Author Topic: Trump's First 100 Days  (Read 33247 times)

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Offline skydivingninja

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Re: Trump's First 100 Days
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2017, 04:05:38 PM »
There are two things about Trump's voter fraud agenda that worry me.

First, we've already seen that he is very in favor of silencing parts of the government that he disagrees with, particularly the EPA and National Parks Service. He's already trying to keep the government from confirming the existence of climate change. What's to stop him from obfuscating the results of any "investigation" he chooses to pursue, say that the investigation showed that there were millions of illegal votes, and implement voter suppression laws based on that?

Second, in a study from 2000 to 2012, there were a total of 2,068 cases of alleged election fraud across all fifty states. 10 of those cases were voter impersonation, which is what voter ID laws would stop. There were 146 million registered voters in the US in that 12-year span. So in 12 years, assuming no one tried to commit fraud twice and all of those cases of fraud were legitimate, 0.0014% of votes were fraudulent. Unless we get a future election that's even closer than Bush v. Gore, this is a nonissue. But like the Wall, Trump would spend my money to look into it. *sigh*

Offline jsbru

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Re: Trump's First 100 Days
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2017, 04:10:04 PM »
The other thing with voter ID is that poor people are more likely to move around a lot, and also from state to state.  Because they are more likely to be renters, more likely not to have long-term employment, etc.  So even if they have ID, it's from their old polling location, or old polling state, etc.  If your ID has the wrong address, you can be denied the chance to vote even though you're already registered to vote.  Or you can be forced to go to another precinct to vote and wait in line for another 2 hours.  Not to mention, a lot of poor people don't own cars, so they have to take a bus system across the city.  And a lot of them do have jobs--the kinds of jobs that fire you if you take too much time to ovte.

It's very difficult for poor people to vote.  Polling locations are usually under-staffed in urban areas.  You have to wait in line for hours.  I have first-hand experience with this.  It's very shameful, and this nation should do something to fix that...not to make it harder.
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Offline TAC

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Re: Trump's First 100 Days
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2017, 04:36:30 PM »
It's very difficult for poor people to vote.  Polling locations are usually under-staffed in urban areas.  You have to wait in line for hours.  I have first-hand experience with this.  It's very shameful, and this nation should do something to fix that...not to make it harder.

So what would you propose?
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Trump's First 100 Days
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2017, 04:39:39 PM »
There are two things about Trump's voter fraud agenda that worry me.

First, we've already seen that he is very in favor of silencing parts of the government that he disagrees with, particularly the EPA and National Parks Service. He's already trying to keep the government from confirming the existence of climate change. What's to stop him from obfuscating the results of any "investigation" he chooses to pursue, say that the investigation showed that there were millions of illegal votes, and implement voter suppression laws based on that?
I heard a few minutes about muting the EPA on ATC today, and the takeaway was that it's not at all uncommon for incoming heads to institute gag orders while they get things together. Putting a halt to press releases, blogging and whatnot is considered reasonable at the moment. But then came the problem you'd expect given the juvenile nature of the administration. This includes scientific studies and academic papers, which have always been kept separate from the political aspect for very obvious reasons (to adults, at least). So according to the head of the transition team the research won't go before peer review, but rather vetted on a case by case basis "so that the voice coming from the EPA is one that's going to reflect the new administration." That's not how science works. It is how politics work, though.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Trump's First 100 Days
« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2017, 05:22:46 PM »
Seconded XJ. Also, I find it concerning that he's trying to start a huge investigation on voter fraud. Either that's going to be a huge waste of money when he finds next to nothing, or he has ulterior motives.

Both this and The Wall are absolute wastes of money entirely for Trump's own vanity.

