess there's the answer.  And the stretch before this wasn't very exciting for me either and gets a lot of "who cares?" when I look back at the matchups.

[gmillerdrake]

I don't necessarily disagree with you.  I just want him to BECOME elite before we CALL him elite.   He's not there yet.   He's Andrew Luck right now.   Or Cam Newton.   Or Dak Prescott.   Hell, he's FOLES, if you think back.    There are a ton of QBs that come out with all the promise in the world, and show glimpses of greatness, but just can't get over the hump.   Let's let him get over the hump before we give him the prize.  That's all.

Agree. Let's see where he's at in Five seasons.....then we can start the comparisons and what not. Right now, he just had a really good season that he didn't even finish due to injury. Was that his fault? Maybe not but the greats (Elway, Aikman, Montana, Marino) were rarely if ever hurt or missed games and they played in a tougher league.


and this could be applied to many different aspects in our culture today. Quick to proclaim 'greatness' after only a short stint of success. You have to earn it IMO and (1) good season or quarter of sales or lightning in a bottle idea or one hit song etc etc doesn't qualify

[bosk1]

I could not agree more.  Even a handful of great seasons doesn't make one "elite."  It takes sustained success.  Let's cool the jets and see.  He certainly appears to have the potential, and I'm not trying to take ANYTHING away from him.  But we just aren't there yet. 

And top 3 next year?  Hmm...not so sure.  Possible, but we have a few QBs that may have something to say about that before next year is over.  Again, let's wait and see.  We have a lot of really solid candidates likely to finish up near the top that have already been there (Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Ben, Rivers), and some other strong up-and-comers as well.  We'll see.

[gmillerdrake]

43, I was rooting for Cards because...I dunno.  Cool for them to win one, I guess?  And Larry Fitzgerald is a standup guy who I felt deserved a ring.

....and Kurt Warner leading (2) teams to SB wins. If it weren't for Anquon Bolden running the incorrect route on the goal line when they were about to score before halftime.....Cards go up 14-10 at half rather than trail 17-7. It's a different game after that. I implore you all to re-watch that interception play and watch his clearly horrible route....was supposed to be an inside slant....Warner threw it as an inside slant.....Boldin broke the route and the rest is history.

[mikeyd23]

I don't necessarily disagree with you.  I just want him to BECOME elite before we CALL him elite.   He's not there yet.   He's Andrew Luck right now.   Or Cam Newton.   Or Dak Prescott.   Hell, he's FOLES, if you think back.    There are a ton of QBs that come out with all the promise in the world, and show glimpses of greatness, but just can't get over the hump.   Let's let him get over the hump before we give him the prize.  That's all.

I totally agree Stads. We've discussed this before, I think people are FAR too quick to call QBs elite prior to a QB winning anything.

[Cool Chris]

The Seahawks over the Broncos was a horrible game in many way to watch, and I say that living in the area. But it was just me and my wife at home for that game. And I hadnt seen a local champion in a major sport (I was 3 when the Sonics won in 1979) and at this rate it might be a long time before I see another.

[bosk1]

43, I was rooting for Cards because...I dunno.  Cool for them to win one, I guess?  And Larry Fitzgerald is a standup guy who I felt deserved a ring.

....and Kurt Warner leading (2) teams to SB wins.

Oh yeah, I had forgotten about that.  But, yeah, you're right.  I was pulling for the guy--despite the fact that it was two NFC West teams that are not the 49ers.

The Seahawks over the Broncos was a horrible game in many way to watch, and I say that living in the area.

It really was.  The safety just made me angry.  And not just as a Peyton fan or as someone rooting against the Seahawks.  But just because, with the Seahawks D, you just knew it wouldn't even be close to being a game after that.

[KevShmev]

I don't necessarily disagree with you.  I just want him to BECOME elite before we CALL him elite.   He's not there yet.   He's Andrew Luck right now.   Or Cam Newton.   Or Dak Prescott.   Hell, he's FOLES, if you think back.    There are a ton of QBs that come out with all the promise in the world, and show glimpses of greatness, but just can't get over the hump.   Let's let him get over the hump before we give him the prize.  That's all.

I totally agree Stads. We've discussed this before, I think people are FAR too quick to call QBs elite prior to a QB winning anything.

I agree, but for a second year starter, Wentz was pretty awesome this year.  Had he not gotten hurt, he likely would have been the first QB since 1999 to win the MVP award in one of his first two years in the NFL. 

Having said that, the play where Wentz got hurt was not a smart play.  As a QB, you can't recklessly dive like that into the end zone.  I suspect he has figured that out already and won't be so careless again.

[El Barto]

Question for serious NFL fans, what was the last Super Bowl you didn't actively watch or have interest in? I'd say SB XLIV (Saints Colts). I was hosting a gathering, which I have done for the past 10 or so years, excepting a couple. But I can't honestly say I recall watching much of the game. Watching while hosting can be tough, but aside from that one I make an effort to watch as much of the game as I can.

I've watched almost all the SB's for the last 20 years or so. Even if it's two teams I don't care about they've usually been pretty good games. The only exceptions are if I go to a SB party, where the game is generally just background noise. If it's the Patriots I usually skip parties for that reason. Turned down an invite to [former punter] Mike Saxon's party last year, figuring the game would be one I'd really want to pay attention to. I was clearly right.

[Cool Chris]

Our parties are all sports fans, so even if the game is a dog, everyone is pretty dialed in. Now that we all have kids though, someone is always on kid duty. Last year right before the Pats scored in OT, my daughter's friend spun my kid too fast in my office chair, and she flew off and ended up in tears. I asked if she could hold tight because Pats were at the goal line.