2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty

[King Postwhore]

And yet Brady still has way more help around him than Wilson.   The Patriots are 9th in the NFL in rushing.  The Seahawks are 21st (and would be dead last if not for Wilson having over 1/3 of their rushing yards).

Both can play that game.

https://herosports.com/nfl/player-comparison/russell-wilson-vs-tom-brady

It does make for good debate.  Either way, I wouldn't be disappointed if Wilson won.  It just tickles me that Brady has more to work. I think the coaches just do a better job coaching up players here compared to other teams.

[mikeyd23]

That was my thought as well.  My reaction when the hit happened was, "That was brutal, but the guy deserved it."

That said, between Smith-Schuster's taunting and Brown yelling karma in the locker room after the game, the Steelers cannot take the moral high ground when it comes to this ugliness between them and the Bengals. Both teams should be embarrassed.

Oh no doubt, that was an ugly game from both teams.

[KevShmev]

For sure, Joe.  And that is no slight on Pete Carroll, who is in that 2nd tier of NFL coaches (Belichick IS the 1st tier), but it's a whole other level with Belichick and his staff. 

When I watch the Seahawks offense, it's like they have no identity. It is basically Wilson playing street ball and making plays left and right.  And I have been on this bandwagon since 2012.  He wowed me as a rookie and continues to wow me.  Maybe, perhaps, he will find get his due from the small group of nitwits out there who think he was merely along for the ride when they won the Super Bowl years ago, instead of being an important cog.

[King Postwhore]

Remember a year ago when we heard all the rumors of the defense complaining out Russell?  Now he is carrying them.

[El Barto]

Pete Carroll is a tier 1.b coach. Belichick is the top tier, but Carroll is still ahead of the rest of the league by a good margin.

That game was a fucking bloodbath. Unlike Gruden I really like those sorts of games when they're Cinci/Pitt.

So, no clamoring for Smith-Schuster to be suspended?

[Podaar]

I don't watch as much NFL as you guys--I'm interested and catch one or two games per weekend, but I'm more of an NCAA football fan--but I found myself watching the game last night. I was pretty surprised by the commentators running down the referees. I kinda agreed with them on a couple of calls being in the phantom foul range but I'm more used to commentators attempting to give context for the close calls (sorta as apologists for the league and the officials). Was their attitude toward the officials unusual or is this the new norm in broadcasting games. It really stood out to me.

[El Barto]

I was a bit taken aback by Sean McDonough editorializing about the refs. You expect it from the color guy, but he spent a minute badmouthing them, which seems out of place for a play by play man. He's obviously correct that nobody goes to a game to watch the referees, but I also expect that if a ref sees something on the field he should call it.

[Podaar]

Yeah, that was the moment I was referring to. I should just go back to my usual standard of turning down the audio to the point that it's barely audible.

[Stadler]

How long is his suspension?

Not long enough.

OH, and I might have missed it, but where's the thread about Andy Reid being one of the best coaches in football.   I seem to remember a LOT of talk about that about six, seven weeks ago, but now???    It is as inevitable as a shitheel tweet from Trump; a Reid defense is soft when they need to be strong, because he brought in a guy to SPECIFICALLY fill a void, and made the team markedly worse, and then when he needs the offense - led by a very good, but not great QB - to step up, he's got no timeouts and no idea how to manage a game clock and so falls short.   Yesterday's game was text book Andy Reid, and that's what you get as an outcome.   All the 5-1 starts in the world don't matter; it's how you finish.

Reid has been a head coach for now 300 games and won 60% of them.  The Chiefs current free fall is inexplicable, but it doesn't take away from what a great coach Reid has been for nearly 20 years.

That's true; there are all those Super Bow....  oh wait.    GOOD coach.  Wouldn't say "GREAT". 

[mikeyd23]

Pete Carroll is a tier 1.b coach. Belichick is the top tier, but Carroll is still ahead of the rest of the league by a good margin.

That game was a fucking bloodbath. Unlike Gruden I really like those sorts of games when they're Cinci/Pitt.

So, no clamoring for Smith-Schuster to be suspended?

I'd say he should probably sit a game for that, yeah. But who the heck knows? The NFL is so inconsistent with this stuff. The dude who decided to head bump AB in the end zone should probably get the same.