I can agree with the voter fraud.  However, the wall was a huge selling point for Trump.  The wall was a big voting point for lots of people so I disagree with that being for his own vanity.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Trump's First 100 Days
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2017, 06:53:22 PM »
The other thing with voter ID is that poor people are more likely to move around a lot, and also from state to state.  Because they are more likely to be renters, more likely not to have long-term employment, etc.  So even if they have ID, it's from their old polling location, or old polling state, etc.  If your ID has the wrong address, you can be denied the chance to vote even though you're already registered to vote.  Or you can be forced to go to another precinct to vote and wait in line for another 2 hours.  Not to mention, a lot of poor people don't own cars, so they have to take a bus system across the city.  And a lot of them do have jobs--the kinds of jobs that fire you if you take too much time to ovte.

It's very difficult for poor people to vote.  Polling locations are usually under-staffed in urban areas.  You have to wait in line for hours.  I have first-hand experience with this.  It's very shameful, and this nation should do something to fix that...not to make it harder.

From the age of say four to the age of say 14, my daughter never went to the same school two years in a row because we moved so much.  I had to redo licenses and what not at every stop.  I traveled for work, so I needed an up-to-date license.  In Philly, I couldn't get the cars registered (and thus I'd get booted) if it wasn't updated.  Where there's a will, there's a way, and I figured it out.   The DMVs in every state I've lived in - PA (twice), GA, NC, and CT (twice) - all had flex hours and Saturday hours.   Some you could even do by mail.  At some point, rich or poor, you have to put in the effort.  Honestly, if you don't want to vote badly enough to get your ID right, well, that's on you.   The one thing I can concede is subsidies for the IFD payment is an issue, but everything else seems to me to be rationalizations. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Trump's First 100 Days
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2017, 06:55:21 PM »
Seconded XJ. Also, I find it concerning that he's trying to start a huge investigation on voter fraud. Either that's going to be a huge waste of money when he finds next to nothing, or he has ulterior motives.

Both this and The Wall are absolute wastes of money entirely for Trump's own vanity.

Welcome to government by emotion.  Twisted, messed-up, pathological emotion.

I think Cram already said this, but that's sour grapes. He promised the wall from day one, when there were 17 GOP candidates.  He was duly elected.  He's delivering on his promises.  You wouldn't be calling "closing Gitmo" a vanity project, now would you?  (And I'll avoid pointing out the obvious, that it's yet another campaign promise not kept, and nothing to do with Republicans.)

Offline pogoowner

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Re: Trump's First 100 Days
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2017, 06:57:44 PM »
The other thing with voter ID is that poor people are more likely to move around a lot, and also from state to state.  Because they are more likely to be renters, more likely not to have long-term employment, etc.  So even if they have ID, it's from their old polling location, or old polling state, etc.  If your ID has the wrong address, you can be denied the chance to vote even though you're already registered to vote.  Or you can be forced to go to another precinct to vote and wait in line for another 2 hours.  Not to mention, a lot of poor people don't own cars, so they have to take a bus system across the city.  And a lot of them do have jobs--the kinds of jobs that fire you if you take too much time to ovte.

It's very difficult for poor people to vote.  Polling locations are usually under-staffed in urban areas.  You have to wait in line for hours.  I have first-hand experience with this.  It's very shameful, and this nation should do something to fix that...not to make it harder.

From the age of say four to the age of say 14, my daughter never went to the same school two years in a row because we moved so much.  I had to redo licenses and what not at every stop.  I traveled for work, so I needed an up-to-date license.  In Philly, I couldn't get the cars registered (and thus I'd get booted) if it wasn't updated.  Where there's a will, there's a way, and I figured it out.   The DMVs in every state I've lived in - PA (twice), GA, NC, and CT (twice) - all had flex hours and Saturday hours.   Some you could even do by mail.  At some point, rich or poor, you have to put in the effort.  Honestly, if you don't want to vote badly enough to get your ID right, well, that's on you.   The one thing I can concede is subsidies for the IFD payment is an issue, but everything else seems to me to be rationalizations. 
Well of course if you truly want to vote you should put in the effort. But it doesn't NEED to be a pain in the ass to vote. Surely there are ways to make it easier, and ways that could increase voter turnout.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Trump's First 100 Days
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2017, 07:07:01 PM »
No question. But then don't make it an issue of "poor" or "minority".  Unless of course you want imply that the poor and minorities are inherently lazy, but I'm not willing to say that. 

Offline jsbru

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Re: Trump's First 100 Days
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2017, 08:19:55 PM »
It's very difficult for poor people to vote.  Polling locations are usually under-staffed in urban areas.  You have to wait in line for hours.  I have first-hand experience with this.  It's very shameful, and this nation should do something to fix that...not to make it harder.

So what would you propose?

First step is to not make it harder.

Second step is to actually fund more polling places in urban areas.

Honestly, vote by mail alleviates a lot of these problems.  Especially finding the right polling location, and solving the transportation and getting time off from work issue.  I think Washington or Oregon have gone full vote-by-mail, and it has significantly increased turnout.
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Offline TAC

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Re: Trump's First 100 Days
« Reply #45 on: January 25, 2017, 08:51:40 PM »
So what would you propose?
First step is to not make it harder.

OK. I asked you out of respect and good faith. Please, man.


Second step is to actually fund more polling places in urban areas.

I don't have any issue with that. I'm not sure what is funded. Is it a certain amount of machines per 1000 people? I know my grandmother volunteered at the polls for every election. In the city, as it were.

Honestly, vote by mail alleviates a lot of these problems.  Especially finding the right polling location, and solving the transportation and getting time off from work issue.   
How is personal validation done by mail?
As far as polling location/transportation, that sounds like an issue for big cities to figure out. My voting is at a local school. Cities should be able to figure out how to make things easier for their citizens to vote. It shouldn't be a Republican/Democrat thing, no?

As far as time off, I'd have no problem if there was a law passed that on, at least Presidential elections, that Tuesday be deemed a freebie at work. It'd have to be unpaid, and I know some may not be able to give up that day's pay, but at least they'd have the freedom to vote and not suffer ramifications at work.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Trump's First 100 Days
« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2017, 09:07:26 PM »
Of all of the stuff Trump said today, cracking down on sanctuary cities is definitely something I can get behind.

But honestly, I feel like if you want to vote, then get the necessary paperwork done. You have 4 years to do so.

Agreed.  Also, getting a photo ID should be made easier by state governments.

Offline jsbru

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Re: Trump's First 100 Days
« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2017, 09:16:26 PM »
It shouldn't be a Democrat/Republican thing, but it is.  Democrats just get more votes from populations that have a more difficult time registering (poor folk, college students that are usually away from their home state and may not be able to register in time in their school's state, etc.).  Republicans get more votes from old people, who are more likely to vote, because they already have the day off, don't have families to take care of, are less likely to be moving around every year, etc.

Therefore, Republicans are always looking to add more hurdles in registering to vote and actually voting.

As for funding more polling locations, most cities don't have the money or available space.  There's a finite number of gymnasiums and/or public space in any given neighborhood, and population density is usually higher.  On top of that, I don't really know why voting access in poor urban neighborhoods is not better, but it isn't.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Trump's First 100 Days
« Reply #48 on: January 25, 2017, 09:43:37 PM »
How is personal validation done by mail?

In WA, you sign the envelope you place your ballot in. It theoretically should match the signature on your registration card. Which makes me wonder, do I even have a voter registration card? I have voted for 20 years without any problems. Hmm...

I know voting by the internet is going to open up too many possibilities for hacking. But I am still amazed I can pay my federal taxes from my cell phone but some people have to wait in line for hours to walk in to a school gym to push some buttons in order to vote.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Trump's First 100 Days
« Reply #51 on: January 26, 2017, 12:39:44 AM »
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Offline jsbru

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Offline mikeyd23

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Re: Trump's First 100 Days
« Reply #53 on: January 26, 2017, 07:04:26 AM »
Of all of the stuff Trump said today, cracking down on sanctuary cities is definitely something I can get behind.