[Stadler]

Couple thoughts: 

- Officiating in terms of game calls is pretty good for the speed of the game.  Officiating for the personal foul stuff is like the NFL itself: arbitrary and random.

- Put me in the category of those that do not wish Burfict any long term harm, but isn't crying either.  I don't like thugs.  Play the game, hardnosed but like a sportsman.

- Put me in the category of those that dismiss the "Brady has more help" idea.  I'm convinced that it's not that Brady has more around him, but that Brady elevates those around him.    Look at the number of Patriots "stars" that go to other teams and fade into obscurity.   Some of it is system, I'll give you that, but that's ANY good player, otherwise you have 11 guys running around like it's multiplayer Call of Duty Zombies.    Patriots have never had a Marshawn Lynch.   Even when they've had a Jimmy Graham (Gronk), inexplably (NOT!) they have a better record when he's NOT in the lineup. 

[TAC]

- Put me in the category of those that dismiss the "Brady has more help" idea. 

I've never understood this either. He definitely has better coaching around him, but the player pool is the same other teams get to choose from. They turn over their roster just like everyone else. Up until Gilmore this past year, they almost never make big free agent splashes. They grab people from other teams and coach them up. They let them go, and they're never heard from again.

[mikeyd23]

- Put me in the category of those that dismiss the "Brady has more help" idea. 

I've never understood this either. He definitely has better coaching around him, but the player pool is the same other teams get to choose from. They turn over their roster just like everyone else. Up until Gilmore this past year, they almost never make big free agent splashes. They grab people from other teams and coach them up. They let them go, and they're never heard from again.

Agreed. I'd say Brady's big advantage over the years has been coaching and system not supporting cast. They are in the same boat as the rest of the league there, some years the support is better than others.

[Stadler]

- Put me in the category of those that dismiss the "Brady has more help" idea. 

I've never understood this either. He definitely has better coaching around him, but the player pool is the same other teams get to choose from. They turn over their roster just like everyone else. Up until Gilmore this past year, they almost never make big free agent splashes. They grab people from other teams and coach them up. They let them go, and they're never heard from again.

Agreed. I'd say Brady's big advantage over the years has been coaching and system not supporting cast. They are in the same boat as the rest of the league there, some years the support is better than others.

And yet they win, year in, year out.    Tony Romo had a stat on Sunday:  they've had 10 or more wins every season since 1784.   Amazing, really. 

[Dublagent66]

I've said this many times.  Coaching is the key.  Yes, there are really good athletes out there doing things that can't be coached, but the majority of players need good coaches in order for teams to succeed.  Good coaches find hidden talents that maybe even the players don't know they have.  Coaches mentoring players and players mentoring other players.  It's a ripple effect.


Also, LOL Bengals.  Way to finish strong at home!  Must be a coaching thing. 

- Put me in the category of those that dismiss the "Brady has more help" idea. 

I've never understood this either. He definitely has better coaching around him, but the player pool is the same other teams get to choose from. They turn over their roster just like everyone else. Up until Gilmore this past year, they almost never make big free agent splashes. They grab people from other teams and coach them up. They let them go, and they're never heard from again.

Agreed. I'd say Brady's big advantage over the years has been coaching and system not supporting cast. They are in the same boat as the rest of the league there, some years the support is better than others.

And yet they win, year in, year out.    Tony Romo had a stat on Sunday:  they've had 10 or more wins every season since 1784.   Amazing, really. 

Wow!  That's a long time!   

[v_clortho]

- Put me in the category of those that dismiss the "Brady has more help" idea. 

I've never understood this either. He definitely has better coaching around him, but the player pool is the same other teams get to choose from. They turn over their roster just like everyone else. Up until Gilmore this past year, they almost never make big free agent splashes. They grab people from other teams and coach them up. They let them go, and they're never heard from again.

Agreed. I'd say Brady's big advantage over the years has been coaching and system not supporting cast. They are in the same boat as the rest of the league there, some years the support is better than others.

And yet they win, year in, year out.    Tony Romo had a stat on Sunday:  they've had 10 or more wins every season since 1784.   Amazing, really.