Agreed.

Also - I have never understood why showing a form of ID in order to vote is such an issue, like Stadler said, voting is important so put in the (minimal effort) and do your due diligence as an adult and make sure you can legally vote.

Offline cramx3

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Re: Trump's First 100 Days
« Reply #54 on: January 26, 2017, 07:35:48 AM »
Of all of the stuff Trump said today, cracking down on sanctuary cities is definitely something I can get behind.

Agreed.

Also - I have never understood why showing a form of ID in order to vote is such an issue, like Stadler said, voting is important so put in the (minimal effort) and do your due diligence as an adult and make sure you can legally vote.

+1

Offline Stadler

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Re: Trump's First 100 Days
« Reply #55 on: January 26, 2017, 07:57:22 AM »
It shouldn't be a Democrat/Republican thing, but it is.  Democrats just get more votes from populations that have a more difficult time registering (poor folk, college students that are usually away from their home state and may not be able to register in time in their school's state, etc.).  Republicans get more votes from old people, who are more likely to vote, because they already have the day off, don't have families to take care of, are less likely to be moving around every year, etc.

Which is at least in part why pesky little things like ID seem to be such a problem.   I've lived in urban settings (Atlanta, Philly) and in my experience the problem isn't on the government end.   Atlanta, churches would have "election day cookouts", and all parishoners would be invited, and they would run buses to the local polling station, and provided you were voting for the right candidate, you could get a ride.   If you weren't voting for the right candidate, well, it was a little harder.  I notice no one was really that concerned about "mobilizing the vote" when it benefited the Republican and/or white candidates.  :)   

In Philly, any non-turnout was largely apathy.  At least when I was there, the young were engaged and the mayor - African American - made sure his constituency voted.  No one really gave a shit about the suits that trained in from the burbs, but the locals were well accounted for. 

Quote
Therefore, Republicans are always looking to add more hurdles in registering to vote and actually voting.

No, not "adding" hurdles.  Asking for just a barest level of personal accountability.   

Quote
As for funding more polling locations, most cities don't have the money or available space.  There's a finite number of gymnasiums and/or public space in any given neighborhood, and population density is usually higher.  On top of that, I don't really know why voting access in poor urban neighborhoods is not better, but it isn't.

I've already said the answer.  I'm sorry it doesn't fit the narrative.  APATHY.   Put simply, a lot of people just can't be bothered.   They'll walk five blocks, and come up with ID of some sort to drink at their local, but they can't be arsed to go three block and come up with an ID to vote.   See Atlanta; do you think those pastors would put that effort in if it wasn't necessary (though there is a bit of political favor that comes of it as well). 

Offline El Barto

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Re: Trump's First 100 Days
« Reply #56 on: January 26, 2017, 08:18:13 AM »
Of all of the stuff Trump said today, cracking down on sanctuary cities is definitely something I can get behind.

Agreed.

Also - I have never understood why showing a form of ID in order to vote is such an issue, like Stadler said, voting is important so put in the (minimal effort) and do your due diligence as an adult and make sure you can legally vote.
Getting an ID has never been an issue for me. I've got a driver's license and a passport. I've been a worker, a traveler and a driver for 35+ years. At the same time I have no problem understanding that there are plenty of people with vastly different situations than mine. A little old lady who hasn't had to driver for 20 years. A broke-dick family of 5 with far more pressing concerns than to spend money and time replacing an unneeded driver's license. A college student with the same issues. Just because most of us have no problem in this regard, it's foolish arrogance to apply that reality to others. Moreover, even if it only affects .01% of the voting public, that's still too much for a hurdle that serves no purpose.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Trump's First 100 Days
« Reply #57 on: January 26, 2017, 08:31:26 AM »
Just because most of us have no problem in this regard, it's foolish arrogance to apply that reality to others. Moreover, even if it only affects .01% of the voting public, that's still too much for a hurdle that serves no purpose.
This, FFS. 

State after state, Republican legislatures have passed "Voter fraud prevention" laws placing more restrictions that have no effect whatsoever on groups that generally lean Republican, and have large effects on groups that lean Democrat.  It's about suppressing the vote, it's not about protecting against voter fraud, because statistically speaking, individual voter fraud pretty much doesn't happen.  It's not a thing that needs to be legislated against.  It's a red herring that Republican legislatures came up with to limit the number of people voting Democrat.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Trump's First 100 Days
« Reply #58 on: January 26, 2017, 08:33:18 AM »
Of all of the stuff Trump said today, cracking down on sanctuary cities is definitely something I can get behind.

Agreed.

Also - I have never understood why showing a form of ID in order to vote is such an issue, like Stadler said, voting is important so put in the (minimal effort) and do your due diligence as an adult and make sure you can legally vote.
Getting an ID has never been an issue for me. I've got a driver's license and a passport. I've been a worker, a traveler and a driver for 35+ years. At the same time I have no problem understanding that there are plenty of people with vastly different situations than mine. A little old lady who hasn't had to driver for 20 years. A broke-dick family of 5 with far more pressing concerns than to spend money and time replacing an unneeded driver's license. A college student with the same issues. Just because most of us have no problem in this regard, it's foolish arrogance to apply that reality to others. Moreover, even if it only affects .01% of the voting public, that's still too much for a hurdle that serves no purpose.

I understand that.  But when we're talking about ".01% of the pop can't get an ID" as compared to 40% of the population HAS an ID and just doesn't give a shit, I'm really having a hard time with this.  We don't have any problem inconveniencing whole number percentages of people when it comes to pet projects like "healthcare", we don't have any problem inconveniencing people when it comes to other rights, I don't know why here there is a "zero tolerance" attitude to ANY administration related to voting. 

The only thing I will say is, wherever we draw the line, it has to be the same everywhere.  We can't demand PASSPORTS in Oklahoma, but accept pinkie swears that that's who you are in California. 

Offline mikeyd23

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Re: Trump's First 100 Days
« Reply #59 on: January 26, 2017, 08:36:19 AM »
Getting an ID has never been an issue for me. I've got a driver's license and a passport. I've been a worker, a traveler and a driver for 35+ years. At the same time I have no problem understanding that there are plenty of people with vastly different situations than mine. A little old lady who hasn't had to driver for 20 years. A broke-dick family of 5 with far more pressing concerns than to spend money and time replacing an unneeded driver's license. A college student with the same issues. Just because most of us have no problem in this regard, it's foolish arrogance to apply that reality to others. Moreover, even if it only affects .01% of the voting public, that's still too much for a hurdle that serves no purpose.

I get what you are saying, but I think the part in which we diverge is when you refer to this idea as a "hurdle". I see it as meeting a bare minimum requirement. There are a lot of ways, even the folks you described could get some form of legal, photo ID (which by the way are the only requirements I would enforce, legal, photo, and ID as long as it is all of those you are good to go).

People that don't drive can get a non-driver ID card from any DMV (I think they still do these), they cost like $20 and last like 6 years. College students nowadays have student photo IDs, etc... I'd be fine with accepting all these sorts of things.

I'm not trying to apply my reality to others, I'm not being arrogant, I'm not trying to suppress people from voting... I'm merely saying that a legal, citizen of the US in 2017 can easily accomplish this task, one way or the other, if voting is at all important to them.

I've already said the answer.  I'm sorry it doesn't fit the narrative.  APATHY.   Put simply, a lot of people just can't be bothered.   They'll walk five blocks, and come up with ID of some sort to drink at their local, but they can't be arsed to go three block and come up with an ID to vote.   See Atlanta; do you think those pastors would put that effort in if it wasn't necessary (though there is a bit of political favor that comes of it as well). 

This basically.