That is amazing. Is that when Paul Revere was the speedy wide out and George Washington was the head coach?

[TAC]

They even overcame the embarrassing Lantern-gate scandal, where GW had a spotter in the belfry. One if by run, two if by pass.

[Stadler]

Well, clearly the British didn't make enough half-time adjustments...

[mikeyd23]

Pete Carroll is a tier 1.b coach. Belichick is the top tier, but Carroll is still ahead of the rest of the league by a good margin.

That game was a fucking bloodbath. Unlike Gruden I really like those sorts of games when they're Cinci/Pitt.

So, no clamoring for Smith-Schuster to be suspended?

I'd say he should probably sit a game for that, yeah. But who the heck knows? The NFL is so inconsistent with this stuff. The dude who decided to head bump AB in the end zone should probably get the same.

Looks like that's exactly whats happening - Smith-Schuster and Iloka both are getting one game.

[El Barto]

I didn't think there was much of a doubt it would happen, though Smith-Schuster might have deserved 2. I was just pointing it out because it took zero time for people to start clamoring for Gronk to be suspended up to the entire season.

[KevShmev]

I don't remember anyone saying he should have been suspended for the season, but Gronk's hit was worse and more dangerous (from behind across a prone player after the play vs from the front in the middle of a play).  That said, the history with Burfict and the taunting (given it the impression that it was payback) is probably why Smith-Schuster got a game.

[mikeyd23]

Yea, I'd say the Gronk thang is worse, but apparently to the NFL it's all the same. Sounds about right.

[El Barto]

I don't remember anyone saying he should have been suspended for the season, but Gronk's hit was worse and more dangerous (from behind across a prone player after the play vs from the front in the middle of a play).  That said, the history with Burfict and the taunting (given it the impression that it was payback) is probably why Smith-Schuster got a game.

Architeuthis did.

And not defending Gronk here, I agree with the suspension (random thought it may be), but I think the SS hit was worse for two reasons. One, he had a great deal of momentum working and went helmet to helmet. Gronk essentially fell on the guy. Two, Gronk's was a spur of the moment, frustration thing, and I doubt he was trying to hurt anybody. SS was very definitely trying to take Burfict's manure-filled head off. That's why I suggested he probably should have gotten 2.

[KevShmev]

And not defending Gronk here, I agree with the suspension (random thought it may be), but I think the SS hit was worse for two reasons. One, he had a great deal of momentum working and went helmet to helmet. Gronk essentially fell on the guy. Two, Gronk's was a spur of the moment, frustration thing, and I doubt he was trying to hurt anybody. SS was very definitely trying to take Burfict's manure-filled head off. That's why I suggested he probably should have gotten 2.

If I may quote a wise man...

I think your bias is showing.
 

 

[mikeyd23]

And not defending Gronk here, I agree with the suspension (random thought it may be), but I think the SS hit was worse for two reasons. One, he had a great deal of momentum working and went helmet to helmet. Gronk essentially fell on the guy. Two, Gronk's was a spur of the moment, frustration thing, and I doubt he was trying to hurt anybody. SS was very definitely trying to take Burfict's manure-filled head off. That's why I suggested he probably should have gotten 2.

Eh, I think I'd disagree. SS has shown no signs of being a dirty player, to me that's just him trying to throw a block and having it unfortunately land high. For what it's worth (which may be nothing) he said after the game he had no clue that it was VB until after the play.

That said, I think we are splitting hairs, both offenses deserved some sort of punishment and both got that.

[El Barto]

And not defending Gronk here, I agree with the suspension (random thought it may be), but I think the SS hit was worse for two reasons. One, he had a great deal of momentum working and went helmet to helmet. Gronk essentially fell on the guy. Two, Gronk's was a spur of the moment, frustration thing, and I doubt he was trying to hurt anybody. SS was very definitely trying to take Burfict's manure-filled head off. That's why I suggested he probably should have gotten 2.

If I may quote a wise man...

I think your bias is showing.
 

 

Do you disagree with my assessment?

For the record I take the Penn and Teller approach. I'm biased as all fuck but I always try my best to be fair. I think that's definitely the case with my post there. Having said that, I re-read the post I was responding to and see no reason to think you weren't behaving the same in this particular instance, so your point is duly noted.