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Re: Trump's First 100 Days
« Reply #60 on: January 26, 2017, 08:38:22 AM »
Of all of the stuff Trump said today, cracking down on sanctuary cities is definitely something I can get behind.

Agreed.

Also - I have never understood why showing a form of ID in order to vote is such an issue, like Stadler said, voting is important so put in the (minimal effort) and do your due diligence as an adult and make sure you can legally vote.
Getting an ID has never been an issue for me. I've got a driver's license and a passport. I've been a worker, a traveler and a driver for 35+ years. At the same time I have no problem understanding that there are plenty of people with vastly different situations than mine. A little old lady who hasn't had to driver for 20 years. A broke-dick family of 5 with far more pressing concerns than to spend money and time replacing an unneeded driver's license. A college student with the same issues. Just because most of us have no problem in this regard, it's foolish arrogance to apply that reality to others. Moreover, even if it only affects .01% of the voting public, that's still too much for a hurdle that serves no purpose.

So knowing the requirements to vote, there isn't enough time to figure out what is needed to get the proper form of ID?  I understand it's not a given that everyone has a driver's license, but is it that hard to go to the DMV and get a state ID?  The little old lady can't ask her children or who ever is overseeing her to give her a ride to the DMV (if she lives on her own then I am sure she is able to figure this stuff out after living a life in the US, if she is in care of someone then that someone can make sure the elder is prepared)?  College students have no excuse, it's all over any college campus and the college will have ways for you to be registered to vote.   Someone mentioned you have 4 years to figure this out, that's more than enough time for anyone with a handicap to getting an ID to figure things out.

Just because most of us have no problem in this regard, it's foolish arrogance to apply that reality to others. Moreover, even if it only affects .01% of the voting public, that's still too much for a hurdle that serves no purpose.
This, FFS. 

State after state, Republican legislatures have passed "Voter fraud prevention" laws placing more restrictions that have no effect whatsoever on groups that generally lean Republican, and have large effects on groups that lean Democrat.  It's about suppressing the vote, it's not about protecting against voter fraud, because statistically speaking, individual voter fraud pretty much doesn't happen.  It's not a thing that needs to be legislated against.  It's a red herring that Republican legislatures came up with to limit the number of people voting Democrat.

As a mod I would have thought you could leave the "FFS" part out of this since there's plenty of good conversation about this topic.  Your opinion isn't a fact.  Yes the Republicans have pushed this agenda because it mostly makes sense to have a form of ID to prove you are an American voting for the POTUS, you can spin that to make it an agenda to keep the poor from voting, but that's not how everyone sees it (and I am not denying that some might agree with you and want it that way).

Offline mikeyd23

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Re: Trump's First 100 Days
« Reply #61 on: January 26, 2017, 08:46:41 AM »
As a mod I would have thought you could leave the "FFS" part out of this since there's plenty of good conversation about this topic.  Your opinion isn't a fact.  Yes the Republicans have pushed this agenda because it mostly makes sense to have a form of ID to prove you are an American voting for the POTUS, you can spin that to make it an agenda to keep the poor from voting, but that's not how everyone sees it (and I am not denying that some might agree with you and want it that way).

Exactly, this is falling into Republicans = evil and bad because they are Republicans territory.

So knowing the requirements to vote, there isn't enough time to figure out what is needed to get the proper form of ID?  I understand it's not a given that everyone has a driver's license, but is it that hard to go to the DMV and get a state ID?  The little old lady can't ask her children or who ever is overseeing her to give her a ride to the DMV (if she lives on her own then I am sure she is able to figure this stuff out after living a life in the US, if she is in care of someone then that someone can make sure the elder is prepared)?  College students have no excuse, it's all over any college campus and the college will have ways for you to be registered to vote.   Someone mentioned you have 4 years to figure this out, that's more than enough time for anyone with a handicap to getting an ID to figure things out.

Good point on the college students here.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Trump's First 100 Days
« Reply #62 on: January 26, 2017, 08:51:34 AM »
But it IS an agenda.  There is no NEED for it, like I said it's used as a red herring.  There's never been a need for it before.  And it's easy to get other conservatives behind something like this because they often don't see how some of these laws could possibly be a burden or a hurdle for anyone, because it isn't one for THEM.  Of COURSE it makes sense.

Like in any other con, just follow the money.  See who really benefits and who really is burdened.  In every state this has been done, it's been done by Republican legislatures, for the very reason that the people most affected are people who historically vote Democrat, not Republican.

Remember, individual voter fraud is not really a thing.  Statistically, it doesn't really happen.  It certainly isn't a problem needing new regulations.  Funny how Republicans (generally) want little if any regulation on guns but now think that voter fraud is something worthy of regulation.

And I believe that if every minority/poor voter out there goes and gets the proper documentation for all of these ridiculous laws, then Republican legislatures will try to think up some new way to try to suppress the vote.

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Offline El Barto

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Re: Trump's First 100 Days
« Reply #63 on: January 26, 2017, 08:53:09 AM »
Of all of the stuff Trump said today, cracking down on sanctuary cities is definitely something I can get behind.

Agreed.

Also - I have never understood why showing a form of ID in order to vote is such an issue, like Stadler said, voting is important so put in the (minimal effort) and do your due diligence as an adult and make sure you can legally vote.
Getting an ID has never been an issue for me. I've got a driver's license and a passport. I've been a worker, a traveler and a driver for 35+ years. At the same time I have no problem understanding that there are plenty of people with vastly different situations than mine. A little old lady who hasn't had to driver for 20 years. A broke-dick family of 5 with far more pressing concerns than to spend money and time replacing an unneeded driver's license. A college student with the same issues. Just because most of us have no problem in this regard, it's foolish arrogance to apply that reality to others. Moreover, even if it only affects .01% of the voting public, that's still too much for a hurdle that serves no purpose.

I understand that.  But when we're talking about ".01% of the pop can't get an ID" as compared to 40% of the population HAS an ID and just doesn't give a shit, I'm really having a hard time with this.  We don't have any problem inconveniencing whole number percentages of people when it comes to pet projects like "healthcare", we don't have any problem inconveniencing people when it comes to other rights, I don't know why here there is a "zero tolerance" attitude to ANY administration related to voting. 

The only thing I will say is, wherever we draw the line, it has to be the same everywhere.  We can't demand PASSPORTS in Oklahoma, but accept pinkie swears that that's who you are in California.
But where's the compelling interest? There are a finite number of eligible voters. If there are 7,263 voters in your precinct, and it shows up with 8,349 votes for Hillary, you think they're going to fly? At best you can vote for somebody else, but that's already very highly unlikely and easily detectable.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Trump's First 100 Days
« Reply #64 on: January 26, 2017, 08:53:54 AM »
Also, what about the homeless? Do they have a right to vote? Do they simply fall into the "they could do it if they really wanted to" category?
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Trump's First 100 Days
« Reply #65 on: January 26, 2017, 09:04:33 AM »
This, FFS. 

State after state, Republican legislatures have passed "Voter fraud prevention" laws placing more restrictions that have no effect whatsoever on groups that generally lean Republican, and have large effects on groups that lean Democrat.  It's about suppressing the vote, it's not about protecting against voter fraud, because statistically speaking, individual voter fraud pretty much doesn't happen.  It's not a thing that needs to be legislated against.  It's a red herring that Republican legislatures came up with to limit the number of people voting Democrat.

As a mod I would have thought you could leave the "FFS" part out of this since there's plenty of good conversation about this topic.  Your opinion isn't a fact.  Yes the Republicans have pushed this agenda because it mostly makes sense to have a form of ID to prove you are an American voting for the POTUS, you can spin that to make it an agenda to keep the poor from voting, but that's not how everyone sees it (and I am not denying that some might agree with you and want it that way).