And not defending Gronk here, I agree with the suspension (random thought it may be), but I think the SS hit was worse for two reasons. One, he had a great deal of momentum working and went helmet to helmet. Gronk essentially fell on the guy. Two, Gronk's was a spur of the moment, frustration thing, and I doubt he was trying to hurt anybody. SS was very definitely trying to take Burfict's manure-filled head off. That's why I suggested he probably should have gotten 2.

Eh, I think I'd disagree. SS has shown no signs of being a dirty player, to me that's just him trying to throw a block and having it unfortunately land high. For what it's worth (which may be nothing) he said after the game he had no clue that it was VB until after the play.

That said, I think we are splitting hairs, both offenses deserved some sort of punishment and both got that.

Once I hit post I considered that he's just some receiver, who probably has no clue how to properly throw a block. But the taunting part kind of undermines that, I think. He was trying to take his head off and celebrated when he succeeded.

[mikeyd23]

Once I hit post I considered that he's just some receiver, who probably has no clue how to properly throw a block. But the taunting part kind of undermines that, I think. He was trying to take his head off and celebrated when he succeeded.

Good point on the celebration, I think that definitely was taken into consideration. That certainly made it worse.

[KevShmev]

I don't for a second believe Smith-Schuster when he says he didn't know it was Burfict.  That is just not believable.

Do you disagree with my assessment?

I do, yes.

For the record I take the Penn and Teller approach. I'm biased as all fuck but I always try my best to be fair. I think that's definitely the case with my post there. Having said that, I re-read the post I was responding to and see no reason to think you weren't behaving the same in this particular instance, so your point is duly noted.

 

[bosk1]

It is pretty rare for me to feel like Barto's biases are getting the best of him in a post here, and that applies just as much to his posts in P/R.  I don't really see bias getting the best of him.  With all due respect, Kev, I can't say the same of many of your posts in the sports-related threads.

[King Postwhore]

This is hard to judge because the act was harsh but it came from a player with no history.  Gronk just let his frustrations get the best of him.  1 should be the suspension.  I'm guessing it will be upheld. 

[El Barto]

I'm honestly surprised, and a little disappointed that he's appealing it at all. I suppose he's hoping that his clean history gets it down to a fine, but I find that highly unlikely. Never hurts to ask, I guess. I'm pretty sure he realizes that it's warranted, though.

[TAC]

I'm honestly surprised, and a little disappointed that he's appealing it at all. I suppose he's hoping that his clean history gets it down to a fine, but I find that highly unlikely. Never hurts to ask, I guess. I'm pretty sure he realizes that it's warranted, though.

The way his contract is written it could cost him almost 3 mil (2.8ish) if he misses the game, whereas if it's reduced to a fine of say 50-100k. It's much less a question of him owning it as it is a $$ issue.

[cramx3]

It seems appeals sometimes lower the penalty so for him, I don't see why not appeal even if you know it's wrong.  It's better for the team if he doesn't miss the game so you almost have to appeal just to see what comes of it.  However, some people on talk radio here were saying they probably should have given him a 2 game suspension knowing the appeal was coming and then drop it to the 1 game.

[TAC]

It seems appeals sometimes lower the penalty so for him, I don't see why not appeal even if you know it's wrong.  It's better for the team if he doesn't miss the game so you almost have to appeal just to see what comes of it.  However, some people on talk radio here were saying they probably should have given him a 2 game suspension knowing the appeal was coming and then drop it to the 1 game.

I'll say this as a general point. Why set a penalty when a reduction is a fait accompli? It seems to happen all the time in the NFL.

[mikeyd23]

It seems appeals sometimes lower the penalty so for him, I don't see why not appeal even if you know it's wrong.  It's better for the team if he doesn't miss the game so you almost have to appeal just to see what comes of it.  However, some people on talk radio here were saying they probably should have given him a 2 game suspension knowing the appeal was coming and then drop it to the 1 game.

I'll say this as a general point. Why set a penalty when a reduction is a fait accompli? It seems to happen all the time in the NFL.

Cause the NFL needs to try to make everything as complicated as possible it seems.