Good post, and I would add that while there ARE "Republicans" that are pushing their agenda with an eye on the vote, not all are, and I feel that the Dems are doing the same things in the opposite direction.   SOME Republicans are going too far, and hoping the turnout is less, but some Dems are going too far in the OTHER direction, and there needs to be some middle ground.   Getting an ID of some form or fashion is an acceptable middle ground in hundreds of other situations, I don't know why it's not here.   

If it makes those that are physically incapable of not reducing everything to a "Republican/Democrat" issue (or "Bad Guy/Good Guy", si vous plais) why not have the same standards for SNAP benefits or the like?  You DO have to prove who you are to receive welfare, but "driver's license" isn't the only way.   I am no SNAP expert, but I'm pretty sure every method to verify identity that works for SNAP would work for voting, except the "collateral contact" method (where the agency contacts someone who knows you and they confirm your identity; though even that could work, if we use mail in ballots or early balloting procedures).   

I can't speak for anyone else, but the point for me isn't to game the results.  It's to have a modicum of responsibility and accountability by ALL participants in the system. 

Offline El Barto

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Re: Trump's First 100 Days
« Reply #66 on: January 26, 2017, 09:09:25 AM »
I'm just baffled that people actually believe this is something other than an attempt to remove a tiny amount of likely democrat voters. Since when is anybody here this idealistic?
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Re: Trump's First 100 Days
« Reply #67 on: January 26, 2017, 09:12:38 AM »
I can't speak for anyone else, but the point for me isn't to game the results.  It's to have a modicum of responsibility and accountability by ALL participants in the system.

Agreed.  And it should end doubts about some voter fraud.  I know it won't but it should help end some of this discussion.

I'm just baffled that people actually believe this is something other than an attempt to remove a tiny amount of likely democrat voters. Since when is anybody here this idealistic?

I think Stadler and I both agreed that some people will use this as attempt to do so, but that is far from the only logical reasoning for it.  To me, voting should be like any other form of communication we have with our government, it usually begins with proving who you are. 

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Re: Trump's First 100 Days
« Reply #68 on: January 26, 2017, 09:19:24 AM »
Sorry guys, as some of you know I'm Mexican and I've been very aware of the news with Donald Trump and everything that's been going on.

How the crap was this guy elected?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/26/donald-trump-torture-absolutely-works-says-us-president-in-first-television-interview
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Trump's First 100 Days
« Reply #69 on: January 26, 2017, 09:23:08 AM »
I can't speak for anyone else, but the point for me isn't to game the results.  It's to have a modicum of responsibility and accountability by ALL participants in the system.

Agreed.  And it should end doubts about some voter fraud.  I know it won't but it should help end some of this discussion.

I'm just baffled that people actually believe this is something other than an attempt to remove a tiny amount of likely democrat voters. Since when is anybody here this idealistic?

I think Stadler and I both agreed that some people will use this as attempt to do so, but that is far from the only logical reasoning for it.  To me, voting should be like any other form of communication we have with our government, it usually begins with proving who you are.

Yeah, this is not at all about minimizing the number of democrat voters, and I don't know that it's "idealistic", though I can't really answer that one.  It's like answering "do you think you're funny?" ;)

I think it's more about the integrity of the system.  Not whether "there is or is not voter fraud" per se (one could argue that there's not voter fraud BECAUSE of controls like these), but whether moving forward it becomes more prevalent.  I think there's a level of engagement as well.   We are ostensibly a government of the people for the people and by the people.  Doesn't it seem a little incongruous that someone might want to reap the benefits of government (here, by availing themselves of the right to vote) but are unwilling to offer any concession to that government? 

What say you about this:   no ID, just a machine on every streetcorner (or maybe we have ATMs serve multiple functions), and you put a thumb print down.  If that thumb isn't already in the system, you get a vote.   If the thumb has already voted, no dice.   (or retinal scan, or semen sample, whatever, I say to the smart ass that asks "what if you have no hands")?  Votes can be sent in in absentia, with a thumbprint and a check box.